Post 9qVTfSYanpRK6okVCi by IceWolf@meow.social
(DIR) More posts by IceWolf@meow.social
(DIR) Post #9qVSBve1zUnvgIeDIG by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-30T19:32:12.588524Z
2 likes, 3 repeats
While the Borg were the among the best threats in Star Trek.At least in the parallel world where some incompetent excuse for a writer gave them a 'queen'.(Yes, that ruined them just on its own, completely independent of Voyager.)They would have been better if they'd been more ambiguous. If Picard's breaking down crying had come from a deep longing to be back, even though he opposed what they stood for, but found something deeply attractive in the sharing of mind and emotion, being able to perceive through alien senses and borrow and conceptually explore alternate ways of thinking or something of that matter. An actual /mental link/ not just…being passive hardware.
(DIR) Post #9qVTfLzHEDcpjYBDKC by bootjack@cybre.space
2019-12-30T22:51:48Z
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@azure they touched on that in Dollhouse, how seductive it might be to become part of a collective. i agree that it's a missed opportunity in Trek, but they've got a long history of assuming that any augmentation would be distasteful to their audience.
(DIR) Post #9qVTfPOCa0LUHirf5k by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-30T23:12:50Z
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@bootjack @azure @IceWolf we've seen it analyzed in terms of consensuality before, in (of all things) an epic length and surprisingly not terrible trek/star wars crossover fic by charles sfdebris one of whose later plot points is the reincorporation of the borg as a wholly voluntary (and much smaller) organization whose joiners tend to want to stay longer than they initially intended because, in a consensual context, it's a wonderful and frequently very healing experience
(DIR) Post #9qVTfSYanpRK6okVCi by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-30T23:17:42Z
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@alexis @bootjack @azure Hm, yeah... I think if it were completely consensual, it would be a lot less Nope....I still wouldn't find it entirely OK, though, unless I could come out of it unchanged*, still myself.(*except for memories of the experience, of course)
(DIR) Post #9qVTfVCixajIJrXa2C by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-30T23:26:07Z
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@IceWolf @bootjack @azure in the fic that was guaranteed as part of the contract! and it checks out with canon, too, to the extent VOY approaches the topic (having completely forgotten the original plot point that the borg were a self-collectivized but biologically distinct *species*, and that assimilation of an individual was extremely unlike them, possibly even unprecedented, pre TBoBW)(sorry. we have Opinions On This Topic and they are 1000% salty about the waste of a promising storyline)
(DIR) Post #9qVTfWVC8P6ALRBqSm by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-30T23:31:24Z
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@alexis @bootjack @azureOh, good...Was that guaranteed by some mechanic of the process though, or just "we'll put you back like you were, we promise"?Because if it's just "we'll put you back"...that's...still really disturbing. :/ [That gets into my problems with copying, e.g. copy-wipe teleportation.]
(DIR) Post #9qVTfXd1wkxbq1rcJc by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-30T23:45:24Z
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@IceWolf @bootjack @azure sort of both? guaranteed in the latter sense by the contract (and the strong concern for reputation as "not terrifying space locusts any more"), in the former sense by removal of all implants as part of out-processing, including those maintaining the link to the collectivefwiw, everyone we see in canon who leaves the collective remains who they were before, save for the effects of the experience, so it seems to check out to us
(DIR) Post #9qVTfYNTA66iA3ahhQ by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-30T23:45:24Z
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@IceWolf @bootjack @azure hugh and especially seven of nine somewhat notwithstanding, granted, but both are unique cases, especially the latter, with no reason to assume they're representative of what fixed-term voluntary membership would be liketbh it seems a lot less sketchy to us than the transporter!
(DIR) Post #9qVTfYolWbwRWiMVFI by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:07:10Z
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@alexis @bootjack @azure Ah, OK! I think my issue was with the process fundamentally /changing who you were/, so removing any implants wouldn't remove the changes because they're /part of who you are/ now. Sounds like that doesn't happen, which is nice.
(DIR) Post #9qVTfZMnU5ADEGHgI4 by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T00:10:10.255004Z
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@IceWolf Whether it 'fundamentally changes who you were' is sort of a matter for you after the experience and you before the experience to argue about ;)Just imagine how people might react if they ran into older versions of themselves who had undergone religious conversions, had radically changes in worldview or conviction, or undergone some other 'transformative experience'.@alexis @bootjack
(DIR) Post #9qVUb0LVqf1JPU4RBA by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:18:54Z
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@azure @bootjack @alexis Well yeah, but like... that's not like **reaching into your head and directly fiddling with who you are**. :/(I probably intellectually shouldn't be disturbed by this, but.)
(DIR) Post #9qVUb0iCUJAUXqgYXg by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T00:20:37.624617Z
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@IceWolf The closest real-world analogue to that is psychedelics. Depending on which ones, there's reason to believe that taking them, even once, has a good chance at making a consistent change to one factor of personality that is otherwise fairly stable.@bootjack @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVVCLJ4sbbZ8JjgHo by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:22:32Z
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@azure @bootjack @alexisThat is.Uh.Reallly good to know. Thanks!...
(DIR) Post #9qVVCLaRq1V20BrYMS by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T00:27:22.416861Z
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@IceWolf Specifically, some psychedelics seem to cause a durable increase in an attribute known as 'Openness to Experience' that remains years after taking them.('Openness to Experience' is how likely one is to want to try new things, consider strange ideas, try aesthetics outside of ones usual range, and covers things like curiosity, active imagination, propensity to daydream, etc.)@bootjack @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVWFSb4Kbi8ZACYIy by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:32:05Z
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@azure @bootjack @alexis Oh, huh. That is..interesting!That's also a slight bit less disturbing than I was envisioning, for some bizarre reason. I would accept being more open to experience more than I would, say, suddenly becoming an extrovert or the like. No idea why; guess I'm just a weird and inconsistent wolf. (:
(DIR) Post #9qVWFSx30tI9fKU6Yy by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T00:39:09.101764Z
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@IceWolf Ahhh.But here's where we get to the Fun Part:Frost at time t does not object to a risk of becoming more open to experience so takes some drugs. Has a wonderful time and really enjoys himself and becomes more Open.What if Frost at time t + 1, due to being more Open, finds fewer things disturbing and easier to consider without being bothered, and therefore tries a Theoretical Drug, let's say for the point of imagination, the immediate effect is vastly increasing ones cognitive empathy and being able to get a better and more profound idea of other people's feelings through observing them. But it also has a 33% chance of making one more Extroverted. Again he has a wonderful time and really enjoys himself, this time becoming more Extroverted.Having taken it, Frost at time t + 2 is now more Extroverted, an outcome that frost at time t would be upset by, but Frost at t + 1 may not mind.Does Frost at time 't' never risk taking a drug that might make him more Open and thus at higher risk of being okay with things that currently bother him, or does he say "That's Future Wolf's concern!"@bootjack @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVWhdan2mWamCVUum by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T00:44:15.345250Z
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(Wherein the fox accidentally ensures that @IceWolf will never take drugs.);)@alexis @bootjack
(DIR) Post #9qVXkFZuss7Z7YuMj2 by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:45:22Z
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@azure @bootjack @alexis You know...that...is a very good point. Huh.Yeah, I think you did just ensure I'll never take drugs. (:
(DIR) Post #9qVXkFu7fkHg8EMVDk by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:46:26Z
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@azure @bootjack @alexis ...Although honestly, I think I probably would be more on the "it's Future Wolf's concern" side.
(DIR) Post #9qVXkGAmfnbyxu9oBs by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:51:10Z
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@azure @bootjack @alexis...well.Now that I think about it...I'm really not sure. This is some deep stuff here!
(DIR) Post #9qVXkGQNjo5XkHSGVE by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:52:19Z
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@azure @bootjack @alexis And I simultaneously want to ponder this and Decide, and go run half a continent away and curl up shivering in terror. :3
(DIR) Post #9qVXkGiodGpkfS4zEe by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T00:55:54.269966Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@IceWolf My disposition toward the matter is probably somewhat shaped by having grown up in an Evangelical home and sincerely and truly believing what I was taught and intending to go into (and making the first steps of studying for) the ministry. So "Current beliefs and priorities completely opposite past beliefs and priorities." translates to "Past-me doesn't know how much fun they're going to have becoming present-me!"@bootjack @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVY3Z3OhNwJ1cuJMW by Patashu@mastodon.social
2019-12-31T00:57:46Z
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@azure @bootjack @IceWolf @alexis kinda STRUGGLING to imagine Pastor Azure atm
(DIR) Post #9qVY3ZUh3tm2OHg6uO by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T00:58:41Z
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@Patashu @azure @bootjack @alexis I...have to admit I don't know a whole lot about Christianity. :3 Is there some part of Evangelical Christianity's belief system that's relevant here?
(DIR) Post #9qVY3ZsRdalxZwn4vg by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T00:59:22.756259Z
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@IceWolf Well, in context it's just not what I believe now and very far from it.@Patashu @bootjack @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVYNt8bjimF6f2GPo by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T01:03:05.427843Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Patashu Pastor Azure makes perfect sense from the right perspective:If you believe people are at great risk of having the worst thing you can imagine start to happen to them and never stop happeningAnd there is some activity with a chance of lowering the rate at which this occursThen there's nothing else valuable to do with your time but attempt to lower the rate at which it occurs.@bootjack @IceWolf @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVYhsDOsPnq2Jo5Oy by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-30T19:35:34Z
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@azure Huh. It's really neat how we have such different takes on this! I find the whole idea /incredibly/ disturbing. :3(Not trying to say this is bad or get you to stop or anything! Just think it's interesting.)
(DIR) Post #9qVYhsZ1a16H7NvM6i by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-30T19:42:45.921619Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@IceWolf The difference in this case is the /cause/ for being disturbed.In Actual Star Trek, the Borg went around killing people and breaking their stuff. Notionally adding their technological and biological distinctiveness to the collective. Which, as far as we could tell, just meant they could go around killing people and breaking their stuff s'more. Assimilation was resource acquisition. By all accounts, the Assimilation didn't have a very good time of things. We can take Picard's reaction to imply they were essentially passive components /used by/ something external to themself.Obviously this is disturbing.A better version of the Borg could be altruistic. Deciding that it's sick and tired of people going around /dying/ and having every dream and spark of creativity lost, except for whatever frozen, petrified shards managed to be written down or built or otherwise turned into artifacts. Being assimilated is, at least in some ways, fun. If your body dies and wears out, oh well. You're spread throughout the collective. There are lots of potentially fun things to do in a collective devoted to expression and discovery.Of course there are lots of potential downsides to consider. You may be legitimately really unhappy with they idea of every thought and feeling you have being shared and accessible to /everyone/. Of the sense that you're not a discrete self, but flowing and mingling in with everyone else, spinning off different variations. You may believe in an afterlife and feel you are being denied a far better heaven.You can still be /disturbed/, of course. But it's a far better, more interesting GRADE of disturbance when you focus on the actual problems with a mass mind and not "Also it's miserable and you spend all your time killing people and breaking their stuff."
(DIR) Post #9qVZmCwbqdFDRIaFl2 by Patashu@mastodon.social
2019-12-31T01:13:51Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@azure @bootjack @IceWolf @alexis I'm immediately reminded of your recent 'conspiratorial thinking' tweet. This is exactly the same kind of all consuming 'nothing is more important thna this to think about' logic black hole
(DIR) Post #9qVZmDDGqgZWGyNYjA by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T01:18:41.596504Z
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@Patashu The /weird/ part was the brief period where I was just really mad at and disliked this 'God' person for setting up a system like that where awful things happened to so many people AND…still believed it was a true description of the universe.Which made me very upset since I knew /my/ afterlife was going to be horrible as a result.But spent a lot of effort trying to figure out how to be selective and emphasize and de-emphasize the right things when Evangelizing people so they wouldn't have the same kind of thought processes I had and end up in the same position and THEY at least could get the good afterlife.Fortunately while this mental state is somewhat miserable it's also unstable and didn't last very long ;)@bootjack @IceWolf @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVaAaVbt43FTPa2am by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-31T01:21:30Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@azure @bootjack @Patashu @IceWolf the part of us raised catholic wants to look up which heresy that isthe rest of us wants to get back to setting up our art & photography workroom before supper
(DIR) Post #9qVaoJa2FM3wYNaqwK by Patashu@mastodon.social
2019-12-31T01:28:10Z
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@azure The mirror version of this for me was getting upset with God for being able to read my thoughts and know if I'm sinning internally even if I make 0 actions based on it
(DIR) Post #9qVaoJvewxMNdRi7e4 by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T01:30:16.805976Z
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@Patashu I had never thought to be upset by that, but I can see how it has a definite feeling of UNFAIRNESS to it.(And now that I'm old and things I can't help but picture it as the Sphere from flatland looking down inside a 2D dragon shaped outline and reading what's written on the brain while making notes.)
(DIR) Post #9qVbVKTAoeG5lPtX16 by fluffy@queer.party
2019-12-31T01:35:37Z
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@azure @Patashu I saw this toot first and decided to scroll up to the top of this thread This thread Goes Places
(DIR) Post #9qVbVKpVTc7gsgLMpM by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T01:38:01.676282Z
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@fluffy And that's just how good Star Trek: The Next Generation is. Even complaining about the ways in which it sucks leads to all facets of life ;)@Patashu
(DIR) Post #9qVc85Iz88vg1gbpFw by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-31T01:09:19Z
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@azure @bootjack @Patashu @IceWolf ah, yes, roko's basilisk! (formerly known as pascal's wager, prior to the recent rebranding)
(DIR) Post #9qVc85vGpnYPwQWOvo by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T01:40:41Z
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@alexis @azure @bootjack @PatashuRebranding? Huh!Anyway, whatever it's called. I counter that with the fact that I wouldn't want to worship a God who would do things like throw you in hell for not believing in him. (:
(DIR) Post #9qVc87XwnU5Oyfcnr6 by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-31T01:43:01Z
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@IceWolf @azure @bootjack @Patashu rebranding indeed! but that's true of the "singularity" stuff as a whole; it is semiotically indistinguishable from the christian apocalypse and millennium, with only the names changed for the comfort of an audience that earnestly, if risibly, believes itself to be 200% secular
(DIR) Post #9qVc89AGmUKnzoYvE8 by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T01:45:01.728431Z
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@alexis I count 'that time humanity got domesticated by grass' as a 'singularity' in the sense of a technological change that makes history afterward unpredictable from the standpoint of people before the change ;)…but I might just be weird.@IceWolf @bootjack @Patashu
(DIR) Post #9qVdMOfa1x545mZAno by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T01:47:44Z
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@azure @bootjack @Patashu @alexis So that's what a singularity is? Huh, thanks....How do historical singularities apply to Pascal's Wager / Roko's Basilisk?
(DIR) Post #9qVdMP1uguwfD310c4 by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T01:58:50.031338Z
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@IceWolf There are many things people have used 'the singularity' to mean and in its original sense it simply means 'a historical event that causes a change of conditions so radical you can't make meaningful predictions across it' or perhaps 'things change so quickly any plausible predictions you make will have increasingly short range'It has /also/ come to mean, among some people, 'That time when some AI will take over and run everything'. They want very much for this to happen and also for it to be benevolent. This is rather unfortunate and relies on a lot of assumptions that don't hold up, like hard take-off. But it has the added problem of being basically monarchical. Of having THE AGENT who will take over and in that sense the main difference between it and The Kingdom of God is that you didn't /build/ God.There is a reason for 'Socialist Transhumanism: No Gods, No Master Computers!' in my bio ;)Someone named Roko conceived of a thought experiment where a future benevolent all-powerful AI might decide to torment people who knew enough that they might have helped it come into existence but didn't, in order to incentivize people to ensure it came into existence. This was never anything many people believed or put much credit in and is basically someone's thought experiment on a web forum. There are rumors that some people felt strong anxiety about it, but I don't know the degree to which it is true. It tends to get a lot of "LOOK AT WHAT THOSE WEIRD PEOPLE BELIEVE!!!!!" Coverage.It sort of fails off the bat because it assumes that someone who is both consequentialist and presumably smarter than you or I and also not completely ignorant about the basics of research into behavioral science would decide that an unlikely threat of intense punishment in the far future would be a useful way to motivate someone from a species that has a problem being motivated by the relatively near-term and obvious deterioration brought on by junk food, smoking, and lack of exercise.@bootjack @Patashu @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVdT1buA9LkbP0XdQ by bootjack@cybre.space
2019-12-31T01:56:15Z
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@azure @IceWolf @alexis thanks for bringing me along on this thread. i'm having trouble finding something to contribute but i wanted to make a little cul de sac here because i'm extremely interested in neuroplasticity and things like exocortices and commonplace books that afford the export of understanding so that a future self might access it. (accelerando is full of CWable problematic american dude thoughts but is otherwise a great story about minds and technology, and it's public domain)
(DIR) Post #9qVdp1CuLHorirnq2i by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T02:02:21Z
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@azure @bootjack @Patashu @alexis Oh, okay!Huh. Never heard of Roko's thing...all of this Singularitarian Christianity stuff makes a whole lot more sense now. (:
(DIR) Post #9qVdp1TZLL9AYXb90q by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T02:04:00.630486Z
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@IceWolf You've never heard of Roko's thing because it's inconsequential and never had much presence among the community that's supposed to have embraced it.It's a specific example of the fact that the weird things Everybody Knows about subcultures they're not part of tend not to be representative.(Like, look at early representatives of furries in media when media was just discovering they exist.)@bootjack @Patashu @alexis
(DIR) Post #9qVdq2O5RJC9fmW9iK by bootjack@cybre.space
2019-12-31T02:03:02Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@azure @Patashu @IceWolf @alexis (NB: there's an intermediate step where it has meant, practically, the moment in history when a human brain is first simulated completely, because the next moment we simulate something faster, or bigger, or otherwise different, which is where the Dominator AI reading arises)
(DIR) Post #9qVehPxGXyU877QTS4 by bootjack@cybre.space
2019-12-31T02:05:50Z
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@azure @Patashu @IceWolf @alexis there was that funny moment when the operator of lesswrong (or something?) freaked out and forbade discussion about it.
(DIR) Post #9qVehQG3Q7Vv3ODTjk by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-31T02:06:52Z
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@bootjack @azure @Patashu @IceWolf yep! not because it was an unproductive distraction, but under a general rule about not spreading contagious and potentially dangerous cognitohazardswhich is another reason why we don't feel bad about using it as a pin to prick singularitarians with, tbh
(DIR) Post #9qVehQXmMDgxwMVdMe by bootjack@cybre.space
2019-12-31T02:07:36Z
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@alexis @azure @Patashu @IceWolf oh, same
(DIR) Post #9qVehQprH09aqQy4Xo by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-31T02:09:00Z
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@bootjack @azure @Patashu @IceWolf (eliezer yudkowsky is an endless fount of unintentional comedy - if you don't believe us, try reading Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality some time)
(DIR) Post #9qVehRAm1EsrtIkm92 by IceWolf@meow.social
2019-12-31T02:10:56Z
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@alexis @bootjack @azure @Patashu You know, I've read some of that but forgot about it, I really should pick it up again sometime!What do you mean 'unintentional'? You mean it wasn't supposed to be hilarious? :3
(DIR) Post #9qVehRW2k9tixGhlIW by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T02:13:48.980507Z
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@IceWolf The main literary problem it suffers from is that you can only do pastiche well if you actually like and appreciate the source material.The main /didactic/ problem it suffers from is that it's more like the Sherlock TV series than the Sherlock Holmes stories. In the former the Talented Person does Talented Things in a more or less opaque way and has virtues that are described rather than shown. In the latter version (and in good mysteries generally) you're given the pieces so you could, in principle, put together the same ideas the character has.@alexis @bootjack @Patashu
(DIR) Post #9qVenfqyLjzf9xSvVg by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T02:14:59.101137Z
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@IceWolf But it has some nice bits and some pieces of intentional comedy, or at least I liked a few parts here and there as entertainment. I think it works better at the beginning just because you're slamming two sets of genre expectations together amusingly.@Patashu @alexis @bootjack
(DIR) Post #9qVgwky0uHE3X9DYVk by alexis@tilde.zone
2019-12-31T02:30:54Z
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@azure @bootjack @Patashu @IceWolf tbf doyle cheated outrageously in that regard himselfa big part of our thing with HPMoR is just the sheer po-facedness of it all, tbh, along with our low opinion of yudkowsky's prose style as applied to the task; he's a solid expository writer, but that style doesn't work as well for narrative fiction (although it must be said that the original is no standout in that regard)
(DIR) Post #9qVgwlB87ViYBpM1xI by azure@pleroma.site
2019-12-31T02:39:01.785466Z
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@alexis Some things just struck me as egregious. Like the "I'm going to think about Timeless Physics and suddenly Partial Transfiguration"The only reason we, the reader, have any reason to think this would work is that the author thinks Timeless Physics is cool. And, sure, it's cool. But it's right up there with Geordi LaForge announcing triumphantly that he just needs to explode the dilithium crystals into diberyllium crystals in a recitifed phase cascade in order to apply a +3 modifier to the warp field's Charisma stat so that the universe will feel socially awkward and anxious in situations involving it and not attempt to stop them from traveling at Warp 13.With perhaps the small saving grace that Timeless Physics is actually a mathematical model that exists. But it's still not the thing you have any business doing if you have didactic aspirations.@bootjack @Patashu @IceWolf