Post 9p0JpF3yrsdZ4XqwnA by bkam@refactorcamp.org
(DIR) More posts by bkam@refactorcamp.org
(DIR) Post #9ozLuPiqfdDKKTbQ3s by bkam@refactorcamp.org
2019-11-15T00:32:55Z
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Reading "Stand out of our Light," about digital distractions, which is free here https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/stand-out-of-our-light/3F8D7BA2C0FE3A7126A4D9B73A89415D
(DIR) Post #9ozLuQfh8qHlGz8Pmi by bkam@refactorcamp.org
2019-11-15T14:17:27Z
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Is this true? What about open source software? Linux? vim? cat? I'm genuinely curious. I would agree that there's a spectrum, and some tech obviously encourages certain ways of acting or thinking. But does vim? Really?
(DIR) Post #9ozLuRdbY6CwGnAGAK by kai@ajin.la
2019-11-15T14:20:21Z
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@bkam everything influences everything
(DIR) Post #9ozMGsVCLezVxWvggK by bkam@refactorcamp.org
2019-11-15T14:24:23Z
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@kai@ajin.va That's not very helpful, is it? But I guess it relates to the Buddhist idea of dependent origination.I just think that it's wrong that technology (if you include things like "pen" or "vim") determines what you think consequentially. I think they can enable certain modes of thinking. But he's arguing for something much more deterministic I think.
(DIR) Post #9ozMjQWTSDiNa38hPM by kai@ajin.la
2019-11-15T14:29:37Z
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@bkam determinism could be our reality. But if not, we're still very much influenced by our experiences and environment; how could we not be?
(DIR) Post #9ozNg1MqclgCeFZoI4 by bkam@refactorcamp.org
2019-11-15T14:40:11Z
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@kai True, but the question of determinism is irrelevant to this, and the question is not a binary one. It's not "Are we influenced by our environment and tools? Yes or no?" because the answer is obviously "Yes."It's a question of extent. What Williams seems to argue is that our thought is consequentially determined by tools. It's a stronger claim than that there is some influence. He seems to be saying that *any* technology is as consequential as the structure of a government.
(DIR) Post #9ozOoNcFt9pPvCKhu4 by bkam@refactorcamp.org
2019-11-15T14:52:54Z
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@kai The question is one of extent. Do you believe that tools strictly dictate what you do or think? That's what he seems to me to be arguing.I believe that they can enable /encourage certain types of thought or behaviour. But I don't think that technology has strong sway over you just by its existence in your environment.If it did, owning a pen would make you a writer. But pens are probably cheaper than they've ever been before, and everywhere, and (from what I've seen) fewer handwrite.
(DIR) Post #9ozQsTjHIkRXwqhSTY by kai@ajin.la
2019-11-15T15:16:04Z
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@bkam I don't think his points are unreasonable. I think that we have this illusion that we're living the life we want to live, when in reality almost everything we do is determined by our environment.
(DIR) Post #9ozdMqV8OpQSiAKaWm by bkam@refactorcamp.org
2019-11-15T17:35:59Z
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@kai I see what you're saying, and this is what the enactivists think, but I think they take it too far.It implies that you're powerless to change your environment. It's possible to move jobs, move houses, move countries, change languages, change cultures, etc. If the environment determined everything, either everyone would do that, or nobody would.It's not an illusion that you can change the environment. To pretend it is is lazy and fatalistic. I'm not saying it's easy. But it is possible.
(DIR) Post #9ozfJIZcHkMkWfrcKe by kai@ajin.la
2019-11-15T17:57:47Z
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@bkam sure, but the fact that we live our lives within these imaginary constructions is proof enough to me of their influence.
(DIR) Post #9p0JpF3yrsdZ4XqwnA by bkam@refactorcamp.org
2019-11-16T01:31:44Z
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@kai That's fair enough, I'm not saying that they have no influence, I just don't like this attitude that "no tools are neutral." It seems to indicate that tools decide what you think or how you behave.I have a notebook from 2009, in which I wrote one line, then in the last month I've nearly filled it. If the tool determined what I did, I would have filled it when I got it in 2009. The tool didn't change; I changed. The notebook is neutral enough that it isn't dictating what or when I write.