Post 9oVF412V381jiSXO2i by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
(DIR) More posts by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
(DIR) Post #9oTtlVQ3mvZifc3jF2 by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T07:19:04Z
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I saw this tweet earlier and I'm still blown away by it. Is this what most really mean when they say they are conservative? I really hope not.
(DIR) Post #9oTtlVvFuwWqEMedrk by seeker@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T07:42:22Z
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@mariel in europe the word "liberal" is used differently than in the US, is not a synonym for left or progressive, but for "free" (or libertarian).
(DIR) Post #9oTtlWMuG8e9c7aixs by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T07:49:30Z
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@seekerBut being conservative isn't the same as libertarian either. His statement doesn't make sense.
(DIR) Post #9oTtlWmmhvLYuNhOIi by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T10:09:01Z
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@mariel @seeker His statement makes sense in the context of classical American liberalism: Civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on economic freedom.
(DIR) Post #9oUQScppI2dWediRnc by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T16:15:23Z
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@StevenDouglasClassic liberalism still isn't the same as being conservative. @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oUUvnJlnF1LNht0D2 by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T17:05:25Z
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@marielTrue. Classical liberalism (to me) is only a part of 'conservatism'; a subset of what conservatism stands for and seeks to 'conserve'. Could you give a definition you agree with and adhere to, so that we can at least be on the same page with regard to terms?@seeker
(DIR) Post #9oUVkB0zxgEPM987fc by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T17:13:42Z
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@StevenDouglasSure. Conservatives have traditonal values, they don't seek change just to be progressive, they trust institutions that have been working and if these institutions have been dismantled then they seek to restore them. @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oUWuN0Qj3mW5T83rk by kbrendell@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T17:27:34Z
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@marielAs a conservative, I could agree with that definition if the word "wrongly" is inserted just before the word "dismantled" @StevenDouglas @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oUX9BafS0EB1h8xnc by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T17:30:16Z
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@kbrendellThat's fine. I put "working institutions" ahead to essentially mean the same thing. @StevenDouglas @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oUXSDeM1AJOupwZN2 by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T17:33:44Z
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@kbrendellThat's fine. I mentioned "institutions that are working" ahead to essentially mean the same thing.I'm not a very good writer... 😬 @StevenDouglas @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oUeor6S75J2CorGBU by seeker@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T18:20:09Z
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@mariel @kbrendell @StevenDouglas Very interesting debate for me (being german ...). What I take from it is a balance between liberties and institutions.And, more important, I see more and more, that europeans, who talk so much about their values, have no idea of what has been going on for the last few 100 years in the United States of America.So thanks for the debate
(DIR) Post #9oV1nVjqMJlcbIbvaC by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T23:13:43Z
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@mariel @seekerOne problem with that: Leftist brood parasites lay their values and future traditions eggs into a now grossly expanded Constitutional nest, which we later defend.Insanity.We're over 100 years into the construction of myriad 'now-traditional' progressive values/institutions which conservatives now defend as if they are 'working' - or can.The question of what is 'working' is forever moot, as leftists will argue that they all are (or will be if given enough time and money).
(DIR) Post #9oV3JtKgGunMztqSp6 by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T23:30:48Z
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@StevenDouglasIt is insanity which is why I think it's time conservatives take a long look at what is really going on. And acknowledge that an alliance with classic liberalism, libertarians, etc. is suicide. A restoration of traditional institutions that have been infected by progressive destruction is so important. @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oV4S1CX05mXfjTLm4 by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T20:33:21Z
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@seekerUnderstand the liberal argument of individual freedom/liberty is unsustainable. At some point two individuals rights are at odds, this is why you see victim mentality arise. That is the "morality" they use to justify infringing on one rights (the accused oppressor) over the freedom of another (the crowned victim). This is why it doesn't make sense to say conservatives should conserve liberalism. That would destroy conservative values. @kbrendell @StevenDouglas
(DIR) Post #9oV4SBt5GjlIobSTUO by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T23:43:23Z
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@mariel @seeker @kbrendell ALL of the Founders were staunch defenders of individual (non-collectivized based on identity) freedom and liberty. Individual rights (property and person) can be at odds with one another. That is not an argument against because we are a system of laws and courts - not persons - which guarantee those rights and govern resolution. The liberal stance on freedom/liberty is false precisely because it is NOT for each individual, but rather special classes thereof.
(DIR) Post #9oV5TL8iSHUTknsjtQ by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T23:54:55Z
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@mariel @seeker Of course - and RAZE TO THE GROUND progressive institutions made from whole cloth. Nothing to restore.And labels and classification semantics be damned. Forever. That's a decidedly leftist game that gets everyone talking past one another. Argue everything on its own merits from originally established core principles, values and institutions. THEN call it whatever you'd like.Democrats aren't democratic.Progressives aren't progressive.And what do conservatives conserve?
(DIR) Post #9oV5k99oG5VHVwPKGO by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T23:57:57Z
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@StevenDouglasI'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. Could you elaborate? @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oV5mcQmOGzIssWXSK by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-10-31T23:58:24Z
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@mariel @seeker On which part?
(DIR) Post #9oV64Uh3teMm6EfBfE by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T00:01:38Z
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@StevenDouglasThe part where I think you're referring to labels to help define beliefs. Are you saying the tactic to apply labels before defining their beliefs is a leftist tactic? @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oV68VgIAOhaJxDaXA by deighs@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T00:02:21Z
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@StevenDouglas @mariel @seeker @kbrendell great thread
(DIR) Post #9oV7DKaWwAn7JpNzFI by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T00:14:25Z
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@StevenDouglasI wasn't arguing against individual rights but the liberal view of individual rights and how conflict between the individuals is handled. @seeker @kbrendell
(DIR) Post #9oVF412V381jiSXO2i by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T01:42:22Z
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@mariel @seeker No, I'm saying it's a leftist tactic to change the very definitions of labels such that application is rendered irrelevant or meaningless.When stymied leftists resort to moving goalposts. If they don't like a law (or anything else well defined) and can't alter it by established means, they simply redefine the words used to describe it. Neo-cons/globalists do it as well to a lesser extent. Donald Trump is MY kind of conservative, but is he a 'traditional' conservative? No.
(DIR) Post #9oVJbJvoEIoPgKXoX2 by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T02:33:14Z
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@StevenDouglas Well now I'm curious how you define conservative if valuing tradition is not part of it. @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oVK2SMuy5uZfUADJ2 by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T02:38:08Z
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@StevenDouglasCould you define conservative then since you don't think valuing tradition is part of it? It would have been helpful knowing you disagreed with my definition after you asked me to define it. I would also like to be on the same page. @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oVLP2qK8dKJ7GFkBs by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T02:53:25Z
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@mariel @seeker I can only define, as Trump has, what conservative means to me (what I think worthy of preservation, alteration or abolition). The most common thread for me is preservation of the Constitution and the rule of law from a DECIDEDLY ORIGINALIST perspective. That's it. If you can't preserve that above all then not much else matters, as all else WILL GO TO SHIT. After that I'm pretty radical, albeit pragmatic, in terms of what I would tear down as cancerous versus preserve.
(DIR) Post #9oVSqrUicmGvhtMIGu by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T04:16:52Z
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@StevenDouglasDo you agree with the original tweet I posted? That conservatives are to conserve liberalism? @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oVoDS2bWY1MSioxl2 by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T08:16:16Z
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@mariel @seeker Not 'American liberalism' as stated before but undefined. The American left co-opted and corrupted the word. Rather:"Classical liberalism (to me) is only a part of 'conservatism'; a subset of what conservatism stands for and seeks to 'conserve'."It's at the core of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It's individual liberty, limited government, free markets, property rights, and the rule of law-not-men.In that context alone you're damned right I agree with it.
(DIR) Post #9oWalnpVocxVgW8vku by mariel@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T17:20:18Z
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@StevenDouglasYou correctly stated the left attempts to redefining words making them meaningless. But then you redefine conservative to exclude traditional values but insert liberalism as a subset. I appreciate your insight. I don't agree with your definitions. You have helped me understand the original tweet and what is happening to conservative values. It's given me a lot to think about. @seeker
(DIR) Post #9oWyJIcuQria3K31Tk by StevenDouglas@social.quodverum.com
2019-11-01T21:44:05Z
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@mariel @seeker The term 'traditional values' is meaningless unless and until defined. I redefined nothing by exclusion because I wasn't speaking on behalf of anyone but myself.Whose traditional values? Which traditions and going back how far? I named several, you didn't name any.The left has created and maintained many new precedents, new traditions and institutions, which I find anathema to traditional *CONSERVATIVE* values. Is it the conservative's job to conserve these? Or raze them.