Post 9nR9EeitWvLEaDdUUi by Leelaroo@mastodon.technology
(DIR) More posts by Leelaroo@mastodon.technology
(DIR) Post #9nR8QbhWUZUojO853I by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T04:17:03Z
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Are you supporting anti-fascism?See, it's really quite easy...
(DIR) Post #9nR8XUHOU1JLk0Bk6i by alexbuzzbee@fosstodon.org
2019-09-30T04:18:17Z
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@fribbledom Fascists are bad, mmkay? We literally fought a world war over this.
(DIR) Post #9nR8YjRfaCHb4AaXJY by agnieszka@misskey.io
2019-09-30T04:18:34.240Z
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@fribbledom@mastodon.social Woah I guess I'm actually a fascist after all. Thanks for clearing that up for me meusli!
(DIR) Post #9nR98Elz6DKQMY1L3Q by masterofthetiger@theres.life
2019-09-30T04:24:58Z
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@fribbledomPeople seem to call fascists whatever they want. I don't support "anti-fascism" as such. For example, President Donald Trump is not a fascist (although he is pretty crazy), but people like to call him a fascist. People use it as a smear term and neglect the real meaning.
(DIR) Post #9nR9EeitWvLEaDdUUi by Leelaroo@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T04:26:04Z
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@fribbledom yes, but I don't like the people who use that name. Because I am a grumpy bum and demand order.
(DIR) Post #9nR9IbLe1JJnH3dslk by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T04:26:49Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom I have very carefully examined the historic and current meaning of the word “fascist” and can tell you that by anything but the definitions that require the current year to be 1940, Donald Trump is a fascist.
(DIR) Post #9nRA9pxgPyY1weorDM by masterofthetiger@theres.life
2019-09-30T04:36:28Z
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@zensaiyukiHow on earth do you know if he is a fascist? What exactly is fascism then? Maybe I don't understand.@fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nRAE78UVReSMuujLs by hope@weirder.earth
2019-09-30T04:37:07Z
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@fribbledom Wooo two people to block so far
(DIR) Post #9nRAQ437o8eGGr6PMe by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T04:39:23Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom attributes of fascism:- believes the government should be run like a business- believes that corporations and the government should be unified, with most policy decisions - believes that civilians are legitimate military targets- promotes militarization of police- xenophobia and nationalism
(DIR) Post #9nRAUfDFZr5cgn21DM by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T04:40:13Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom attributes of fascism:- believes the government should be run like a business- believes that corporations and the government should be unified, with most policy decisions being driven by the needs of corporations - believes that civilians are legitimate military targets- promotes militarization of police- xenophobia and nationalism
(DIR) Post #9nRDCGJs0ZVvdybUCe by masterofthetiger@theres.life
2019-09-30T05:10:31Z
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@zensaiyukiI'd like more reference to back this up. Could you give me a good resource on fascism? @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nRDLmxe17thUBka6y by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T05:12:14Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom i just did the laziest possible thing: looked it up. read the words. if you want resources go to your local library before fascism privatises it i guess.
(DIR) Post #9nRG0tnJiPHaSceNlY by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-30T05:42:05Z
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@zensaiyuki (I would like this comment if it had substituted claims of authority with hard facts. But it seems your other posts ameliorated this.)
(DIR) Post #9nRGHrIAGxRZceAMGO by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-30T05:45:09Z
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@zensaiyuki @masterofthetiger @fribbledom @masterofthetiger @fribbledom "I have very carefully examined the historic and current meaning of the word “fascist”. If you want to know more, visit your local library" :fishthink:
(DIR) Post #9nRIUkK3hCmlgDKD0S by billstclair@kiwifarms.cc
2019-09-30T06:09:54.145360Z
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@masterofthetiger @zensaiyuki @fribbledom A fascist is anybody a communist doesn't like.To me, there is no real difference between the different brands of socialism, though if I have a choice, I'll stay as near the beginning of this list as possible. Europe has been firmly in Democratic socialism for a long time. US Democrats want to rejoin Europe. US Republicans are only a little bit behind the democrats. The US was designed as a Constitutional Republic, and I could live with that, if the domain of legislation were kept really really small.0. Anarchism - There is no state. The people are sovereign.1. Constitutional Republic - The majority can vote to require a limited domain of behavior from citizens.2. Democratic socialism - The majority can vote to require whatever they will of citizens.3. Fascism - The state allows de jure ownership of private property, but strongly controls what you are allowed to do with it, hence the state is the de facto owner of everything.4. Communism - The state owns everything. There is no private property. The people are the state's property, and will do what they are told, or be killed.
(DIR) Post #9nRJHwa8u7uLtKJ7WS by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T06:18:46Z
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@byllgrim “i know how to read” is a claim of authority now? neat.
(DIR) Post #9nRKOwGCb9s0sJsbNQ by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-09-30T06:31:14.424750Z
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@hope @fribbledom The "tolerant" people are always going out of their way to block anyone with differing opinions. Really makes you think.
(DIR) Post #9nRLMGB4BrAJjTlR0S by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-30T06:41:57Z
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@zensaiyuki not what I said
(DIR) Post #9nRM8Zfn0eJk64AlCi by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T06:50:41Z
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@byllgrim well I would dispute that by vaguely pointing to what I wrote that you are saying is a claim of authority, but then you would tell me I am claiming authority again. 🙄
(DIR) Post #9nRN2sGf3tVZz4GUD2 by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-30T07:00:52Z
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@zensaiyuki Apart from dismissing the 1940s criterion, the only thing backing up your claim was a description of how you are knowledgeable on the field. Is there any way that this does not fit an "argument from authority"?
(DIR) Post #9nRNYWzrgLS9HQVI3s by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T07:06:34Z
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@byllgrim “i carefully read the definition of fascism” is “i am knowledgable in the field” now. I mean, i guess I must be an expert if i can tell the difference between those two sentences.
(DIR) Post #9nRNwNFZZUDg09Dhk8 by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-30T07:10:54Z
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@zensaiyuki Yes, there is a way. "Appeal to authority" can arguably be interpreted in two senses:1) a strict definition where the conclusion is deemed to be causally effectuated because of an authoritie's claim (I doubt that this is the common use of the term).2) that the claims of an authority to some degreee is sufficient reason to believe a conclusion.If you insist on defining an appeal to authority in the first sense, then yes, it does not apply to what you said
(DIR) Post #9nROdZQUB2AaDUvEYK by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-30T07:18:42Z
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@zensaiyuki Reading a definition is not quite the same as "carefully examining the historical meanings". But even assuming that it is, how does that exclude the utterance from being an argument from authority?
(DIR) Post #9nRP3h4WNBAxSV6ZEG by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T07:23:24Z
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@byllgrim fun fact, mastodon isn’t debate club, and I never claimed I was an authority. I claimed that I had studied the meaning of the word fascism. this is only a real problem if you presume that you are incapable of doing the same exact thing, which is looking increasingly likely the more i talk to you.
(DIR) Post #9nRQ867NIIhwFZ6TlA by sudoLife@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T07:35:22Z
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@fribbledom what r u up to -_-
(DIR) Post #9nRRu9blik7wvenau8 by kennetmattfolk@mastodon.cloud
2019-09-30T07:55:15Z
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@fribbledom I checked out the definition, according to wikipedia: "Fascism is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe."So I don't support Facism, but I don't either support Anti-Facism, due to it's association with AntiFa, which is mainly anarchistic.
(DIR) Post #9nRSecQitU8DdgmxAe by kennetmattfolk@mastodon.cloud
2019-09-30T08:03:41Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom You only need to look at #Wikipedia to get started. @zensaiyuki Your sources are doubtfull and vague, thus your starting to look & sound like a #troll.Like with most ubrella terms like; #Facism, #Socialism, #Capitalism, #Christianity, #Islam #Feminism etc.There are a great number of sub-categories to pick from, if you want to spew hate towards said world view. Though of all these, Facism is the hardest one to se any positives in.
(DIR) Post #9nRUUVhXFy6PmZxaBk by dottorblaster@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T08:24:16Z
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@fribbledom quite surprised of "no" people. Here in Italy people find quite hard to admit they're fascists
(DIR) Post #9nRVFSLtWfSP0RDu6a by bastinat0r@machteburch.social
2019-09-30T08:31:11Z
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@fribbledom Whaaa, how could I misclick that. I am not a fascist and don't want to be one (but cant change to the right vote).
(DIR) Post #9nRWYEoQBtwST95Or2 by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T08:31:37Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom I remembered, trying to pick nonsensical bad faith arguments over semantics and lying about it is another attribute of fascists identified by Umberto Eco, who I can very much reccomend as an excellent author on the topic of fascism.
(DIR) Post #9nRWYF1tNoiX8vO9qq by masterofthetiger@theres.life
2019-09-30T08:47:23Z
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@zensaiyukiOkay. Now you seem to be implying that there is little or no difference between fascism and anti-Semitism. @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nRWlygOxLloUzt1do by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T08:49:52Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom Uberto Eco is writing about fascism here, in italian, and getting translated into english. for all I know translating it as “antisemite” was a stylistic choice of the translator
(DIR) Post #9nRWnOlPTS43g0uGfI by billstclair@kiwifarms.cc
2019-09-30T08:50:08.941115Z
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@masterofthetiger @zensaiyuki @fribbledom Well, the most famous fascists were anti-semites, but you can be a fascist without hating Jews. Strong nationalism is pretty much required, though, and this often includes bigotry toward members of other nations, or races that you consider not to be part of "your" nation.When the form asks for "race", I write in "human".
(DIR) Post #9nRWqG52DPvtc8RwKO by jordan31@fosstodon.org
2019-09-30T08:50:36Z
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@fribbledom ill have to agree with others. The term is thrown around a lot. Nope don't support them, but I also don't see every one as a fascists that antifa and others claim are.
(DIR) Post #9nRWxIcRAtiPVzQlvM by jordan31@fosstodon.org
2019-09-30T08:51:55Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom same here. I like some of his policies, more than the man himself.
(DIR) Post #9nRXG1Un3yRbuTmYgy by CarbonCatalyst@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T08:55:16Z
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@fribbledomI don't support fascism, as in totalitarian- or authoritarianism based around ethnicity, nationality, sexuality or ideology and/or the aim to expunge any group of people for those reasons, by whatever means.I also don't support people that do stupid shit, including but not limited to 'shooting themselves in the foot', especially when I'm in favor of their principles. Because of that, I don't support Antifa for instance.Am I a fascist now?Was this the question? Cuz not enough info.
(DIR) Post #9nRgyLkxzgXF4qYmYK by kodfodrasz@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T10:44:07Z
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@fribbledom https://newcriterion.com/issues/2019/10/leninthinkI guess you are too toxic to be part of my feed in the future.
(DIR) Post #9nRmEgvrWwLT9mGg52 by dustboxed727@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T11:43:06Z
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@fribbledom But it isn't that easy. There's anti-fascism, and then there's the more common anti-different-opinion-than-mine. I don't wanna judge too quickly but you seem like the latter. Yeah, I'm right leaning. I don't support fascism. But neither do I support communism. Rather, I don't support extremism at all. If you support any type of extremism you're asking to be shunned.
(DIR) Post #9nRwIV78PXxrCeznE0 by Calcifer@social.bau-ha.us
2019-09-30T13:35:48Z
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@fribbledom ehhh… be cautious with that. "No, my situation makes it unsafe to do so" is also a valid answer, and such folks need support more than just about anyoneAbusive partners, employers who will retaliate, people in cults, and similar situations is a big part of why those of us more free need to stand up to fascists and pseudo-fascists
(DIR) Post #9nRxURYxXXxDcPGk0u by elsacodelcoco@mstdn.io
2019-09-30T09:42:41Z
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@fribbledom this is how you sounded to me:"Are you supporting pro-lifers? See, it's really quite easy...1. Yes.2. No, I'm pro-death."
(DIR) Post #9nRz6ZLT9ZqeiIhcsC by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T14:07:17Z
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@kennetmattfolk Well, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make here:You don't have to be part of Antifa to be anti-fascism. You only have to be sensible and the tiniest bit of contemplative.
(DIR) Post #9nRzAkkagupvFDRqUK by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T14:08:04Z
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@bastinat0rDon't worry, the poll isn't exactly public.
(DIR) Post #9nRzNkTR201a9PcWeG by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T14:10:26Z
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@CarbonCatalyst You're almost getting it, yet still are totally missing the point eventually.I didn't write "Antifa" because I don't mean Antifa. I mean anti-fascism, which everyone with a tiny bit of grey matter should be, unless they're admitting to being an uneducated asshole. Which apparently still means 10% of the people here 😂
(DIR) Post #9nRzlguhv3bg3jnGBk by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T14:14:43Z
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@CalciferWell, I agree, but that doesn't make the suppressed any less anti-fascist in my view.
(DIR) Post #9nS02cRbn0Dp7YFqbo by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T14:17:47Z
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@kodfodraszGood riddance 😘
(DIR) Post #9nS10rd6SXgjanMGZc by billstclair@impeccable.social
2019-09-30T14:28:43.721678Z
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@fribbledom @CarbonCatalyst Good point. Antifa ARE fascists.
(DIR) Post #9nS1N76XbZc5xQjkPY by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-09-30T14:32:44.274399Z
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@fribbledom @CarbonCatalyst You should probably tone down on the name calling if you want to appear like the enlightened party in a discussion, tbh.
(DIR) Post #9nS1Pjlapai0RfBotE by CarbonCatalyst@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T14:33:10Z
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@fribbledom Since I like to think of myself as a human, I made a guess. The ideas behind the world "fascist" are not ubiquitously unique enough for everybody to know exactly what you're saying, as opposed to "quicksort" or "IEEE 802.11[alphanumeric character here]*"
(DIR) Post #9nS3URcdv17rWmNLqC by rah@social.librem.one
2019-09-30T14:56:25Z
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@fribbledom Can you explain the logic of why a person not supporting anti-fascism implies that the person is a fascist? This seems like a non sequitor.
(DIR) Post #9nS3ihkgkGopbiwG6y by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T14:58:59Z
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@tyilI'm certainly far from being (or even just feeling) enlightened, but I also don't see myself name-calling here.@CarbonCatalyst
(DIR) Post #9nS4WilHGYqlDY413Y by rah@social.librem.one
2019-09-30T15:08:01Z
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@fribbledom Can you explain the logic of why a person not supporting anti-fascism implies that the person is a fascist? This seems like a non sequitur.
(DIR) Post #9nS6c691xImv5xrkAq by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-09-30T15:31:25.941371Z
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@fribbledom @CarbonCatalyst Your behaviour in this thread doesn't really imply that you don't consider yourself a better person than whoever thinks differently from you. You can see this in the original poll you posted, with the "no" answer having to acknowledge that the person *must* be fascist for holding a different opinion than you.As for the name calling, I'm referring to "everyone with a tiny bit of grey matter should be, unless they're admitting to being an uneducated asshole". @CarbonCatalyst was being quite decent indeed elaborating his response, and you're just telling him that if he thinks that anything but just pressing the "yes" button without thinking twice makes him to be without a brain (everyone with a tiny bit of grey matter), or he's an uneducated asshole. If your intent is civilized discussion, you're certainly not doing a good job.If that is the way of the anti-fascist in general, then I can quite clearly see why @CarbonCatalyst makes the link to Antifa, since they hold the exact same stance.
(DIR) Post #9nS8gAHOivI2zCqXZ2 by CarbonCatalyst@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T15:45:56Z
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@tyil @fribbledom I think it's a miscommunication, that's all. Technically speaking @tyil is right, that was a one two punch of No-True-Scotsman and ad hominem, but no chip on my shoulder.@fribbledom could you maybe elaborate what exactly you mean by fascist, though? Because the umbrella-term isn't exactly injective.
(DIR) Post #9nS8pmwSLcGXV8dkJ6 by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T15:56:18Z
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@CarbonCatalystIndeed it seems like you misunderstood me here. Just to be clear: I'm not referring to you and I'm absolutely not suggesting you're an idiot.As you've said yourself, you're not supporting fascism. I just wanted to confirm that I'm not talking about an "Antifa" group, but merely appealing to common sense and intelligence here.But yes, I stand by my point that I consider fascists uneducated dimwits.@tyil
(DIR) Post #9nS91eM46ETULPH4lc by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T15:58:27Z
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@tyilNo, I'm saying that fascists are uneducated assholes. I'm _not_ saying that @CarbonCatalyst is, and I'm not even suggesting that questioning the poll makes you one.
(DIR) Post #9nS9FzB9TOyOz00PgG by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-09-30T16:01:04.724305Z
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@fribbledom @CarbonCatalyst Might do well to not stoop to name calling next time and just respond to honest questions with honest answers.Additionally, can you finally explain what *your* definition of a fascist is, instead of just continuing senseless name calling? The poll is worded in a way to evoke reaction by calling everyone that has a different opinion fascist by default, so the least you could do is elaborate on your stance.
(DIR) Post #9nSAUpJ0Z1wWewJxKq by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:14:54Z
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@tyilMy point is that I don't want or need to be lumped into a group called "Antifa", to be anti-fascist. Being anti fascism should be the logical consequence and natural stance of any educated human being.So the poll is really quite easy... do you consider yourself a fascist? No? Then you're naturally anti fascism. You don't need to be part of Antifa, and I think it's rather harmful media is currently trying to label everyone with a sense of decency as such.@CarbonCatalyst
(DIR) Post #9nSAcmyt5fNHlahrYe by CarbonCatalyst@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:16:23Z
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@fribbledom @tyil But what is fascism in your opinion?
(DIR) Post #9nSAtuKszyOnV49ueO by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-09-30T16:19:30.023537Z
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@fribbledom @CarbonCatalyst >Being anti fascism should be the logical consequence and natural stance of any educated human being.Perhaps to you. Luckily, freedom of thought hasn't been banned (yet) in the parts of the world I usually communicate with. Your ideal world where nobody is allowed to disagree with you is, quite frankly, quite fascist in my eyes. You say you are against fascism, but seem to be in favour of using fascist rhetoric.Hence my question to you, what do you define as fascism?
(DIR) Post #9nSB5Hk6JUT1HQNVKa by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:21:31Z
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@CarbonCatalystI guess it doesn't really matter to have the 100% accurate definition here. You could look it up on Wikipedia, but the point is that the media is using this term to label groups on both sides.I think we all agree it's doesn't have a positive connotation in the slightest, and hence it should be really, really easy to respond to this poll. You don't need to be Antifa to be anti fascism. And that's the entire point I'm trying to make here.@tyil
(DIR) Post #9nSBVcpuVgPkEKehbU by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:26:17Z
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@tyilUhm, feel free to disagree with me as much as you want?I'm not sure how hard it can be to understand?You're against fascism? Great, I'm with you, as I think most decent people are. We don't need to be labelled as a group, though, it should be common sense.You consider yourself a fascist? Great, I think you're an uneducated arse.@CarbonCatalyst
(DIR) Post #9nSBkEMTmxCYfPqzVw by jackwilliambell@rustedneuron.com
2019-09-30T16:28:22Z
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@fribbledom (1) I don't do online polls, but I am of the opinion all right-thinking people have a duty to punch Nazis. What I really am is anti-Authoritarianism of all stripes.(2) I see a lot of quibbling and sea-lioning in the responses. IMHO anyone who focuses on definitions over substance is playing the game from the Nazi side, even if they aren't full-on Fascists themselves. They have my contempt and I will never waste my time arguing with them. Especially with a block button handy.
(DIR) Post #9nSC3bzg9HAdSmQkr2 by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T16:32:26Z
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@fribbledom This doesn't seem like a very honest poll. I'm not fascist, but I can't honestly say that I'm taking deliberate actions to be be an anti-fascist or taking personal action to counter the fascist agenda. Where does this leave me?I can't help but feel this is an unreasonable polarised "if you're not with us, you're against us" statement.
(DIR) Post #9nSCSrdr6gChEaGRFo by minus@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T16:37:00Z
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@kline @fribbledom Imho, making it an "us vs them" generally isn't particularly helpful
(DIR) Post #9nSCY3INCsLYpCgpTU by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-09-30T16:37:58.293399Z
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@fribbledom I am against fascism, I am also against authoritarian leftists and all other forms of authoritarianism. if you try to control me or how I express myself we're going to have a problem.turns out, i'm mostly rejected by leftists because I'm not governable and it frightens them.
(DIR) Post #9nSCdyapbQAzyj9FhI by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:39:00Z
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@klineRead the entire thread for my reasoning.In short: I don't think "we" need to be part of a group to be anti-fascists. Just like I don't consider myself part of an "anti-murdering" group, even though I'm very much against people murdering others.It's amazing how many people find it hard to respond to this poll, when being anti fascism should be the most natural and easiest choice. How hard can it be to click "I don't consider myself an uneducated arse" 😂
(DIR) Post #9nSDDSyecuQyLhDLGa by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T16:45:25Z
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@fribbledom You're presenting it as "I have a definite stance on this" (and a polarised and emotive one at that) or "yes I'm a fascist". You have left no room for people who don't consider such a position as an important part of their political identity. I think when it comes to political statements, "pro" or "against" statements like this are very much a step beyond "I'm taking the default societal position given I'm not involved".Additionally, you keep doubling down on "anti fascist = educated" which really isn't fair, the two are completely orthogonal and trying to tie them to each other, imo, looks to be really in bad faith.I understand your position, and I'm certainly aligned to it, but the "you're anti fascist or you are a fascist, it's that simple" presses me to a strong position on something I don't consider an important part of my identity and makes me uncomfortable to answer.Bottom line: I don't identify as an "antifascist", though I still don't think fascism is right. Making me answer is such unbalanced and strong terms is bad feels.
(DIR) Post #9nSDOvBI6cPb0UaSXI by CarbonCatalyst@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:47:30Z
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@fribbledom @tyil Still pretty wishy-washy, but okay, I guess. I think I get what you're trying to say.This type of definition still wouldn't fly with, let's say, a compiler or an interpreter.
(DIR) Post #9nSDb6d3MwE7zENn84 by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:49:41Z
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@klineNo, I keep doubling down on "being educated means being anti fascism", not the other way around. That's an important distinction.
(DIR) Post #9nSDjuht42W7cKqMT2 by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T16:51:17Z
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@fribbledom I consider myself educated, but I don't consider "antifascist" to be part of my political identity. Which one is wrong?
(DIR) Post #9nSEF1oIhgpEcpgDmC by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:56:54Z
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@CarbonCatalystWe're not compilers though. You're supposed to read between the lines, otherwise this is a pretty boring poll.It was supposed to make you reflect on your stance.@tyil
(DIR) Post #9nSEMa1xs5pgmjfk36 by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T16:58:17Z
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@klineProbably neither. You're considering anti-fascism to be an active state, where I consider it to be the most natural stance.
(DIR) Post #9nSEVJOL6YBPmnIkXA by simon@weeaboo.space
2019-09-30T16:50:23.551228Z
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@fribbledom @kline As much as there is no organisation called "the fascists" there is no organization called "the antifacists".It is an idea that you can relate to. Trying to forbid antifacism is like trying to forbid "the organisation of all gay people" or "the union of murderers".All of those things are not an entity that you can forbid.
(DIR) Post #9nSEVJcAH9F4Tfln5E by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-09-30T16:59:51Z
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@simon @kline @fribbledom unfortunately, there is an organization called "antifascists" or sth very similar, which I've heard does some horrible things like setting other people's cars on fire. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with them.
(DIR) Post #9nSEk6Ltro65gmDFXk by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T17:02:30Z
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@Wolf480pl Read the entire thread, please. This is really part of the point I'm trying to make here.@simon @kline
(DIR) Post #9nSEkGPSTQswshxETg by fool@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T17:02:33Z
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@fribbledom @kline Been watching this go back and forth. It's a matter of framing, perhaps. It's to fascists' advantage to frame "anti-fascist" as a specific, organized thing you have to go out of your way to be. Makes people think that they're neither pro nor anti, which in turn gets them accustomed to the habit of thinking that fascism is something you can be neutral on once you know what it is.
(DIR) Post #9nSEpEiwAXTV6JR8bI by CarbonCatalyst@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T17:03:27Z
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@fribbledom @tyil There's people, who will only call themselves Agnostics, even they basically are atheists, once you talked to them, then there is those, that depending on the day of the week believe or don't in god(s), dependent on their disposition, and then there's and then there's believers who say they are agnostic, because they don't have absolute certainty. Yet all three might call themselves only by Agnostic. 1/2
(DIR) Post #9nSF3RtM0WHXzk5OeO by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:06:01Z
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@fribbledom I do think clicking a button saying "I am antifascist" is an active state, yes.Certainly, the choice between "I am antifascist" and "No, I am fascist" seems to make me choose between two strong positions.A number of people find this question hard, whereas you think it should be easy, from (I gather), a pretty wide spread on the spectrum of beliefs here.I've explained why I think the question is poor (and why some of the defences of the question, such as the involvement of education, are poor), but really all I can suggest to you know is rethink about why your question seems to be a struggle.While I think your question was made in good faith, the effectiveness of your question, and how it and the answers are worded are in the audiences hands to judge, and it doesn't seem to have effectively put your message across. I want to reiterate the great statement you have on your profile: "You don't have to agree with everything and everyone, but please, at least try to listen to people and their opinions". Please take on board why people have found this a challenge - even if you don't agree - and hopefully in future I and others might find it easier to buy into the different positions presented.
(DIR) Post #9nSFHlAj7YDbqU2INM by CarbonCatalyst@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T17:08:36Z
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@fribbledom @tyil In the case of fascism it's even worse, because there is two parts to the 'vector' that are undefined. The kind of fascism and the magnitude of it. I know people that think fascism died in 1945, because that only works when you try to kill and entire people, and then there's others who think fascism is what I said and yet others think it's already fascistic if anybody tells or dictates them what to do. There is some branches of Antifa that think the others are fascist.... 2/2
(DIR) Post #9nSFP0HfKjYak1jg1o by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:09:37Z
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@kline If you're going to ask that of @fribbledom I ask you consider their position, that neutrality on fascism is supportive of fascism. You're trying to kindly point out the implications of the poll's phrasing, whole I think missing the point it tried to convey: being anti-fwscist just means saying "I don't support fascism," and saying "I'm not anti-fascist" means you allow - and so, support - fascism.
(DIR) Post #9nSFQnDEu4yEmRWD2W by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T17:10:14Z
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@klineFeel free to not respond whatsoever, then. I think it's great some people are still finding it hard to respond to, because it does make them reconsider and reevaluate their own stance.It's only a poor question if you're not trying to read between the lines here.
(DIR) Post #9nSFW5siv52u85RyEq by mdszy@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T17:08:36Z
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@fool @fribbledom @kline personally, i support the idea of anti-fascism but don't necessarily agree with the tactics of or all the things that come along with being considered part of the organized group that calls themselves "anti-fascists"
(DIR) Post #9nSFW6DHgdUb9r4OHo by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T17:11:12Z
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@mdszy Again, that's _the_ point I'm trying to make here.@fool @kline
(DIR) Post #9nSFaoERy3vUq1rRdw by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:12:03Z
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@emsenn @fribbledom I think that if the positions were between "being fascist" and "being the normal state of anti fascist", then it really could be rephrased to the same effect as:Are you:* Fascist* NotI think adding in the extra has made it difficult.
(DIR) Post #9nSFem7tjqr1SwggaG by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2019-09-30T17:12:46Z
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@kline It's supposed to make it difficult for just the right people 😉@emsenn
(DIR) Post #9nSFh4lVPWuVquJK2C by fool@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T17:13:02Z
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@kline @emsenn @fribbledom The assertion is that there is no "extra."
(DIR) Post #9nSFmZOwvwU4JhNcie by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:13:51Z
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@Wolf480pl @simon @kline @fribbledom I want y'all to consider for a moment that you're debating whether or not to endorse a cause that is rumored to have set cars on fire when, by withholding support, you're aligned with a cause that routinely uses drones to bomb school buses.Think more holistically about these issues, and also consider that maybe corporate powers don't represent anti-corporate efforts accurately.
(DIR) Post #9nSG0ff8S4kLmzftI0 by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-09-30T17:16:44.192943Z
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@emsenn @kline @fribbledom Allowing different opinions to exist and actually supporting them are two very different things, though. I allow people to call me names on my own Pleroma instance, but I won't rally to support people doing that. The world isn't all black and white.
(DIR) Post #9nSG1K0oQtqyvo7ldA by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:16:50Z
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@fool @emsenn @fribbledom I mean, I get that that's his belief, but I don't agree with that assertion, because there's a big gap between where I am and where people who consider the exact phrase "antifascist" as part of their political identity, and another separate leap to those who call themselves "Antifa(cist)".With that in mind, what happens to the gap between those who proudly say "I'm antifascist" and me, who doesn't agree with fascism but don't consider it an aspect of their politics? Imo, it would be dishonest and misleading to state "I'm antifascist" - how would it undermine credibility and trust from others who consider that important and ask me "awesome, let's talk about how we've worked towards achieving that aim!".
(DIR) Post #9nSG2PG2PoqJUQlNAG by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-09-30T17:17:00Z
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@emsenn @simon @kline @fribbledom No.I'm not a consequentialist.I will consider each case separately and it isolation, without regard to group affiliation.
(DIR) Post #9nSG5qeX19zpK4rRPk by simon@weeaboo.space
2019-09-30T17:14:12.677815Z
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@Wolf480pl @kline @fribbledom There are some local groups. But I would consider them mostly Anarchist. But here comes the complexity - Anarchists are antifascists! As much as Anarchists are anti-murder like you.There are also people who call themselves patriots who do horrible things. Do you hate all patriots now?
(DIR) Post #9nSG5qwxuck2FFUA9A by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-09-30T17:17:38Z
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@simon @kline @fribbledom I do not hate patriots.I do not hate AntiFa.I do not hate fascists.I do not hate anyone.
(DIR) Post #9nSG9tjVVW7G2C7SW8 by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:18:06Z
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@Wolf480pl You just said you are hesitant to consider the group because of the actions of those affiliated with it are you kidding me?@simon @kline @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSGE8nVRKaJul0rlQ by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:19:10Z
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@Wolf480pl @simon @fribbledom what about people who undermine open source drivers with blobs and attempt to trash innocent users devices?I'm pretty sure I hate FTDI, but not because of their political beliefs, they're just dumb :parrot:
(DIR) Post #9nSGHk11WKtsDG3JIG by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-09-30T17:19:48Z
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@emsenn @simon @kline @fribbledom I didn't say I'm hesitant to consider the group.I said I do not want to be associated with a certain label.
(DIR) Post #9nSGVdbIAUVEN4dvrU by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:22:01Z
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@Wolf480pl @simon @kline @fribbledom so if I said I was a member of the Folk Who Love Breathing and burned a hospital would you stop using the word "breathing" to describe the act of respiring?This all just seems like silly semantic bickering when someone's asked, are you for or against putting your boot on someone's neck to get what you need?
(DIR) Post #9nSGYuSnvbKfXXEWJc by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-09-30T17:22:55Z
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@kline @simon @fribbledom It's sad. But I don't wish them death.Well, I may wish some corporations to go bankrupt. You extend the definition of hate to include corporations and mean "wishing them to go bankrupt". In that case, I'd hate a few corporations. But even in case of NVidia, I wish them to realize open-source drivers are not their enemy, and work towards releasing full specs.
(DIR) Post #9nSGZqrGonMieD7sVE by fool@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T17:23:03Z
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@kline @emsenn @fribbledom In other words, the only problem with the question is that you disagree with the premise. That disagreement appears to me to be philosophical rather than epistemological. Consider that everything is political.
(DIR) Post #9nSGjzQ3qKLE5yEWv2 by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:24:55Z
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@fool @emsenn @fribbledom Call it what you may, I can't say "I'm antifascist" in good faith. Not to my own political beliefs, not without the fear of watering down what it means to really consider antifascism important and part of your identity, and not to answer what I feel is a lie on someone else's poll (that I genuinely believe was posted in good faith, but ineffectively).
(DIR) Post #9nSGwGskk6StjKVgnI by fool@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T17:27:08Z
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@kline @emsenn @fribbledom Getting people who aren't fascist to think that they're not against fascism either (whether in truth or in rhetoric) is a trick, and you seem to have fallen for it.
(DIR) Post #9nSH1Iq2tdgVFHdvtI by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:27:45Z
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@kline I think we're all legitimately concerned that any political belief that doesn't address fascism firmly enough to be against it is not going to have safeguards against it and so either lead to it, be co-opyed by it, or be suppressed by it. Any robust political theory must have a position of fascism. @fool @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSH8pEGrnx3jMYrLc by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:29:25Z
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@fool @emsenn @fribbledom I think it's a spectrum. Fascist is on one end, antifascist is another. I consider myself to be tilted quite firmly towards antifascist, but not so much, nor is it important enough to my political identity, that I would describe myself as antifascist, and I think it would be dishonest on my part to say so, as well as devaluing the honest position of those that do identify that way.
(DIR) Post #9nSHGBLT2QegLjR2sC by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:30:27Z
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@kline Pretty much all political dictionaties, officials, pundits, and activists would disagree and say that it is definitely a binary. @fool @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSHQIm4GvUAHnhdsu by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-09-30T17:32:34Z
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@fribbledom @CarbonCatalyst @tyil It was ambiguous. There were multiple meanings. And since we're on the Fediverse, "are you antifascist" was more likely to mean "do you agree that everyone I decide to call a fascist has no human rights and deserves to be killed" rather than "do you think fascism is wrong".And the results you're getting are not people's answer to your intended question.For the most part, they represent how they interpreted the question.So you have a group of people who all agree that fascists are wrong but still have human rights like everyone else. Then you ask a question that splits them in two groups, depending on how they interpreted the question. In each group's interpretation of the question, the other group's answer means they support a horrible and violent ideology. IOW, these two groups starts to hate each other because of how you worded the question, even though they initially agreed on the ideas.Is this what you want?Polarize people, and push them into extremism?
(DIR) Post #9nSHZxZLy0ELPpMRjE by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:32:32Z
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@kline No one cares how honest you are if you can't tell me you wouldn't act against a deportation happening in front of you. Are a fascist, a collaborator, or against that sort of thing? Collaborators make fascism go, so they're fascists. Are you a fascist or not? It really ain't complicated. You're putting a weird purity on your language that hides a real loosened in belief, I think. @fool @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSHZxoF4e8kA0KKw4 by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:34:18Z
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@emsenn @fool @fribbledom I wouldn't disrupt a legal deportation flight that I walked past in the departures land, no. What does that make me?
(DIR) Post #9nSHb7OAwW4QA0gXIm by fool@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T17:34:30Z
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@kline @emsenn @fribbledom You're hung up on this idea about it being "important to your political identity," which wasn't present in the original question and, frankly, irrelevant. Introducing this concept to what was originally a simple question is the source of all this equivocation.
(DIR) Post #9nSHeU86qiP3Yhm9mC by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:34:51Z
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@kline A collaborator. @fool @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSHfQTjuSASWaLFXk by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:35:17Z
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@fool @emsenn @fribbledom that so many people seem hung up on it, from both sides of the political spectrum, suggests to me that it's probably less irrelevant than was intended.
(DIR) Post #9nSHfmN6VnvqQNPGFs by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-30T17:35:23Z
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@Wolf480pl Relax, man, "it's really quite easy". Haha (just making fun of the assumption of how simple it really is)
(DIR) Post #9nSHhnKbulD5yqCXDs by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:35:43Z
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@emsenn @fool @fribbledom Alright, make sure I'm on the list for the purging when the antifascists are in power, then.
(DIR) Post #9nSHklyLQMK6dMCrhY by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:35:59Z
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@kline Uh I really just see privileged liberals getting fussy about it. Don't mistake people like you for "everyone," lots and lots of votes happened with no commwnt. @fool @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSHpE1P4ylSmllCmu by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:36:47Z
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@kline The fact you think antifascista would hold power shows how reactive and juvenile your understanding of these topics are, despite your pleas for linguistic rigor. @fool @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSI4qBTTTzNUJuusS by fool@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T17:39:53Z
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@kline @emsenn @fribbledom Set aside this idea of a "spectrum." Other issues have a spectrum. This one is pretty cut and dry. If "is fascism good or bad?" is a hard question for you, you should consider why that may be. Psychologically, there could be any number of reasons.
(DIR) Post #9nSIF6geyIpnZDOnmi by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:41:45Z
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@fool @emsenn @fribbledom I think fascism is bad, but I don't consider myself as "an antifascist", nor do I take the steps that others who do identify that way might (such as the disruption of legal, but immoral in the views of antifascists, deportation flights).
(DIR) Post #9nSIKOCtGDuhLrzevA by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:42:25Z
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@kline I don't think you think fascism is half as bad as you think you think you do. @fool @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSIOZXP4hDPeUaCLw by fool@mastodon.technology
2019-09-30T17:43:27Z
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@kline @emsenn @fribbledom The point being made is that there's no difference between being against fascism and being an antifascist. You've been trying to explain why you disagree with that, but your argument has mostly been semantic in nature.
(DIR) Post #9nSIZCXstqANWosO5w by kline@cmpwn.com
2019-09-30T17:45:22Z
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@fool @emsenn @fribbledom you might believe in that assertion, but clearly a number of people don't, and that's why they've come to the comments to state that position. I hope I've been polite and accommodating in explaining why I think that and I hope it's been useful, even if we continue to disagree.
(DIR) Post #9nSIevhkQVzV2DDmFs by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-09-30T17:46:26.665727Z
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@kline @fribbledom @fool @emsenn
(DIR) Post #9nSItcdJcGkIEH9bKC by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:48:46Z
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@kline "white fuck who just learned some terms insists his use of them is more correct" is a tired online trope, let's knock it off; shut up and listen to these folk who have a lot they could teach you, if you'd make an effort to understand instead of trying to elevate your reactive thoughts as though they're the same as experienced learnings. @fool @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nSLyrssdlPyq8cxFY by emsenn@tenforward.social
2019-09-30T17:20:02Z
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@tyil @kline @fribbledom Y'all seem willfully ignorant as to the systemic nature of oppression and I don't have the energy to get into that discussion.
(DIR) Post #9nSLys4DxaUZPJw0vo by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-09-30T18:23:39.049348Z
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@emsenn @kline @fribbledom If you honestly believe my assessment is incorrect, calling me "willfully ignorant" will never solve the problem. Since you're unwilling to respond to me and discuss why it is you think I'm "ignorant", I have to assume you have absolutely no way to back up your claim, and have resorted to name calling in an attempt to shut me up.If you honestly have no energy to discuss it, you could've just left out this reply, after all.
(DIR) Post #9nSOgYo58AIMK3LQjg by patchman@social.linux.pizza
2019-09-30T18:53:56Z
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@byllgrim @Wolf480pl I voted that I'm a fascist, because labels mean less to me than the boolean yes and no.I propose we start another group that brings the fascist and anti-facists some warm bisquits and tea for a half-time teabreak where everyone can discuss what they saw on TV last night and weather a strawberry is a nut or if it's just the little seeds that are nuts.
(DIR) Post #9nTDbIoyEVDUxT0iae by IslandScrubJay@anarchism.space
2019-10-01T04:24:25Z
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@masterofthetiger @fribbledom sounds like something a fascist sympathizer would say tbh
(DIR) Post #9nTDpeT6XsY49Ncp4S by izaliamae@barkshark.tk
2019-10-01T04:27:27Z
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@fribbledom The amount of people not understanding this and fighting over semantics is astounding tbh
(DIR) Post #9nTIv0WJ1z3pgr6zey by masterofthetiger@theres.life
2019-10-01T05:24:03Z
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@IslandScrubJayNope. No fascism here. I believe in democracy and freedom. Fascists are against that. I firmly oppose fascism, but some people are called fascists who are not actually fascists. The term fascist is used for name calling. I wish we would save it for some real meaning for the real fascists. @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #9nTJVzu0I5TeUMpnRg by jackwilliambell@rustedneuron.com
2019-09-30T19:17:52Z
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@fribbledom Heh! I blocked one persistent sea-lion and it cut the number of total responses in the thread by nearly half.
(DIR) Post #9nTJW0ED4xdlV2HvwO by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-10-01T00:00:25Z
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@jackwilliambell @fribbledom let me guess, brony?
(DIR) Post #9nTJW0T6BbYAFDFp9E by jackwilliambell@rustedneuron.com
2019-10-01T01:24:36Z
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@zensaiyuki @fribbledom Didn't pay that much attention. Whoever it was kept replying with long-winded diatribes where there was no accepting of contrary arguments and was clearly sea-lioning.
(DIR) Post #9nTJW0lt3kZxBU2pQu by zensaiyuki@mastodon.social
2019-10-01T01:26:29Z
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@jackwilliambell @fribbledom I know the guy. he followed me a while back and literally sealioned everything I interacted with systematically. also he’s friends with a bunch of neo nazi instances.
(DIR) Post #9nTJW12u2UBq2G0PxI by jackwilliambell@rustedneuron.com
2019-10-01T01:45:20Z
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@zensaiyuki @fribbledom Not surprised. I've got no time for that shit. It's not like it's an actual honest debate and, in fact, they lie about their actual positions while at the same time trying to make those positions look less awful.
(DIR) Post #9nTJW1QecBBlDv7Nya by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-10-01T05:30:42Z
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@jackwilliambell Are you not interested in whether there is a system in the way they talk that could be cracked and conquered?
(DIR) Post #9nTJjsXmRiI9im3hqK by IslandScrubJay@anarchism.space
2019-10-01T05:33:14Z
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@masterofthetiger care to provide an example of false accusations of fascism?
(DIR) Post #9nTKPzk84Oa2DAuw5Y by masterofthetiger@theres.life
2019-10-01T05:40:51Z
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@IslandScrubJayI mentioned it once above. I don't know why people call Donald Trump a fascist. I may not agree with him, but I don't see how he is fascist. Everyone who I have seen say that he is a fascist have not explained why.Also, hating Jews does not make someone a fascist by itself, nor vice versa. Some of the most popular fascists were anti-Semites though. Fascism is a political system right? A bad political system I'll give you that, but there's not much to fascism by itself beyond that.Am I off somewhere? If you can prove me wrong I would be willing to listen.
(DIR) Post #9nTRejLI1q3ZMvGx28 by IslandScrubJay@anarchism.space
2019-10-01T04:31:22Z
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@tyil @CarbonCatalyst @fribbledom fascists and their sympathizers/enablers deserve worse than name calling
(DIR) Post #9nTRejnILiSSlmNJgW by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-10-01T07:01:56.398279Z
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@IslandScrubJay @CarbonCatalyst @fribbledom Well, I disagree there, mostly because unlike you, I don't think anyone with a different opinion than myself must be fascist (or an "enabler"). Your comment, however, signals that you don't shy away from fascism. Dehumanizing people you disagree with is a common fascist tactic.You could use some self-reflection, if you honestly think you're an "anti-fascist", yet are in favour of using fascist tactics.
(DIR) Post #9nU26cBbpE0PdHL90K by IslandScrubJay@anarchism.space
2019-10-01T13:41:12Z
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@tyil @CarbonCatalyst @fribbledom I don't think that everyone I disagree with is a fascist, goofball. I said that fascists, in addition to the people who support them and allow them to create fascism within a society, should be opposed with more than just insults. If that's what fascism is, then the Allies in WWII were pretty fascist for going as far as to *gasp* wage war, of all things, against the Axis "just because they disagreed with them."
(DIR) Post #9nU26cON3mDKGrJKtc by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-10-01T13:50:20.909931Z
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@IslandScrubJay @CarbonCatalyst @fribbledom If you read my post again, you'll notice the part between brackets, "or an enabler". This is conveniently left out of your response here, even though it was quite important to the context.Seeing as you consider everyone not actively fighting against fascism is "an enabler" at least, you'd seem to think that the allied forces should've rounded up all European citizens and shoot them on the spot for not actively fighting against fascism. If the allied forces had gone around doing that, I would indeed consider their actions to be leaning more towards fascist than not. You, however, seem to be of the opinion that they should've done that, because that's what people "deserve" for "allowing" the existence of a fascist state.
(DIR) Post #9nWrfBLW8QSbHt1tZY by EuphoriaLavender@mastodon.social
2019-10-02T22:37:23Z
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@fribbledom You know, mentally I'm supporting anti-fascism, and probably with what I personally put out into the world, but thinking about this I realized that financially, at least, with what I buy, not thinking that this question enters into my purchases, I may be supporting fascism in some way. I am also not actively involved in politics, so does that mean I'm also supporting it? 🤷🏼