Post 9n9KVoblaCcFatoTYm by henrikjohansen@bsd.network
(DIR) More posts by henrikjohansen@bsd.network
(DIR) Post #9n9AqSMgTkjJ9Cxiwy by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-21T12:19:11Z
2 likes, 6 repeats
Linux systemd is now going to manage user /home directories.I don't... I mean, I just can't... (ahem)Let me try again.1) You are going to let a piece of software manage something which is freakishly sensitive and can create A LOT OF PROBLEMS down the line.2) ALL software have bugs. Lots of them. And systemd is, shall we say, a highly complex piece of sotware, that contains a LOT of bugs.What could possibly go wrong? 🤦♂️ https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=systemd-homed
(DIR) Post #9n9BHCJqFFbvCWNrhw by sb_51_@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-21T12:24:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque years ago some visionnaires told peuple this thing is an oger. They were blacklisted, they d'été tinfoild hated.Now Time has come to prompte non systemd distros or it won't be a grave but the future de choose
(DIR) Post #9n9C1JGqjMz859yLTM by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-21T12:32:22Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
This just makes me more and more convinced that systemd needs to be avoided at all costs.I will manage it for you if needed but I will never use anything with systemd in my own projects and servers.#Slackware #OpenBSD #NetBSD
(DIR) Post #9n9CLWYZ2ofL4wtgXo by claudiom@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-21T12:35:54Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque I was thinking, "What's the point of this?" but then I read the comments. I can see the use case in how they describe it in the comments, but two words come to mind with this...Lock. In.Seems to be a great tool for making home directories portable....if you use systemd. What if you want to move your home directory to a BSD or a non-systemd distribution?Aye, there's the rub.
(DIR) Post #9n9CpGP5fGlBfYe9my by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-21T12:41:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@claudiom Precisely. Lock in is the correct term.Systemd main dev is Lennart Poettering, who is a Red Hat employee, which means he works for IBM.Sure, this thing is GPL licensed, but it's clearly an attempt to sink yet more things into systemd that should not be managed by it.Soon, given the complete lack of experience a lot of devs have with "classic" UNIX, everything will be an evil and toxic "Linux only" monoculture.
(DIR) Post #9n9D362kyqhhaknR68 by claudiom@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-21T12:43:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque I think the IBM-RH thing (other than him working for them) is stretching it a bit, but I do see systemd encroaching into more things that should probably be left alone. The comments in the Phoronix post definitely show that.
(DIR) Post #9n9Dlg8g8hlGHWpC4G by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-21T12:51:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@claudiom It may be stretching things a bit, but you have to remember that IBM was a master at Lock in.The very first "IBM Compatible" were, after all, mainframe systems such as Amdahl.I am not saying RH is trying the same thing, but it really, really looks like it. Linux Lock In.Sad thing is, this is something that should be left to the user. A reasonable Linux should offer the admin a choice in init systems, from System III to systemd, with other options thrown in.
(DIR) Post #9n9E2vEfGQjM1eqZJQ by claudiom@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-21T12:45:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque I wonder if there will be a breaking point for the Linux community where it would turn distros to removing it for something else that sticks with the UNIX philosophy.
(DIR) Post #9n9E2vR4WIege8eTeS by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-21T12:55:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@claudiom It's too late for that. Gentoo, Slackware, Devuan and the BSDs are (as far as I know) the only options left, along with smaller players.Gentoo attitude is interesting, since they support pretty much everything under the sun *and* provide docs for it:https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems
(DIR) Post #9n9EXYsMRlpveh1aKm by claudiom@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-21T13:00:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque Agreed, it should be left to the user. In the end, I think it still is. This is basically a "feature" for those using systemd-based distros. However, if it's going to be "on by default" for all distros using systemd, then that might be a problem. Maybe you can still export things the old-fashioned way, but we'll have to see once it's out there officially.
(DIR) Post #9n9EbOpPkGtXeTTame by claudiom@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-21T13:01:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque And, yes, I do remember IBM locking people in to their PCs during the clone wars of the 80s and early 90s. Look at how well that worked for them. There might be a possibility, but most will catch on I believe.
(DIR) Post #9n9FpE1KpCgM8mCzWi by fink@chaos.social
2019-09-21T13:07:32Z
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@claudiom @FiXato @ParadeGrotesque then you mount it as usual? Afair it was just luks?
(DIR) Post #9n9FpEES2RAqnSLSyG by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-21T13:14:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fink It was "just" LUKS does not even begin to cover it.I have noticed systemd has a very nasty habit of keeping information to itself -- information that was previously held in human-readable log files (see: journald and friends).Case in point: JSON is a terrible file format. And systemd-homed uses JSON.It's another step in making everything a container, and a virtual machine, in which users are never created or even needed. Which, itself, is a very debatable trend.@claudiom @FiXato
(DIR) Post #9n9GZkRyaHcC2YqzS4 by kot@mastodon.social
2019-09-21T13:23:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesquesystemd has never and will never manage anything on any of my *nix devices.
(DIR) Post #9n9IWhbUuW0QFfyyum by henrikjohansen@bsd.network
2019-09-21T13:45:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesqueSeriously, just look at it's name ... it is the *system daemon*. It's intentions are pretty clear ... but it's not a philosophy that I can agree with ... which is why I avoid it where I can.@claudiom
(DIR) Post #9n9J636QyBbd46J7p2 by claudiom@mastodon.xyz
2019-09-21T13:47:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@henrikjohansen I agree with what @cobra2 said about how systemd should have plugins that users can add if needed, not be built-in to what should only be an init replacement. @ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9n9J63PvnhCa2ZQhDE by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-21T13:51:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@claudiom Having a modular "systemd" would make it a lot more tolerable, yes.But, unfortunately, this is *not* how systemd work (at least on the machines I have used): it's all or nothing. Once you go systemd, there is no going back, because systemd insists on managing anything and everything. And managing everything pretty badly, I might add. Jack of all trades, master of none, and all that.@henrikjohansen @cobra2
(DIR) Post #9n9KVoblaCcFatoTYm by henrikjohansen@bsd.network
2019-09-21T14:07:40Z
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@ParadeGrotesqueBeing modular is not it's goal ... It's goal is to be the totalitarian dictator that manages "the system" ... not a part of the system ... the entire system. A kernel to control userland. Which is wrong.@claudiom @cobra2
(DIR) Post #9n9PGS6BUPsZD3XCZE by visiblink@fosstodon.org
2019-09-21T15:00:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque Thanks for the link!I fail to see the problem that's being solved here. I just migrated from one machine to another. I copied my files over and put all the dot-files in a separate directory to re-use or not, depending on the circumstances.I started using Linux precisely because I could understand and configure the system. It's probably time to switch to Devuan or Slackware, because I'm already getting systemd'd and starting to forget old ways of doing things.
(DIR) Post #9n9WTC0BLckEjJkVeq by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-09-21T16:21:38Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@visiblink I've recently migrated 10 production servers from Jessie -> ASCII -> Beowulf. It all went without a hitch. I did two reboots, one for changing the init system and the other because I upgraded the kernel (not required, but nice). Each migration took about 20 minutes.I'll be moving all my other Debian servers to Devuan, in due course.@ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9n9c897dSWWXRTaCgK by sowth@freeradical.zone
2019-09-21T17:25:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesquenow they are going to break home diectories? what if you have user files outside of home?when i heard systemd was written by the same guy who wrote pulseaudio, i thought "no wonder it is a piece of crap."
(DIR) Post #9n9e9jd3PfxcrcAEca by paulgatling@bsd.network
2019-09-21T17:47:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fitheachWhat are the quirks of using Devuan? Specifically with software install? Are you back to cobbling up your own init scripts?@visiblink @ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9n9eokWazGnhVzhU6y by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-09-21T17:55:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@paulgatling I made a couple of changes to the dist provided SysV init scripts, nothing major. Now I think about it, I'm not sure where they came from, I'd need to check.I actually use Runit, as well. I find it works well with my Python stuff and Gunicorn etc. For Runit I pretty much use one template and just modify to suit. Never had any trouble with it.@visiblink @ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9n9fD9JoSKZdMUM8kC by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-09-21T17:59:34Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@paulgatling Forgot...There aren't any Devuan quirks, it just works like old-style Debian with SysV init. If you run Devuan (or any non-systemd distro) some applications won't be available as they depend on systemd, notably most Gnome stuff. Wouldn't bother me as I use Xfce.@visiblink @ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9n9fuRTWpF8C7rXnWK by paulgatling@bsd.network
2019-09-21T18:07:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fitheachOh yeah well that isn't a problem for me. I wonder if lxqt has any systemd requirements. Doubtful. Cool! I might have to go this route and get away from centos on my production stuff..@visiblink @ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9n9gCDMu0scVaQv4Bk by fitheach@mstdn.io
2019-09-21T18:10:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@paulgatling If it is here:https://pkginfo.devuan.org/it doesn't need systemd. 😃 @visiblink @ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9n9mugxXxHJnpPeQeu by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-09-21T19:25:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque @claudiom kinda reminds me of how most devs don't know classic internet protocols, so they put everything on top of HTTP
(DIR) Post #9n9mxALFgQBrXEv1Lk by opal@pl.wowana.me
2019-09-21T19:26:20.087903Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque nothing could go wrong given i dont use poetteringdhe has the right problems in mind (well, arguably; some problems he proposes are legitimate in the unix world) with all the wrong solutions
(DIR) Post #9n9nEP8Rw08AL69OJE by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2019-09-21T19:29:28.542808Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque >using systemd in $current-year
(DIR) Post #9n9nO808Uely5vtlZI by trash@mastodon.host
2019-09-21T19:28:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque I'm personally anticipate it out of curiosity.You've gotta rememver that package management was a cery tough task back then. Handling lots of sensitive files. People were opposed to password managers for a reason because they were complicated, buggy peices of software. It's best to remember that systemd usn't one program, it's a lot of modular programs that can be removed and replaced individually. If this ends up being good, I'll keep it. If not, I'll turn it off until it is. Simple as that.
(DIR) Post #9n9ozmWKuFOCQqTiTo by dwaltiz@pleroma.soykaf.com
2019-09-21T19:49:15.763791Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque Oh boy, can't wait for all the non-systemd distros needing "ehomed" for compatibility with modern software that uses systemd as a hard dependency
(DIR) Post #9n9sDdE0Z0FBWECXiK by h4ck3r9@cybre.space
2019-09-21T20:11:40Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@henrikjohansenAll the more reason to pledge allegiance to my Benevolent Dictator, Mr Patrick Volkerding and Slackware, home of the Subgenius! @ParadeGrotesque @claudiom @cobra2
(DIR) Post #9n9sEhZZsqiJIEnhUu by redsPL@niu.moe
2019-09-21T20:25:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque Sounds like I'm not updating systemd on my servers until I get some time to move to runit distros...
(DIR) Post #9n9sQCNrfXzq2NnujI by cobra2@not.unixporn.pro
2019-09-21T20:25:12.428161Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@h4ck3r9 @claudiom @ParadeGrotesque @henrikjohansen All hail Bob.
(DIR) Post #9n9sQD0VLsu9yDslxQ by johnnynull@not.unixporn.pro
2019-09-21T20:27:36.548976Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cobra2 @h4ck3r9 @ParadeGrotesque @claudiom @henrikjohansen "Bob"
(DIR) Post #9nA2kl3VTAfau2iwK0 by emacsen@emacsen.net
2019-09-21T22:23:25Z
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@ParadeGrotesque There's a lot of hate for SystemD but what I hear far less about is how those who don't like SystemD propose to address the problems that it solves.The "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" argument only works if it ain't broke, but it is broke. Many things on a modern GNU/Linux sysstem have been broke, and are less broke now. User and home directory management is also broke, and so it's time to fix it.If not with SystemD, then it'll be something that just does the same job.
(DIR) Post #9nA6xJF4aeLWDqNH5U by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-21T23:10:15Z
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@emacsen My issue is that I'd really like to know what problems, exactly, is systemd "solving".Log management? Nope.Init? The only thing systemd is good for is speed.User management? Oh please.Disk management? Nope.It seems to me systemd is more a solution looking for a problem than the other way around.
(DIR) Post #9nA7zgUJEYuqqpCIQS by emacsen@emacsen.net
2019-09-21T23:22:08Z
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@ParadeGrotesque Have you read any of the docs on SystemD? It solves issues around power management, around services coming up and down properly.The new stuff is around the unification of users and how there are so many separate systems around authentication, around information about users, resource limits, and how user information is spread across the system rather than being contained in the home directory.If you want some presentations talking about the problems, I can point you to them.
(DIR) Post #9nAAIMcJXNSQdIyb2G by trashheap@tech.lgbt
2019-09-21T23:47:53Z
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@emacsen @ParadeGrotesque Being someone who is trying very hard to be systemd agnostic; I do think one thing that gets overlooked (which is an unspoken point of resentment.) Is that systemd is ultimately wresting a lot of architectural choices away from distributions.Ultimately this is something of a design goal; it's trying to standardize and unify linux plumbing.And I can even squint and see the benfits of standardzing some things across distributions about home directory management.
(DIR) Post #9nAAwraLoisaGMMz5c by trashheap@tech.lgbt
2019-09-21T23:48:18Z
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@emacsen @ParadeGrotesque But I gotta concede its always bound to create a lot of resistance. Distributions are a lot more than package managers. And their kind of being treated that way on multiple fronts these days.Distributions and power users have been used to making those decisions about their OSes for a long time.
(DIR) Post #9nAAws4820hNkiIlVI by trashheap@tech.lgbt
2019-09-21T23:52:37Z
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@emacsen @ParadeGrotesque My personal preference is for architectural diversity. Having all the distros feel "samey" is honestly boring to me.But Ive decided to concede that, that isn't in vogue and I need to get with the program.
(DIR) Post #9nAAwsVmNCoh8TEqbQ by emacsen@emacsen.net
2019-09-21T23:55:14Z
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@trashheap @ParadeGrotesque What benefit does architectual diversity provide you in this context?As a developer I see architectual diversity without stable APIs as a barrier to software development or stability.As a system integrator (sys-admin, devops, etc.) it means I have to remember or abstract away arcane knowledge.There are some potential benefits in very specific circumstances, so I'm curious what you're thinking here?
(DIR) Post #9nABAcEtfbYWiptOZk by trashheap@tech.lgbt
2019-09-21T23:57:43Z
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@emacsen @ParadeGrotesque No objective benefit whatsoever.As a user and sys administrator, ive been very opinionated on architectural choicese; and ive picked my OS based along various personal prefrences ive agregated.Sometimes adjusting those prefrences with experience.This causes me to strongly identify with my choice of OS; and gives me lots of incentive from time to time to explore others.But it's entirely subject and emotive on my part.
(DIR) Post #9nAuh1c3MaTqcXYGjQ by comrad@mastodon.social
2019-09-22T08:27:46Z
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@ParadeGrotesque no its not and you didnt read properly. movable homes it is. but Beissreflex is a nice thing to have.
(DIR) Post #9nAv3l8MnUX0AmVTDU by Haydar@social.tchncs.de
2019-09-22T08:31:53Z
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@ParadeGrotesque @claudiom I would mention Artix as well. Being an Arch derivative with thousands of packages it is also one of the bigger projects.Then there is Alpine Linux, which is small but well suited for smaller servers and routers (when building a DMZ I mostly choose it for the outer or inner firewall, the other one is OpenBSD)And of course MX Linux, a Debian derivative and currently number one at @distrowatch
(DIR) Post #9nBADJjN2ERxOLpYIa by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-09-22T11:21:42Z
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@jookia More power to you!
(DIR) Post #9nGZWcBtztrdlaobUO by ND3JR@social.coop
2019-09-25T01:58:46Z
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@ParadeGrotesque @claudiom Red Hat's been staging a coup for years on the rest of the Linux world, and systemd has been the vehicle for that coup. Debian, Arch, et al mad a Faustian bargain when they decided to adopt systemd, and the result is that Red Hat is increasingly calling the shots for Linux as a whole.It's not even an original idea, though its scope beyond an init system and daemon supervisor is. For other examples see Solaris's SMF & Apple's launchd.
(DIR) Post #9qzRu1N92wxy5ryRPs by djmoch@mastodon.danielmoch.com
2020-01-14T11:11:41Z
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@ParadeGrotesque This is pretty much the rationale that just brought me from #ArchLinux to #Slackware
(DIR) Post #9qzRzXXwqoonKPetjk by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-01-14T11:12:43Z
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@djmoch Welcome to the #Slackware world!
(DIR) Post #9qzSSGkcNMBxdSHfFY by djmoch@mastodon.danielmoch.com
2020-01-14T11:17:57Z
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@ParadeGrotesque Thanks!