Post 9mM5afh3InxFkO9olU by ViletteAlex@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by ViletteAlex@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #9mLtYEClKmYOSp3euu by yogthos@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T17:44:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
"Why Socialism?" by Albert Einsteinhttp://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism
(DIR) Post #9mLuRUptCZWLyHiHYG by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T17:54:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yogthos this is another confirmation that "I am convinced" is not enough for something to actually be true, no matter how smart is the one who is convinced. Quite a number of societies tried public ownership of means of production, planned economy and educating people about being good to one another. All failed (at scale).Social democracy, on the other hand, seems to be working.
(DIR) Post #9mLv7cupYHThC076tE by yogthos@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T18:02:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev saying that we should abandon an idea just because we haven't figured out how to make it work well is a fallacy. And even communism in USSR resulted in a higher quality of life for most people than it does under capitalism https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1136693839526223872
(DIR) Post #9mLvmrOecI43yfj1Em by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T18:09:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yogthos but trying the same thing over and over again is hardly smart. And I'm not even talking about the cost in human lives that these experiments tend to bear. All the while we *already* have examples that work better than both Soviet-style socialism and American-style capitalism, namely European social democracies. Sweden serves an especially good example after they tried to be more socialistic in the 70s and then dialed it back when it didn't work.
(DIR) Post #9mLvvVZr6rVSud5X72 by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T18:11:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yogthos P.S. as someone who did live in USSR I don't buy the idea that quality of life can be demonstrated by simply comparing GDP per capita.
(DIR) Post #9mLxDFJqOcKxefcYYS by yogthos@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T18:25:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev I also lived in USSR, and life was fine in my opinion. I was certainly happy there. The study I linked doesn't just compare GDP, it talks about many aspects of life.
(DIR) Post #9mLxjsddk9CertRQm0 by yogthos@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T18:31:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev nobody is suggesting trying the same thing over and over again though. And what USSR had was really state run capitalism as opposed to socialism.I think social democracies are fine by the way, but I'd like to see more exploration of running businesses as worker owned cooperatives which bring democracy to the workplace. Incidentally, this is something USSR never had.
(DIR) Post #9mLz8WGKAqV8fDqfFg by jackiemoon@mastodon.xyz
2019-08-28T18:47:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yogthosWho said that all "socialistic experiments" failed, in the past and right now?@isagalaev
(DIR) Post #9mM2d0BRn7iY0snI5g by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T19:05:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jackiemoon @yogthos first, I didn't say all, I said at scale. There were a few examples where it worked, like in Revolutionary Catalonia before WWII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia), but those were small and short-lived. Also, I mean specifically socialism as defined by collective ownership of means of production, not any sort of socially responsible government.Here's a good intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k79wCaFgU40
(DIR) Post #9mM2d0XmS5a989F7tw by yogthos@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T19:26:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev @jackiemoon I think it's important to keep in mind that US invests an insane amount of resources into stamping out socialism across the globe. So, there really haven't been any experiments in socialism that were allowed to grow without massive amounts of interference.Meanwhile, USSR went from an agrarian society through doing most of the heavy lifting in WW2 to being the first nation to put a man in space. That's quite an achievement for communism in my opinion.
(DIR) Post #9mM5afh3InxFkO9olU by ViletteAlex@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T19:59:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yogthos @OCRbot
(DIR) Post #9mMAW27D0hwNbu01xI by isagalaev@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T20:54:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yogthos @jackiemoon this is the point where I want to argue about so many points in depth that the microblogging format is simply not enough. So I won't :-)
(DIR) Post #9mMAv32CjIVxhWaQzI by yogthos@mastodon.social
2019-08-28T20:59:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@isagalaev @jackiemoon yeah this kind of format is really not ideal for any sort of in depth conversation.Overall, my view is that to have a true democracy you have to have democratic allocation of resources as well as democracy in the workplace. That's what socialism means to me ultimately.
(DIR) Post #9mMTvnoehBJfv7K3pg by tomisme@merveilles.town
2019-08-29T00:32:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yogthos in a planned economy, who are the planners?
(DIR) Post #9mMkusxhmAKCoMhi6K by yogthos@mastodon.social
2019-08-29T03:42:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tomisme ideally the experts on the subject, I mean that's how corporations plan things right now. You get a group of experts and get them to come up with options. You can vote on what one is preferable. You can even select the experts from a larger group like jury duty.