Post 9m4zAz4kJuOYKPCTku by gordon@gluten.space
(DIR) More posts by gordon@gluten.space
(DIR) Post #9m4ymK4B8iR6BsAw5o by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T13:53:01.771983Z
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@gordon None of the above ! It's a shame though, this poll could be interesting.
(DIR) Post #9m4z2qPWeTxF8c2RX6 by gordon@gluten.space
2019-08-20T13:53:13.515724Z
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@alice which is it for you?
(DIR) Post #9m4z2qcHt2A9mC0dQO by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T13:56:10.750812Z
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@gordon Something between just not agreeing with the social approach to animal exploitation and being at peace with what you called my own cruelty.
(DIR) Post #9m4zAyvAtUjrqiippw by gordon@gluten.space
2019-08-20T13:47:59.329825Z
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Why aren’t you vegan?
(DIR) Post #9m4zAz4kJuOYKPCTku by gordon@gluten.space
2019-08-20T13:53:30.251244Z
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damn now i wonder if the answers are sarcastic or not
(DIR) Post #9m4zAzKhMb9h7sfDcW by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T13:57:39.604364Z
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@gordon Do you ? Let me answer that for you ; )
(DIR) Post #9m4zMMnSSw3j5EXdpI by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T13:57:34Z
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@alice "Your own curely" ? Meaning eating dead animals is that right?@gordon
(DIR) Post #9m4zMN5XNiWLzJ050S by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T13:59:42.717190Z
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@freyja_wildes @gordon I guess so. And all other acts of cruelty since we're not discussing vegetarianism but veganism here, so I'm also at peace with stealing honey from bees and drinking the milk cows are forced to produce.
(DIR) Post #9m50UNxq6oi2yVmjBo by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:00:50Z
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@alice That's.... weird the way you put it.We "force" them to do it and yet you're ok with it? I mean, "force" isn't usually something positive, or is it?Same for bees, you use the term "steal"@gordon
(DIR) Post #9m50UO8TTHDTVUlDlY by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:01:20Z
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@alice If I get it right, you support vegetarianism but not veganism?@gordon
(DIR) Post #9m50UOOQVxycIyDxdA by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:12:17.486240Z
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@freyja_wildes @gordon I don't really support anything and I'm not a vegetarian. I only wish people changed their consumption habits in general and in particular cut their consumption of animal products.To answer your previous question, that's of course not how I see it myself but I chose those terms because that's how vegans would describe what I do, and I can't just answer critics by saying «I don't call it that so that's fine with me». No, I'm fine with it, even though I know that's what vegans would call it.
(DIR) Post #9m516ZGoWPJj2nrnt2 by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:15:18Z
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@alice I see. So killing and the way animal are treated isn't cruelty ? Isn't death at a premature age cruelty?That's unexpected but... ok I guessDo you consider animals are able of feeling suffering and pain ?"in particular cut their consumption of animal products."I suppose this is because of environmental consideration ?
(DIR) Post #9m516ZRnrY6jat0a12 by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:17:45Z
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@alice I can't just answer critics by saying «I don't call it that so that's fine with me»Yet that what you are doing. You don't consider your action in the same perspective vegans do, and that precisely why you don't agree with them, no?
(DIR) Post #9m516ZbjGe305feVUG by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:19:10.274845Z
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@freyja_wildes No it's the opposite : I don't consider my action with their perspective because I don't agree with them.
(DIR) Post #9m51EaMKMC2IjpGiyu by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:20:44.057047Z
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@freyja_wildes No, in term of everything. Environment, suffering. I know it's cruelty because I consider them able to feel pain.
(DIR) Post #9m51Oz6hCRmQO7uqfI by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:20:08Z
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@alice What?...Sorry, that makes no sense to me.You disagree with vegans, *therefore* you don't consider your action cruel ?
(DIR) Post #9m51Ozr8PmvWi9dw36 by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:22:35.790380Z
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@freyja_wildes No, I know they are. I just acknowledge with it and try to minimize the amount of suffering I cause.
(DIR) Post #9m51QtWevCf5eoyFW4 by handle@mastodon.social
2019-08-20T14:21:21Z
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@alice @gordon @freyja_wildes not a vegan either but cows are force-impregnated and most of the resulting calves are killed, in order to produce milk for human consumption. I don't think it's a question of interpretation
(DIR) Post #9m51QtoNrIq8XnGP8y by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:22:58.015665Z
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@handle Who talked about interpretation ? @gordon @freyja_wildes
(DIR) Post #9m51qlri1eZJQb9i1A by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:25:07Z
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@alice But you said you used "cruelty" because that what vegan used.I'm lost here, you find the treatment they are subjected to cruelty or not ? (I am sincerely asking here)
(DIR) Post #9m51qm3PK9vU0sd3Fg by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:27:37.074203Z
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@freyja_wildes I know it's cruel. I do find it cruel. (I was referring to the use of «steal» and «force» when I said «terms vegans would use»).
(DIR) Post #9m527Soe6W65GogNRA by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:26:24Z
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@alice Ok...Why not end it entirely then? I mean it's "zero" is the minimum amount of suffering, wouldn't you agree?
(DIR) Post #9m527SzHSybVnnes0u by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:30:34.316988Z
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@freyja_wildes Because there are many other social parameters involved. And even if I became vegan, I would still cause a lot more than no suffering at all just being a human in a rich country and staying alive.
(DIR) Post #9m52bYHWLaLQuRXGs4 by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:28:15Z
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@alice Oh ok. Now I get it
(DIR) Post #9m52bYUHa8YLY1VSlM by freyja_wildes@social.art-software.fr
2019-08-20T14:29:01Z
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@alice So it's not stealing for bees (or baby cows) and we don't force cows to fall pregnant to get milk.Am I getting this right?
(DIR) Post #9m52bYfctxcw7CoWRc by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:35:58.501631Z
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@freyja_wildes I'd like us not to confuse the capitalistic industrial exploitation of animals and the fact that humans have turned certain species into pets which destiny is now completely linked to ours. I have a lot of complaints with how animals are treated at the industrial scale but I don't see a conceptual issue in herding cows to drink their milk.
(DIR) Post #9m52nmMLpcbC2vcpdY by handle@mastodon.social
2019-08-20T14:33:01Z
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@alice you said "that's of course not how I see it myself but..", in reference to cows being "forced" to produce milk. I'm saying I don't agree that there's an interpretation where they aren't "forced"... @gordon @freyja_wildes
(DIR) Post #9m52nmbwtd4kpIvHwu by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T14:38:17.526268Z
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@handle Oh ok I see what you mean. No, you're right it's not an interpretation, the milk is taken from cows without their consent. @freyja_wildes
(DIR) Post #9m59o58Cjnppwf6FUW by arden@framapiaf.org
2019-08-20T14:27:19Z
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@gordon not super cool to leave out dietary restrictions or health reasons - you might argue there is always a way but it's a legitimate argument for people around me who try their hardest and suffer many complications in their daily lives already.But maybe I'm taking your poll too seriously.
(DIR) Post #9m59pFztp7ZDw2m9BI by alice@bidule.menf.in
2019-08-20T15:57:00.825436Z
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@arden All of us are, apparently. @gordon