Post 9m16xm0zackV3eogGe by _ampersand@radical.town
(DIR) More posts by _ampersand@radical.town
(DIR) Post #9m12qWT8ajjL00GgwC by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:19:55Z
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the writer of the biggest tv show ever made saying "themes are for eighth grade book reports" is the natural end result of the literalist approach to fiction which has grown in influence over the last two decades and is a direct result of the ever-increasing size of media conglomerates and the abandonment of humanities education
(DIR) Post #9m12wYp2krTe2FOT0S by minus_zero@girlcock.club
2019-08-18T16:21:01Z
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@garfiald wait what happened? what show? i didn't hear about this
(DIR) Post #9m12wnahqRvBq7njF2 by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:21:05Z
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i usually blame this on a certain strand of online culture but the truth is that the reddit approach to fiction is a symptom, not a cause
(DIR) Post #9m131lcoa8cHBr9lI0 by rachel0964@witches.live
2019-08-18T16:21:56Z
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@garfiald I mean I would also like to argue that it's the result of the way we teach people things being shit. Like, most people don't like reading anymore because school forced them to do it. I think it's a similar thing with themes. People don't wanna use them because their only association with them is being forced to figure them out in school and so they can't actually enjoy how cool they can be
(DIR) Post #9m137MorinR9ziSmkS by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:22:59Z
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@minus_zero quote is from david benioff, game of thrones showrunner
(DIR) Post #9m13GkqlkGm389pWW8 by dankwraith@monads.online
2019-08-18T16:24:32Z
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@garfiald writer: my work doesnt have themesthe themes in their work:
(DIR) Post #9m13SUz6Yi0TOpKSa8 by minus_zero@girlcock.club
2019-08-18T16:26:47Z
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@garfiald oh for fuck's sake. yeah i see like a weird distaste for talking about "themes" and an overly technical way of talking about media wrt "nerdy" stuff in particular, like the tv tropes school of media analysis. the wookieepedia page on darth vader's suit is probably the best example of everything i hate about this way of thinking.
(DIR) Post #9m13mhvu7uxPLkT63M by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:30:28Z
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the neoliberal transformation of the education system into a worker-producing machine has turned the humanities into a societal embarrassment, a jumble of bizarre cultural detritus, and the last few generations of schoolchildren have internalised this distaste. the cultural forces which work to undervalue less-profitable pursuits such as art are then internalised by creators and consumers of art
(DIR) Post #9m149YMRsfYKK7mI1A by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:34:35Z
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so that the kind of response to art which accommodates its non-productive specificity, responses that acknowledge art's possibility for meaning, responses that are conscious of themselves as participating in the work's creation, are subject to a concentrated form of the stigma that strikes art in general.while we fall short of the neoliberal ideal of the absence of art as anything other than an object of financial speculation, what encounters we do have with art still bear this system's mark
(DIR) Post #9m14Sf7WyQj4n0ubmi by radoptimist@radical.town
2019-08-18T16:38:02Z
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@garfiald oh my fucking christ
(DIR) Post #9m14Xlj1qQTyiot16W by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:38:57Z
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we come to think of ourselves, whether readers or writers, as technicians rather than creators. we reduce the work of to a set of data, and its analysis to data collection. writers are praised for producing data which is more coherent (without plot holes or inconsistencies), and which stands out - as data - from other data (this is the emphasis on unpredictable twists). good analysis of art in this framework focuses on collecting the data (establishing lore and timeline, rating their coherence)
(DIR) Post #9m14o11yhqywpCUrwm by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:41:54Z
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we have created a way of thinking about art which erases its artfulness. instead of encountering a work of fiction as a work of fiction, we encounter it as a kind of history book for an alternate reality. its very nature *as fiction*, as something which is not and does not pretend to be real, which claims to be neither true nor false, which is outside of our productive world, disappears.
(DIR) Post #9m14rRgk3DYWN1CPuy by a_breakin_glass@chaos.social
2019-08-18T16:42:30Z
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@garfiald what about works of fiction that have "being an AH history book" as a central conceit
(DIR) Post #9m150kKM7ZUamgABdI by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:44:12Z
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it's been 50 years and 12 days since adorno died
(DIR) Post #9m153Z6wHPk4rkERW4 by a_breakin_glass@chaos.social
2019-08-18T16:43:54Z
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@garfiald e.g "For Want of A Nail" being the most famous example, afaict
(DIR) Post #9m153ZIzYbNpT7s4Iq by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:44:42Z
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@a_breakin_glass hmm well it seems to me that those books are lying about that, you see
(DIR) Post #9m153bgSiJLUqUrqAC by radoptimist@radical.town
2019-08-18T16:44:42Z
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@garfiald having had some absolutely asinine Reddit-flavoured reviews on my writing lately this is pretty refreshing to read
(DIR) Post #9m155J98bfflvq5iwC by a_breakin_glass@chaos.social
2019-08-18T16:45:01Z
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@garfiald you know what I mean
(DIR) Post #9m15FiSFMlCpJszals by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T16:46:54Z
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@a_breakin_glass yes but im not sure you know what i mean. the kind of analysis which focuses exclusively on the coherence of plot and worldbuilding and denies the very possibility of thematic or allegorical meaning to the work treats texts of fiction as statements which are more or less true. which is not what they are.
(DIR) Post #9m15NyP5x2uF6NSIwS by a_breakin_glass@chaos.social
2019-08-18T16:48:22Z
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@garfiald oh now I get it
(DIR) Post #9m161KKWMd3KOm56ZM by pianosmasher@radical.town
2019-08-18T16:55:29Z
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@garfiald I’m reminded of hbomberguy’s defense of Dark Souls II’s story, where he defended the game against critiques of it not being “efficient storytelling” by reminding the viewer that “efficient” doesn’t always have to be synonymous with “good.” It can just be what it is, and the viewer can be free to react as necessaryEveryone’s entitled to their taste, but limiting that taste to the coherent and quantifiable based on a standard masking itself as “objective?” Seems unfair, even to oneself
(DIR) Post #9m16O41T9zbuU00ndA by _ampersand@radical.town
2019-08-18T16:59:36Z
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@garfiald I think that if Benioff & Weiss had more humanities education, they'd just say their works have no themes, but they'd cite Adorno or Lacan to back them up.
(DIR) Post #9m16SFVYOsZJGJ4yyu by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:00:22Z
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@_ampersand lol
(DIR) Post #9m16VzNQJjuoOH3lWC by policeinchains@todon.nl
2019-08-18T17:00:51Z
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@garfiald somehow i was thinking about adorno at the same minute you posted this.
(DIR) Post #9m16WZ1hlxvuxLAvfE by garbados@toot.cat
2019-08-18T17:01:08Z
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@garfiald this thread is shifting my world. thanks garf
(DIR) Post #9m16a57atuAxMjbi6q by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:01:48Z
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@policeinchains maybe we're living through an adornian moment... who knows
(DIR) Post #9m16d6UmFUpeUmtMhs by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:02:20Z
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@garbados thank you so much for reading!
(DIR) Post #9m16xm0zackV3eogGe by _ampersand@radical.town
2019-08-18T17:06:04Z
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@garfiald Remember, one of the most overtly ghoulish American neoliberals was raised by a Gramsci translator.
(DIR) Post #9m17GO44rOu4HP8RI8 by TeethTeethTeeth@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:09:25Z
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@garfiald I love this thread. It reminded me of this essay about approaches to world building which also wants art, even fantastical art, to be applicable to reality.http://bardichesandbathhouses.blogspot.com/2019/01/mimetic-worldbuilding-historical.html?m=1
(DIR) Post #9m17MaAOmK7rYD2uSO by a_breakin_glass@chaos.social
2019-08-18T17:06:05Z
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@garfiald honestly, when it comes to fiction I prefer plot and worldbuilding, but without denying thematic or allegorical meaning. it's more that you can't get by with themes that aren't suppported by wordbuilding or plot.
(DIR) Post #9m17MaZvFQXgpMzIEy by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:10:33Z
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@a_breakin_glass yes you can
(DIR) Post #9m17Os5h6kjjijw9q4 by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:10:58Z
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@a_breakin_glass to give only one example, have you heard of samuel beckett
(DIR) Post #9m17TKwjlXA0NAsPpo by remulacfrommars@radical.town
2019-08-18T17:11:46Z
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@garfiald this thread is very good. Boosting was not enough
(DIR) Post #9m17X1W3wstJGl9qYC by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:12:26Z
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@TeethTeethTeeth ill make sure to check it out thank you!
(DIR) Post #9m17Xn9MqZG30GuOq8 by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:12:35Z
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@remulacfrommars thank you so much will
(DIR) Post #9m17hAzDaqxBXKdVp2 by a_breakin_glass@chaos.social
2019-08-18T17:14:16Z
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@garfiald correction: you can, but a. I'm talking about my overall preferences, which are pretty arbitrary b. no-one said the plot had to be coherent ;) c. lucky was godot :^^^)
(DIR) Post #9m186Fif8KfFSHqkPA by gregory@animal.church
2019-08-18T17:12:32.269316Z
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@garfiald the word "creator" is itself a bourgeois construction, meant to separate the ones who create from the ones who consume. if you're not born a creator, you can't create, and this is partially what enables corporate media to be so successful. they are in on the joke.at least in my mind, readers and writers are closer to technicians -- practicing τέχνη -- making works of art from their labor. normalizing it as a type of activity rather than a "personality type" is crucial to empowering people to make more art.
(DIR) Post #9m186FyGCL8oEf9CiW by gregory@animal.church
2019-08-18T17:14:03.860032Z
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@garfiald the creation discourse is also the main one used to reify intellectual property, which in any sane world would be a total joke concept.
(DIR) Post #9m186GFz8RJr7dRMLQ by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T17:18:47Z
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@gregory i agree
(DIR) Post #9m1B5hfM2hvdhejSZU by wandrew@godforsaken.website
2019-08-18T17:52:18Z
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@garfiald the most obvious result of this being the way people get upset about spoilers', as though just knowing the plot of a film or tv show somehow diminishes it
(DIR) Post #9m1B8XbBvdAtLi8cW8 by tessaracked@witches.live
2019-08-18T17:52:48Z
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@garfiald I've started writing a piece of fiction set in a specific historical era and I'm intentionally incorporating at least one glaring anachronism, and I'm so worried about it being seen as an error or laziness. tbf "they won't get it" is my go-to excuse for abandoning writing projects, but I feel really good about this one and I want to complete it. I feel encouraged by your thread, so thank you.
(DIR) Post #9m1BZJ2WARmY0sgMwC by jk@mastodon.cloud
2019-08-18T17:57:37Z
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@garfiald I've studied creepypastas for the past few years and a big common thread is that they're clearly written by people who only know story structure from TV and movies, with little to no care for the art of composing a sentence. NoSleep stories getting optioned by studios just rewards this type of thin writing.
(DIR) Post #9m1CFaWbY2CWPBuuDg by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T18:05:19Z
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@tessaracked you should absolutely not let worries of that kind stop you! whatever the anachronism is, the Venn diagram intersection of people who will notice it AND of people who will think it's a mistake is likely to be very small
(DIR) Post #9m1E5XcvfS9wQiDDRg by nuel@cybre.space
2019-08-18T18:25:53Z
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@garfiald sigh... okay i'll read your brilliant thoughts again...
(DIR) Post #9m1EDGOHdS3dI02mcS by bobby_newmark@hackers.town
2019-08-18T18:27:16Z
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@garfiald PG-13, "thematic elements"
(DIR) Post #9m1EVIkxZuUbq5FgBM by nuel@cybre.space
2019-08-18T18:30:33Z
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@garfiald ok it was amazing again as always thank,s for writing
(DIR) Post #9m1Evu8jD6JPJK3RfU by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T18:35:23Z
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@nuel Thank you nuel I love you
(DIR) Post #9m1FB4ojnGRmlowGeW by nuel@cybre.space
2019-08-18T18:38:06Z
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@garfiald think it's also important to note though that obsessively looking for meaning is also limiting your view on what world building can do tho. sometimes (and if you're obsessed with The Value Of Art you don't like this one bit) world building in fiction can be incoherent, mean nothing, have no purpose or deeper intention or potential allegory behind it and still be important because it's Just Fun
(DIR) Post #9m1FUHvJI2NMv6ApkW by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-18T18:41:35Z
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@nuel I agree. Fundamentally what im trying to argue against is the reduction of fiction writing to coherent worldbuilding and nothing but coherent worldbuilding. This reduction is what removes the creation of a fictional world from the sphere of play and turns it into the sole technical skill that defines the production of art
(DIR) Post #9m1FWFy1XB2LQqNiuu by nuel@cybre.space
2019-08-18T18:41:21Z
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@garfiald and i think we're also conditioned to think that things that are Just Fun are bad because they don't correspond to a standardized way of evaluating their worth, but fiction that builds a nice atmosphere and lets me travel inside an intricate world can mean so much to me just because i appreciate the way it's done, coherent and meaningful or not
(DIR) Post #9m1FiNiQYFO0wErt0i by nuel@cybre.space
2019-08-18T18:44:07Z
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@garfiald something something that one meme with "every moment of authentic play is a blow against hierarchical power"
(DIR) Post #9m1Fr18pqnOjX4L1wu by nuel@cybre.space
2019-08-18T18:45:40Z
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@garfiald all this value of art stuff is super interesting i think because it really exposes some people's views on everything in the world: "if it doesn't contribute to the economy or science it's useless"
(DIR) Post #9m1mpVwxdCsYzWfuV6 by Jewbacchus@octodon.social
2019-08-19T00:55:10Z
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@garfiald i think every recent shows complete inability to have a satisfying ending is a symptom of this as well.
(DIR) Post #9m1n5rDeJx8RadH2eW by Jewbacchus@octodon.social
2019-08-19T00:58:05Z
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@garfiald i've got so many feelings about people forgetting that narrative was originally just a user-friendly data storage method and the aesthetic/functional ecosystem of a story doesn't have to be about lessons, morals or themes and abandoning oral tradition is a huge mistake given how good and specialized we are as a specie for it
(DIR) Post #9m1zcVoQ8BcmCgoK8m by acdw@writing.exchange
2019-08-19T03:18:28Z
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@garfiald thanks for this! It's giving me life. Is adorno someone who writes stiff like this? Are there other resources? This answers so many problems I didn't realize I had about aesthetics.
(DIR) Post #9m2PjBMPAOBLbnY1ei by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-19T08:11:02Z
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@acdw Adorno deals with issues like this, he's probably the most influential marxist writer on aesthetics since Benjamin. His writing is, however, quite inaccessible, so if that sounds like something that might turn you off, I would recommend the work of Sianne Ngai, an Adornian writer on aesthetics who focuses on extremely contemporary issues and works
(DIR) Post #9m2aqvhyLN3QsQX5P6 by gemlog@mastodonten.de
2019-08-19T10:15:40Z
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@garfiald I was with that entire manifesto up until the capitalist word of 'consumers' right at the end :-( @trebach @trevdev the neoliberal transformation of the education system into a worker-producing machine has turned the humanities into a societal embarrassment, a jumble of bizarre cultural detritus,...the cultural forces which work to undervalue less-profitable pursuits such as art are then internalised by creators and consumers of art
(DIR) Post #9m2ax0X1K7IhZdJAAq by garfiald@mastodon.social
2019-08-19T10:16:48Z
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@gemlog yeah in the moment i just couldnt think of a shorter way of saying "people who are encountering art" so i just went with the ideological default. i certainly wouldnt rewrite it with the same wording thats for sure
(DIR) Post #9m2hrrT8I3uRhIz05o by meena@glitch.social
2019-08-19T11:34:15Z
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@garfiald @a_breakin_glass i wouldn't say that allegory is entirely dead — it's just been reduced to a sledge hammer.similarly, we have a rich set of themes to choose from in modern media: dark, gritty, dark *and* gritty,,
(DIR) Post #9m2k4mWAD3Li0ygmsy by acdw@writing.exchange
2019-08-19T11:59:02Z
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@garfiald thank you! I will check both of them out.