Post 9kFS4FeqZPcDjfWC2a by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #9kFQK4ZdLfGO5GUpFY by Liberty4Masses@liberdon.com
2019-06-26T19:04:45Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
Poor #AOC.
(DIR) Post #9kFQXcoDNG2Y1jmKbA by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:07:10Z
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@Liberty4Masses I'm confused. What is she crying over her in the picture and how does it relate to the watch?
(DIR) Post #9kFS4FeqZPcDjfWC2a by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T19:24:01Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@freemo @Liberty4Masses she’s crying over the concentration camps at the border and apparently she can’t be outraged by said camps because she’s a social democrat who owns a nice watch.
(DIR) Post #9kFSGJ5FetahpscKPI by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:26:19Z
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@kaptainwalcottThe ICE detention camps you mean I think?I mean i have no love for AoC but that seems like a petty attack with no substance. Not sure if having a nice watch invalidates you crying over someones misfortunate.I guess i would get it if we were talking about her crying over a homeless person. Then the watch is relevant as it can be used to help the person. But in this context it just seems ike an irrelevant stab to me. @Liberty4Masses
(DIR) Post #9kFSWwkhwIM1V0wUfA by nerthos@shitposter.club
2019-06-26T19:29:30.959402Z
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@kaptainwalcott @liberty4masses @freemo >Concentration camps>Comparing improvised jailing for masses of illegal invaders that went in knowing full well they were committing a crime with political and ethnical persecution and exterminationYou're comparing oranges to softballs here
(DIR) Post #9kFShZZqRcEOo9vciu by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T19:31:15Z
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@freemo yeah as you said it’s a petty attack with no substance, like most of @Liberty4Masses‘s stuff against leftists. They still come out with good libertarian memes occasionally though.I’m a fan of AOC (although I don’t think her policies go far enough) & I think not calling the ICE detention camps what they are, concentration camps, is somewhat dishonest. The idea that one can’t simultaneously live in capitalism & critique capitalism is dumb to say the least.
(DIR) Post #9kFSlc17JaalX8bvwO by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:31:58Z
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@nerthos While I do agree that it isnt fair to call them concentration camps, they are detention centers or even jails, I do think the rest is an unfair characterization.Not everyone, or even most, of thepeople going through an ICE center is an "invader" and after "ethnic extermination". Thats just hyperbole just as bad as calling it as concentration camp. In fact I'd say worse.@Liberty4Masses @kaptainwalcott
(DIR) Post #9kFSvf0H4B5rgw0Yca by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:33:47Z
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@kaptainwalcott I'm not sure i agree that this is typical of Liberty. I mean a lot of the attacks I tend to agree with on liberals that ive seen from the account.. but dont hold me to that i dont see every post.Thats why this one shocked me. To me it seemed out of character to make an attack without any sense to it.@Liberty4Masses
(DIR) Post #9kFT06VIlKJS8ndifA by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T19:34:37Z
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@freemo@Liberty4Masses Yikes @nerthos you sound like my Klan relatives when you talk about immigrants as “invaders.” It shouldn’t matter whether somebody came here “legally” or not; they should still be treated like human beings and not left out in the desert to die in cages because of some stupid arbitrary line in the sand.
(DIR) Post #9kFTAtK66lrIRmXia0 by Liberty4Masses@liberdon.com
2019-06-26T19:36:41Z
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@freemo the expensive watch just points out how much of a hypocrite she is once again. Doesn’t mean it “invalidates” any point about the border camps, Walcott is an idiot. Although she was probably just putting on a show.
(DIR) Post #9kFTB1FmchA32iaNxw by anornymorse@shitposter.club
2019-06-26T19:36:45.540034Z
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@freemo @liberty4masses @kaptainwalcott These responses are examples of why the left can't meme.
(DIR) Post #9kFTD20slmVxyhZkau by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:36:56Z
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@kaptainwalcott How else could you effectively deport them without having some sort of a holding cell as an intermediate point? What way of deporting would be effective but not as abusive? Just better conditions in the detention center itself or more than that?@Liberty4Masses @nerthos
(DIR) Post #9kFTHpSSsQ3AUFlTJw by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:37:57Z
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@Liberty4Masses based on your other comment on your other thread i just think the meme delivers the message poorly. If i understand your intent the concentration camp really just distracts from the message. A more fitting meme would be her at some sort os pro-socialist rally wearing such a watch.
(DIR) Post #9kFTL9sTPjFwgZW9Sa by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T19:38:27Z
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@freemoI’d argue just don’t deport them at all. End deportations, abolish CBP, the DHS, and ICE, and get rid of the border entirely. As long as they’re not committing a violent crime against anybody, there’s no reason to deport or jail anybody.
(DIR) Post #9kFTLuDJ8bFoOVcRJw by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:38:28Z
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@anornymorse @kaptainwalcott @Liberty4Masses I beleive you meant that as a reply to something not its own post?
(DIR) Post #9kFTSBcxJ5uI8hbunw by ArdanianRight@freespeechextremist.com
2019-06-26T19:39:51.807212Z
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@kaptainwalcott @nerthos @Liberty4Masses @freemo Human or not, they can't come here. I want them deported as quickly and humanely as possible, but I sure as hell am not going to be morally blackmailed by the media and the people smuggling random kids for sympathy points. Just get the wall built and slow border crossings to a trickle so it'll be that much easier to humanely deport the people who do try to cross.
(DIR) Post #9kFTUTUhqhgM8EqKf2 by 1iceloops123@shitposter.club
2019-06-26T19:40:16.437899Z
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@nerthos @kaptainwalcott @freemo @liberty4masses all dems hate ice and I'm a retard who would support them because illegals are bad
(DIR) Post #9kFTUvHYXBngJYuE3E by Liberty4Masses@liberdon.com
2019-06-26T19:40:19Z
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@freemo that’s okay, not everyone has to love every meme I post, I’m cool with this 👌
(DIR) Post #9kFTXgIAiutkgzVdFg by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:40:38Z
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@kaptainwalcott Ahh I see, so your stance is just open borders (well almost open, just some basic checks make sure they arent violent)?I can relate in the sense that in an ideal world I would like open borders as well. However in practice I have come to the conclusion you cant have both an open-border and a welfare state. You can only pick one.Otherwise all the poor will always migrate freely to the countries with the best welfare and all the rich will migrate to the countries with the lowest taxes. The system breaks down and doesnt work.Open borders or welfare, we can only pick one IMO.
(DIR) Post #9kFTd0XqqpWKxBNoVU by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:41:45Z
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@Liberty4Masses Of course man, no one is trying to give you a hard time or call you wrong. Well I'm not. Just giving my impressions on the meme is all. A lot of what you post is pretty good, its all good.
(DIR) Post #9kFTdHBQzQgqYa1eQS by anornymorse@shitposter.club
2019-06-26T19:41:51.945509Z
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@freemo @liberty4masses @kaptainwalcott working fine on my end. Must be your crap instance.image.pngimage.png
(DIR) Post #9kFTddHuo0wj73E8a8 by 1iceloops123@shitposter.club
2019-06-26T19:41:55.765702Z
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@ArdanianRight @kaptainwalcott @liberty4masses @freemo @nerthos they are mostly Africans
(DIR) Post #9kFTiiJZXmRI9PQPOi by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:42:49Z
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@1iceloops123 Who are mostly africans? The ones being deported? First off how the hell is that even relevant, second do you have any source to back that up?@ArdanianRight @kaptainwalcott @Liberty4Masses @nerthos
(DIR) Post #9kFTlB8XM5WQ7URFwG by 1iceloops123@shitposter.club
2019-06-26T19:43:17.050394Z
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@freemo @nerthos @liberty4masses @kaptainwalcott @ArdanianRight the ones coming here
(DIR) Post #9kFTo97rHwJCkfXJQW by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T19:43:40Z
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@freemo I’m a libertarian and a communist, so I don’t trust the State to run either a border control/patrol system or a welfare state. I support welfare state policies while we’re stuck in a capitalist State system, but ideally that’d be decentralized and operated as mutual aid as much as possible in a better society than our own.
(DIR) Post #9kFTrLl2mNIknXOOzg by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:44:14Z
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@anornymorse Looks like you responded to a comment that was "deleted, edited, and reposted" .. it usually remains like that as your server holds a cached version you can still see. ITs normal, nothing to do with my server.@Liberty4Masses @kaptainwalcott
(DIR) Post #9kFTsPqf3X0jm4Woue by ArdanianRight@freespeechextremist.com
2019-06-26T19:44:36.226770Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@1iceloops123 @freemo @kaptainwalcott @Liberty4Masses @nerthos If they're coming by way of Mexico we send them to the Mexican government and they send them to wherever they came from originally.
(DIR) Post #9kFTtlsgcmXgOg7cjQ by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:44:49Z
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@1iceloops123 Thats relevant how? Who cares what their race is. Plus im not even sure its true.@ArdanianRight @kaptainwalcott @Liberty4Masses @nerthos
(DIR) Post #9kFU1qyhYe2UWPn0AC by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:46:05Z
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@kaptainwalcott Well in that case getting rid of welfare and borders works for me. Though I think id rather see good welfare with borders personally.
(DIR) Post #9kFUCank2izvXHmeXo by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T19:48:06Z
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@freemo if I had to choose, I’d endorse a welfare state, keep the border with loosened immigration laws, increase taxes on billionaires and corporations, and impose the kinds of sanctions Trump suggested on those businesses who attempt to leave the country.
(DIR) Post #9kFUs84nEReobqZ87c by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T19:55:32Z
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@kaptainwalcott While I'd personally love for something like that to work I dont think it would. Simply preventing companies from leaving at best slows the problem doesnt stop it. New companies stop forming in the USA and will form elsewhere. Investors wont continue to invest in american companies. And the companies forced to stay will refuse to pull in their overseas money to growth and instead start using their funds to improve the over seas office. Over time it may take longer but the companies still leave. Which is also why i thought trumps plan wasnt effective.I also dont think in general increasing taxes on the rich is needed. They are already insanely highly taxed. Thought we could use some fixes on the tax laws so they dont evade as much. For me poverty is a real problem but redistributing wealth to ever greater degrees isnt the best solution. For me I'd solve it through free education and focus on getting the poor educated and marketable. But thats a level of welfare most dont support (free higher education)..
(DIR) Post #9kFV5xHWAC3BBU6tRA by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T19:36:23Z
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@Liberty4Masses @nerthos @freemo when Holocaust survivors and Japanese internment camp survivors’re calling these things concentration camps, I think we should listen. May be an appeal to authority fallacy, but if anybody was able to correctly define a concentration camp, it’d be them.
(DIR) Post #9kFV5xeulClWM33ZuC by anornymorse@shitposter.club
2019-06-26T19:58:14.625579Z
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@kaptainwalcott @freemo @nerthos @liberty4masses uhm. So you missed the heads of the concentration camp museums sending AOC an invite, to show her what a *real* concentration camp looks like, and her turning them down? happened a couple days ago.
(DIR) Post #9kFVCRxb0uZQ4OtAps by anornymorse@shitposter.club
2019-06-26T19:59:25.507824Z
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@kaptainwalcott @nerthos @liberty4masses @freemo Look at this LARPer pretend he has relatives in the Ku Klux Klan.You sound just like the Afro-Phoenician merchants in my family when you pretend like that.
(DIR) Post #9kFVhoa6xUTBCnrNlQ by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:04:57Z
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@freemo I support free higher education as well, and I’m glad you do too. You may be correct about businesses leaving and lack of investment, you may not; it’d depend on the stability of the market and investors’ willingness to take risk. I’d argue that this plan, combined with a right of first purchase for employees, could offset corporate exit and simultaneous begin American socialist transformation by creating coops out of the businesses left behind by capital flight.
(DIR) Post #9kFWGqOAENTewiyVgu by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:11:15Z
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@kaptainwalcott There are a alot of what ifs and speculation there. Sadly thats also where the conversation is likely to break down since we probably each hold our views and it would be hard to make any solid scientific case for either without many hours of debate and studies and slides :)But it does seem we take very different approaches and goals.. You seem to want to see a transition into socialism. I want to see a transition away from pure socialism or capitalism and into a system that actually works (As i dont see either of those working in their pure forms).To give a oversimplification of where that is.. generally capitalism works when there is a free market with both finite and variable demandand supply. A true free market. This works for some things like iron or Pens,. However this breaks down when the market is no longer "free". an example of this being healthcare which has infinite demand and finit supply (a person will give up everything they own to live for jut one more day if they had to).
(DIR) Post #9kFWXjU39nIKSAmUj2 by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:14:20Z
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@freemo I’d recommend looking into the functioning of SFR Yugoslavia’s market socialism, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon’s mutualism, and participatory economics. They all emphasized a truly free or “freed” market with extensive if not complete worker control of the means of production. It keeps the benefits of a truly free market while removing the capitalist profit incentive and capital accumulation that prevent dialectical social evolution.
(DIR) Post #9kFWmENP5x9GJtaNg8 by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:16:53Z
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@kaptainwalcott I am familiar with the concept. Co-op run companies are in fact what i suggest for the healthcare solution portion. I do not however advocate for that model outside of healthcare. I do not think this should extend to too many other industries though.
(DIR) Post #9kFWvZbFYZFukVW796 by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:18:38Z
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@freemo personally I believe every industry should be entirely cooperatives, both because coops are (usually) inherently socialist and because they’re vastly more efficient than capitalist industries.https://www.thenation.com/article/worker-cooperatives-are-more-productive-than-normal-companies/
(DIR) Post #9kFXB7O8DLYPsynFXE by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:21:26Z
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@kaptainwalcott I dont see socialist as a desirable goal personally. So to me that isnt a plus. Its also not about effiency for me because in a free market you can still choose to run any company as a co-op it simply isnt enforced. So if they are truly more efficient then if you simply start a co-op it would naturally dominate over other companies. So the free market itself can and should in most business decide where co-ops work.Healthcare is an exception for me. In that regard i would enforce it as co-ops for the previously mentioned reasons.
(DIR) Post #9kFXQNe838RmeXYNo8 by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:24:12Z
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@freemo the problem with your logic there is ignoring context. The free market should ideally allow the most efficient to dominate, but the power existing companies already have to crush emerging competitors, the refusal of banks to lend startup funds to coops due to their focus not being on profitability, and coops almost always being small local affairs (Mondragón and REI, while interesting in their own right, are outliers) prevents said dominance in our markets.
(DIR) Post #9kFXjEwIe6a79Q2tvc by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:27:36Z
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@kaptainwalcott I dont buy that explanation. Co-ops have always been legal right along side traditional companies. Even in new markets where no existing companies existed (like when america began moving west)As for banks not loaning them, I dunno. Ive had to stand up in front of a lot of investors (not usually banks) to get money for companies I was starting. They care about my profits, my effiency, and how well I operate as a company. I cant imagine the investors I've dealt with in the past would care if it was a co-op or not if it was proven to work. They just want their money.
(DIR) Post #9kFYDBlB2055yg7juK by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:33:02Z
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@freemo let’s take the example you’ve used of America moving west. In the Old West it wasn’t mostly individually owned entrepreneurial ventures, but outposts of established corporations built near railroad depots, so it’s not a great comparison. What usually happens to coops in new markets is established corporations move in, drop their prices to drive the local coops out of business, then resume business as normal. Happens all the time today w/ coop groceries & Dollar General.
(DIR) Post #9kFYULXpu9cVFQ46pk by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:36:05Z
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@kaptainwalcott That also makes no sense to me because a business wouldhave no greater motivation to driver competition out of business when its a co-op than they would with a traditional company.Plus we also go back to the chicken and the egg problem. Co-ops and regular corps were on equal footing in my eyes when it comes to getting established in the first place. So for me the reason of the dominance of traditional corps isnt because of some intentional effort to kill the co-op.. it is simple because co-ops are not, in fact, generally superior to traditional companies. They are, only, in certain situations such as healthcare IMO.
(DIR) Post #9kFYfL8DmUMZ9TKHaq by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:34:42Z
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@freemo as for your investors, you’re an entrepreneur and your business’s main goal is to make a profit to pay said investors, no? That’s not a coop’s main goal, so it makes sense that investors would be far more likely to invest in your businesses than coop ones.
(DIR) Post #9kFYfLPElDyS0FHs7E by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:38:05Z
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@kaptainwalcott Well then there you have it. The reason co-ops dont get established, according to that answer is, they do not put a priority on paying back their loans they use to get started (aka, paying back investors). This they are less likely to get funding.I mean i cant say i think thtats bad. If you your priority is not to pay back your loans then you probably shouldnt be getting loans.
(DIR) Post #9kFYigJ1Vp01guyKfY by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:38:44Z
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@freemo coops didn’t exist even as an established concepts when companies started accumulating and consolidating. The cooperative movement only became a cohesive ideology after the Revolutions of 1848, so they already had plenty of competition to deal with. Plus, it’s not just coops that’re crushed by dominant corporations, but small- and medium-sized capitalist businesses. A coop just has less ability to get back on its feet than a capitalist business because there’s no profit.
(DIR) Post #9kFYt6RtATvtfU5XAu by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:40:33Z
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@freemo it’s not that coops don’t focus on paying back their loans (that’s actually the main money sink for most coops); it’s that they’re not trying to make a profit in the first place. Their purpose is to fill a present need as cheaply as possible and benefit their owner-workers, not to make a profit.
(DIR) Post #9kFZ0TenHMnTfqdnEm by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:41:54Z
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@kaptainwalcott well technically the first co-op in the usual sense was shortly before that date. But yes.Point is ther ehave been a TON of new companies in those 100+ years. If co-ops were good companies that were efficient and paid back their loans well I cant think of any reason they would establish and grow like any other country and if they were superior dominate the industry.i mean how many companies around today even existed before 1844... Many of the biggest I can think of were much later.
(DIR) Post #9kFZ9z7XfQlZrZcZJw by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:43:36Z
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@kaptainwalcott I cant think of any reason a co-op would be any less motivated to drive a profit. The more of a profit he company makes the more its owners makes, its owners are its employess so the more the employees make. Youd think they would want to maximize profit so they could maximize their paycheck
(DIR) Post #9kFZEzqcOL1HZ95wcS by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:44:30Z
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@freemo but there’s the kicker: they don’t get established and grow like capitalist businesses because, once again, that’s not the point. The Mondragón coop in Spain is huge, but that was a concerted effort to protect the coops that allied to make it from bigger businesses. Coop businesses don’t get dominated because they’re coops, they get dominated because they’re small in industries already dominated by giant corporations.
(DIR) Post #9kFZHA2dSiFjlDkQxE by gnuissance@liberdon.com
2019-06-26T20:45:01Z
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@Liberty4Masses Wow. She's wearing that watch to symbolize her crushing student loan debt. It's like Jesus walking with a cross really, except the cross is a status symbol.
(DIR) Post #9kFZNIcwSD5G7renIm by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:46:03Z
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@freemo making a profit would either require exploitation, which is nigh impossible for a worker-owned business, or selling at a markup, which coops don’t do because that’s not their purpose. They sell as near to cost as possible to provide the best and cheapest service for their communities.
(DIR) Post #9kFZhUJkhNeOAuJ9DE by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:49:40Z
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@kaptainwalcott Then you have a very different notion to co-op... to me a co-op is simply a company where the workers are automatically the business... There is nothing inherent in that to suggest they will be ethical, or try to see without a markup, or to be the cheapest. People, just like the corperations they run, want the most they can get for themselves usually (assuming it isnt illegal or extreme).When bobby sells susie his used car he doesnt give her half off (usually) just cause he can.The truth is a co-op will just like any company be just as willing to exploit and make a profit so long as the people being exploited arent its own workers/owners.Now you can define co-op legally in other ways I suppose. But thats not what i think of when i think of a co-op.
(DIR) Post #9kFZwQ5wgGorQEyCFk by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:52:22Z
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@kaptainwalcott Anyway thanks for the chat. I need to go to bed. But any replies i will continue reading and responding tomorrow. See ya for now.
(DIR) Post #9kFZxE7mfi00aQDN3o by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:52:33Z
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@freemo “The truth is a co-op will just like any company be just as willing to exploit and make a profit so long as the people being exploited arent its own workers/owners.”I meant exploitation in the Marxist sense of extraction of surplus values, which is impossible for coops given their nature, but you have a good point here that coops aren’t by default ethical and may screw over customers. This is why I prefer a planned economy where the ability to do so is eliminated.
(DIR) Post #9kFa0jqHCdWhpFhT2O by kaptainwalcott@mastodon.social
2019-06-26T20:53:11Z
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@freemo good night friend! Thank you for the stimulating conversation!
(DIR) Post #9kFa4MT03PbAUDXYUi by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-26T20:53:48Z
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@kaptainwalcott Thanks, any time. we may not always agree but respectful discourse is always welcome.
(DIR) Post #9kFadYBkSsIyyaFaXg by Algot@mastodon.art
2019-06-26T21:00:06Z
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@freemo @kaptainwalcott Thank you for doing it so that we were able to vicariously participate, too. Such thoughtful exchanges are what the Fediverse is capable of, and it was wonderful to see it in action.
(DIR) Post #9kGIvtGlDmYFYL9Nfk by freemo@qoto.org
2019-06-27T05:16:30Z
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@Algot Thanks, I agree. Its why I am here mostly.@kaptainwalcott