Post 9imMRPpajdxfduI8P2 by RandomDamage@mastodon.technology
(DIR) More posts by RandomDamage@mastodon.technology
(DIR) Post #9im87BPMXALTrNI8SO by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T18:01:58Z
9 likes, 30 repeats
Back when the GNU project was starting, among the first things they rewrote as Free Software were:- text editor / IDE (Emacs)- assembler, linker, and compiler- makeIOW, they made tools that they needed to further develop Free Software without relying on proprietary tools.They wanted their project to be self-hosting.Nowadays, we have more free software than ever, but we develop it using github and Discord...
(DIR) Post #9im9Umd0PtaLuVUT1E by alexcleac@mastodon.technology
2019-05-13T18:17:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Wolf480pl this is issue with people. People tend to stich with a single solution which everybody uses. There are lots of quailty source "forges" (i.e. Gitlab, Gitea, SourceHut), but people stick with GitHub for a reason that "everybody uses GitHub". At the moment, when everybody will use open and free forge. Especially when the #ForgeFed will be adopted.1/2
(DIR) Post #9im9gwt26MQ3CYmugK by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-05-13T18:19:39Z
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@Wolf480pl Yeah, what's worse is that decent free software alternatives to these exist. Even if you think IRC is too archaic and want something modern, there's Matrix/Riot, Gitter, RocketChat, Mattermost... For Git, there's GitLab CE, which even gives you CI integration, there's gogs/gitea....GNU had to develop everything themselves. Projects nowdays just need to adopt excellent free software that's already there. On a positive note, at least GNOME, VideoLAN & a few others self host...
(DIR) Post #9im9kaRBVcQcjdUreS by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-05-13T18:20:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Wolf480pl Unfortunately, we also lost Apache to GitHub completely this year.
(DIR) Post #9im9keqr67L6QPXQDg by paco@mastodon.org.uk
2019-05-13T17:07:41Z
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@Wolf480pl that’s right. Because back then the assumption was that everyone self hosted and provided their own infrastructure. It was a 100% CAPEX view of the world. That doesn’t cover OPEX at all. User, coder, and infra operator were all the same person. You can’t open source a service: only property. It is more complicated today.
(DIR) Post #9imBJn3qfNtpyZvpXE by alexcleac@mastodon.technology
2019-05-13T18:20:44Z
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@Wolf480pl But it is harder instant messagging systems. Every one of them has one issue that makes it harder to use.IRC - lack of history *on server*. I don't see reason to chat if the history is not saved even for several minutes.XMPP - it's high entrance point. Too much clients and servers supporting different featuresets.Matrix - it's pretty young and suffers from it.RocketChat - AFAIK it was buggy as hell, when last time I was using.Gitter is very tight coupled with non-free software
(DIR) Post #9imBJnvNSMiYeayZyC by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T18:37:51Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@alexcleac yeah, network effect.And you're right about the issues with current chat systems, but IMO that's a symptom, not a cause.If eg. Mozilla was trying to build a Free chat solution, as hard as Stallman et al. were trying to build a free compiler, we'd already have something that can compete with the proprietary chat apps.
(DIR) Post #9imBoN4nKLE6MYxMEy by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T18:43:04Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@paco but you can make it so that everyone can make a drop-in replacement for a service.It's pretty easy: just use an open protocol, for which there exists a Free Software implementation.But, today nobody wants to make protocols anymore. Everyone wants to make branded apps instead. Selling a branded "experience".
(DIR) Post #9imDCn13LwrtcNbTiS by paco@mastodon.org.uk
2019-05-13T17:46:22Z
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@Wolf480pl I agree with you, I do. But protocols don’t run themselves. You need kit and power and monitoring and connectivity and many other services in place before an open source protocol can benefit you.
(DIR) Post #9imDSFdTECpEiwwgbI by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T19:01:45Z
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@paco I disagree.For an open protocol to benefit you, you don't need to run your own server.What matters is that there are enough people out there ready to run a server and let you use it if your current service provider tries to do something evil.The very possibility that you could cheaply switch to a different provider will keep your provider from trying anything funny.
(DIR) Post #9imDbjy1pEeJOz5PHM by aa@social.librem.one
2019-05-13T19:03:31Z
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@Wolf480pl "open source" developers far out weights free software developers, including blobs in Linux kernel no longer makes the crowd angry, and companies stumps GPL with money. The software might be widely adapted, but the ideals struggle.
(DIR) Post #9imEkH8WUEP6Xsd2GG by skrlet13@mastodon.social
2019-05-13T19:16:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Wolf480plTo be fair, not everybody can selfhost, because they don't have enough money
(DIR) Post #9imFNIKtxadJYm1Ztg by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T19:23:18Z
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@skrlet13 eh, the ambiguity of "self-hosting"...I meant "self-hosting" in the sense a compiler can be self-hosting. So for example, let's say your project uses IRC for chat.I'm not saying that you should host your own IRC server for that project. What I'm saying is, you should have the source code of some IRC server so that you can quickly spin up a temporary one whenever your current host decides to screw you over.
(DIR) Post #9imFUYjbODm0Rh2esC by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-05-13T19:24:36Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@MatejLach @Wolf480pl Not to mention Canonical, FreeDesktop.Org, & GNU.Seriously if you want to know how your OS works, the vast majority of that code is not on GitHub.
(DIR) Post #9imFdpAje0XQ249QrA by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T19:26:18Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@alcinnz @MatejLach Yet.I mean, it's not as bad as it could be, but it's definitely going in the wrong direction.
(DIR) Post #9imGWQQ1NX4bBiKw8e by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-05-13T19:36:10Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@Wolf480pl @MatejLach Funny story with the FreeDesktop.Org community, not too long ago they were slowly switching to GitHub from CGit. Now they're rapidly adopting self-hosted GitLab and are no longer using GitHub.
(DIR) Post #9imGwV4IiJUZ8bbvHM by khimaros@mastodon.social
2019-05-13T19:40:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Wolf480pl @skrlet13 git-ssb is usable today.
(DIR) Post #9imHaS3vJFypOjU65I by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2019-05-13T19:47:14Z
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@Wolf480plI prefer that projects self-host and own our own data. OTOH the effort of self-hosting services (SCM, chat, lists, ...) with setup + maintenance + custodial cost is not null for projects, and I think the net effect of free services like GitHub, gitlab.com, riseup is positive for OSS.For those who just want to dip a toe in contribution / offering a project, it's good to have an entry point that doesn't involve becoming a sysadmin.
(DIR) Post #9imI0UM9P3ZS2eQRZg by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T19:52:48Z
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@xurizaemon yeah, but then, I wouldn't put freenode and riseup in the same bin as discord and github.
(DIR) Post #9imMBXy4iO4WFGh10q by RandomDamage@mastodon.technology
2019-05-13T20:33:22Z
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@alexcleac @Wolf480pl network effects are a very real and very dangerous thing.If only there were some possible way to cap usage of any particular instance at something under a million users, no matter the technology.
(DIR) Post #9imMBYF5h7gP62ebXE by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T20:39:39Z
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@RandomDamage @alexcleac Well, one way is to make sure your software doesn't scale vertically.But then, it'd be hard to make a protocol such that no implementation could ever possibly scale vertically.And even if it was possible, I'd feel bad for designing a protocol this way.The software is supposed to be a tool in user's hand, not a way for its author to control the users.
(DIR) Post #9imMIeo3gj5tTuOk7s by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T20:40:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@RandomDamage @alexcleac I could make a protocol with a 10-bit number serving as user id, so that there can't be more than 1024 users on a single domain.But that'd be stupid and unethical.
(DIR) Post #9imMRPpajdxfduI8P2 by RandomDamage@mastodon.technology
2019-05-13T20:42:31Z
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@Wolf480pl @alexcleac and ineffective.I meant for *any* instance of *any* protocol to max out at a million users, even e-mail.Not possible, of course, but it would be so much healthier than what we've got.
(DIR) Post #9imMrGWByzv0HwXmDY by jeffalyanak@social.rights.ninja
2019-05-13T20:47:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Wolf480plThe GNU project uses Discord and Github?
(DIR) Post #9imN7KXMoAfDO0kmKO by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T20:50:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffalyanak No, as far as I know it doesn't.I meant that "we", as in, the FOSS developers, and to a certain extent, spiritual successors of GNU.
(DIR) Post #9imNFrknC4j2iq6TCK by kurisu@iscute.moe
2019-05-13T20:51:38.513869Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Wolf480pl the real shit is still done on mailing lists and irc
(DIR) Post #9imNMPsdE2EaIitSme by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T20:52:46Z
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@kurisu yes, but Mozilla's move to Discord has me worried that there will be less and less of it...
(DIR) Post #9imNN3VzrbtbE6bx3Y by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2019-05-13T20:52:56.897407Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Wolf480pl The github bit is sadly very popular (I have a pile of stuff still using it and of course github offers no choice at all).But the discord one isn't really, the only ones that I know are on discord for their main usage is osu! (game, so understandable), Mastodon (wtf) and Mozilla (fuck).Reminder: Most linux distros have a discord guild but it's only for Public Relations and isn't expected for development at all.
(DIR) Post #9imNPJlmOthqDb4X5s by kurisu@iscute.moe
2019-05-13T20:53:21.329118Z
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@Wolf480pl are they actually tho?
(DIR) Post #9imNfaK0d01SBeq6OO by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2019-05-13T20:56:12Z
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@Wolf480plAgreed! ++ to mention Freenode as well.Hosting should be a careful conscious choice for projects. All options hv issues! Yay!- Commercial services will mine data for sure (& whether paid not).- Community/co-op services may have no more protection against Bad Things eg shutdown, failure, pivot, ???- "Security team is volunteers" should factor into threat model ("... is waged" also not magic)- Jurisdiction- Monoculture risk vs a11y of familiar to communityThat's my 500
(DIR) Post #9imOLnfROp8pjxzfd2 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T21:03:51Z
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@xurizaemon my point is, there's always a chance the provider will disappear or decide to.screw you over. But if everyone can host a service which is mostly the same, speaks the same protocol, uses the same data format, etc. then it doesn't hurt you.IOW, avoid vendor lock-in.
(DIR) Post #9imOW5ZTgjSaAE6uuW by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2019-05-13T21:05:43Z
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@Wolf480plAgree :) owning your own stuff > not, for sure!
(DIR) Post #9imOhZ8884dt1an88O by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T21:07:47Z
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@kurisu I don't know, really. But considering how hard it is to get today's youth to use IRC, I'm worried what will happen when the old guard retires.When I was in high school, even silly minecraft mods would use IRC. IRC was where people learned to collaborate on a project. Today, that's all on Discord.
(DIR) Post #9imPEP9cEzaPdn947M by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T21:13:40Z
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@lanodan I'm also thinking of how people get into FOSS in the first place, and a large part of that is game modding. And these projects tend to use Discord a lot, AFAIK. Maybe I'm wronv, maybe I'm biased, but the Mozilla thing is IMO a sign that it's not just gamers, and that things are going - even if slowly - in the wrong direction.
(DIR) Post #9imPZCyuh3WLyA3jX6 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2019-05-13T21:17:33.171436Z
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@Wolf480pl Well I did game modding before Discord existed (so a lot of IRC and some Forums) and stopped about when it was created (unrelated tho), so maybe this is why I don't see it the same way.And I'll definitely be this one in XKCD with an IRC/XMPP gateway/bridge just because their clients sucks.
(DIR) Post #9imQ8GUxbrJX0olVfk by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-13T21:23:40Z
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@RandomDamage @alexcleac hm, I know only one mechanism that would allow sth like that to apply to all past and future protocols: law.Ofc it may be a vefy bad idea, but I think sth like Article 13 but without upload filters could have a similar effect... something that exponentailly increases the probability of getting sued as you gain more users...
(DIR) Post #9imT3bebpGQT2WkT8C by RandomDamage@mastodon.technology
2019-05-13T21:56:39Z
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@Wolf480pl @alexcleac it might. Of course existing big sites would fight it tooth and claw.
(DIR) Post #9imrOMqKUAPm5MfAvI by wzqtparor@pawoo.net
2019-05-14T02:21:02Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Linux kernel development relied on BitKeeper since 2002, but many developers were angry about it.That was why Linus Torvalds created git in 2005.I think many developers still use pure git and IRC, both are free.github and Discord are not necessary.@lanodan @Wolf480pl
(DIR) Post #9imrON7LSu1ew8clRg by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2019-05-14T02:29:19.950426Z
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@wzqtparor @Wolf480pl Yeah, but if you take github (I can't do even a quite loose stat on discord), 26.56% of software in gentoo had a github in 2018-09-23 ( https://hacktivis.me/home ).Now it’s 27.24%./usr/portage $ grep -l 'github' -r */*/metadata.xml | wc -l5330/usr/portage $ find */*/metadata.xml | wc -l19569/usr/portage $ bc -l(5330/19569)*10027.23695641064949665200
(DIR) Post #9imrhPv7GiyP8CzAqe by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2019-05-14T02:32:47.140705Z
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@wzqtparor @Wolf480pl Also sigthly wrong link, sorry: https://hacktivis.me/articles/My%20issue%20with%20Github%20(and%20Microsoft%20buying%20it)
(DIR) Post #9in4PbhI2gQLqgM9sO by alexcleac@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T04:54:42Z
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@Wolf480pl I think even if Mozilla started doing this, there is a non zero (and pretty high) that it wont make it, a least from the first try. Do you remember the Firefox OS? I am afraid that the user base would be pretty low.However it would be a nice first step out of a FOSS info bubble towards other people. But it is the hard way. This could also be done the way guys at purism did with librem one 😉
(DIR) Post #9in8Koax3q22DeMVzE by KekunPlazas@mamot.fr
2019-05-14T05:39:08Z
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@Wolf480plI'm glad @gnome keeps itself to these high standards.
(DIR) Post #9in93P4Gohnw4zKxQO by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T05:47:11Z
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@wzqtparor @lanodan yeah, but I've had a hard time convincing my peers to use IRC. Never tried to get them to.use git-send-email workflow, buf I probably wouldn't be very successful either. And if the young all use proprietary tools, what's gonna happen when the old devs retire?
(DIR) Post #9in9MDPWNlcVQYFOQi by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2019-05-14T05:50:38.221826Z
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@Wolf480pl @wzqtparor I think it's more going to be that core tools and some nerds ones are stuck on CVS/SVN and pure git.And new ones are stuck on github or whatever thing which will go down in less than 10 years.
(DIR) Post #9in9MXmEf1fman1obw by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T05:50:40Z
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@alexcleac But the goal would be to make a chat _for_ the FOSS bubble. Even if only Mozilla devs use it, that's already a success, if it means they don't depend on Discord.
(DIR) Post #9iqp0iPf9bxDMIAh6G by mike@x0r.be
2019-05-14T09:21:58Z
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@Wolf480pl In OpenBSD we use self hosted CVS and mailing lists. You're welcome to participate! (-;
(DIR) Post #9iqp0ihO5i8GFGSqjA by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:20:59Z
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@mike yeah, and Linux uses self-hosted git and mailing lists, and GNU is AFAIK similar.But this is only a small part of the picture.How much software that you use on a daily basis is from the ports tree?How many of those projects decided that mailing lists are not sufficient for them?And of those who did, how many started using proprietary services, like github issues or Slack or Discord, to coordinate the development?
(DIR) Post #9iqp2VVs5PsHvgvigi by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:27:01Z
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@mike Of course that number will vary depending on a particular project, but Mozilla with its recent move to Discord is IMO a big sign that things are moving in the wrong direction.
(DIR) Post #9iqp7M6QV9N0BwL9Jg by moulinux@mastodon.etalab.gouv.fr
2019-05-14T12:20:49Z
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@Wolf480pl you could have mention #VScode.. Even if free sotware developpers has lots of alternatives...
(DIR) Post #9iqpfGv8H6txxuEKBM by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T07:49:40.855406Z
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@alexcleac @Wolf480pl with messaging, compromises have to be made right now. It’s unfortunate. I’m enjoying Matrix. IRC has always been a ghost town. That’s not going to change. XMPP has always been a skeleton when you need a body. We need to get over clinging to ancient tech like those two.
(DIR) Post #9iqpfHM4ewS7JSpqAy by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T08:03:00Z
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@jack @alexcleac I'm not sure what you mean by ghost town, but from my experience, IRC was very lively 10 years ago.Either way, it's clear that these days we need something better than that.My problem is that instead of being like "IRC is no longer sufficient for our project, let's make something better", many FOSS projects are like "IRC is no longer sufficient for our project, let's use some proprietary chat app instead".Which is the opposite of what GNU was doing back then.
(DIR) Post #9iqpfHYptUf1x2o24G by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T08:07:06.063586Z
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@Wolf480pl @alexcleac I’d love it if there were a great open source chat app that was accessible, fast, and not entirely pointless. Matrix is the closest thing to that I’ve ever used.
(DIR) Post #9iqpfHo4yor0iJwCpM by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T08:09:37Z
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@jack @alexcleac >matrix>fast
(DIR) Post #9iqpfI3K492zTb4NaS by alexcleac@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T08:23:52Z
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@Wolf480pl @jack well, nobody can stop you from developing your own server. In fact, I want to try making a matrix server in scala when I have a bit more of free time :)
(DIR) Post #9iqpfIBTZpZLssstIO by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T08:32:23Z
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@alexcleac @jack I've heard it's unscalable at protocol level...
(DIR) Post #9iqpfILkxbnCOlh6Js by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T08:34:03.693683Z
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@Wolf480pl @alexcleac I’m not as savvy as I once was with this stuff, so that is quite possibly the case. It’s just kind of awful to need so many apps for messaging just to stay in touch with an average number of friends and family.
(DIR) Post #9iqpfIUyPLAIrM0Sga by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T10:11:09Z
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@jack @alexcleac IMO, this is better than "one IM to rule them all".Diversity and healthy competition are good things.Where I live, there's an expectation that "everyone is on facebook", and when you're that one guy who is not on facebook, you're basically a second-class citizen.That sucks.Please don't teach your friends to expect that everyone uses the same communication medium.
(DIR) Post #9iqpfImLMl3ljE8KlE by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T10:18:06.663833Z
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@Wolf480pl @alexcleac what I’d like to see is something like Federation. Where interaction isn’t server/client dependent.
(DIR) Post #9iqpfJ30MoO4YtvdjM by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:28:55Z
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@jack @alexcleac yes, a federated protocol would definitely help, but IMO that's only part of the solution.
(DIR) Post #9iqqDGjfT8GfEn4vya by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:32:35Z
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@moulinux Isn't VSCode actually open-source tho...
(DIR) Post #9iqqDGrT08VRcyjA8G by kurisu@iscute.moe
2019-05-14T12:34:24.759001Z
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@Wolf480pl @moulinux it's open source but if you build it yourself you can't call it vscode lol
(DIR) Post #9iqqDGx8f32juZNgyO by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:34:46Z
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@kurisu @moulinux trademarks?Sounds like Firefox...
(DIR) Post #9iqqQCLz4XrDPaALPE by moulinux@mastodon.etalab.gouv.fr
2019-05-14T12:36:01Z
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@Wolf480pl @kurisu the code is #opensource, but the binary is not.. really few people i guess are compiling the software or using vscodium.. so my toot..
(DIR) Post #9iqqQCXgN3DNzrdgdk by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:37:29Z
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@moulinux @kurisu Oh, so have more examples, thanks!I didn't want to use it in my original post, because it was kinda a borderline case, and I wasn't sure about the details.
(DIR) Post #9iqrYbZjHZSVuFASLQ by kurisu@iscute.moe
2019-05-14T12:35:33.869641Z
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@Wolf480pl @moulinux except more, because mozilla will allow you to call an unmodified unpatched build firefox just fine
(DIR) Post #9iqrYboGPX5KdJy400 by quad@weeaboo.space
2019-05-14T12:37:21.292962Z
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@kurisu @Wolf480pl @moulinux Isn't this bs also why vscode uses its own repos instead of being provided in distro repos.
(DIR) Post #9iqrYc2RYoQZLIbO6K by quad@weeaboo.space
2019-05-14T12:41:40.070753Z
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@kurisu @Wolf480pl @moulinux .NET Core does the same faik. If you want to actually call your package "dotnet", it has to be the binary downloaded from https://dotnet.microsoft.com/learn/dotnet/hello-world-tutorial/install and then repackaged or something.Hence why distros who build all packages from source, or have a separate optional nonfree repo, don't provide dotnet packages. Because it's basically non-free software if you want to actually call the package dotnet
(DIR) Post #9iqrYcBJ1rW5mmkSum by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:47:08Z
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@quad @kurisu @moulinux ouch.
(DIR) Post #9iqs6k7a0zpIFzHMsi by quad@weeaboo.space
2019-05-14T12:12:10.039041Z
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@Wolf480pl A big issue is probably instant gratification.If they could make a top-notch piece of software in 6 months, but it took 3 months to get the initial version working.Or if they could build it using existing tools over 6 months, but have the initial version ready after a week or two.Then most people would probably chose the latter one. Having to spend a lot of time just to see your project start to sprout is one of the more infuriating and discouraging parts of coding.
(DIR) Post #9iqs6kIZM8cIo4Q90i by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:59:07Z
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@quad yeah, I guess in the 80s, people had a longer attention span...
(DIR) Post #9iquM6NxiefRYnORwu by penguin42@mastodon.org.uk
2019-05-14T12:04:22Z
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@Wolf480pl plenty are using gitlab now (often hosting themselves) rather than github - so at least that side is easily soluble.
(DIR) Post #9ir7wvN0w3upW1q2me by s_ol@merveilles.town
2019-05-13T22:56:16Z
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@alexcleac@Wolf480plThanks for mentioning @forgefed - very excited about that!What I would like to see is a low-footprint implementation with minimal features (single-user; leaves repo access etc to existing tools like gitolite). Maybe it shouldn't even have a web frontend and just pub to ActivityPub and forward Sub to email?
(DIR) Post #9ir7wvizcLUqcC7b2e by s_ol@merveilles.town
2019-05-13T22:56:48Z
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@alexcleac @Wolf480pl @forgefedI need to learn a low more about ActivityPub but I might get into this :)
(DIR) Post #9ir84REcrU5wMxUvPE by SuperFloppies@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T12:16:58Z
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@jack @alexcleac @Wolf480pl I keep toying with the idea of a lightweight general-purpose messaging network. My problem, as always, is one of time.Making a system that is decentralized, secure, and lightweight (in terms of network usage) is an extremely difficult thing to accomplish; most projects or protocols only place value on two of the three as a result.
(DIR) Post #9ir84RvAJK7eUtOtiC by alexcleac@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T12:22:37Z
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@SuperFloppies @jack @Wolf480pl isn’t there a theorem telling that you cannot get fast, reliable and easy to support system whatever you do?
(DIR) Post #9ir84SOEZFNHx3071M by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T12:23:26.164738Z
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@alexcleac @Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies If not, there should be.
(DIR) Post #9ir84Sj9JU6Yzumoca by alexcleac@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T12:24:40Z
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@jack @SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl in fact there is :) But for databases :)
(DIR) Post #9ir84T4Q2P7Q3sjnm4 by SuperFloppies@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T12:39:58Z
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@alexcleac @jack @Wolf480pl It’s a general principle. Reliability costs performance, and security requires trust analysis which incurs overhead. I can process half a billion transactions a second in a system written in assembler that doesn’t care about networking or security. That doesn’t make it good.But how much you want to bet that it’d still sell well? “Half a billion txns/sec on a four year old system! Buy now! Be faster than everyone else!”
(DIR) Post #9ir84TJJ931oo3hgyu by SuperFloppies@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T12:40:52Z
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@alexcleac @jack @Wolf480pl Furthermore, consistency is always eventual between multiple systems, just on a timescale small enough that we often do not really see it.
(DIR) Post #9ir84TZy96M7djUzx2 by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T12:42:36.657156Z
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@SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl @alexcleac all fair points.
(DIR) Post #9ir84Trh5CXAWhn9Zw by SuperFloppies@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T12:44:53Z
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@jack @alexcleac @Wolf480pl Makes me want to try to get a bunch of people together to create the “Sane Software Alliance,” promising to make high-quality, high-performance, secure systems without bloat.Someone pass the pipe... I’m clearly in enough discomfort that I’m spewing BS...
(DIR) Post #9ir9ZHj8MUc3oQ2Z5k by s_ol@merveilles.town
2019-05-14T16:06:56Z
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@byllgrim@alexcleac @Wolf480pl @forgefedIf you can think of a platform we can easily collaborate I would be in for that :)I guess the most useful thing would be brainstorming which and where the interfaces to other pieces of software should be / how to modularize the whole thing.
(DIR) Post #9ir9jrYrz8BbqYHdAW by SuperFloppies@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T15:58:35Z
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@byllgrim Harder than most devs are willing.I am working on the underlying kit, already; it can do some amazing things in just 30k of binary code. I just can’t publish it until I decide wtf license I want to use on it. Too many choices and subtle differences between them. But unwise to write yet another license.
(DIR) Post #9irH21gdmFiM8pWgNM by FimbulFlower@niu.moe
2019-05-14T08:21:49Z
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@Wolf480pl there's matrix and riot instead of discord.
(DIR) Post #9irH22AlyDojeHckLI by lorabe@quey.org
2019-05-14T17:29:38Z
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@FimbulFlower @Wolf480pl There's GNU Jami.I mean... GNU is not dead, and has fancy projects.
(DIR) Post #9irH22aIRKEYvRZ87s by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T17:30:42Z
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@lorabe @FimbulFlower but are we following GNU's example in our projects?
(DIR) Post #9irH3H1uDZTc154FiC by lorabe@quey.org
2019-05-14T17:24:08Z
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@Wolf480pl @jeffalyanak i think open source licenses such as mit and bsd killed free software fundamentals (privacy).
(DIR) Post #9iraW5kH9MtKXtHBlg by alexcleac@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T07:07:08Z
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@Wolf480pl yeah, that's a good reasoning :)
(DIR) Post #9ireoMLGaBFH33XpJI by usul@mamot.fr
2019-05-14T07:58:51Z
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@Wolf480pl you forget kermit
(DIR) Post #9irhMLYkCN2mNKBOhk by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T08:08:23Z
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@usulYeah it all happened before I was born, so all I know about that period comes from legends and Wikipedia.Was kermit a file transfer protocol?
(DIR) Post #9irhMLl9SEy6znzJ2m by usul@mamot.fr
2019-05-14T08:11:28Z
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@Wolf480pl and a terminal emulator
(DIR) Post #9irj8bxwbR2774Y33g by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-05-14T07:57:59Z
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@Wolf480pl Because if you want to build something "new" and do have limited time at hand, you probably don't want to waste your limited resources for running services you need to get work done. 😉 This is something we can only fix by providing FLOSS developers with *working* (as in: running) alternatives on par with github or discord.
(DIR) Post #9irj8c9dtwOHhM1OIC by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T08:06:27Z
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@z428 GNU devs also had limited time, and yet they started by building tools they needed to get work done.IMO the problem isn't that we have chat software that nobody wants to run on their server. Freenode is a thing. OFTC is a thing.The problem is that we don't have chat software that the likes of Freenode or OFTC could run to compete with Discord et al.
(DIR) Post #9irj8cIVMzTo8qAT6e by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-05-14T08:42:42Z
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@Wolf480pl Plus: If looking at GNU itself, this is also a bit too simplified. 😉 If it wasn't for projects such as the Linux kernel (which wasn't a GNU project initially) or the X11 windowing system, GNU still would be nowhere near "usable software". GNU/Hurd, anyone? 😉
(DIR) Post #9irjcZiFXoTCoRUkYC by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-05-14T08:41:34Z
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@Wolf480pl Yes. That's the point. But that's the typical problem: It's way easier to start over and write yet another XMPP client (and be it because the programming languages all other projects use isn't your primary choice or because you dislike the governance model) rather than making one or two that are *really really good*. 😐
(DIR) Post #9is1dcYIGsnt5EUDoW by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T08:44:31.818428Z
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@Wolf480pl @alexcleac was this not a Mozilla goal several years ago? An integrated chat solution for FF and TB?
(DIR) Post #9is1dctD17XA86GvPk by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:10:28Z
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@jack @alexcleac I don't know... I don't even know whether Mozilla's stated goals are still actually their goals...
(DIR) Post #9is1faOxEpp6zb3UC8 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-14T12:09:15Z
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@z428 well, I've heard that back in the day, if you had a box running Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, or some other proprietary unix, one of the the first things you'd do is install GNU tools (coreutils, tar, etc) because they were so much better and more convenient than the ones provided with the system.
(DIR) Post #9is2DWhTVQnXMJtzAe by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-05-14T12:14:47Z
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@Wolf480pl I actually remember the same on Windows NT with cygwin, though possibly a bit later. Yet, again, "just"(...) a lot of small day-to-day working tools mainly for admins. No full operating system, and hardly *end-user* tools.
(DIR) Post #9iusT0Lz7ad3bUTJo0 by pnathan@mastodon.social
2019-05-17T23:19:03Z
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@Wolf480pl the ideology is *gratis* source, not *libre* source.MIT/CC0 vs GPL
(DIR) Post #9ivVBfPXd3BvwNrK9w by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-18T06:32:56Z
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@pnathan OpenBSD developers would disagree.
(DIR) Post #9j3wyLWYblfyTmFyF6 by fr33domlover@todon.nl
2019-05-17T10:03:13Z
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@s_ol @byllgrim @alexcleac @Wolf480plForgeFed has a forum (https://socialhub.network/c/forgefed) and the Git repo has a wiki, unused so far but you can definitely use it (https://notabug.org/peers/forgefed/wiki). And you could also open issues on the repo.The forum is probably the best place for brainstorming and ideas :)
(DIR) Post #9j8R8iw8BrctFEvHBQ by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T12:31:53.784816Z
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@Wolf480pl @alexcleac Oh, it definitely needs voice, video, channels, integration of other services. My ideal would function is a similar method to discord, or slack, but be open source, and decentralized.
(DIR) Post #9j8R8jD9AbEm60srho by SuperFloppies@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T13:03:51Z
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@jack @alexcleac @Wolf480pl Bingo.What’s needed is an IRC-like network that is binary, self-forming, and provides end-to-end security. If it self-organizes in a mesh, then only endpoints with SPOFs will be unreliable.
(DIR) Post #9j8R8jSkEbiKsOBK1A by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T13:04:35.464651Z
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@SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl @alexcleac that’d be just about right.
(DIR) Post #9j8R8jjlDLKDjA8uXY by SuperFloppies@mastodon.technology
2019-05-14T13:07:35Z
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@jack @alexcleac @Wolf480pl It can be done!But someone will probably do it in Ruby with XML and JSON at multiple points in the system. Ideally what I’m talking about would be a ~500 KB or less dæmon.
(DIR) Post #9j8R8k2C6o4QeKldGy by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-14T13:25:57.021534Z
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@SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl @alexcleac has anyone mentioned Mattermost? It was just recommended to me
(DIR) Post #9j8R8kBPYXRX6v4zdg by Tarheel@mastodon.technology
2019-05-24T12:13:33Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl What's wrong with email?
(DIR) Post #9j8R8kR0cXv5tINRx2 by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T12:18:48.573323Z
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@Tarheel @Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac well, aside from it being hackable at every turn, email has become a Pandora’s box for average people. Everything wants it and wants to fill it full of shit and people seldom exchange theirs outside of other social media.
(DIR) Post #9j8RtlfJrWPPJoUXSa by Tarheel@mastodon.technology
2019-05-24T12:26:37Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl Not following the "Pandora's box" or hackability thing. Raw email bad, sure, but email lists you have to register for, digests, filters? You get archiving, threading, pretty quick turnaround (a little slow is actually good, imo). Seems like, by the time open, federated chat has finally been perfected, we'll be looking at email.
(DIR) Post #9j8S7lWpAVMcwpC0jA by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T12:29:52.018530Z
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@Tarheel @Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac its not a bad point. I expect a resurgence in email, once it’s been upped a bit by a good way for threading. I’ve tried a bunch, and they just don’t provide the necessary awareness or ability yet. Another rejuvenation like the one gmail started would be wonderful.
(DIR) Post #9j8Xkvhdm0sXZGkK5A by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-24T13:32:41Z
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@Tarheel @jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies - it has high latency- it has spam filters, which amke it unreliable
(DIR) Post #9j8XxIn9ks1qeUE3fM by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T13:35:13.163439Z
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@Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac @Tarheel yes. But it could be made reliable again.
(DIR) Post #9j8Y8hbDrTZOmD50im by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-24T13:37:13Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Tarheel Yes, but then you still have high latency, not to mention a lot of cruft accumulated in the protocol over decades.
(DIR) Post #9j8YKt5SyZMzse2KBM by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T13:39:28.029522Z
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@Wolf480pl @Tarheel @SuperFloppies @alexcleac the latency seems like the only really unfixable issue. As the current protocols work there’s no way around it. I dunno. I think I can see a protocol changes working though. .
(DIR) Post #9j8acz6TXuvPf0GWtE by SuperFloppies@mastodon.technology
2019-05-24T14:04:39Z
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@jack @alexcleac @Tarheel @Wolf480pl A replacement for the current Internet mail system is something I’d very much like to see. One which reduces substantially or even eliminates the spam problem, though that is unlikely to happen.
(DIR) Post #9j8apHUwyrGmBZZppY by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T14:07:22.296898Z
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@SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl @Tarheel @alexcleac id just like to see better filtering/threading. Customizable. A way to really deal with it. Highlight the important things, make them still noticeable after sorting to tags. A tighter protocol with reliable encryption.
(DIR) Post #9j8gMiZ5rpVnSWHIzw by Tarheel@mastodon.technology
2019-05-24T15:05:38Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl Well, real federation will be open to different implementations, and implementations always differ, so consistency will always be a challenge, but, given that, certain standards should be expected (I'm thinking of encryption and proper setting In-Reply-To headers).Gmail's filtering/tagging is really decent, if you drill down. You can put multiple tags on a msg, including your own bright red "IMPORTANTE" tag, if you want.Seems like a filter by...
(DIR) Post #9j8gbjVOeYjqiehzzU by Tarheel@mastodon.technology
2019-05-24T15:09:23Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl ...ancestor Message-ID shouldn't be that hard to implement, so you could/should be able to easily suppress one branch of a discussion that's gone bad, kind of like in Usenet (which is pretty email-ish, come to think of it).A while back, everybody was all "SpamAssassin!" and "Bayesian filters!", but I'm not sure why that seems to have died away. Either it works and is no longer remarkable, or there's something wrong, or I haven't been paying attn or...
(DIR) Post #9j8gbjm3ec49YKVIxc by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-24T15:12:06Z
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@Tarheel @jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies It turned into "the email provider runs all those statistical filters for you, you don't even need to be aware of it". Except when sometimes it classifies as spam something you actually wanted... "oh well, guess email is unreliable".Also, the new term for "statistics" is "Machine Learning".
(DIR) Post #9j8gcEIi9m0kEI0o1Q by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T15:12:14.955193Z
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@Tarheel @Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac that’s true. It’s just that at one time, gmail was revolutionary. And it’s kinda done nothing lately. If you miss a little time and you’ve only set up a few labels etc, you can come back to a train wreck. I loved it, participated in the beta. Now it’s just my junk catcher. No professional or family emails.
(DIR) Post #9j8gcjWG5SGd3HaYwS by Tarheel@mastodon.technology
2019-05-24T15:10:30Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl ...Slack/Discord have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. (end)
(DIR) Post #9j8gzvkUme5ddrJEmG by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T15:16:31.982198Z
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@Tarheel @Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac I think a lot of people felt bad about cutting the voices with filters. Aside from a few, I know the server I’m on has had doubts in the wisdom of the filtering of fed. Even though we do, it’s just very tight on who. Fir collaboration, Slack is without a doubt, killing it in my mind. I work with several clients who’ll use nothing else, and I’ve become used to running my workflow through it.
(DIR) Post #9j8hJ5aeQ06VfLq9Mu by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T15:19:59.647960Z
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@Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac @Tarheel personally. I could care less if it throws an email in the junk. I’ll find it. I don’t delete the spam without going through it. Call it paranoia. Gmail s labels on the other hand have caused me to miss important messages. I’d like to see much more personal tailoring of labels, blocks, etc. google has proven less than stable lately too.
(DIR) Post #9j8hJqVzx7JDCX1b8q by Tarheel@mastodon.technology
2019-05-24T15:12:40Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl (This are old topics, I guess: https://cr.yp.to/immhf/thread.html )
(DIR) Post #9j8hMEE2liszJhlLhg by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T15:20:34.263936Z
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@Tarheel @Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac yeahs I was in on it then too. XD
(DIR) Post #9j8hOGFUDWuIAfPHRg by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-24T15:20:55Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Tarheel not sure about gmail, but some email providers, when they see an email that has a very high spam score, don't even put it in the spam folder.
(DIR) Post #9j8iD0WcR9uSApcNvM by Tarheel@mastodon.technology
2019-05-24T15:29:43Z
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@jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies @Wolf480pl Well, I was referring to one corner of a convo that's gone bad, so you could clip just that subthread where everybody's responding to that one person who said "but what about [globally-significant-and-not-really-relevant-right-now topic]?".We use Teams at work and it's garbage; I hate it. No (decent) filter or search. I've heard Slack can be a real attention hog and causes FOMO and so forth. (But I have no experience and so can't really speak to it.)
(DIR) Post #9j8iPKCV6rlwfg56dU by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-24T15:32:19.603223Z
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@Tarheel @Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac slack can definitely become an obsession like federation of FB for some. But it’s workflow, top notch. I would use it for much if it weren’t what my clients prefer, but since I have to anyway, I’ve set it up to function very well.
(DIR) Post #9jAwOzruUWb7Hq6kjo by Tarheel@mastodon.technology
2019-05-25T17:18:31Z
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@Wolf480pl @jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies I'm actually a fan of latency, for things worth archiving. For immediate technical help, problematic, maybe (but stack exchange is also high latency).What cruft?
(DIR) Post #9jAx2lPTfR6m1llrmq by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-25T17:25:43Z
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@Tarheel @jack @alexcleac @SuperFloppies Latency is good for some things, bad for other things.For example, sometimes you need to:- coordinate incident response (eg. as a sysadmin)- get comments from viewers on a livestream- remotely debug an issue using someone else as your hands and eyes- find someone on a train stationIn those cases, high latency would be a big problem
(DIR) Post #9jBLUatQlBvwPzaJo8 by jack@pl.lust.works
2019-05-25T21:59:41.508461Z
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@Wolf480pl @SuperFloppies @alexcleac @Tarheel I’ve noticed the differences before, between professionals opinions of latency. It’s nice to have a little insight into why.