Post 9ibt9O3Z2LTim45aaW by seasharp@crowsnest.libre.audio
(DIR) More posts by seasharp@crowsnest.libre.audio
(DIR) Post #9ibUN6e24YlZyMalPs by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T14:49:20Z
2 likes, 3 repeats
To everyone looking at Microsoft releasing "open source", allow me to remind you of FUD cousin: EEE.EmbraceExtendExtinguishDon't be fooled by MS. It is not your "friend", nor a friend of open source. It is a giant faceless corporation only interested in PROFITS, not in privacy, software freedom or consumer choice.And it has DECADES of experience peddling FUD and EEE. Its history is a long bloody trail of aggressive attacks against competitors.Linux is MS competition TODAY. That is all.
(DIR) Post #9ibUSmusKpOKWXBBXU by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T14:50:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
And this, by the way, is doubly true for BSD. EEE works even better against BSD-Licensed software.
(DIR) Post #9ibUtNg0HgIo3vu5nU by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T14:55:01Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque you can't make Microsoft go away. They're the most valuable company in the world. So your choices are to encourage them and appreciate their open source efforts, or to continue to disparage them. Which of these options encourages the engineers at Microsoft to keep pushing for open source? Reard them for the good they've done so they keep doing it. They can't un-open the things they've open sourced. They've made permanent and meaningful contributions to open source and I'm thankful to them for it.
(DIR) Post #9ibUwKeE08cBXPTkvo by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T14:55:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Using the Gandi-attributed quote:"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win":Free Software is still in the "fight" stage. Releasing software is the EEE strategy of Microsoft, and not the "win" stage, if there ever will be such a thing.Big corporations (Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google, Oracle, etc) are not friends of Linux and BSD: they consider -- correctly -- that "free" software is a threat to their bottom line.
(DIR) Post #9ibVh1g6LdH4JZcdHc by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T15:04:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir You just completely missed my point.The fact that MS is the most valuable company in the world does NOT mean it is a friend of open source, far from it.It also does NOT mean that MS has to behave ethically with regards to consumer privacy and a broad respect for human rights.I have worked in enough megacorps to know that these are entirely dysfunctional, with the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.Finally open sourcing software is 100% compatible with EEE.
(DIR) Post #9ibVvZY9D6rfQ6q17A by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T15:06:41Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque we should totally give them hell for ethical violations. Windows is a dumpster fire of spyware and they deserve shit for it, and for all the other dumb shit they do. But they DON'T deserve crap for writing open source software. They deserve thanks for it. If you give them crap for it what reason do they have to keep doing it? You can't change minds by just yelling at at the top of your lungs at someone and dismissing their improvements.The free software community has blinders on when it comes to Microsoft, and it's not healthy or productive.
(DIR) Post #9ibWRlMooFn5Kyt9ZQ by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T15:12:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Again: you are missing my point.Writing open-source is all great and good, except that in the case of MS, it may well come with strings attached, in the form of EEE. And MS is a master of both FUD and EEE. They have a long track record in using both.I agree with you we should not obsess about Microsoft. But also should not be naive about it. It is NOT our friend.
(DIR) Post #9ibWZsjDKBZwU6EdoO by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T15:14:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Sorry if that offends some people at Microsoft, especially if they are writing open source stuff.Same with their donations to #OpenBSD by the way. I say cash the check, politely thank them and move on.
(DIR) Post #9ibXLBSHW3luAvs27c by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T15:22:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque there's no evidence that MS's open source work is EEE.Let me put it this way: what would Microsoft have to do to convince you?
(DIR) Post #9ibi9CuHOO6QhLSSbA by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T17:23:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir There is no evidence right now about the current "initiative". There is, however, plenty of historical evidence.To answer your question:1) I don't think MS gives a hoot about convincing me.2) Again, this is a company with a decade-long track record of anti-competitive practices and deceit (SCO? Anyone?).This is backed up, not just by the rant of a deranged idiot like me but by multiple condemnations in multiple jurisdictions (EU, US, etc).https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/opinion/microsoft-antitrust-case.htmlSo why trust MS?
(DIR) Post #9ibiQs3hdxGpFfHwoK by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T17:27:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque you're not answering the question, though. What could Microsoft do to convince you their intentions are good? An entity beyond redemption has no incentive to reform. Microsoft isn't going away so if you want reform you must be willing to forgive
(DIR) Post #9ibjCASZ2xIfvpTCcq by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T17:35:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I am sorry but this attitude is entirely naive.Microsoft is a corporation. Corporations do NOT change. People change. And all people find changing their beliefs extremely wrenching. This is not a question of "forgiveness" either. You can forgive a person for past deeds. Corporations are soulless legal fictions created to organize complex human activities.Corporations are not "forgiven", they are dismantled.NOTHING I have seen so far makes me believe that MS has changed.
(DIR) Post #9ibjLGlWyFag5ygJUW by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T17:37:18Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque just beat around the bush some more and lather me up with a few more insults. You think Microsoft (and all corporations!) can be "dismantled" and _I'm_ the naive one? Your idealism is extreme and your lack of practical sensibilities undermines your ability to bring about change
(DIR) Post #9ibjVeqmHORPgk5b4y by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T17:39:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Think about it this way: when a person exhibit a pattern of repeated psychopathic behaviour, (s)he ends up locked in a prison for life.When a Corporation does the same... nothing happens. It is fined, sometimes huge sums, but it continues to exist and continue misbehaving.The only good thing about Microsoft is what it did seems tame compared to the truly evil companies such as Google, Facebook and Uber.
(DIR) Post #9ibjqoeP2M6sAIOEwS by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T17:42:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque you seem like the sort of person who, in another breath, would argue that corporations aren't people (and I would agree). The comparison to locking a psychopath up for life is nonsensical.If you want to have an impact, you need to decide what reasonable goals are. Dismantling the most valuable company in the world isn't going to happen. Reforming it could. So you need to square yourself with the idea that it could be reformed.Right now you're just yelling at the wall. The wall isn't listening.
(DIR) Post #9ibk1Ye4stZji9MNto by starbreaker@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T17:44:54Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque @sir We used to routinely nuke corporations guilty of malfeasance. For some reason we forgot over the course of the twentieth century -- or were made to forget -- that corporations are not people and have no rights.https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/01/08/its-time-bring-back-corporate-death-penaltyThe states and the Federal government already have all of the legal authority they need to shut down Microsoft (or the #FAANG corporations) for its abuses.What they lack are the balls to actually do so.
(DIR) Post #9ibk9Auj09LUQSmLNQ by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T17:46:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@starbreaker @ParadeGrotesque you need to cultivate an ability to compromise and find incremental steps for change, or you will fail to bring it about.
(DIR) Post #9ibkEKEFnPVklPMwbY by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T17:47:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I am sorry if you feel like I have insulted you. Please accept all my apologies.Companies can, and should, and have been dismantled in the past. See US antitrust regulations in the 30s and 40s.And, yes, I believe most of the predatory companies that exists today should be dismantled.This is not *idealism* this is simply a normal reaction to the overarching dominance of dangerous companies. This is an *eminently* practical response to the danger posed by concentration of power.
(DIR) Post #9ibkegLWBgDSt7Kome by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T17:51:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir To wit: > Dismantling the most valuable > company in the world isn't going > to happen.To which I can only reply: Why Not?Does it have something to do with the huge sums spent by Microsoft to influence political representatives?So that Microsoft is allowed to continue operating as before? And continue its pattern of anti-competitive practices?
(DIR) Post #9ibl2hHmLSxkki2MBE by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T17:56:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I believe the time for incremental "steps" is over, unfortunately. There are just too many emergencies in this world right now.The only thing that will have an impact on MS, Apple, Google (etc) is either complete boycott or legal action, or ideally both.But, hey, that's just me. Feel free to pursue compromise and incremental changes. Then, see you in 10 years and let's compare notes.@starbreaker
(DIR) Post #9ibl2vR9jOmYdqX2jw by starbreaker@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T17:56:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir The state doesn't have to compromise. It has thus far chosen to do so, but if enough of us put sufficient pressure on public officials to take decisive action against corporate tyranny on pain of losing the next election, I think you'd see some change and that right quickly.@ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9ibt9O3Z2LTim45aaW by seasharp@crowsnest.libre.audio
2019-05-08T19:27:12.002723Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque personally I find this a compelling question so I'll answer it if you'll allow.I'd like to see Microsoft take a tent pole product and fully open source it, top to bottom. I should be able to build a Microsoft product CentOS style if I choose.This might seem extreme if you look at other largely closed source shops that actively contribute to FOSS like Apple or Atlassian, but I'm unaware of any equivalence between the anti-FOSS strategies (are there even any?) they use and those employed historically by Microsoft. In such a case that no equivalence exists, id say exceptional malice requires exceptional atonement.Excel comes to mind, but that'll never happen. Ever.
(DIR) Post #9ibvyTf89aNYq09Mh6 by angristan@mstdn.io
2019-05-08T19:58:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir (thank you)
(DIR) Post #9ibwDS0Uagrs2zHWpU by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:00:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@angristan (I don't work for MS)
(DIR) Post #9ibwj3vzcxrmecFbvs by angristan@mstdn.io
2019-05-08T20:07:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I know, I was just thanking you because you're the first person I've seen here in the last few days that is not trashing Microsoft just because it's Microsoft. Most people are not even aware how many open source projects Microsoft is behind.
(DIR) Post #9ibwpxSM6wTAadfz9s by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:08:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@angristan ah, for sure. We should definitely trash things like Windows but not all of Microsoft
(DIR) Post #9ibwwpXjvjtk4hTIh6 by charlag@birb.site
2019-05-08T20:08:27Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque yeah but you cannot release fancy OSS terminals with one hand and sue/take money for linux with another. I didn't hear anyone said "blah, they OSSed it!" but everyone was "yeah, that's nice but can you stop killing us please?"
(DIR) Post #9ibx2z2lWM6DHFuxRw by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:09:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlag @ParadeGrotesque source on "sue/take money for linux"? Also, selling Linux in general is not a problem, commercial use is one of the four freedoms and selling Linux does good for Linux
(DIR) Post #9ibxGqsCh8eDzXafNw by ewok@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:12:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque Why do you want to reform ms? Why does anyone in the open source community need their continued existence?
(DIR) Post #9ibxLx8motfqsTmN6W by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:13:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ewok @ParadeGrotesque you can't stop them from existing, but you can be supportive when they channel their existence into positive things like publishing, funding, and contributing to free software
(DIR) Post #9ibxc6CysGo1dMRM7E by ewok@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:16:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque Whatever open source work they do is tied to profit. It’s a corporation. This is like endorsing McDonald’s for charity work helping childhood obesity. Nice try but nah.
(DIR) Post #9ibxhsUOnJSKp3LJy4 by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:17:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir To be frank, I think you're coming from a kind of myopic position here. Microsoft supports Linux because it's good for their cloud business. That's fine and, in isolation, a good thing!However, by making Linux binaries work on their desktop platform, they hope to push even harder against the development of free and open desktop platforms, just as they do whenever a local or regional government tries to move from their nonfree office software or desktop to free software (see Frankfurt, etc).
(DIR) Post #9ibxwsLLcSo0iIGDya by charlag@birb.site
2019-05-08T20:20:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque I don't care what they sell, I say that they make money from each Android phone sold. "Ms heart Linux" but shares patents with thugs who will try to sue every dollar out of you.I'm sorry that I cannot provide links but I don't have a proper internet access rn. Maybe someone can help find these cases (second one is pretty new)
(DIR) Post #9iby3P4KrKqDwoPrBg by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:21:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@charlag @ParadeGrotesque definitely going to need a source here. Not in a hurry, whenever you can
(DIR) Post #9iby95XEOn6j6Mdu64 by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:19:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir This is in and of itself a _bad thing_. It means that there's less and less of a reason for people without an ideological reason to use Linux on the desktop, which means there's less and less reason for software developers to release on Linux, which in turn reduces market share.There is already a negative feedback loop there, and Microsoft is applying a very serious lever to counteract the work being done by e.g. GNOME to overcome that negative feedback loop.This is why people are upset with them.
(DIR) Post #9iby95hrlFc9dLcOfo by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:22:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall I fuckin get it but can we please answer the questions I'm asking and not the made-up questions which let you repeat the party line?
(DIR) Post #9ibyDQRAcv5v5SsMUq by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:22:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir It is explicitly and unequivocably an EEE strategy, as they have done in the past with other open source and free software projects.So, yes, Microsoft's open source work is great! I'm glad Visual Studio Code exists, and I'm glad the new terminal is open source.That does not excuse their explicit attempts to make irrelevant and unusable the only thing that makes using modern computers bearable for me. Microsoft is no monolith; I'm sure some people there are great. But they are _doing harm_ here.
(DIR) Post #9ibyDQeznW9ZmLLP2u by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:23:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall there we go, that's a bit more substantive. So basically you see WSL as an attack on open source?
(DIR) Post #9ibyGaCklg1QFVdcEi by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T20:24:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Agreed, let's thank them for what they do... While keeping in mind they do have a very ugly track record.It's a little bit like this scene in "Backdraft": "Yes, I have changed, I am so sorry for my crimes, and I love Linux and open source now..."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsUcfHYWr0IOh, and "You can stop them from existing"? Sorry, but we can. Either divide MS into different companies (forbidden to talk to each other), sue it into oblivion or boycott it. I have chosen option #3.@ewok
(DIR) Post #9ibyMOwFZIJx2rh28G by kaniini@pleroma.site
2019-05-08T20:25:13.985726Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque @charlag Microsoft uses various shell companies such as Intellectual Ventures to do patent trolling.
(DIR) Post #9ibySDRDEwzf78wqNE by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:25:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Totally! The question you asked is "Which of [encouraging or disparaging them] encourages the engineers ... to keep pushing for open source?"The answer is... neither. Or, maybe more accurately, it doesn't matter. Yes, engineers at Microsoft pushing for open source is important, and congratulating them on open sourcing things is a good way to make individual contributors keep doing that, but unless it aligns with business goals it doesn't matter at all. The business makes these decisions, in the end.
(DIR) Post #9ibyZOMJ2ETp0n4i0W by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:27:39Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall I need to start by dismissing the idea that WSL is an attack on open source.People (myself included) have been giving Windows shit for years for being a nonstandard shitstain to write code for, and asking them to just implement POSIX already. Adding a Linux syscall compatibility layer is a great way to do that, and actually becomes more compatible than it would be with POSIX support alone.WSL allows Windows users to access a larger suite of open source tools for their work, and encourages the development of cross-platform software based on it.On top of that, it's all by the book and totally valid per the licensing terms of the software they use.
(DIR) Post #9ibyfZedwzihmZbGGO by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:28:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall now I don't like it because I don't use Windows, but an attack on open source it is not.
(DIR) Post #9ibymAmap06EffSswC by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:29:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir You're the one talking past me, now. I never said it was illegal or even bad for Windows users.It's bad for everyone else, because it decreases competition in the desktop space. Unless we really see the Linux ABI become the universal compilation target because of this (we won't), all this does is remove a reason for a section of the population to use free desktops, reinforcing that negative feedback I mentioned.Is that not true? Am I missing something?
(DIR) Post #9ibys238Ck17K4zic4 by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:30:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall there is a lot of shit to hold Microsoft's feet to the fire to. Windows spying on its users is totally unacceptable. Patent trolling is totally unacceptable. Publishing open source software is commendable.
(DIR) Post #9ibyw7TnxOgJK4Q5oW by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:30:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall no, it increases competition. You just don't like the competitor
(DIR) Post #9ibyzXB0sBcHtBG4xM by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T20:32:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Here is one example: https://www.howtogeek.com/183766/why-microsoft-makes-5-to-15-from-every-android-device-sold/1.3 billion Android devices were sold in 2017. That's US$ 6.5 billion in revenues for MS just in 2017. Nice job if you can get it.@charlag
(DIR) Post #9ibz0zrfhHDR9XuPwW by erikstl@fosstodon.org
2019-05-08T20:30:28Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@ewok RedHat is a corporation traded on the NYSE and therefore, their work is also tied to profit.Profit is not evil, nor is it contrary to open source.@sir @ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9ibz4yU8lg9k25nc3c by charlag@birb.site
2019-05-08T20:30:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque I can try to look it up tomorrow
(DIR) Post #9ibz9mJpQgyRkPGaMC by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:34:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque @charlag thanks. I totally condemn this, for the record. Patents are actively harmful and abusing them is really shit of them. This isn't really an attack on open source, though, but rather on a bunch of OEMs who are all just as bad - or worse.
(DIR) Post #9ibzQYwmOm55CNUNSS by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:33:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Sorry, what?Making it so that Microsoft can reinforce their monopoly even more is increasing competition?Currently, one of the only escape hatches in the Microsoft monopoly is that software developers often need a UNIX-like OS and, if they don't like or can't afford a Mac, they will use Linux.This cuts out that escape hatch to a huge degree. I don't see how you can say that's doing anything but reinforcing their monopoly.This is not a level playing field, and they're tipping it further.
(DIR) Post #9ibzUqcmcG8dBOBADg by bob@soc.freedombone.net
2019-05-08T20:34:58.426273Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque I think Microsoft is busy reinventing itself as a network services company and that they're not following exactly the same EEE as during the Gates/Ballmer era.Soon I expect nobody will pay for Windows and instead it will become a "network managed platform". Something delivered by Azure over the internet with built in telemetry and advertising. Fully instrumenting the user for monitoring and manipulation of experience. Imagine what Mozilla does with Studies but at the operating system level.In the shiny new Microsoft it doesn't really matter if Free Software runs on Windows unmodified and without suffering their extensions. They won't need to sell software as before and so the more Free Software they pile on the more attractive Windows looks and the less they pay to have engineers maintain anything. The mantra with these companies always is: privatize the gains, externalize the costs.Microsoft's commitment to Open Source will always be the same as their commitment to release all versions of Windows under an OSI license. Until then their involvement is merely cynical.
(DIR) Post #9ibzdfHm8vLscdYbuy by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:35:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall do you actually understand how monopolies and competition works? Compatibility is good for competition because it gives users more options and reduces lock-in. Locking users into open source is still lock in. Note that the Wine project hasn't been sued, by the way
(DIR) Post #9ibzihvbkIbCGWapJw by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:35:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque @charlag oh, and it doesn't invalidate their open source contributions or support the idea that their open source work is a poison pill
(DIR) Post #9ibzm2WxbQsZ21eZ8q by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T20:41:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@erikstl There is nothing wrong with profit, I agree with you, except when you reuse said profits into political pressure to obtain an undeserved dominating position. And Microsoft has been doing that for decades now.Also, let us be honest:- MSFT cap: US$ 904 billions- RHT: +/- US$ 35 billionsWe are not exactly talking about companies of the same size here...(Finally, I'll add that I loathe Red Hat because it foisted the horror named systemd upon us... But I digress.)@ewok @sir
(DIR) Post #9ibzpcmDIUzMJcUsjo by charlag@birb.site
2019-05-08T20:40:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque Azure IP advantage program is fairly new and wasn't mentioned yethttps://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-to-aid-azure-customers-in-taking-on-patent-trolls/
(DIR) Post #9ibzquRP6hsTOFNOPQ by ky0ko@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:42:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque as a serious answer, because i was thinking about this recently while walking through the microsoft campus:open source the nt kernel and the core components of the windows operating system.when i can go and build my own minimally functioning version of windows, and modify it, freely, that's when i will start to believe microsoft is genuinely committed to open sourceuntil then, i'm inclined to believe that these actions are nothing but part of an effort to increase their monopoly.
(DIR) Post #9ibzrFMVK7R6H8FHBg by Thndr@pleroma.site
2019-05-08T20:41:19.207444Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque imo I think the first step MS could take to garner actual good will to a significant degree to get a large amount of people to give them a chance is an action MS will never take.Be this open sourcing under free software licenses any of it's main product lines (dos/win, winxp, etc), or willingly breaking themselves up without govt actually enforcing existing laws that they could enforce right now (even if stock splits would be a huge boon to investors).MS has plenty of incentive to get better, they choose not to and lead people on and there is a limit of how 'good' they will beThey may be 'better' than some other major centralize conglomeration, but their interests do not align or respect yours just as much as the other companies.MS isn't going to replace Google in the 'do no evil' space, and with Google we have an example of MS's classic EEE being used in the open source space.MS isn't open sourcing to promote free/libre software, but to compete with Google. Anything freed is just a side effect of a business decision that cares not about you and other people.
(DIR) Post #9ibzv1ZMXulCem3qiW by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T20:42:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Thndr Thanks, that was exactly my point.@sir
(DIR) Post #9ibzvI2JK3QHjBjC3k by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:41:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir No, no, I get it in principle, right? Like, I understand that, if it were the case that Windows and Linux now each supported each others' binaries to the same level, that would be AMAZING for consumers.That's not where we are.Where we are is that Windows can now fully support literally everything Linux does, with probably some minor exceptions based on what Windows engineers have integrated, while Wine still has to struggle to reverse engineer Windows features and re-implement them.Hence uneven.
(DIR) Post #9ic031c0GtaT6b6xhA by Thndr@pleroma.site
2019-05-08T20:44:13.580033Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque that's not to say that OSS from MS isn't good overall as it forces other companies to adopt OSS which may be free/libre, and that being able to run Linux stuff in Windows at least allows many Linux-only projects to be ran on Windows by regular folk.But they are not to be trusted in the end.
(DIR) Post #9ic055wf8EAT7jlGfQ by ky0ko@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:44:52Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque i am genuinely concerned that, as an example, the new windows subsystem for linux features will mean that my employer could make the decision that all of my embedded linux development work should be done on windows now that it's "compatible".i do not want that, and i think many folks don't, but that is a thing that is probably going to happen to some people.that's how microsoft does this, and that's how they always have. make it "compatible", and then take over the competition.
(DIR) Post #9ic06BvcN7jjyBnOTo by sir@cmpwn.com
2019-05-08T20:44:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall WSL doesn't support large swaths of Linux programs, and doesn't implement a lot of kernel features. It's far from perfect
(DIR) Post #9ic0AFW8yB5sG9oblA by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T20:45:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Thndr > But they are not to be trusted> in the end.Again, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. @sir
(DIR) Post #9ic0B8wctPxQADd2Aq by charlag@birb.site
2019-05-08T20:45:21Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque again, no one said it is bad what they're doing for OSS. Many people are sceptical that it's EEE, but that's not too important yet IMO.There are things really worth appreciating. Like they develop OSS switch firmware called SONIC and make shitty manufacturers support it.It's just that a lot of things are suspicious and some are harmful and I don't have any desire to praise them. They help themselves first.
(DIR) Post #9ic0BlHANUxz2vWySu by bob@soc.freedombone.net
2019-05-08T20:45:16.242650Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@charlag @sir @ParadeGrotesque The operative phrase here is "available to Azure customers". Anyone else is subject to Microsoft's lawyers as usual.This sounds very much like a protection racket.
(DIR) Post #9ic0ICmr0OOO6kQPke by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:45:56Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@sir But that's the whole point of WSL 2; they can just copy-paste the kernel and do (admittedly difficult) integration work, while Wine has to literally reverse engineer Windows to go in the other direction, in addition to all that similarly difficult integration work.Right?
(DIR) Post #9ic0Pkclb6Ov4zIy0G by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T20:48:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ky0ko > that's how microsoft does this, > and that's how they always have. > make it "compatible", and then > take over the competition.And THAT, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the very definition of Embrace, Extend and Extinguish.Thanks for giving us a concrete example of what Iwas saying earlier.Big corps LOVE proprietary software, because it means they have someone to blame if something goes wrong.MS is very happy to take loads of $$$ and shoulder the blame.@sir
(DIR) Post #9ic0QODIPDnHrZhBr6 by ky0ko@cybre.space
2019-05-08T20:48:43Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque i *guarantee* that a previous employer of mine is going to have their engineers do that, and the engineers will not have a choice if they want to keep their jobs (which, knowing them, means they don't have a choice).microsoft is going to gain share in favor of linux on this, and not by the choice of their users, but by the choice of companies. the open source ecosystem isn't going to gain more people from this, it will lose them. microsoft has enough market share.
(DIR) Post #9ic0U3aB3Lyb2H9AXI by starbreaker@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T20:49:17Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@ky0ko @ParadeGrotesque I think #WSL represents a realization on Microsoft's part that GNU/Linux is in fact good enough to replace Windows in most cases (cue the "muh vidya games" and "muh AutoCAD" replies), and that if they don't make a concerted effort to sucker people into thinking they can have "the best of both world" they will soon be made irrelevant in corporate environments where they make most of their money.
(DIR) Post #9ic0z9CmCMqFS11hjc by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-05-08T20:54:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @tindall I'm all for taking the source and thanking MS for providing it whenever we find it useful.And for now let's agree that the code behind WSL isn't an attack on open-source.But what about the marketing around it?Isn't "Ubuntu is just an app on Microsoft Store" a wonderful narrative for someone who wants to prevent people from using Linux?
(DIR) Post #9ic112Lgf2UMlX5yMq by starbreaker@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-08T20:55:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ky0ko @ParadeGrotesque Right now there's fuck-all stopping me from buying a brand-new Thinkpad X1, wiping the OS, and installing #OpenBSD or #Linux. It's almost trivial for me to do, because I'm an experienced techie.What happens to Microsoft when somebody who *isn't* an experienced techie can wipe the default OS and replace it with #Linux as easily as somebody like me?Microsoft is playing the long game, trying to stay relevant. They know more people are growing up with exposure to #FOSS.
(DIR) Post #9ic1x72NO3h26QktiC by yolo@ieji.de
2019-05-08T21:05:10Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@erikstl @ewok @sir @ParadeGrotesque i would argue that. Keeping sources closed, restricting users and locking them in has granted Microsoft power and money they never would have "earned" if they would have opened their code. Maybe #FOSS is not contradicting #profit, but some business models are hostile to open source.
(DIR) Post #9ic1yNpgQbTqTwQNOa by Egide@mamot.fr
2019-05-08T21:05:12Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir @ParadeGrotesque Do not be naive, Microsoft has never abandoned its proprietary software model.All their contributions to Opensource, at one time or another, Microsoft will charge very dearly by claiming software patents and intellectual property.Microsoft will go to court if necessary to make people paid for.Already ex-Microsoft employees sue to extort royalties on behalf of intellectual property.
(DIR) Post #9ickw4BJ12u2tPo7kW by steelman@mstdn.io
2019-05-09T05:29:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @angristan @ParadeGrotesque Engineers are not to decide.
(DIR) Post #9idkL9SIddjvh477AG by pox@patch.cx
2019-05-09T16:57:56.478356Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque @popefucker I thought that everyone knew that this is just them preparing (grooming) users for "operating systems as a service" ????? Kind of like how "game streaming as a service" looks like a great deal until you realize it's the most perverted form of DRM possible.
(DIR) Post #9idkY4f5lwueahG8oK by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-05-09T17:00:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque Do you like BSDs disproportionately more than their licenses?
(DIR) Post #9idmvOsMyynRqviicj by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-05-09T17:26:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tindall @sir So, more MS FLOSS could bring about less net FLOSS world total?
(DIR) Post #9idneXCervY2i6jQhs by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-05-09T17:35:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @tindall Isn't this akin to applauding Lord Vader for feeding the clones with vegan food?
(DIR) Post #9idnmE9dZjYZwrzFiq by tindall@cybre.space
2019-05-09T17:36:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@byllgrim @sir That doesn't seem fair. As I said in a different post in this thread, I'm sure there are many individuals at Microsoft who are genuinely good people and who don't want to screw the open source communityit's just that the business objectives of the corporation don't line up with thatmicrosoft will always be able to make more money by fucking us than by not fucking us, thus they will fuck us
(DIR) Post #9idxkFTggPsz113oCu by ari@yiff.life
2019-05-09T19:27:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir if I could throw an idea in there: release the win32 and directx APIs under a license wine can use, ideally with the full internal docs. That's an actual gesture towards compatibility rather than the one way snag with wsl
(DIR) Post #9ie13g3sMyLEpNwXoW by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-09T20:05:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@byllgrim I am sorry, I am not sure if I understand your question? Could you please elaborate?(And, for the record, yes, I do like the BSDs).
(DIR) Post #9ieG8TCJ7j7Zgud8u8 by Shamar@framapiaf.org
2019-05-09T22:53:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir > what would Microsoft have> to do to convince you?Release Windows, Office Professional and SQLServer under a strong copyleft. Donate all related patents to #FSF and #FSFE. Refuse to sign any UEFI payload, not even Windows' one.These are tree decent starting poins.@ParadeGrotesque
(DIR) Post #9ieyk4peYeHj6umDJo by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2019-05-10T07:14:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ParadeGrotesque Sorry, I was unclear.I thought you pointed out a weakness of bsd/permissive licenses, and it seemed to suggest that those licenses are unfavorable. But you clearly like bsd. So I was just confused and curious about your overall opinion on permissive licenses.
(DIR) Post #9ifQFKxjKjHisRgXM8 by ParadeGrotesque@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-05-10T12:22:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@byllgrim Well, as you certainly know, all open-source licenses are tricky beasts. They are ways to hack the copyright system to make it protect what was called before the "public domain".The more "open" the license, the more vulnerable it is to extend / embrace / extinguish. The GPL was called a "viral" license because RMS experience at MIT lead him to design it to "protect" open source.I love BSD (expecially #OpenBSD 🐡 ) because of technical merits, not just because of licensing.