Post 9iWSaAGWkZXfGhtfm4 by mattgen88@cybre.space
(DIR) More posts by mattgen88@cybre.space
(DIR) Post #9iWSaAGWkZXfGhtfm4 by mattgen88@cybre.space
2019-05-06T04:24:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
How far we've strayed from MVC, which was literally perfectly applicable to the web. I'm looking at redux and wondering where the hell we went wrong.
(DIR) Post #9iWSaAVlptje1z1qXA by mdhughes@cybre.space
2019-05-06T04:35:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mattgen88 MVC doesn't really work on the web because the client side has to have view and controller, and then the server side also has to have model, view, and controller. And for speed, you often need to push a lot of model to the client.That's true of desktop database-backed programs, too. You can't just blindly trust the application to pass correct data, so the database layer gets a model & controller.
(DIR) Post #9iWT2TrPUSpq9JePQ0 by mattgen88@cybre.space
2019-05-06T04:41:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mdhughes No, you're missing the point. Basic UI is what I mean. You interact with some input (view), when it's modified it updates a model (which stores the data that was mutated), and it's wired up in a controller that uses the model to modify other views. Now you have huge pipelines to even get started and apparently we're at the point where your views are embedded in your controllers and use pub/sub to mutate models that then broadcast back their state modifications. (webpack/babel/react/redux)
(DIR) Post #9iWT60Ll9SdxmZWizQ by mattgen88@cybre.space
2019-05-06T04:41:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mdhughes Clicking a button and having it do something should not be this complicated
(DIR) Post #9iWTRVrPBx0DajaJsm by mdhughes@cybre.space
2019-05-06T04:45:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mattgen88 I'm not talking about any specific JS framework nonsense—I do all my web dev in raw JS/DOM with my own libraries.But you *cannot* cleanly separate concerns into MVC on web. Even if you're just client-only, DOM is messy. Once you start talking to a server, you're duplicating effort unless you use a different paradigm for it.If you're having a problem with react or redux (never used it, never will), that's not the web's fault.
(DIR) Post #9iWTk1P4ecSgdJ9u6a by mdhughes@cybre.space
2019-05-06T04:48:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mattgen88 onclick="doStuff()", or addEventListener is not complicated. But it isn't MVC, either, it leads to a functional model.
(DIR) Post #9iWUYsmqRxvwg5WuP2 by mattgen88@cybre.space
2019-05-06T04:58:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mdhughes MVC was literally invented for the problem of user interfaces (xerox). It is wholly applicable to just that and I am talking about the very core of user interface interactivity. That aside, I'm not having any problems with react or redux, I'm gawking at the "state of the art" and wondering why it is so many layers deep. I can't believe how may layers are on top of the house of cards and that anyone thinks this is a good idea build their business on.And I work with this stuff daily.
(DIR) Post #9iWVE7Z6PRGWNvlXU0 by mdhughes@cybre.space
2019-05-06T05:05:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mattgen88 MVC was invented in the neolithic computing era for a single-user $20,000 workstation running Smalltalk, and they failed to sell their workstations.The application to VT220-plus-styling paradigm that is the WWW is very minimal.I've been programming GUIs since the '80s. You can't treat HTML/JS like Mac in Pascal, or Atari ST in C, or any other thing. It should be programmed in the native idiom.You don't have to use any frameworks. Some people do, because they think it's easier.
(DIR) Post #9iWVpbMMb3xJVPgBHM by mattgen88@cybre.space
2019-05-06T05:11:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mdhughes You do when you're not the business owner and the choice has been made for you. You do when you want to continue to be paid and be able to live. My job is to solve problems within the bounds of the systems I have to work within. My job is also to learn about what else is out there and make proposals. That evaluation of the state of the art is driving me nuts, because none of this feels like the native idiom, to use your own words. It all feels forced, inelegant, multi-layer-indirection. Brittle.
(DIR) Post #9iWWE307TkwYBQvp56 by mdhughes@cybre.space
2019-05-06T05:16:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mattgen88 If you don't control the tech you have to use, then you're just boned or you quit."State of the art" for web tech all seems to be someone's private hobby framework gets popular, then dies off again because it's still not useful. Using any of them is just technical debt.But upthread, you were "MVC was literally perfectly applicable to the web", and that ain't so; if you think it is, you can always write the 1001st framework…