Post 9hL3NkhUM7HdbJaOWm by DeadManWalking@social.quodverum.com
(DIR) More posts by DeadManWalking@social.quodverum.com
(DIR) Post #9hKtrQeUSbo0ZGhCV6 by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:15:05Z
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By no means is this new, but our institutions are under attack yet again. There is another push to eliminate the Electoral College. This effort seeks to undermine the constitution at the state level. The EC has been under heavy scrutiny by the left for a couple decades. The growing popularity has me troubled.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrQoPrhkH43L7yK by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:16:15Z
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If there was no EC, why have states? It’s like pulling a thread on a knitted sweater, the whole thing can unravel. Why do we have a senate? They’re elected the same as the house, just smaller body with longer terms. These are ideas the left has floated in the past and will again and again.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrQzlBWordEeBea by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:17:24Z
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The disastrous ideas to “fix problems” is not limited to just the left. This will upset many, but it has to be said, term limits are just as harmful to our Constitutional construct. For many years I myself supported term limits. I was wrong, dead wrong. Allow me to explain why.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrR5mp7djvvT02y by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:20:39Z
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First of all, let’s stop thinking like the progressives. We don’t need to redesign the wheel. The problem is, the wheel has been serviced by unqualified technicians with ‘ideas’ of their own. I suggest that restoring the wheel to its original successful design is the wise move here.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrRHq6JHUXJ6cpk by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:21:24Z
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We all agree the founding fathers exercised profound wisdom in the framing of our government. Today we would do no better nor nearly as well for that matter. We just don’t have that caliper of representation. Few are read in Montesquieu, or Locke, or Cicero, or Aristotle and on. Our founders very much were.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrRN9mXXCnnas7c by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:29:53Z
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Montesquieu in particular, his observations were weighed heavily with framing of our government. For example, republics do not work across large land masses. The interests are too diverse to remain intact. Federated states answered this problem. The EC insures small states have a voice. It all works in concert. Remove one part and it begins to alter. The octive changes.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrRSpRS4V5OFOxk by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:32:33Z
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But the career politicians, the damn crooks won’t leave office! The founders didn’t foresee that, THIS is why we need term limits now!I thought that too...
(DIR) Post #9hKtrRcOrrjBZ4j2si by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:33:37Z
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What the founders didn’t foresee was the critical link in the federal apparatus to the states being severed with the 17th amendment. This amendment made the selection of Senators by popular vote in 1913.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrRlyIHNs2lCgng by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:34:27Z
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When drafting the constitution, the idea of popularly electing Senators was proposed and firmly rejected, with due cause. The state legislators appoint 2 senators, thus linking the states to the federal government and vice versa. Arguably, the states controlled the long term deliberative body within the federal government.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrRvXih2YWRgKie by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:36:46Z
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Madison noted “No law or resolution can now be passed without the concurrence first of a majority of the people, and then of a majority of the states” speaking to the House and Senate. Such a brilliant component for a governmental system of the people, for the people, by the people.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrS1vKy90qEfQfI by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:37:27Z
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State governments turn over, many states have… Term limits. As senate terms come up, there is a good chance of replacement. This will provide the desired turn over expected from term limits.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrS9MtI6DDK9NGi by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:41:18Z
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Not to mention, no more senatorial campaigns. {unless a state legislator chooses popular election} Instant campaign finance reform in the senate. Just repeal the 17th amendment.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrSDyc9mlRcJ3S4 by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:44:53Z
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There are some serious efforts underway to side step the EC with the 'National Popular Vote Interstate Compact'. Then on the flip side, install term limits via convention of states per article 5. The NPVIC has 14 states and the CoS has 15 states committed. Both are wrong and both are gaining in popularity growing support. This is a problem. 1913 all over again.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrSJIIO2Ti6nIjw by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:47:52Z
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We all agree there is problems. Rather than further mutating the constitutional apparatus as originally set forth, where we agree we cannot equal or surpass the orginal plan. It would be wiser to restore it, or at least the critical link, the selection method of Senators. That’s not just expanding tax authority, that’s altering the entire mechanism of the federal government to exclude the states! No wonder everting is off keel.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrSTveqXuF5lnJg by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:49:13Z
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The convention of states is the only answer here. It’s never been done. With good cause. There are wise and misplaced objections to the CoS. Each state will appoint representatives to attend this convention. Sitting house and senate members will play no part. The states bypassing the congress to amend the constitution is the whole point of the convention.
(DIR) Post #9hKtrSZFL4ncVaG2bY by Dawnz@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:52:57Z
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@TomStark913 I need to learn more about it before i form an opinion..🤔
(DIR) Post #9hKuo4APheC7uuaWQK by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:50:01Z
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Worries of a ‘run away’ convention come up often. These are state reps coming together for an expressed purpose and afterwards the same ratification process still applies. There will be nothing run away about it.
(DIR) Post #9hKuo4PIoI6Wf5YPdA by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:52:46Z
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The founders depended on the human nature, preservation of power, in designing our government construct of many checks, balances and counterweights. Ambition was meant to check ambition. Again brilliant! Every state has immense power to gain within the federal apparatus with the repeal of the 17th amendment. It’s a wonder the states were willing surrendered their power back in 1913. Hence the power of propaganda.
(DIR) Post #9hKuo4ZEDO2n9sCL6O by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:53:30Z
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Sovereign states, with EVERYTHING to gain, must refocus their goals. Rather than institute term limits, take their rightful seat back at the federal table. Make repealing the 17th the sole purpose of the convention and make it happen. After the convention concludes, the states will then have to ratify the amendment just as if congress had passed it.
(DIR) Post #9hKuo4qFC7eg0e9vcm by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T16:54:17Z
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With the 17 amendment repealed we’ll have defacto term limits, instant campaign finance reform, reinvigoration of federalism and, most importantly, after a century in the ashes, our republic will be reborn! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
(DIR) Post #9hKutfmLI5iQ120DDc by gunsmithkat@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T17:04:36Z
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@TomStark913 That would certainly be my number 1 goal for a COS.
(DIR) Post #9hL3NkAsJNCByAKLh2 by DeadManWalking@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T17:03:17Z
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@TomStark913 As Saul has indicated, the Achilles heel of a CoS is the grifters who would co-opt it for their purposes.Don't kid yourself, they're prepared.Here's one analysis of how these "grass roots" efforts fail:http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=16880
(DIR) Post #9hL3NkL9h9Q2U38YiW by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:21:21Z
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@DeadManWalking entering with an expressed nerrow purpose coupled with the fact anything has to be ratified afterwards asauges my concerns. Congress could vote to releal the bill of rights tomorrow, think they have the votes? Think 37 states would ratify that into law? No and no. The convention would be no different. The states play congresses role in the amendment process. That's it. All else withstands.
(DIR) Post #9hL3NkhUM7HdbJaOWm by DeadManWalking@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:35:22Z
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@TomStark913 Think 37 states won't enter into the National Popular Vote movement?We'll see ...
(DIR) Post #9hL3Nl237fjKd5CoZk by Debradelai@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:39:40Z
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@DeadManWalking @TomStark913 How does this nonsense have anything to to with Tom's point?
(DIR) Post #9hL3cGgYEXIWr24M1A by DeadManWalking@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:42:18Z
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@Debradelai @TomStark913 Your point was that the CoS would be co-opted.His point was the 3/4 ratification process would prevent mischief.My point is the NPV adoption is steadily progressing, and may cross the 3/4 "barrier,"disproving his point.
(DIR) Post #9hL42FmGEQ5pZG8A52 by JJ@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T17:11:17Z
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@TomStark913 Here is the text of Article 5 for referenceThe Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution,
(DIR) Post #9hL42FxxWvS09XbVJY by JJ@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T17:11:59Z
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@TomStark913 when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first & fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; & that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
(DIR) Post #9hL42G672byMYpQ11U by JJ@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T17:16:22Z
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@TomStark913 So I posted then deleted a reply - the trouble imo is that a convention is soverign, amendment can mean entirely changing the Constitution or one small part. There is no limit.Past or present congresscritter involvement is assured. Nothing in Constitution dictates who can be appointed.Run away convention is likely, not a possibility, given the climate.
(DIR) Post #9hL42GEGYIUiy7EWjQ by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:02:07Z
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@JJ the states would still have to ratify. You see 37 states seriously changing the whole constitution? I don't. Maybe up to 10, may be. Have a expressed purpose, meet with regard to that. Congress can do the same thing anytime they wish. #justSayingThe same thresholds exist. This simply give the states a way around congress should they become too currupt or otherwise fail to address important issues.
(DIR) Post #9hL42GTVdcghjOMhUW by JJ@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:46:07Z
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@TomStark913 I have looked into the current COS projectThey ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to define the amendments they want
(DIR) Post #9hL42Ghgmu1wRN01aq by Lonestar@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:46:59Z
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@JJ @TomStark913 - Looked into them a few years ago and found much the same. It's a Pandora's Box IMO.
(DIR) Post #9hL4rtabyFLZoNJ4TI by Debradelai@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:56:20Z
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@DeadManWalking @TomStark913 No. His point is that attempts to modify the Constitution by amendment or convention would fail.The idiocy you refer to is not constrained by the 2/4td-3/4th rule, has nothing to do with rewriting the Constitution and is no more, ultimately, than an exercise in political masturbation."We'll see."
(DIR) Post #9hL51OJz511JjN3bpQ by DeadManWalking@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T18:58:03Z
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@Debradelai @TomStark913 Agreed.The NPV plan is triggered at 270 EV, not 3/4 of the states.Which is probably why they are trying it.Of course, there will be the inevitable legal challenge.What will be interesting is whether there will be an impact on the 2020 results.
(DIR) Post #9hL710lGsIf6ZMlcOG by Debradelai@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T19:20:22Z
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@DeadManWalking @TomStark913 No shit, Sherlock.Hence your answer to Tom was irrelevant, at best.Now you answer as if you hadn't been told.There'll be no legal challenge, not that it'd matter if there was.States decide how they appoint their ellectors.This whole thing is a distraction.Fools and idiots fall for it, though.
(DIR) Post #9hL8oia4qN12cInTVo by TomStark913@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T19:21:48Z
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@DeadManWalking @Debradelai I believe that NVP is DOA, but I find it's support concerning to say the least.I mainly mention it as a tie in to the over all theme of order, and to illustrate that's about a silly as term limits.
(DIR) Post #9hL8oir5p6cvT4l42C by DeadManWalking@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T19:29:59Z
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@TomStark913 @Debradelai Saul's point about the states determining their electors is true, of course.Earlier, I linked to https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A2Sec1.html.I was calling attention to the NPV effort because the rapid progress indicates an organized effort to get it passed.My point was that folks who have the resources to mount such an effort could also devote them to co-opting a CoS.The willingness of so many state legislatures to adopt NPV indicates the 3/4 ratification firewall might not hold.
(DIR) Post #9hL8oj2R8vhW2G47iS by Debradelai@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T19:40:34Z
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@DeadManWalking @TomStark913You seem to be unusually slow this Sunday.A series of non-sequiturs do not make an argument.
(DIR) Post #9hL9HD7Stb37RG04jg by DeadManWalking@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T19:45:43Z
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@Debradelai True enough.You haven't lost your enthusiasm for ad hominem, though.
(DIR) Post #9hLHWIkP3J3as2v6Bc by Debradelai@social.quodverum.com
2019-03-31T21:18:06Z
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@DeadManWalking Idiot is as idiot states.Call it what you will.