Post 9gGHx1B2uP1ASlUE9Q by harding@hash.social
(DIR) More posts by harding@hash.social
(DIR) Post #9gDyKxs8SfqblNrYHo by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T03:28:05Z
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While I can understand :birdsite: @real_vijay's reasoning, it still makes me sadhttps://tweetstamp.org/1099867809889214464
(DIR) Post #9gE0Cub0xSjLC68tBQ by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T11:09:01.133399Z
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@FreePietje I think it's an artifact of the trust chain being public. If Sadr had sent Boyapati an invoice via private correspondence, nobody else would know about it or an associated payment, so there would be less concern about rule breaking. Indeed, for all we know, Sadr's node has been routing trust chain xfers and collecting routing fees, leaving all U.S. citizens involved in possible violation of sanctions---but this is hidden, so it's (hopefully) not actionable.
(DIR) Post #9gEJR9mBDK2PSQs3cG by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T14:41:41Z
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@harding Yep, I think that's the reason too. Giacomo laid out that scenario as well.Nonetheless, I've always been annoyed by people shaming others for being morally deficient, Statist!!, you're not a true cypherpunk, etcAnd it's those same people who are now pulling a Kevin Pham.The people who screamed the loudest "uncensorable, borderless money" are now saying "Uncle Sam doesn't want me to, so I won't", which seems at least a bit hypocritical.Love Ziya's rebuttal:https://twitter.com/Ziya_Sadr/status/1099920852685074432
(DIR) Post #9gENlo83ICEmDZCi8m by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T15:31:40Z
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@harding The moment Samson Mow tweeted enthusiastically that Reid Hoffman (whom I didn't know) had send a LN invoice, I knew Adam Back would fail the test (imo) :-/Ziya has, again, posted a new invoice and hodlnaut has brought extra attention to this situation which I find quite damaging for bitcoin's reputation/standing.Also worth noting:Someone responded to a Ziya tweet "Will you send it to Israel?" and his answer was a straightforward "Yes" ✌️
(DIR) Post #9gEOmXojWY9bs85D60 by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T15:44:22.762875Z
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@FreePietje Eh, I think it'd be highly irresponsible for Back to send the money to Iran and, if he'd done so, I wouldn't be surprised if he was immediately removed as CEO of Blockstream---a company with many customers that are (somewhat) regulated financial institutions. I don't blame him at all.
(DIR) Post #9gEjWRxXdMzg6lMzZI by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T16:27:34Z
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@harding Agreed, and thus I understand this too.What is also true, is that this has caused severe damage to my wish/hope that bitcoin was a way to get away from the tyranny of the United States.While realizing that technically/theoretically bitcoin is still censorship resistant, the following line from Linus Torvalds pops into my head:"Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time."
(DIR) Post #9gEjWSB0pHlkmXfkZ6 by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-26T19:36:45Z
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@FreePietje @harding I just catched up on the story, I guess it should makes it clear that when the US gov will really try to fight back, we won't win just that easily
(DIR) Post #9gEmRJt0WQWtU5UiOW by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T20:09:27.989540Z
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@Sosthene @FreePietje I really think that there's confusion here. There's a difference between doing something illegal and tweeting about doing something illegal.I can't find it, but (apropos this topic) there was a great Tweet by Adam Back a few years ago to the effect of "privacy never seems particularly popular because the people who need it the most are also the people least able to talk about using it."
(DIR) Post #9gEmxn8tHeK9UHPK7s by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-02-26T20:14:55Z
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@harding @Sosthene @FreePietje Sosthene, I totally agree that this is a subject to be discussed. But this pattern has been repeated over the years. Pretty much all prominent core devs have been super-straight laced.For example, people you'd expect to be enthusiastic about developing coinjoin decided not to do it (more than one), even though it's a real stretch to imagine that it's illegal or something.This is a job for nyms, not people, ultimately (gray area for now).
(DIR) Post #9gEsZd9FOEkVGXR7nE by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T20:58:51Z
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@harding @Sosthene https://twitter.com/adam3us/status/882035175533584384 ?
(DIR) Post #9gEsZdSkDkLSF0YhBQ by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T21:18:10.720320Z
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@FreePietje @Sosthene Yes! Your google-fu is strong.
(DIR) Post #9gEslqBYk9OXAvL9zk by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T21:06:29Z
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Haha, this is awesome:https://twitter.com/LaurentMT/status/1100496030267789312"Hi @Ziya_Sadr. Do you have a Paynym? Since LN payment channels seem to have a problem with Iran, let's start a #PaynymTorch based on BIP47 payment tunnels."
(DIR) Post #9gEslqQRqnIvv6J3Ca by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T21:20:21.866327Z
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@FreePietje That feels like FUDing to me. The problem isn't LN, it's people being unwilling to tweet about criminal activity---which should apply to BIP47 too. (And BIP47 is a technically crappy idea.)
(DIR) Post #9gEtBChq9JGsGGX8Yi by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T21:24:29Z
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@harding @Sosthene Adam referenced it ~18 hours ago and as I was keeping tabs on who'd get the Torch after him, I saw it come by ;)
(DIR) Post #9gEtDDjFJlfW0p9WbY by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T21:25:21.958105Z
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@FreePietje @Sosthene Ha! Good timing, then!
(DIR) Post #9gEzsknfraSKBBPaam by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-26T22:40:05Z
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@waxwing @harding @FreePietje I think I wasn't very clear, and maybe a bit hot-headed. I got @harding point about doing sth != tweeting about it, and I won't criticize Adam Back or anyone else for not boasting on Twitter. My point was more that honey moon is still not over, and I'm a bit afraid when I read (not here) that gov have already tried to fight Bitcoin, bc we have really seen nothing yet, and even now if some devs are afraid to work on some projects, I think it's a matter of concern.
(DIR) Post #9gF0iXRil5obowptfk by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-26T22:49:27Z
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@harding @FreePietje I didn't take the time to check this paynym stuff yet, but can you explain in one toot why it is a crappy idea ?
(DIR) Post #9gF2YhhNz5yAdCbLlI by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T23:10:01Z
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@Sosthene @waxwing @harding I completely agree with you and also your previous toot.I also agree with David and understand Adam/Vijay/Giacomo (https://twitter.com/giacomozucco/status/1099949947053584384).At the same time, I too think it's a matter of concern. And this is 'just' financial censorship.I think we've seen nothing yet when it comes to how govs can make it hard for bitcoin to thrive and them already 'succeeding' by excluding an Iranian, given the over-confidence on :birdsite:, doesn't sit well with me.
(DIR) Post #9gF3UiM9hJGHSzKgYi by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T23:20:33.638533Z
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@Sosthene @FreePietje During counterparty setup:- Wastes a minimum of 200 vbytes of block chain space- Have to send two txes at least one block apart, delaying initial paymentAfter setup- "Incautious handling of change outputs from notification transactions may cause unintended loss of privacy." -BIP47- Have to put BIP47 processing in the inner scanning loop, making privacy wallet design harder (but still easy for wallets that lose privacy by outsourcing scanning :-()
(DIR) Post #9gF3Z4dWnnaTj3XN7g by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T20:31:18Z
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@waxwing @harding @Sosthene Coinjoin/mixers are considered money laundering in NL.And I agree with you.I think the main issue I have with this situation is all those people who talked tough and principled, bail out when it comes to actually putting it into action.I really understand the reasoning/arguments (esp bc it's public), but if 'OGs' aren't willing to take a principled stance, who will?
(DIR) Post #9gF3Z4qI2LnOMdVZ0y by BTCHODL@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-26T22:52:07Z
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@FreePietje @waxwing @harding @Sosthene If Coinjoin is considered money laundering, then Liquid and Lightning will be labeled as such
(DIR) Post #9gF3Z56F52YXA6yIsa by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-02-26T23:00:10Z
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@BTCHODL @FreePietje @harding @Sosthene Well yes and no; with LN you have that you're improving scaling (and cost, speed, all mixed together) while also improving privacy. So that gives cover for improving privacy. ( A lot more to discuss in there ofc, but that's a big deal).
(DIR) Post #9gF4SIsTYW1bowrenA by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T23:31:20.061220Z
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@waxwing @FreePietje @Sosthene My biggest regret[1] in Bitcoin is that I naively began contributing documentation under my real name. If I'd been smart, I'd have used a nym and maybe a slightly different writing style than I used elsewhere (can't use a hugely different style because I like my style---that's why I use it!).[1] Why not buy coins instead? Read this: https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5jgn6h/to_the_top/dbg64xm/
(DIR) Post #9gF5fF3RBJMhgLj0u8 by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-26T23:43:50Z
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@harding @waxwing @Sosthene Having to act schizophrenic has its downsides too ;-P
(DIR) Post #9gF5fFHcKahwOKML0S by harding@hash.social
2019-02-26T23:44:51.715155Z
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@FreePietje @Sosthene @waxwing True! Look at poor CobraBitcoin.
(DIR) Post #9gFYQThDMM05Q2duTo by samouraidev@mastodon.social
2019-02-27T05:07:08Z
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@Sosthene @FreePietje 1/ Notification txs are designed to allow full wallet restore from the blockchain. They are not necessary for the address derivation scheme to function. Samourai Wallet is phasing out the use of notif txs altogether. So the "space wasted" via OP_RETURN argument is moot. 2/ Not sure what the "2 txs at least 1 block apart" argument is. Sounds like severe FUD.
(DIR) Post #9gFqZAZ5ejRRrm8XPE by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-27T08:30:24Z
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@harding @waxwing @FreePietje I noticed that outsiders often don't get why there are so many pseudonyms in Bitcoin, it looks like childish folklore to them. I must admit I was thinking this also before, but later on I began to understand there's more to that, and now I think that maybe we all should try to imitate Satoshi to the best of our capacity. Ideally no one serious about his involvement in bitcoin should ever go along with his real identity
(DIR) Post #9gFrkxnT3MKLhD37U8 by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-02-27T07:42:20Z
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@harding @FreePietje I have my doubts. Sending a few dollars to a guy in Iran is not the same as doing a business deal, especially if you act in a personal capacity, not as a CEO
(DIR) Post #9gFrky5Xy8mybHVYfI by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-27T08:43:44Z
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@waxwing @harding @FreePietje If someone from the government says it is, you'll have a hard time arguing against it :)I find it interesting that in our western democracies people are increasingly feeling unsafe to even step into the grey area of stupid and outright authoritarian legislation (I don't blame anyone, gov proved it doesn't give a shit if it wants to make an example out of ya). It reminds me of China. It looks like the rule of law disappeared at some point and we didn't notice
(DIR) Post #9gFtfzguma9W20k5s8 by waxwing@mastodon.social
2019-02-27T09:05:15Z
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@Sosthene @harding @FreePietje It may remind you of China, but it's nothing like it.It disturbs me that so few have any gumption. People seem to feel like they have too much to lose maybe, or have somehow habituated to never take any kind of risk. So 'govt' never gets any pushback.
(DIR) Post #9gFzOZjWdikUKJ2b5M by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-27T10:09:21Z
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@waxwing @harding @FreePietje Spot on, now imagine how much of us will react when our gov goes half as authoritarian as the chinese one is today. I think there's some truth about what you says, too much to lose and not used to taking risks, but I wonder if there's not another issue with, I don't know how to put it, "solidarity against oppression"?
(DIR) Post #9gFzg0Q4fqV811FpLc by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-27T10:12:30Z
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@waxwing @harding @FreePietje I'll take an example: in France, the governement handle the yellow vests protests with much less care than the riot in the suburbs. Why? Because yellow vests are mostly law abiding, working citizens, and are not a "community". otoh, mostly immigrants, muslims suburbs have a strong sense of "us and them". Hurt a yellow vest, nothing happens, hurt a suburbs youth, and you have thousands of them burning stuff in the streets.
(DIR) Post #9gG01EECWswovHovY0 by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-27T10:16:19Z
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@waxwing @harding @FreePietje I'm not arguing that mob rule is good, but to resist authority you need some community other than the state apparatus. If we are all alone, gov can just keep crushing us like bugs one at a time. There's no wonder all totalitarian governments always rised when society was disrupted by war, and then tried to destroy all bounds between individuals
(DIR) Post #9gGFBBko57CdSSHLkG by laurentmt@mamot.fr
2019-02-27T12:22:41Z
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@harding @FreePietje I confirm that it's not about FUDing or criticizing a specific tech. The point is that what started as a nice experiment (the LNTorch) has become a kind of celebration of the tech for the sake of the tech with almost everyone avoiding to answer Zyad's tweets...
(DIR) Post #9gGFBC6QmiV4XWOcS0 by harding@hash.social
2019-02-27T13:06:10.637686Z
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@laurentmt @FreePietje I'm glad to hear that. If sending money to an Iranian is restricted in your jurisdiction, I also honor you for your public act of civil disobedience.Do you also think your collegue @samourai_official isn't specifically criticizing LN here? https://mobile.twitter.com/SamouraiWallet/status/1100590796217163777
(DIR) Post #9gGFRLOnzMyU0NgvZ2 by laurentmt@mamot.fr
2019-02-27T12:24:27Z
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@harding @FreePietje But don't get me wrong. The point isn't to shame people who refused to send the torch to Zyad. Actually, I have a lot of respect for people like Vijay who clearly stated why they didn't do it. It takes courage to write a tweet like this one https://twitter.com/real_vijay/status/1099867809889214464
(DIR) Post #9gGFRLel23jcnr9fQe by laurentmt@mamot.fr
2019-02-27T12:29:50Z
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@harding @FreePietje The thing is that there's no good reason that someone in Iran hasn't received the torch yet. Crypto-Twitter is full of pseudonymous accounts who are able to do this transfer. The LNTorch is all about symbols and it would be a very sad symbol that it's conclusion is that Bitcoin has already lost against the Panopticon.
(DIR) Post #9gGHx0v5riG1fI1UHo by laurentmt@mamot.fr
2019-02-27T13:23:49Z
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@harding @FreePietje @samourai_official Actually I think it takes more courage for writing a tweet as Vijay did than for sending a few bucks to an Iranian bitcoiner from Europe.WRT samourai's comment, I don't think it's a criticism of LN. Seems more like a criticism of what the LNTorch experiment has become.
(DIR) Post #9gGHx1B2uP1ASlUE9Q by harding@hash.social
2019-02-27T13:37:14.722616Z
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@laurentmt @samourai_official @FreePietje ok. Can't say I was a fan of the torch thing anyway. Bitcoin for me is mostly about trustlessness and the beneficial properties we can derive from that (such as not needing protocol-level identities). The *trust* chain confuses that.OTOH, I understand people just want to have fun and play with new tech.
(DIR) Post #9gGKALsLSoWUKZE1gG by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-27T14:02:03Z
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@Sosthene @waxwing @harding Indeed, great example :)If the 'hardcore-bitcoiners' aren't that community, then who will?On :birdsite: 'everyone' was always screaming "it's us vs them", but all the supposed anarchists went silent when it mattered.Were all those grandstanding OGs just empty virtue signalers? 🤔
(DIR) Post #9gGKtSDGkQav18WDTc by samouraidev@mastodon.social
2019-02-27T13:48:34Z
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@harding @laurentmt @FreePietje @samourai_official "Specifically criticizing" LN is not allowed. All offenders will be barred from future newsletter mentions by the gatekeeper. You have been warned.
(DIR) Post #9gGKtSUdhqUNt0e5YG by harding@hash.social
2019-02-27T14:10:13.545490Z
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@samouraidev @samourai_official @FreePietje @laurentmt that phrasing was a response to Laurent saying, "it's not about criticizing specific tech".I have no problem with people criticizing LN, although I'd prefer to see it done with more integrity than the linked tweet. My comment on this topic has always been that the problem is publicly performing criminal activity rather than the specific payment method used.
(DIR) Post #9gGLBAIY5rEKfTQw9A by laurentmt@mamot.fr
2019-02-27T14:12:00Z
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@harding @samourai_official @FreePietje Sadly, it's also an excellent metaphor of Bittrex confiscating the coins of hundred of Iranian users for months without even answering their tickets. https://twitter.com/Ziya_Sadr/status/1084900511634071552
(DIR) Post #9gGM0xUcwpoO0mmQGu by harding@hash.social
2019-02-27T14:22:47.484343Z
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@FreePietje @waxwing @Sosthene do you have a list of the people Sadr offered to take the torch from? I thought it was a pretty short list.I'm also curious about whether I'm on your list of potential empty virtue signalers. I don't think I've promoted an us-vs-them mentality or otherwise acted hypocritically in this situation (where I certainly would not has passed the torch to Sadr myself), but if I have acted wrong, I want to know about it.
(DIR) Post #9gGOBFIRoFEU257GE4 by FreePietje@x0f.org
2019-02-27T14:45:37Z
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@harding @waxwing @Sosthene No, I don't consider you an empty virtue signaler. At all.I've always considered Kevin Pham to be the biggest virtue signaler with all his big words, acting like a tough guy, etc. And there were a LOT of ppl on :birdsite: who thought he was the greatest.Look at him now.Pretending it's all black vs white and no nuance (and grandstanding about it) would make one a candidate.I don't recall you ever doing that.
(DIR) Post #9gGOtmzTtfC3H5U77o by harding@hash.social
2019-02-27T14:55:06.534151Z
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@FreePietje @Sosthene @waxwing oh, good. 😀 Thanks. If you ever do think I'm doing something wrong---technically, socially, or otherwise---please do tell me. I've seen too many good Bitcoiners walk themselves over cliffs that everyone could see a kilometer away because good criticism wasn't offered or (more often) was ignored.
(DIR) Post #9gGVWp3WkeZohNNBUu by Traca@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-27T16:09:23Z
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@Sosthene @waxwing @harding @FreePietje I guess if we haven't seen "nothing yet" its because they can not... since the beginning of history they have always attacked anything which can competes with their monopoly of money. The last I reemember is the news of running a node could be ilegal as some pedo content was included in blockchain so storing full blockchain should be illegal as its sharing "child pornography".
(DIR) Post #9gH7wpWFRqnbvGdRwW by Sosthene@bitcoinhackers.org
2019-02-27T23:19:53Z
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@Traca @waxwing @harding @FreePietje I wouldn't underestimate an enemy like the state. Bitcoin might be pretty much out of their reach, but we are all mortals