Post 701212 by kaniini@pleroma.site
(DIR) More posts by kaniini@pleroma.site
(DIR) Post #697669 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T19:32:30.798543Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
actually the language I would probably propose is something along the lines of:Project participants are expected to maintain a calm, professional demeanor when participating in the project space. Failure to adhere to these expectations may result in temporary or permanent removal from the project space. Breaches of these expectations are determined at the discretion of project administrators.
(DIR) Post #697689 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T19:34:12.540624Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
you could call it the ISC license of CoCs. it's short, it's to the point, and it's realistic.
(DIR) Post #697712 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-22T19:35:21.792122Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kaniini so it's pronounced "ice cock" ? ISC CoC
(DIR) Post #697717 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T19:35:43.781490Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jeff that sounds like a sex toy
(DIR) Post #697735 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-22T19:36:36.009181Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@kaniini "the dick makes it better"
(DIR) Post #697757 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T19:38:15.851783Z
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(if you're wondering, the reason why i'm discussing CoCs is because we're considering text of a standard CoC to attach to our FOSS projects at $dayjob)
(DIR) Post #697928 by millenomi@lily.network
2018-10-22T19:47:29Z
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@kaniini the point of a CoC is to create promises that you will reduce elements of discrimination and investigate complaints fairly. When a company makes them, they’re usually legally binding, which makes a big difference.
(DIR) Post #697929 by millenomi@lily.network
2018-10-22T19:47:56Z
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@kaniini “Be nice or else” covers none of those aims.
(DIR) Post #697930 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T19:53:23.009072Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@millenomi yes, that is true, but you have to start somewhere. it is better to start from a position of general expectations, and then discuss how complaints are investigated, reported and handled afterward. i haven't written that part yet.a flaw with many CoCs is that they target specific types of marginalization, but leave others alone. for all to be truly equal, it is best to not get into specifics. specifics make people feel unequal and encourage rule-lawyering.
(DIR) Post #697971 by millenomi@lily.network
2018-10-22T19:54:44Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kaniini lack of specifics undermine them as binding promises.This is a ‘better nothing than something’ kind of argument which I really can’t buy especially because a lot of legwork has been done already by e.g. Covenant adopters.
(DIR) Post #697972 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T19:56:57.717257Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@millenomi Contributor Covenant is disliked by our lawyers. They want something more along the lines of FSFE's CoC statement.
(DIR) Post #698025 by millenomi@lily.network
2018-10-22T19:57:25Z
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@kaniini That’s not relevant to the line of discussion.
(DIR) Post #698026 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T20:00:10.852014Z
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@millenomi actually, it is, because the FSFE CoC is roughly the same format.anyway, we will agree to disagree on this one.
(DIR) Post #698104 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-22T20:04:27.822327Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@millenomi @kaniini this ISC style CoC assumes that everyone who is able to contribute are able to act like adults as well. I find it a bit condescending to assume that marginalized groups need special protection. why can't those protections apply to everyone? that helps MORE people that way and people can't paint it as political pressure from crazies as it's not.
(DIR) Post #698166 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T20:07:48.470157Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@jeff honestly the FSFE statement is probably good enough for my needs. it reads as: We invite and encourage everybody to express their opinions on relevant topics. All participants should at all times feel at ease to do so without fearing any form of attack, reprisal or harassment. We ask everybody to be respectful and considerate towards each other, especially when attempting to provide constructive criticism.To foster tolerance, respect and hospitality in our community, we agree not to engage in discriminatory, disparaging or offensive speech or actions, including as to (but not limited to) gender, sexuality, race, nationality, religion or profession. We are a community of many different nationalities and backgrounds, and we cherish our strength in diversity. that’s probably good enough for most projects, honestly.we could call that one the BSD 3-clause of CoCs.
(DIR) Post #698236 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-22T20:10:43.085752Z
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@kaniini I just find it sad that things have gotten to the point where you need to explicitly state these ground rules in text. If your community has gotten to the point where a CoC is required it's probably beyond saving. As a pre-emptive measure to keep out the rabid ideologues on both ends of the spectrum that block of text would suffice. it's just kinda lame that we need them now. god damnit.
(DIR) Post #698272 by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-22T20:12:19.538957Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeff @kaniini the thing is that majority of high profile CoC adoptions were in areas where behaviour of contributors was never an issue - but shit was adopted due to insider and outsider pressure
(DIR) Post #698290 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-22T20:13:28.356143Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@roka @kaniini and to subdue such pressure, we now have to fill that slot with some boilerplate to keep the crazies from filling it with crazy.
(DIR) Post #698302 by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-22T20:14:23.442082Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeff @kaniini stuff like old FreeBSD's code of conduct was okay but I'll admit that SQLite's really appealed to me w
(DIR) Post #698345 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T20:16:18.032873Z
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@roka @jeff i don't see anything harmful about adopting a standard if it helps to encourage people that their concerns would be handled if it ever became necessary.i just feel that a lot of CoCs are badly written, and i feel like being as unopinionated as possible is a good approach.
(DIR) Post #698401 by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-22T20:18:35.773302Z
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@kaniini @jeff yeah.Broadly speaking, having even a redundant document outlining sanctionable behaviour *might* make some sense if only to have some written backup when you're actually forced to purge someone. Problem is that le diverse CoCs carry political payload by outlining „special people” and often encroaching into areas of private life (which leads to witch hunts).Ehhhhhh.
(DIR) Post #698427 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T20:19:15.805526Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@roka @jeff hince the FSFE statement which doesn't do this :)
(DIR) Post #698437 by feld@bikeshed.party
2018-10-22T20:19:50.752186Z
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@kaniini "Be civil" is pretty concise too.
(DIR) Post #698459 by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-22T20:20:43.388156Z
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@kaniini @jeff yeah, I don't hate it whave a rabi~en~rose9f7fdd26cf326b60864366a79bc8ae7…
(DIR) Post #698470 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-22T20:21:04.621968Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kaniini @roka most CoCs are badly written because the concept of them are fundamentally flawed, i.e. "we can be more free we just need more rules"you just got to let people be who they are and contribute in the most productive way they can. you don't need a CoC to do that, you just need a good strong leader that isn't a dickhead.
(DIR) Post #698483 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T20:21:51.203959Z
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@jeff @roka again, hince why the FSFE statement is a statement to that effect.
(DIR) Post #698508 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-22T20:23:04.860969Z
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@kaniini @roka yup, just yammering on trying to have an excuse to stay on lunch break.
(DIR) Post #699568 by lugh@hyenas.space
2018-10-22T21:11:47Z
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@millenomi @kaniini I agree with millenomi on this one...CoC’s should be specific/explicit
(DIR) Post #699569 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T21:12:47.221387Z
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@lugh @millenomi feel free to run your projects with whatever CoC you wish.
(DIR) Post #699950 by lugh@hyenas.space
2018-10-22T21:24:28Z
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@kaniini @millenomi planning on it 👍🏻Continue the “fork off” mindset towards your fellow queers, while also subtooting loudly about how shitty Masto queers are because we haven’t moved to your software yet👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
(DIR) Post #699951 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T21:28:33.147625Z
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@lugh @millenomi i think that is a little ridiculous. i just said i supported you in making whatever decisions you felt best for your own projects.
(DIR) Post #699990 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T21:31:08.839719Z
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@lugh @millenomi and finally, i am not subtooting loudly about how shitty Masto queers are because you haven't moved to my software yet.i have complained about a few people who point at a single pleroma instance and make the assumption that they are the epicenter of the entire pleroma community.
(DIR) Post #700090 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T21:35:32.345162Z
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@lughis there some reason why you are being so aggressive toward me due to not having the exact same opinion on CoCs?
(DIR) Post #700436 by lugh@hyenas.space
2018-10-22T21:41:44Z
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@kaniini Because you’re being a hypocrite? I sincerely was hoping for better moderation and safety tools with the software- but not from a programmer who is just gonna flippantly “fork off” type messages?I’m done. Since you don’t want to listen.
(DIR) Post #700437 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T21:48:16.266664Z
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@lugh how am i being a hypocrite? the FSFE-style code of conduct and the contributor covenant disallow the same behavior. it is a matter of preference, nothing more.the person who is being a hypocrite is actually you: you're harassing me because we disagree on which CoC has the better approach, which is a violation of basically any CoC on the planet.so, i'm blocking you, have a nice life.
(DIR) Post #700793 by slphilxyz@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T22:02:03.441342Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@lugh @kaniini What obnoxious and entitled behavior. Its no wonder your circles are trollbait.
(DIR) Post #700818 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T22:04:11.309193Z
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@slphilxyz yes, needless to say i was somewhat surprised. i thought we were pretty much advocating for the same thing: more inclusion, more diversity, and a more friendly project space.apparently not.
(DIR) Post #700904 by slphilxyz@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T22:07:43.750147Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kaniini I used to be tangentially involved in a libre distro that was based in South America, and I saw ardent conservative Catholics and open queers get along very well even though their personal philosophies were at odds. A failure to maintain a kind of impersonal distance is exactly why net culture has turned into an enormous semi-tribal shitfight.Just, like, don't make a big deal of things, man.
(DIR) Post #700916 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T22:08:14.496099Z
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@slphilxyz that is, essentially, the point of the FSFE statement yes.
(DIR) Post #700933 by slphilxyz@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T22:08:36.862854Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kaniini but a maximal CoC would have pushed a lot of people out because these people will hound you and chase you out if they find you once tweeted about your feelings on gay marriage in 2006
(DIR) Post #700945 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T22:09:33.933029Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@slphilxyz that's my point: there's a sweet spot, and that sweet spot is where everyone feels welcome.
(DIR) Post #701211 by mawr@plush.city
2018-10-22T22:11:09Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@kaniini @lugh @millenomi No buddy, what you said was "feel free to run your projects with whatever CoC you wish" in response to someone pointing out that you were making a poorly researched and generally bad decision.Given that context, what you clearly _meant_ by what you said could be summarized as a condescending dismissal using friendly words.Don't pretend the anger came from nowhere. You're working on a doctorate in psychology. You should know better.
(DIR) Post #701212 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T22:24:04.515979Z
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@mawr @millenomi @lugh while i agree that i said it in a way that may have been a little shitty, i honestly do wish that people use whatever CoCs they feel appropriate for their own communities and projects.in my case, the people who have agreed to do conflict mediation in the projects in question, requested that we use a CoC format that is more broad and flexible. this doesn't make using a more rigid CoC format such as Contributor Covenant a bad choice, it was just not the choice that the people we have doing conflict mediation wanted to use. i feel it is important to respect those people's wishes, since they are lawyers and have volunteered to assist with mediation.i felt that they (lugh and millenomi) were a little pushy about my preference to use more of a flexible guideline approach instead of a rigid approach, so i was admittedly snippy in response -- i don't like feeling like i am being pushed in a specific direction. to that extent, i am willing to apologize for my snippyness.community management is an art, not a science -- there's no single right way to handle these types of issues, and it's only important that these issues get handled in some sort of positive way.
(DIR) Post #701727 by mawr@plush.city
2018-10-22T22:36:33Z
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@kaniiniI would not describe @millenomi's comments as pushy, but rather as statements of research backed fact which stand at odds with your rebuttals-- which all seem to be statements of preference as they're not otherwise qualified. @lugh replied to agree with @millenomi and then responded with upset in reply to the condescending dismissal noted earlier.The way you are describing these interactions seems to take into account their upset at you after you condescendingly dismissed them.
(DIR) Post #701728 by mawr@plush.city
2018-10-22T22:43:39Z
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@kaniini On the subject of your Code of Conduct, the style of CoC you are proposing has been found time and time again to be ineffective.https://www.ashedryden.com/blog/codes-of-conduct-101-faq#cocfaqnegativeYou're welcome to do with that information as you wish, but there is plenty of evidence to back this up. This is not pushing opinions, this is clearly stating an established fact.
(DIR) Post #701729 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T22:45:55.129264Z
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@mawr halfway through the thread, before they replied to me, I decided to use the FSFE code of conduct.https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconducti think it's a pretty good code of conduct, it's short and only a complete asshole would disagree with it.i agree that negative codes of conduct are bad, i just wanted to find something as concise and friendly as possible.
(DIR) Post #702027 by mawr@plush.city
2018-10-22T22:56:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kaniini To clarify: that link is specifically meant to rebut the argument that "Negative [focused] codes of conduct are bad" and you and I clearly do not share that opinion.That said, this is definitely an improvement on your initial CoC as it at least outlines a few negative things over which your moderation team would take action.If you want something concise, write a summary of the full document and encourage folks to read the full thing for clarification. That's what I did here. ^^
(DIR) Post #702028 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T23:00:51.439499Z
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@mawr my decision to use the FSFE CoC is largely based on this blog post: https://www.carmenbianca.eu/en/post/2018-03-09-how-we-conduct-ourselves/it is an interesting take, written by one of the main directors of the FSFE, and it makes some good arguments.if it is a failure, we can always try a different approach in the future, such as the contributor covenant, but the people who have volunteered to handle conflict mediation have expressed preference toward at least trying with a simple and concise legally-binding document first.
(DIR) Post #702296 by mawr@plush.city
2018-10-22T23:16:00Z
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@kaniini The arguments made in the article against use of that code of conduct aren't valid ones when considering the purpose of the document. Of course their itemizations center LGBT and women's issues; those are the issues most commonly run across in their groups.A CoC can never list everything, but if it plainly lists common infractions, there's no question about whether or not those things are violations of the CoC.CoCs exists primarily to define, empower, and protect moderation teams.
(DIR) Post #702297 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-22T23:20:49.664831Z
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@mawr that is a reasonable counterpoint, and i will express it with the people who agreed to do conflict mediation in this particular case.
(DIR) Post #703081 by lugh@hyenas.space
2018-10-22T21:10:32Z
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@jeff noShut up troll
(DIR) Post #703082 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-23T00:08:33.975263Z
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@lugh not trolling 100% serious my dude.
(DIR) Post #703160 by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-23T00:12:32.553423Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lugh I'd just like to interject for a moment. @jeff is not a troll, it's obviously a Russian putinbot.
(DIR) Post #703188 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-23T00:14:37.686605Z
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@roka @lugh beep beep
(DIR) Post #703214 by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-23T00:16:01.361530Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeff @lugh i could tell by your use of "my dude", no human being uses that phrase. Only Russians.
(DIR) Post #703241 by lizzeboof@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-23T00:17:36.618647Z
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@roka @jeff I do ;n;
(DIR) Post #703251 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-23T00:18:11.784914Z
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@lizzeboof @roka we found a russian zombie bot may we DDoS them?
(DIR) Post #703254 by dirb@social.beepboop.ga
2018-10-23T00:18:31.626191Z
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@jeff @roka @lugh boop boop
(DIR) Post #703258 by lizzeboof@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-23T00:18:52.243537Z
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@jeff @roka pls no
(DIR) Post #703259 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-23T00:19:14.926408Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@dirb @roka @lugh beep boop [dialup sounds]
(DIR) Post #703277 by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-23T00:20:51.029070Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lizzeboof @jeff oh shit, another one found me!sample_167157510cd7d149a2de8ca9…
(DIR) Post #703327 by dirb@social.beepboop.ga
2018-10-23T00:23:14.883561Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeff @roka @lugh beep boop [robot noises]
(DIR) Post #703359 by jeff@social.i2p.rocks
2018-10-23T00:26:02.077736Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@dirb @roka @lugh [modem transmitting russian bot traffic noises] ... MOM GET OFF THE PHONE.
(DIR) Post #707154 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:00:09.974879Z
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@ffs @jeff @lain @roka @moonman nothing in that thread has anything to do with Pleroma...
(DIR) Post #707183 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:03:29.247598Z
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@ffs @lain because my employer wanted to impose a standard CoC on projects they do.
(DIR) Post #707204 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:06:58.361041Z
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@ffs @lainagain, nothing in that thread discusses Pleroma project governance at all. go find something else to make drama about.
(DIR) Post #707205 by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2018-10-23T06:07:29.372961Z
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@ffs @jeff @kaniini @lain @moonman :cirnoHi:
(DIR) Post #707274 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:16:16.521520Z
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@ffs @lain the fact that you see the two as diametrically opposed says a lot about your world view. perhaps gab.ai would be a site more suited to it.
(DIR) Post #707419 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:30:00.387269Z
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@ffs @lain in fediverse projects, some have CoCs others dont. it doesn't really matter, because in all of them, there is code, and there are expectations of conduct. pleroma is no different in that regard. these things exist side by side and everyone gets along.why is this? because the fediverse is built on some shared values and ethos, specifically the view that mutual cooperation can yield a network greater than the sum of it's parts.so that means people of diverse backgrounds can get together and hack on pleroma and get things done.so ultimately, the charge that code and conduct are diametrically opposed is nonsense, because people already do what they need to do in order to get things done.so, to answer your question more fully: it doesn't matter to me if there is one or not, I will still be here writing code, as will basically everyone else. it's a nothingburger.
(DIR) Post #707446 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:32:57.060217Z
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@ffs @lain oh I see. I think there's a human element to the design of social services.that means such a model where all parties are anonymous and don't interact with each other, but the code evolves towards the most technically best solution based on inclusion of other anonymous contributions, isn't likely to work for something like this.but anonymous DVCS could be used as a solution for other things, like reverse engineering in locales where such activities are illegal.
(DIR) Post #707533 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:39:53.285571Z
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@ffs dtluna contributes to Pleroma FE from time to time and he plays by the same rules everyone else does, and he gets treated the same as everyone else. that seems to be the opposite of failure to me.
(DIR) Post #707616 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:45:40.686338Z
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@ffs @lain we have governance procedures for this. if there is conflict about a feature, it is discussed and tweaked until the steering committee approves it. the revision process of rich text support being an example of this procedure.
(DIR) Post #707642 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2018-10-23T06:48:39.227427Z
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@ffs conflicts of interest and general corruption is a concern I have as well, but I am confident that the project will evolve in a way that can deal with those concerns should they come up. we have come a long way already.