Post 69502 by lunch@knzk.me
(DIR) More posts by lunch@knzk.me
(DIR) Post #69448 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:48:58Z
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I have nuanced opinions on basically every thing and people can not handle it!
(DIR) Post #69450 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:49:34Z
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@lunch ah... I've found another True Centrist.
(DIR) Post #69476 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:52:13Z
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@mardiroos I'm a centrist alright, smack dab in the middle of the ultra left.
(DIR) Post #69502 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:53:37Z
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It's actually one of the most disappointing currents in the Left today that the idea of things having more than a simple answer is ignored or ridiculed as "centrism" when Marx was literally "Da Nuance Guy"
(DIR) Post #69514 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:54:32Z
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I am an uneducated hick from the countryside who is unable to read books and I can figure this out, so I believe the only reason why others claim to not know this is because they are more concerned with building online brands where they engage in slapfights and callouts for entertainment and have no commitment to any ideology.
(DIR) Post #69530 by Discourse_Stu@bofa.lol
2018-09-18T02:56:00Z
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@lunchit's extremely frustrating! because liberals mis-use nuance, complexity and ambiguity as defences of the status quo, any invocation of them becomes perceived as liberalism.It's true that so much boils down to symbolism and signalling your group affiliation.Marx was a wonk and a logic nerd!
(DIR) Post #69543 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:56:57Z
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@lunch honestly its deeply disturbing to me just how few actual answers any kind of semblance of "left" has, which ties into the simple solution stuff (as there are none)
(DIR) Post #69544 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:57:03Z
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@Discourse_Stu That's right.
(DIR) Post #69550 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:57:52Z
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@RedCeres It's because a lot of the New Crop of leftists are not in it for any political reason, but because it's where you can "pick up chicks" (LGBT "folx" included!!) and reenact high school.
(DIR) Post #69572 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T02:59:46Z
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@lunch I don't even know if I call myself a leftist anymore
(DIR) Post #69573 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T02:59:57Z
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Oh if you've ever posted a gif of someone eating popcorn in reply to some kind of accusation of serious wrongdoing you're a psycho freak and I do not want to know you.
(DIR) Post #69584 by CJBurger@bofa.lol
2018-09-18T02:59:38Z
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@RedCeres @lunch leftism is coming around on the importance of systemic issues, finally, but we still love ignoring institutional issues and especially the importance of building effective institutions and it bothers me constantly.
(DIR) Post #69585 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:00:53Z
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@CJBurger @RedCeres People love ignoring Class and implying that stressing the importance is "class > everything bro-ism" as though class isnt the single largest determinant of your quality of life. Why are you calling yourself a marxist if you don't believe in this? and if you aren't a marxist we aren't comrades lol
(DIR) Post #69588 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:01:04Z
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@johnrandom Hope you're joking!
(DIR) Post #69603 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:02:14Z
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@lunchpretty sure there was one tweet where someone said you could learn all you needed to about "socialism" from Sesame Street, which haunts me
(DIR) Post #69607 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:02:32Z
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@lunch I'm not Ive lost faith in the whole current
(DIR) Post #69609 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:02:50Z
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@lunch I mean fuck I've lost faith in humanity but idk
(DIR) Post #69610 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:02:56Z
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@lunch @johnrandom Well, what does "Left" even mean? Thats a lot of ideologies.
(DIR) Post #69612 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:03:10Z
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@johnrandom The institutions are irrelevant. Leftism is immutable. Have principles.
(DIR) Post #69615 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:03:20Z
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@RedCeres @lunch it's the whole concept of ideology that I may have issue with
(DIR) Post #69623 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:04:05Z
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@johnrandom @RedCeres it doesn't matter if you believe in ideology, you have it.
(DIR) Post #69635 by sdinma@bofa.lol
2018-09-18T03:05:37Z
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@lunch I dunno if this makes sense, but I feel like the only scenario in which "simple solutions" are viable is one in which society has collapsed and whoever is left has to start from scratch, and maybe that's what some people want? I certainly don't.
(DIR) Post #69636 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:05:57Z
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@lunch @johnrandom The general thread uniting them is a belief in equality and egalitarianism, right?
(DIR) Post #69641 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:06:15Z
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@sdinma I mean, elimination of nuance is a thing that fascists do, so gonna just have to shrug!
(DIR) Post #69645 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:06:30Z
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@RedCeres @johnrandom In simple terms: yes.
(DIR) Post #69650 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:06:53Z
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@RedCeres @lunch I mean sure that's how I would describe leftism in the simplest terms
(DIR) Post #69663 by sad_bitch@soc.ialis.me
2018-09-18T03:08:35Z
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@lunchReading Marx's Letters to Zasulich and his other Russian readers/critics should be enough to disabuse one of this image of Marx as having a schematic, teleological view of history. People love to shave Marx of all his quirks and real insights for easy consumption. As you can imagine, it makes me Mad Online.
(DIR) Post #69673 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:09:11Z
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@sad_bitch MArx Said "Just ask your boss for a raise and vote for the DSA"
(DIR) Post #69674 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:09:12Z
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@lunch @johnrandom difficult to abandon that in terms of the broad principles, but thats a hell of a weak glue.
(DIR) Post #69689 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:10:01Z
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@RedCeres @johnrandom No it isnt, it's pretty simple. It's not an organization, it's principles you set for yourself and hold to be true and work towards creating in the world.
(DIR) Post #69690 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:10:03Z
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@RedCeres @lunch so sure I'm "leftist" in principle and concept but "leftism" as a movement as an social construct is it achieving equality as an outcome is it even pushing towards it?
(DIR) Post #69708 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:11:17Z
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@johnrandom @RedCeres As I said, whatever organization and physical structure exists is irrelevant to whether you are a "leftist" or not. It's about what you believe. If the "movement" as it exists makes you not want to hold those principles anymore then you are not a leftist.
(DIR) Post #69723 by alana@the.giant.horse
2018-09-18T03:12:28Z
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@lunch i hate that attitude so much ): it’s like, “anything that doesn’t directly impact me in this moment is entertainment” 😑
(DIR) Post #69725 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:12:29Z
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@RedCeres @lunch I think so much of what we do is about making us superior about making ourselves better than the rest in our mindsets and I just don't believe that I just don't think I've got some special dispensation of correctness I don't think if given power to decide how the world would be I'd make anything better I think I'd be limited by my weakness by my biases by my incompetence
(DIR) Post #69727 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:12:51Z
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@lunch @johnrandom I believe the foundational part of what the left is supposed to be, but the important stuff is how you get there. What kind of unity is there in that area in the left? All seems very distinct and contradictory.
(DIR) Post #69728 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:12:52Z
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@alana Absolutely psychotic. People got hurt! People got hurt so you could have a fun night online!
(DIR) Post #69735 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:14:11Z
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@RedCeres @johnrandom The lack of unity is about differences in praxis, not differences in aim. Communists and Anarchists want the same thing, but have different means of achieving it for example. It's not contradictory if you examine it for a moment.
(DIR) Post #69737 by Adoxographer@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:14:05Z
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@RedCeres @lunch @johnrandom (Doesn't "Left" mean "anti-capitalism"?)
(DIR) Post #69738 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:14:31Z
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@Adoxographer @RedCeres @johnrandom Left is anti-hierarchy. Capitalism creates hierarchy and so it is anti-capitalism.
(DIR) Post #69743 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:14:41Z
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@RedCeres @lunch not to defend the status quo but I think we simplify the insidious logic of the status quo it wasn't dreamed up by an evil cabal it was emplaced by powerful forces of social and economic and enviromental origin it's not like we can just overthrow it and be free of those fundamental undercurrents we are in some way damned by the human situation
(DIR) Post #69749 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:14:53Z
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@johnrandom @RedCeres @lunch the movement is perhaps better characterised as movements, as it is heterogeneous! the purpose of theory and specific ideology is to hash out the success of various movements, real or hypothetical. if you're engaging in any of that sort thought, whether you're rejecting existing movements or not, you have an ideology!
(DIR) Post #69752 by sad_bitch@soc.ialis.me
2018-09-18T03:15:17Z
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@lunchAs Marx said, "Focus entirely on electoral races in NYC and totally abandon an internationalist and antagonistic perspective for the sake of 'popularizing socialism'. Read Jacobin and pretend that reformism is feasible in an era of violent climate change."
(DIR) Post #69753 by Adoxographer@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:15:20Z
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@lunch @RedCeres @johnrandom I think there's plenty of room for hierarchy in most Left formulations, but I'm no expert. I know I'm not actually anti-hierarchy--I'm anti-kyriarchy, though, for sure.
(DIR) Post #69761 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:15:39Z
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@sad_bitch Waver in your commitment to Leftism because people are mean to each other online.
(DIR) Post #69765 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:16:02Z
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@Adoxographer @RedCeres @johnrandom There is no room for hierarchy in the end-state of what any leftist dreams to achieve so i'm not sure what you are talking about.
(DIR) Post #69774 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:16:35Z
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@Adoxographer @RedCeres @johnrandom "anti kyriarchy" is redundant.
(DIR) Post #69779 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:16:51Z
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@RedCeres @lunch I think that's why I turn to faith to a belief that humanity needs the grace of divinity to be redeemed.. maybe this is a weakness of my own self honestly I don't recommend it I don't think we'll find the the cure to our social ills in religion far from it. I think I just need it personally to believe that it's not all lost idk I'm venting
(DIR) Post #69784 by sad_bitch@soc.ialis.me
2018-09-18T03:17:16Z
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@lunchWell, Imma be the picky bitch and say that "leftism" is kinda scrap, but the imminent movement of communism has nothing to do with internet cliques yelling at one another.
(DIR) Post #69785 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:17:33Z
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@johnrandom @RedCeres If you're a religious leftist i'm going to unfollow you for my own sanity.
(DIR) Post #69786 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:17:33Z
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@lunch @johnrandom I'm gonna hot take and say anarchists don't really want the same stuff as communists, at least from what I've observed.
(DIR) Post #69787 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:17:45Z
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@sad_bitch That's right :)
(DIR) Post #69789 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:17:59Z
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@RedCeres @johnrandom You've been mislead by your own eyes.
(DIR) Post #69791 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:18:00Z
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@lunch @RedCeres sure do it
(DIR) Post #69796 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:18:08Z
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@johnrandom @RedCeres @lunch and this is what theory and left ideology is about: analysing the status quo, asking how we can change it effectively, and determining what we can build in its place. which are certainly not easy questions!!
(DIR) Post #69800 by Adoxographer@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:18:18Z
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@lunch @RedCeres @johnrandom Do you mean social hierarchy? I think we're talking past each other a little, maybe. (and sorry for butting in--happy to butt out!)
(DIR) Post #69806 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:19:04Z
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@lunch @johnrandom yeah, possible. How would folks like egoists be compatible with marxism leninism?
(DIR) Post #69807 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:19:09Z
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@Adoxographer @RedCeres @johnrandom Is there a meaningful difference
(DIR) Post #69818 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:19:58Z
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@RedCeres @johnrandom Egoism isn't a Left ideology.
(DIR) Post #69832 by Adoxographer@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:20:39Z
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@lunch @RedCeres @johnrandom Sure--hierarchy is often a pragmatic good. On a work team, things go better when people with greater experience and skill can lead, for example. No?
(DIR) Post #69837 by Adoxographer@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:21:14Z
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@lunch @RedCeres @johnrandom Is it? Aren't plenty of people in favor of systems of oppression?
(DIR) Post #69851 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:22:17Z
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@lunch @johnrandom Individualistic anarchism isn't considered left? Theres shitloads of "lefty" anarchists into Stirner though.
(DIR) Post #69852 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:22:25Z
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@Adoxographer @RedCeres @johnrandom Yes, and it is our job to dismantle those systems anyways. If you're dismantling hierarchy and eliminating exploitation, "kyriarchy" no longer matters. It is powerless even if people hold beliefs in favour of it.
(DIR) Post #69853 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:22:24Z
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@mardiroos @RedCeres @lunch I guess my deep darkness is that I don't see us as architects I doubt our capability to control our own structure on a conscious level and I fear our unconscious designs will always be oppressive and disastrous
(DIR) Post #69857 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:22:43Z
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@Adoxographer @RedCeres @johnrandom That's an entirely different issue lol
(DIR) Post #69861 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:22:54Z
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@mardiroos @RedCeres @lunch you shouldn't ask apes to design your political system but that's like the designers we have
(DIR) Post #69862 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:23:01Z
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@RedCeres @johnrandom They lack ideological rigour!
(DIR) Post #69872 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:24:18Z
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@lunch @johnrandom now we get into the meat of the matter. Not all "leftists" are actually leftists. The movement itself needs more rigor so it can at least hope to unify the various strains. We're in a state of malaise in other words.
(DIR) Post #69873 by Adoxographer@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:24:19Z
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@lunch @RedCeres @johnrandom I like that--nice, and thanks for sharing it.
(DIR) Post #69874 by lyliawisteria@enby.club
2018-09-18T03:24:23Z
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@johnrandom @mardiroos @RedCeres @lunch i'm sure that apes have their own politics and don't need to be bothered figuring out human politics.
(DIR) Post #69875 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:24:47Z
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@RedCeres @johnrandom That's right, it doesn't matter what you call yourself.
(DIR) Post #69877 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:24:57Z
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@Adoxographer @RedCeres @johnrandom Always down to converse.
(DIR) Post #69882 by johnrandom@guillotines.masto.host
2018-09-18T03:25:12Z
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@lyliawisteria @mardiroos @RedCeres @lunch honestly I think they'd have great insight
(DIR) Post #69888 by Adoxographer@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:25:35Z
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@lunch @RedCeres @johnrandom Right, that's why I think we were talking past each other.
(DIR) Post #69893 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:25:45Z
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@johnrandom @RedCeres @lunch I am not religious now but I once was. I understand how it helps. Marx said, in a passage often taken out of context, that religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. But religion does not preclude the work that must be done here and now, and it definitely does not replace it imo.
(DIR) Post #69895 by thatcosmonaut@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:26:19Z
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@RedCeres @lunch @johnrandom do actual stirnerists exist??? is this real???
(DIR) Post #69897 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:26:36Z
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@thatcosmonaut @lunch @johnrandom yes and its as bad as you think.
(DIR) Post #69898 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:26:36Z
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@mardiroos @johnrandom @RedCeres That's right sam.
(DIR) Post #69899 by thatcosmonaut@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:27:01Z
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@RedCeres @lunch @johnrandom lmao i thought people just pretended to be into him because its funny
(DIR) Post #69920 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:28:07Z
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@thatcosmonaut @lunch @johnrandom I mean, I'm incredibly skeptical of anarchism as a whole, I don't think it can withstand capitalism. So in some ways I'm part of the problem, but the attitude of anarchists really doesn't help.
(DIR) Post #69924 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:28:30Z
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@RedCeres @thatcosmonaut @johnrandom Anarchism, like i said, is just one theory on how to best achieve the end goal of Left politics.
(DIR) Post #69948 by secondary_world@bofa.lol
2018-09-18T03:30:22Z
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@lunch @RedCeres @thatcosmonaut @johnrandom There is a significant trend in anarchism to follow the lines of liberal individualist thought, and through that to come liberal individualist conclusionsNot all anarchism, mind you, but certainly some of the most popular strains.There cannot be any sort of left unity with liberal individualists; their entire ideological underpinning is anathema to a class-based understanding of history and sociology
(DIR) Post #69957 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:30:47Z
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@secondary_world @RedCeres @thatcosmonaut @johnrandom That's right.
(DIR) Post #69966 by kel@soc.ialis.me
2018-09-18T03:31:10Z
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@lunch @RedCeres @johnrandom praxes are just "aim"s within the plane of immanence
(DIR) Post #69978 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:32:15Z
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@kel @RedCeres @johnrandom "praxis" is the means "at youre finger types"
(DIR) Post #70031 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:36:08Z
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@johnrandom @RedCeres @lunch oof. that's a heavy thought to hold, friend. but always is a very long time.look at history: the things which were once seen as permanent have changed utterly. Marx, again: all that is solid melts into air. there have been societies with radically different organisations of power, and gender, and property. it's hard to look at the way the world is and not see it as inevitable but it is true, and worth the effort, I truly believe.
(DIR) Post #70100 by Goblin_2@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:39:50Z
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@lunch @secondary_world @RedCeres @thatcosmonaut @johnrandom sorry to pile onto a thread on the last minute, but I feel like anarchism is best seen in practice in coops and syndicates. I'm for anything that makes you question the notion of bosses and hierarchical society in general. I def dislike the "anarchism means i get to wear track suits n not actually agree to consensus, just that my opinion doesn't count as much as it should" line of thinking a lot of 'anarchists' act on.
(DIR) Post #70164 by secondary_world@bofa.lol
2018-09-18T03:38:41Z
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@mardiroos @johnrandom @RedCeres @lunch Honestly, the real epistemological fear that I have is similar; that we are not, in fact, individuals or possessing of any real form of consciousness, but rather a series of processes unable to examine themselves which, as a result, are given the illusion of consciousness in the spaces betweenOn a simple logical level, the nexus of choice is simply impossible to locate, and appears more and more illusory when you seek it
(DIR) Post #70165 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:41:39Z
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@secondary_world @johnrandom @RedCeres @lunch I guess my question would be what is the difference between the illusion of consciousness and consciousness?or better yet: how would I act differently were choice an illusion?
(DIR) Post #70166 by secondary_world@bofa.lol
2018-09-18T03:44:01Z
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@mardiroos @johnrandom @RedCeres @lunch And that's fair - honestly, it seems to me that a purely mechanistic understanding of human cognition may actually be freeing, in a sort of ego-death senseIt's one of those intractable solutions, but I have been trying to find a logic trick to escape the necessary conclusion on and off for years now
(DIR) Post #70167 by thatcosmonaut@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:45:02Z
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@secondary_world @mardiroos the trick is to abandon rationality (i.e. recognize its limitations) and embrace the absurd
(DIR) Post #70253 by secondary_world@bofa.lol
2018-09-18T03:41:14Z
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@Goblin_2 @lunch @RedCeres @thatcosmonaut @johnrandom Seriously collectivist anarchists are people with whom communists should be seeking solidarityThe lifestyle anarchists and radlibs masquerading as anarchists are treacherous mis-directions of anticapitalist thought cooked up by the hegemonic powers-that-be
(DIR) Post #70254 by RedCeres@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:50:04Z
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@secondary_world @Goblin_2 @lunch @thatcosmonaut @johnrandom Something tells me most anarchists aren't interested in solidarity with communists unless its the nebulous "Ancom" which is iirc not marxist.
(DIR) Post #70255 by lunch@knzk.me
2018-09-18T03:50:29Z
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@RedCeres @secondary_world @Goblin_2 @thatcosmonaut @johnrandom Maybe.