Post 646477 by rotor@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by rotor@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #644471 by thatcosmonaut@monads.online
2018-10-19T21:11:11.963195Z
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still thinking about that petersonite reddit post
(DIR) Post #644472 by thatcosmonaut@monads.online
2018-10-19T21:16:16.671849Z
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i know this is nowhere near an original take but the alienation and confusion young men feel in our culture is real and makes them ripe to be swayed by narratives of reactionary grifters like peterson and the worst part of it is when women react negatively to the petersonisms it just reinforces his narrative that women are these beings of chaos, it is truly awful
(DIR) Post #644473 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:18:53Z
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@thatcosmonaut yeah I think it's a very hard alienation to address, and I think we have a responsibility to not write them all off. it's on us, I think, the men, to work through that alienation.
(DIR) Post #644593 by thatcosmonaut@monads.online
2018-10-19T21:21:08.133594Z
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@mardiroos yes i've been thinking a lot about how we can provide a narrative that acknowledges the real pain these people feel and provides an explanation that isn't "cultural marxists want you to have no gf" and gives them a path to working through it
(DIR) Post #644594 by thatcosmonaut@monads.online
2018-10-19T21:24:43.078230Z
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@mardiroos it's like here it is, we have a widespread cultural acknowledgment of a shared anxiety that young men have which is directly related to the production of patriarchy, are we really gonna let the right wing snatch this opportunity from us
(DIR) Post #644595 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:25:07Z
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@thatcosmonaut yeah. I've heard patriarchy described as a system of redistributing trauma, and so even the mildest undoing of patriarchy is going to result in men dealing with societal trauma they are simply not equipped for. the answer can't be just to redistribute it back, but it also can't be to ignore this problem.
(DIR) Post #644599 by natehousley@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:25:26Z
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@thatcosmonaut @mardiroos this has been on my mind because it’s a real thing. The way men are socialized tends to leave us emotionally stunted and particularly unable to cope with the way society alienates all of us. It’s a real thing deserving of empathy, but it’s up to men to provide that rather than continuing to burden women with it
(DIR) Post #644662 by natehousley@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:27:32Z
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@thatcosmonaut @mardiroos the thing that bothers me about Male Feminism is it doesn’t grapple with masculinity, it tries to dismiss it altogether. I think that further alienates a lot of other men. Men need a good model for how to be men in a way that’s not toxic
(DIR) Post #644663 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:28:19Z
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@natehousley @thatcosmonaut yeah. I think it goes beyond model, even, we have a responsibility to engage
(DIR) Post #644670 by natehousley@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:28:34Z
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@thatcosmonaut @mardiroos agreed
(DIR) Post #644686 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T21:29:24Z
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@mardiroos @thatcosmonaut this is a neat take.I've been thinking about making some sort of men's support group, like the hippies did, but less naked drumming. Even if it doesn't turn bitter young men into strapping communists, it might at least ground some off, lightning rod style, into not out and out Nazis.
(DIR) Post #644691 by seagazelle@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:28:16Z
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@thatcosmonaut my ex hubs used to literally call me "an agent of chaos" when I did stuff like move his tooth brush or basically anything that left evidence of me existing. Had no idea the "woman as chaos" theme was prevelant elsewhere beyond his tiny mind
(DIR) Post #644693 by Mephistopheles@ennui.industries
2018-10-19T21:29:38Z
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@seagazelle @thatcosmonaut what a who moved my cheese-lookin’ ass
(DIR) Post #644800 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:35:18Z
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@_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah my gf argues that Peterson fills that ecological gap, basically--not quite Nazi, just sorta rejustifies that which has been attacked and pulls men back into patriarchy. we definitely need clearer alternatives.
(DIR) Post #644851 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:35:39Z
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@_ampersand @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut I think the reason that disillusioned young men trend more towards turning into Nazis when in existential doubt has a lot to do with their iconography, military symbolism and burning torches and such. When masculinity feels like it's failing, people who don't feel like there's another way double down on masculinity. And the far right provides that masculinity, at least in a symbolic form.
(DIR) Post #644852 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:37:37Z
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@dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yes. it goes beyond symbolic, even; fascism historically has focused itself around literal access to sex and familial domination.
(DIR) Post #645035 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T21:37:59Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut I think it's more substantive - there's a lot of really manly communist symbols and we can def see that in the "communism is hitting I-beams with hammers" guys. The left's main reaction to men feeling bad about masculinity has been "shut the fuck up others have it worse," which may make individual sense but as a collective move it's a huge misstep. There is real emotional pain, and we're just saying that we won't fix it. Which is nuts, cuz we will.
(DIR) Post #645036 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:42:03Z
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@_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut yes. I think there is an issue with the argument that feminism is great for men too; I would certainly agree with it in the long run, masculinity is deeply harmful! but in the immediate men will have to suddenly bear more pain and emotional work than they're familiar with (that they should be bearing, ofc!) and I think it's worth thinking about how we can make that transition. like, liberation is not quite a zero sum game, but sometimes it's close!
(DIR) Post #645044 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:44:30Z
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@_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut like, if you are benefiting from a system of oppression, removing the system of oppression will make life harder for you! you will, I believe, be able to liver a fuller life, but it's worth thinking about that transition in more depth than "feminism and liberation frees men too!" and to be clear, I think this thinking is the responsibility of other men.
(DIR) Post #645119 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T21:47:56Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut Maybe I'm just soft, but more emotional labor equitable relationships are much more rewarding and worthwhile, and this is really kind of a huge selling point for feminism for men's sake. Though I think dankwraith is right in saying that this needs to be expressed as part of becoming a man. Kimmel has this whole thing about how Western men rely entirely on other juveniles to say when they're men, but juveniles aren't trustworthy authorities on that.
(DIR) Post #645129 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:48:29Z
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@_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut equitable relationships are more rewarding, but they're hard as hell when you don't have experience with them.
(DIR) Post #645154 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:47:40Z
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@_ampersand @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut Do other people have it worse? Yes. But pointing that out is often not helpful, because the most woke opinion is often not the most helpful opinion. You gotta do baby steps. say what you will about the alt-right, but a lot of their success comes from the fact that they are actually trying to explain the tenets of their ideology to potential new recruits, instead of just mocking them for not already understanding it.
(DIR) Post #645155 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:49:47Z
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@dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeaaaah I do think, unfortunately, there is a not insignificant set of people on the left who really are mostly motivated by a sense of moral superiority--which unfortunately overlaps with people who don't want to question their own roles in systems of oppression.
(DIR) Post #645187 by thatcosmonaut@monads.online
2018-10-19T21:46:35.925588Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand yea i guess we have to make the case to young men that taking on the responsibility of emotional work is difficult but necessary and beneficial component of the journey into becoming a man
(DIR) Post #645188 by natehousley@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:50:02Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I’m curious what your experiences have been, because while there are obviously privileges to patriarchy no one ever seemed all that happy with it. It wasn’t a hard sell to me to, at the very least, dismantle the hierarchy within masculinity
(DIR) Post #645189 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:51:17Z
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@natehousley @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I mean, I think there are a lot of people who are, if not happy, content/stable in a position in the patriarchy. dismantling that will make life harder for them.
(DIR) Post #645211 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:52:15Z
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@mardiroos @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I think it really comes down to this: the left shows the traditional male societal role as a burden to be lifted, while the right claims that it is a privilege, an honor, and a right. It's the same sort of brain worm that you see in people who thank their bosses after they've been fired. They think that by being forced to carry this weight, they've somehow been bestowed an honor.
(DIR) Post #645223 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:52:53Z
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@natehousley @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut and yeah, there's a lot of awful effects of masculinity on men! but it is also a shield against other painful realities. realities which leave us more fulfilled after confronting them, I believe, but they can still be difficult to confront!
(DIR) Post #645229 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T21:53:12Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut Yeah this is why we need to be setting up some sort of like, emotional poli ed/boot camp. And it might involve some kind of silly steps and aspects, but saying stuff like "just be better" and "why don't you have empathy" is less than worthless training.Socialism can't be limited to dictionary "workplace democracy." It should be a robust set of principles for a meaningful life in a meaningful world.
(DIR) Post #645238 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:53:36Z
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@mardiroos @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut honestly, virtue signaling is very real, and if only the left had learned that we wouldn't shoot ourselves in the foot so much. just because someone is saying the same things as you doesn't necessarily mean their motivations are as good as their politics.
(DIR) Post #645255 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:54:45Z
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@dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah I think an unfortunate fact of communities in general, and online communities in particular, is that they reward people who signal most effectively more than anything else. this is as true on the left as anywhere else.
(DIR) Post #645263 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T21:55:12Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut mind if I join and give my two cents?
(DIR) Post #645265 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:55:26Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut knees, ofc!
(DIR) Post #645268 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T21:55:26Z
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@mardiroos @natehousley @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut This is a point that white anti-racist organizers have been making for a while. Racism allows you to just bury certain emotional issues, but working through it has rewards.The journey, however, isn't necessarily easy. Maybe I'm nuts but I'm thinking about reaction coordinate diagrams, which can end at lower energy states but still pass through higher ones before that.
(DIR) Post #645289 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T21:51:05Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut Oh this is an infuriating part about the left. If you weren't quoting Gramsci to the doctor who delivered you, you're hopeless and disposable and may as well just fuck right off into the Nazi's arms.The right has a whole ecosystem, and if you look at how they talk internally, they'll say that guys like Peterson and even McInnes aren't "real" alt-right, but were important stepping stones.
(DIR) Post #645290 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:55:36Z
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@_ampersand @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut yeah, exactly. an unfortunate truth is that the left stole social ecosystem is largely built upon signaling. You can say the same thing in different words, and they'll reject it because they don't immediately recognize it.
(DIR) Post #645291 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:56:33Z
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@dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah this is why I don't put much stock in internet leftism past the point of "motivating people to engage in local work".
(DIR) Post #645298 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T21:56:50Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut though I don't use the term "virtue signaling" myself, I feel like a lot of online liberal/leftist spaces put way too much emphasis on language and not enough on action- not that language can't be praxis, but for our current situation, it's just not enough
(DIR) Post #645331 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:58:56Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yes, totally. there can be a real dis-ingenuousness to the discussion around that stuff; "oh, you're saying language doesn't matter??" well, no, but it's not everything. the idea of "meeting someone where they are has been poisoned" a bit by people saying oh we should be as racist as the most racist working class person but like, just fucking talk to people! you don't have to change yourself to communicate effectively!
(DIR) Post #645333 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:59:05Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut this is true, but a counterpoint is what can they do? they can vote and get all shouty and angry but we all know that's not going to change shit on a fundimental level. people saing things is a step in the right direction and one that will shape those who do go onto direct action
(DIR) Post #645365 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:00:47Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut well it's not that discussing "correct language" is not bad, I just feel like it's favored and other more direct forms of politics are ignored But yeah I agree with u
(DIR) Post #645399 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:02:40Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut this shit honestly infuriates me because there is both lack of understanding, wrong-headed thinking, and also real disingenuousness. I am a prison abolitionist, I am firmly anti-police, not pro-reform. does this mean I can't talk to tenants who maybe have less radical understandings of policing and the carceral state? fuck no!
(DIR) Post #645409 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:03:06Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I don't have to immediately say "I won't talk to you if you won't disavow the police" and I also don't have to say "well, this working man loves cops so I love cops too". it's not a dichotomy!
(DIR) Post #645436 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:04:43Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut anyway this is maybe a bit off the original thread, lol. but I think it does apply to engaging with men dealing with the consequences of deconstructing of patriarchy.
(DIR) Post #645448 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T21:57:03Z
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@_ampersand @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut which is a shame, because I wanted to explain these things to say, the average working-class midwestern, you can't just spit straight Theory at them and expect them to understand it! It's not accessible,it's not easily understood if they don't have the same exact experiences as you, and most Americans have been trained to react badly to scary words like "Marxism" anyway
(DIR) Post #645449 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:04:51Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut I like to just hammer in on "workplace democracy." One thing that I think is so counterproductive is, when trying to do public outreach, I'll try to get things down to nuts and bolts language, and I'll get overruled by things like "Why don't we just use Kautsky's language, we all know Kautsky" and what the fuck dude.
(DIR) Post #645450 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:05:07Z
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@_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut lmao
(DIR) Post #645451 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:05:08Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut this was something I saw on Tumblr with parkland where multiple people went like "the parkland kids are CANCELLED because they like cops too much" three weeks after the shooting happened Bad
(DIR) Post #645452 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:05:13Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut what is 'direct forms of politics' ? what doyou want people to do?
(DIR) Post #645461 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:05:32Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut Riot
(DIR) Post #645464 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:05:45Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut cancelling teens for not spontaneously developing radical politics.
(DIR) Post #645467 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:05:48Z
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@mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah exactly, like you can't shit all over someone who wants to join the Army just because they're from a poor rural community, and that seems like the only way for them to actually get a college education. Enter that situation with full "America sucks, fuck the troops" guns-a-blazing, and you'll never get anywhere.
(DIR) Post #645472 by thatcosmonaut@monads.online
2018-10-19T22:05:56.020639Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @mardiroos oh lord that pissed me off, theyre fucking high schoolers sorry they arent reading deleuze like i'm sure you were at the age of 15
(DIR) Post #645478 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:06:24Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut I don't do it too much anymore but for a long time I mostly treated online as a PVP arena for making right wingers feel bad about their approach. The goal isn't to convince them to go left, just to demoralize and demobilize them.Outside that, I've found it really useful as a place for discussion and especially venting, but I don't consider it "real organizing" in the way that my housing or debt work is.
(DIR) Post #645489 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:06:59Z
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@mardiroos @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I've literally never heard of that dude in my life ever. I have read next to zero leftist theory. everything I know is either from experience or because someone was nice enough to explain it to me in a way I could understand.
(DIR) Post #645497 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:07:32Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut and then what? a riot leads to property ddamage and all that, but we all know that it leads to a short outburst of rage and then nothing. here in London in 2011 we had widesread race riots and you know what happened? nothing, it only got worse; look at Ferguson or Baltamore in the US for the same shit
(DIR) Post #645522 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:09:04Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut but you are right. Polticial organizing is hard, espically in state with histories of violence against protesters
(DIR) Post #645524 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:09:03Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut none of us are in the position to act like it's 1917 where we can go grab a mosin and run to the baricades to express our rage. these small, yet impactful, changes in language and discorse geuinely do shape how people think and act in more revolutionary times
(DIR) Post #645533 by benj_red@cybre.space
2018-10-19T22:09:16Z
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@mardiroos @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut the flaw with this take is, life isn't a zero sum game. Deconstructing patriarchy isn't going to create new emotional strife for men -- it's going to unburden women. That strife isn't some immutable quantity fated to persist in the universe.Mens lives will change, but they literally *will* be better. Anyone who says otherwise is just nostalgic for manpain tbh.
(DIR) Post #645542 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:09:21Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut We have sooooo many comrades who used to be soldiers. And man it's weird to me how city leftists have totally huffed Fox News propaganda about how the left is only for cities. Rural areas have many advantages for the left, and frankly a better track record.
(DIR) Post #645548 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:09:57Z
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@dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah. I have conflicted feelings about the Troops because there's this dichotomy where it's either 'Everyone Who Was In The Army Should Be Shot' vs 'You Can Serve While Being A Socialist'. like I don't think you can continue to occupy a country and consider yourself a leftist, but also I think few people are past redemption.
(DIR) Post #645549 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:10:00Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut shit you're right fuck
(DIR) Post #645560 by ponfarr@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:10:49Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut army recruiters are so damn predatory too and they often work hand in hand with school administrators. like you cant blame someone for getting trapped. or for not having any options!
(DIR) Post #645567 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:11:14Z
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@benj_red @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut I mean, it is going to unburden women of an unjust burden by placing that burden back on men, where it should be! Their lives will be better, but it will involve them having to learn things and deal with pain they've avoided thus far!
(DIR) Post #645573 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:11:27Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah I agree tbh. Things are more complicated than they were in 1917. trying to solve things through an open riot right now is like trying to fix a clocktower by throwing rocks at it. You're not just going to magically knock something loose and it'll work again, you gotta get in there and try and repair things while avoiding getting crushed by the gears in the process
(DIR) Post #645603 by rotor@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:13:40Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut lots of people in the service are only there because it was the only way out of whatever shitty situation they were born into and I think crucifying them over choosing to obey orders to go to Iraq vs spending a decade in prison is bullshit.
(DIR) Post #645610 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:14:10Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut A critical disadvantage for the left, psychologically, is actually a hyper-masculine approach to forgiveness. We write off people so fucking easily.The right isn't as good as they act like they are (white men are pretty much the only ones who get a redemption arc, and its usually for things they don't think matter like sexual abuse), but we've let them kind of just take an entire emotional arc as "their turf."
(DIR) Post #645624 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:14:46Z
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@rotor @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut generally I usually am cool with low ranking officers but higher ranking people like generals I get suspicious
(DIR) Post #645625 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:14:51Z
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@rotor @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut nah, I disagree here. If you believe the war is wrong, and you have already signed up, prison is the moral choice. This is a Just Following Orders argument.
(DIR) Post #645640 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:15:25Z
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@rotor @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut There is room for people who regret what they have done, but I don't think you can be a radical and be an active occupier.
(DIR) Post #645650 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:15:51Z
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@mardiroos @rotor @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah whether you regret it or not is also important
(DIR) Post #645668 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:16:42Z
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@rotor @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut like I don't think fucking up makes someone a bad person, or being manipulated makes someone a bad person, or making a hard choice with limited information or understanding. But if you choose your own comfort over facing the consequences of your mistake, therein lies the issue.
(DIR) Post #645678 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:16:56Z
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@dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut social discourse is far mroe complex than then, but it's aslo that the world is just in a different place where the political discorse is chaning in our favour, radicalisation is increasing but also liberal naratives dominate the mainstream. there is no huuge fundimental problem that is forcing people to look to alternatives. we live in a time of social decay, but it hasn't yet decayed enough to force people to act or die
(DIR) Post #645691 by Authoritimmy@jorts.horse
2018-10-19T22:16:44Z
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@ponfarr @dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut my dad was an officer and was in for 10 years. He had a kid and wanted to live in the US, so he got into recruiting. He couldn't stand it and made clear to me growing up not to trust recruiters
(DIR) Post #645703 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:17:36Z
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@ponfarr @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut ya the Army is predatory as fuck. But even that acts as a great stepping stone. The government has shown that it can pay for most of your college tuition without a second thought, and it's been doing that for millions of people for decades. Why do you have to enlist first? Why not do the same thing for everyone? How come we "can't afford" other social programs just like that?
(DIR) Post #645733 by ponfarr@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:18:47Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut i have heard that they dont cover as much of college as they used to which is some shit my god. altho we see how much funding the VHA gets
(DIR) Post #645764 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:13:57Z
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@_ampersand @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut I'm a history major and this is exactly what I want to study, leftisim in rural areas. Because surprisingly there's a fucking lot of it and it is rad. Everyone always forgets that Union loggers used to get in literal gunfights with the US Army in Washington in the late 1800s
(DIR) Post #645765 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:20:03Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut North Dakota is the only state with a public bank! It does bad shit, but it's something! Eugene Debs was from Indiana, the Sewer Socialists were in Wisconsin! The Coal Wars were in West Virginia! Redneck Revolt was founded in Kansas!My biggest tactical fear is that, because the NYPD has such thorough control of NYC, we have no real defense against brownshirt actions other than politely asking the NYPD to do their supposed job.
(DIR) Post #645777 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:21:03Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah I've not found the golden path to revolution, lol. until I do I'm gonna keep building what local community power and hope that helps.
(DIR) Post #645790 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:21:20Z
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@dayglochainsaw @ponfarr @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut This is actually a point that comes up in a lot of financial activism: the right wing already uses modern monetary theory, they just only allow it for the military, and we already have a federal job guarantee, it's just again only for the military. "Just pay for it" isn't unprecedented, just aimed maliciously.
(DIR) Post #645796 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:22:14Z
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@_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @ponfarr @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut yeah I mean I've seen a bunch of right economists basically say MMT is correct but we shouldn't do it, lol.
(DIR) Post #645824 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:22:39Z
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@_ampersand @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut that's another reason why open revolution is a Very Bad Idea btw, the police in this country are generally very right wing, and love overwhelming firepower, and they are everywhere. At the merest hint of a militant leftist movement, we'd get smeared across the continent and then demonized by every mainstream media outlet for years to come.
(DIR) Post #645831 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:23:31Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut golden path? no King, what we are looking for is the Shining Path. building local power is never going to hrt, but to me it's not enough. fundimentally we need a revolutionary part that is willing to mass organise and self arm, and that doesn't exist ad won't exist in a climate of so much liberal discorse
(DIR) Post #645843 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:23:54Z
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@dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut you just described a pot of mainstream reports on antifa
(DIR) Post #645847 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:24:09Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut golden path? no King, what we are looking for is the Shining Path. building local power is never going to hurt, but to me it's not enough. fundimentally we need a revolutionary party that is willing to mass organise and self arm, and that doesn't exist and won't exist in a climate of so much liberal discorse
(DIR) Post #645855 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:24:44Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @ponfarr @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut I mean yeah. Honestly that's more coherent and intelligent than the liberal attempts to acknowledge that money comes form the government but also reflects some extra-governmental ontology. The real argument about MMT/FJG goes back to "Political Aspects of Full Employment." If we use a buffer stock of employment, that does some real damage to capitalism's #1 function, a system of power.
(DIR) Post #645859 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:24:51Z
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@dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut yeah again there's this fucking false dichotomy that disregards that certain kinds of militancy work in some contexts but not in others.
(DIR) Post #645877 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:25:19Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut recently I've been considering learn how to work a gun just to make sure But yeah you're right
(DIR) Post #645894 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:26:04Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I mean, yeah for sure it's not enough, but that local power is what turns into a mass organised militant power, instead of just crumbling before an organised right.
(DIR) Post #645903 by benj_red@cybre.space
2018-10-19T22:26:14Z
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@mardiroos @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut imagine I wipe my hands on your shirt to dry my hands. I do it everyday. Eventually, one day, you convince me to start using a hand towel instead.My life isn't worse for using a hand towel. I swear to the sweet lord baby Jesus, it's actually better for using a hand towel.If/when men have complete access to the mental health services (and are not stigmatized for using them)...
(DIR) Post #645926 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:27:19Z
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@benj_red @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut but you still have to learn to do your own laundry, now.
(DIR) Post #645968 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:27:20Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut The "full military insurrection" guys piss me off because in order for that to work, you uh kind of need the fucking military on your side. 1917 most of the soldiers were down with the red and black, because the Russian military system only controlled the officers politically.And since one of the most common things leftists do is shit all over the troops, we're not going to have them on our side any time soon.
(DIR) Post #645969 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:28:17Z
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@_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut I mean, it's the difference between a voluntary military vs draft. I don't think the troops are going to have a groundswell of radical thinking any time soon.
(DIR) Post #645984 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:28:42Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @CornishRepublicanArmy @mardiroos @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I've been learning martial arts, specifically krav maga, bc I figure that's actually a lot more useful. It teaches you how to face and disarm an opponent who has a gun when you don't, and I can use it at a moment's notice. A lot of it is focused on real life scenarios and practical uses, like if you're attacked from behind or in a confined/crowded space.
(DIR) Post #645992 by Pyretta@sapphos.be
2018-10-19T22:28:55Z
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@mardiroos @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut Yeah the big issue is a lot of the troops are extremely right wing volunteers who do it to be manly, mostly middle class white nazis.
(DIR) Post #646018 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:29:53Z
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@_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut like, large elements of the army and veterans were a radical force in the anti-war movement in the 70s. but that was a very different army. it's been consciously recomposed to actually prevent that specifically.
(DIR) Post #646022 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:29:55Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut learning skills like that is usefull, but one person is not a revoltion, nor is ~500 way too online people learning to shoot
(DIR) Post #646131 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:31:57Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut widepsread, society shifting levels of change are fundimentally history altering events that don't just come about become some dudes decided to learn how to fire the lee Enfield their uncle owns. shit like the Russian revolution, and other post ww1 revolts, came about because of pressure being so much that general society couldn;t handle it. this fed revoltuionary parites and allowed for a vanguard to attempt revolution
(DIR) Post #646132 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:35:31Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yes. but it requires historical circumstances AND people AND action AND preparation. a bunch of randos going off into the mountains does not a revolution make--but sometimes 300 folks going off into the mountains is a piece of a revolution.
(DIR) Post #646152 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:36:29Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut like, lenin and the bolsheviks weren't just sitting around waiting for things to happen right up until february.
(DIR) Post #646160 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:37:01Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut Well, that and our military tech/doctrine has increasingly become about delivering bombs and missiles over long distances, which needs fewer but more highly skilled soldiers (i.e. volunteers). But it's impossible to ignore that angle. Also hard to ignore that we're self-conscious about our preferred Latin America strategy of military coups so we try to make our military hyper loyal.
(DIR) Post #646176 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:37:44Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut and hell some of what they were doing was good old-fashioned local power-building. you can't say All Power To The Soviets if there are no soviets!
(DIR) Post #646183 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:37:53Z
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@mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I will grant you that. must the place of society in the time is what allowed Lenin and the Bolsheviks to organise as they did. we aren't there yet, we might get there after The BIg One:tm: hits capitalismw ithin the next decade but not right now
(DIR) Post #646206 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:38:39Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut remember when those right-wing anti-government dudes took over that one government building in Oregon? They assumed that the rest of the country would rise up in revolution to join them, and when they finally realized the cavalry wasn't coming, there was no way out. The fact that they were white and right-wing is probably the only reason they kept their lives.
(DIR) Post #646208 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:38:43Z
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@mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I will grant you that. must the place of society in the time is what allowed Lenin and the Bolsheviks to organise on such a scale to have a general revolution as they did. we aren't there yet, we might get there after The BIg One:tm: hits capitalism within the next decade but not right now
(DIR) Post #646229 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:39:55Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I don't think we can just wait around til the big one hits! I am often pessimistic about our chances, as leftists and as a species, but I can't see inaction ever being the answer.
(DIR) Post #646262 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:41:51Z
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@mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut then what is 'action' ? what actions specifically would you say we take that will lead to any sort of credible attempt at socialism. foudning some party with seteve and hannah from down the road to talk abtou how cool marx is for 1:30 a week isn't gonna do shit,neither is advertising that to 'the masses'
(DIR) Post #646280 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:42:16Z
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@mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut then what is 'action' ? what actions specifically would you say we take that will lead to any sort of credible attempt at socialism. foudning some party with steve and hannah from down the road to talk abtou how cool marx is for 1:30 a week isn't gonna do shit,neither is advertising that to 'the masses'
(DIR) Post #646325 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:45:19Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I mean I don't give a shit about "the masses", I give a shit about people suffering, and so I try to do work (and I can do more, I know) to, in solidarity, help them and build power. Building unions that are not reactionary is a kind of action. Organising sustainable community work in a way that is not reactionary is another kind of action. Helping people take control of their city, their homes, their workplace,
(DIR) Post #646338 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:46:36Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut and me saying "not reactionary" here is crucial; because reactionaries will, and are, ostensibly offering the same power but with poison and domination wrapped up in it.
(DIR) Post #646348 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:47:26Z
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@mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut it's good work, but to mee it just feels like individualism and trying to fight capitalism as a one man band. you can't change the overall social structure through that, only some sort of largescale overthrow of captialism can fight what you are trying to fight and we're just not in the position to do that
(DIR) Post #646356 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:48:18Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I don't see how organising local power is individualist, honestly. it's not a revolution but you can't expect a largescale overthrow of capitalism to just appear without any groundwork.
(DIR) Post #646371 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:49:14Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonautPersonally I think we should make more leftist meme accounts as well to convince the youths
(DIR) Post #646384 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:49:55Z
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@mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut true, but there's no structure to it and there's only so much you as an individual can do. Id sayit's individualist as you as an individual are trying to take this whole burden on alone, thinking your actions are the thing that will transform these groups, as opposed to some sort of structure. I'm not saying you'd be against the structure, you're just doing it without one
(DIR) Post #646395 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:50:23Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut isn't that where this whole conversation started though? people saying a whole lot and not 'doing' fuck all?
(DIR) Post #646412 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:51:37Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yo I should hope I'm not taking the burden on alone! I am working with people, and my actions aren't what's transformative, really, I'm just trying to help people form structures where they are capable of using power collectively for each other
(DIR) Post #646452 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:53:55Z
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@mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut it's an ampicable goal with good intentions, but capitalism is an all consuming force that can't be fought against in such a small scale way. I understand that you're using that as a ground level but there's no sort of social pressure to drive it to 'the next level' if you see what I mean. I'd say keep at it but it's not the 'action' that will do anything int he grand scheme
(DIR) Post #646453 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:54:01Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut This is actually serious. Memes and jokes are very influential with a lot of younger kids who haven't grown up without the internet
(DIR) Post #646469 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:54:46Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut as a kid who hasn't grown up without the internet I can confirm that this is extremely true
(DIR) Post #646470 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:54:48Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut it's true, but this goes back to how the transformation of the social discorse is a good thing and more impactful than just words, it will shape those to come who live in more revolutionary times
(DIR) Post #646477 by rotor@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T22:55:00Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut well yeah obvy I am not talking about career military people, these people are far more directly responsible
(DIR) Post #646493 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T22:56:00Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut Krang is goofy but his piece on vice about "Owning People Online" was pretty fun.
(DIR) Post #646525 by kew@knzk.me
2018-10-19T22:58:38Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut it's individualist sure, and anarchist in nature. But I think it's a perfectly fine reaction to the status quo. Waiting until The Big One comes and hits capital isn't an option when people are dying simply for being poor. Helping everyone in whatever fashion we can sans capital, even if not revolutionary in nature, is vital to preserving our humanity
(DIR) Post #646555 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T23:00:12Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut Yeah if we don't have a deep bench of local action groups, from tenant organizations to strike banks to just any old mutual aid, those who "live in more revolutionary times" will not have the necessary structure and support to do anything sustained and will fold super fast. Building parallel power is 100% necessary.
(DIR) Post #646581 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:00:08Z
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@kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I respect what you're trying to do and say here but I fundimentally disagree. oonly largescale parties, organised with the sole intent of totally revoltuionary restructure, can be enough to do anything
(DIR) Post #646582 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:02:11Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I mean I wouldn't consider myself an anarchist, lol. Some of the best tenant organisers I know are MLs. How do you think a largescale party comes about, if not by participating in the lives of people?
(DIR) Post #646586 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:00:02Z
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@kew @mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut do what you can, where are you are, with what you have. simple as that.
(DIR) Post #646587 by Pepsi@radical.town
2018-10-19T23:00:37Z
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@dayglochainsaw#hellthread@kew @mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut
(DIR) Post #646588 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:02:30Z
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@Pepsi lmfao
(DIR) Post #646646 by kew@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:05:21Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @dayglochainsaw @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut also let me clarify: I'm a post left anarchist. I don't think we're magically going to jump from capitalism to an individualist utopia; I'm not sure we'll ever get there
(DIR) Post #646671 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:03:40Z
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@dayglochainsaw @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut 'simple' is the problem here. capital is an all consuming force that dominates every aspect of society. you can't just do some small action and think that will be enough to help. fundimental overhall the smahes the entire system is the only way to do anything. look at how socialdemocracy is being undone in the UK since 1980, even something as establishment as that is being undone let alone some small'fight' by a few
(DIR) Post #646672 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T23:05:30Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut I kinda feel like the increasing failings of the UK state are the exact opposite: evidence of the intrinsic vulnerability of building a centralized party that goes straight for state power without diffuse parallel institutions.
(DIR) Post #646673 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:06:09Z
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@_ampersand @CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut I mean, that's social democracy, basically. reforms conceded by the state to undermine mass organising
(DIR) Post #646723 by erosdiscordia@radical.town
2018-10-19T23:07:17Z
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@_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut I really agree with this. Sadistic feelings against men might be understandable given the pain a lot of non-men carry, but it's short sighted and dangerous for a lot of reasons. Tacitly endorsing cruelty against an oppressor has a way of making you resemble them after a while. It's no revolution.
(DIR) Post #646724 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:08:43Z
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@erosdiscordia @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut I think it's an understandable reaction and merits an empathetic response. but I don't think cruelty is ever really liberatory
(DIR) Post #646730 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T23:09:01Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut Yep. And that seems to be the normal course for centralized one-party leftist movements. 1917 isn't an example because there were Soviets and a dozen leftist parties, 1950 reflects a state that shattered from non-communist action, 1959 only happened with significant USSR assistance, etc.
(DIR) Post #646756 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:07:13Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy. You ever tried to plan a whole society from scratch? I guarantee it will almost immediately go off the rails. You can't table flip and start a new game. Incremental progress is the only way anything ever happens in history, and any seemingly sudden event has years of incremental progress behind it.
(DIR) Post #646757 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:08:48Z
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@dayglochainsaw @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I fundimentally disagree. you can't plan society fromt he ground up, that much is true. but you can put people in place who attempt to comabt thisngs as they come at them and people who you know to be revolutionary taking those decisions. incirmental reform is one that allows capital to exist and you can never beat capital so long as you allow it to exist
(DIR) Post #646758 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:10:41Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I don't think I really disagree with a lot of what you're saying. but I'm really unsure as to what course of action you're proposing in the immediate sense, aside from just waiting around for the Perfect Moment. no actual existing revolutionary movement waited passively. they prepared and organised and tried different approaches.
(DIR) Post #646768 by rotor@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T23:11:23Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I don't really put Iraq and Afghanistan in the same moral bucket as concentration camps.
(DIR) Post #646778 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T23:12:28Z
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@mardiroos @erosdiscordia @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut Cruelty, like many things, cuts both ways. Being cruel to others doesn't merely hurt them, it debases and degrades yourself.And importantly, we're not interested in "same shit different boss." We're interested in breaking the whole damn game.This isn't to say "no edge," but we do need to not just sacrifice our own core values for a momentary own or whatever.
(DIR) Post #646852 by erosdiscordia@radical.town
2018-10-19T23:17:50Z
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@mardiroos @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @thatcosmonaut I think cruelty can be as dangerous and addictive as heroin. No matter how much pain a person is in, cruelty is the reddest of flags.
(DIR) Post #646856 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:18:44Z
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@rotor @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I don't think they are the same thing, but a violent racist occupation is deeply and fundamentally evil, even if it's not directly equivalent to a death camp.
(DIR) Post #646887 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:13:36Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut capital's always going to exist dog. You can't get rid of it. As long as any concept of ownership exists, and any resource has any amount of value to anyone, you got yourself the ability to amass capital. It's not a thing you can "beat". It'll always be possible. The best you can do is keep people from trying by offering them a better option.
(DIR) Post #646888 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:14:29Z
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@dayglochainsaw @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I mean this as no offence, btu that's a fundimentally liberal take that disocunts all of scientific Marxism which points out that capital is fundimentally flawed and cannot exist for all time
(DIR) Post #646889 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:20:47Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut again I've literally read zero theory but"hey if I give you some of my cheese can I have some of your firewood.""Sure.""Okay cool thanks."Transaction is as deep and obvious a solution as murder. You can reduce it to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, but it'll never be absent in a society entirely.
(DIR) Post #646890 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:22:00Z
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@dayglochainsaw @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut barter is distinct from capital, to be clear. Transaction or exchange is not capital. Marx (and many of his successors) have pretty good analysis of this.
(DIR) Post #646912 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:23:19Z
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@dayglochainsaw @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut there are arguments to be made that capital is an inevitable successor to barter, (and actually Marx kinda goes in on this one too) but something Marx himself failed to take into account were the many societies that did not operate with currency or markets.
(DIR) Post #646931 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:24:07Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut yeah, Marx kinda goes down a fundimentalist view of history in this. and one that is kinda informed only by western historical progress but hey the guy cant always be right
(DIR) Post #646940 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:24:44Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut my dude was wrong a bunch lol but he was pretty spot on in some key stuff.
(DIR) Post #646958 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:25:50Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut the sctructure of captialism in it's industrial form and all that sorta shit is where he shines, but imo looking at his takes on stages of history is kinda ehhhh
(DIR) Post #646960 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:10:56Z
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@_ampersand @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut this is looking at the context of how the USSR established itself and then spread it's influence through passive and active means. Marxism leninism came to dominate that era of leftism in terms of 'real action' and thus it's laws are the most previlant, thisdoesn't mean alternative organisation that is still centralised never was theorised to combat such flaws
(DIR) Post #646961 by kew@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:14:11Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @_ampersand @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut one more thought before I have to go back to work:I think the antidote to the status quo, and how we can take action, is really as simple as providing alternative structures to capital. It's omniscient, sure, but there ARE communally run farms, non profits, etc. Making sure these thrive and are helping people is revolutionary in and of itself.
(DIR) Post #646962 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:17:01Z
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@kew @CornishRepublicanArmy @_ampersand @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut my thoughts exactly. Any true movement which values the will of the people will merely present an alternate option, and trust them to choose it. And it can happen on any scale, bit by bit. As unsatisfying as it is, nothing ever happens in a single great, sweeping gesture. The wheel of time grinds slow and fine.
(DIR) Post #646963 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:18:44Z
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@dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut providing an 'otion for the people' top choose is a fundimentally liberal consept based on the will of the individual and the myth of bourgeoise democracy. people are consumed by cqapital, it shapes how and what they think. there is no fair playing field to provide an alternative. we must take our alternative and force it uppon them
(DIR) Post #646964 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:24:02Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @_ampersand @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut Nah. I'm. I'm gonna let them pick. "Forcing our alternative upon them" feels like. Not a great move.
(DIR) Post #646965 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:26:27Z
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@dayglochainsaw @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut I think Cornish makes a good point actually, "choosing" is not something that occurs in a vacuum. people with power will not just let it go. they will preemptively skew the field of options. you can't just sit on the side and say I am presenting an alternative, you have to fight for that alternative.
(DIR) Post #646983 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:22:16Z
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@dayglochainsaw @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut thgis is literally a liberal argument too, capitalism nor exchange isn;t fundimental to humanity or to social organisation either. I'd recomend reading theory and trying to look at how the extremely capitalist social discourse yo've been exposed to has shaped how you think
(DIR) Post #646984 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:26:21Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut ok what theory then theres kind of like. A Lot.
(DIR) Post #646985 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:28:11Z
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@dayglochainsaw @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut well, Capital is a Tome but honestly there are some good lecture series on Capital that are well worth checking out. I would have to think a bit more to pull together a list of basic starting theory stuff if you'd like!
(DIR) Post #646993 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-19T23:28:53Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut This is so like not on the main topic so if you want untag just ask, but I love Polanyi's intervention that "markets" are common, but only very rarely is the "market" treated as an independent part of society. Markets are creations of the society that uses said market, and so reflect the values of the culture. The fiction that the market is non-cultural is one of capitalism's more inane lies.
(DIR) Post #647000 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:29:33Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut Ca[ital is a tombe but Marx wote it to be understood by the layman. its honestly not as hard a work as you might think looking at it's sheer volume
(DIR) Post #647010 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:30:17Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut it's not as bad as it's made out to be I think! but it's definitely long. and it starts really slow, lol.
(DIR) Post #647028 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:31:36Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut listen, Cheif, it;s SUPER fucking important you know about how much fabric goes into a waistcoat ok?
(DIR) Post #647033 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:32:08Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy lmfao. one man one coat. thats marxism babey.
(DIR) Post #647046 by erosdiscordia@radical.town
2018-10-19T23:31:18Z
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@_ampersandI like this distinction. I think the separation of things (the market being non-cultural, science vs. faith, psychological atomization, all the binaries of gender and race) is one of the core problems, not just "capital" in and of itself. Attacking capital won't automatically fix the other problems. It needs a holistic approach. @mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut
(DIR) Post #647047 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:33:19Z
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@erosdiscordia @_ampersand @dayglochainsaw @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut I mean, I'd say you can't attack capital without attacking the other problems. they prop each other up and support each other. capital uses gender and race and culture.
(DIR) Post #647050 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:33:40Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut this is sort of a words vs actions thing I think. Like of course no one's just gonna pick your side the first time you tell them about it. But you can fight to branch out, and build a better society, and eventually people will defect to it of their own free will. You gotta do the thing first to show that it works. Results don't lie.
(DIR) Post #647071 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:36:11Z
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@dayglochainsaw @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut yeah, but the fighting's gotta happen at some point! and defection implies a degree of freedom. you can't just build a commune and wait for everyone to show up, because the world in which people live is unfree. your commune may be crushed, or if people try to join it they may be prevented, or the knowledge of the commune may be suppressed.
(DIR) Post #647141 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:38:33Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @kew @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut people will always discount individual communes, and rightfully so. you have toi take soceity by the balls and impliment your will on it, that's just a fundimental of Marxism from Engles himself (with nicer language)
(DIR) Post #647142 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:41:38Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut I mean, Engels and Marx, as established, aren't perfect or always correct. but yeah it's worth remembering that all revolutions are authoritarian, as all structures do. you cannot oppose power without assuming power. one might hope the power you take has a different form to the power you defeat. but you can't passively expect power to dissipate.
(DIR) Post #647150 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:42:25Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut also folks I think I gotta call it a night, I need to finish some work today lol.
(DIR) Post #647161 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:42:57Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut and this is why vanguards are essntual. to assume the power you have to be trusted with it, and to be trusted withit you need to be the most inulsar revoltuionary group of people who are no doubt as Marxist as they come
(DIR) Post #647176 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:43:57Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut you go work, I am FAR too drunk to keep this pgoing and it shows in allt he typing errors. idk how I kept going this long. but knowing me I will still keep replying for hours to come
(DIR) Post #647195 by rotor@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T23:45:24Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut i agree that the moral thing would be to refuse to go and choose prison instead but i won’t judge someone for choosing to work in the motor pool in Kabul over prison.
(DIR) Post #647247 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:49:53Z
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@rotor @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut If they are not aware of the consequences of their actions I would educate them, and if they are aware, I will judge them for it. "The motor pool in Kabul" is a dismissive way of describing directly participating in and supporting a violent occupation. Even if you are not pulling the trigger or beating the prisoner (which many soldiers) does not make you uncomplicit, or even significantly less complicit.
(DIR) Post #647258 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:50:54Z
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@rotor @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut Also: I don't understand what it means to say X would be the moral thing but I won't judge you for not doing X? You are making a moral judgement here. You are just just not acting on it.
(DIR) Post #647330 by rotor@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T23:47:55Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I pay the taxes that make this war possible. Will you judge me for paying them instead of going to prison?
(DIR) Post #647331 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:57:02Z
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@rotor That is absurd but also not entirely wrong. We all are complicit in this, to varying degrees. We do, in fact, have a moral obligation to do what we can to fight the occupations waged by the country we live in, yes, and measure our own complicity in those occupation. But there are obviously different degrees of complicity here, and it's absurd to just flatten it entirely. Being a poor taxpayer is different from being a literal occupier is different from being a warmongering politician.
(DIR) Post #647381 by erosdiscordia@radical.town
2018-10-19T23:53:43Z
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@dayglochainsaw Yeah, I don't think it'll work to force people. And it goes against the principles that distinguish current progressive movements, which I think are more popular than polls let on. @CornishRepublicanArmy @kew @_ampersand @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut
(DIR) Post #647382 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:58:57Z
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@erosdiscordia @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @thatcosmonaut 'polls' and 'the progressive movement' mean nothing to *communists. by all means, social democracts and whatever do as you wish, but to marxists this isn;t enough. to marxism the only end to this is to take the state by force and force our will upon it. this is the *only* way to end capital
(DIR) Post #647383 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-19T23:59:22Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @erosdiscordia @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut how long has this convo been going on for
(DIR) Post #647390 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-19T23:59:51Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @erosdiscordia @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @mardiroos @thatcosmonaut idk, like 2 hours. it's a good convo imo
(DIR) Post #647408 by _ampersand@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-20T00:00:50Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees Can't be more than like 2.5 hours, which in mastodon time is pretty fuckin long but in socialism meeting time it's like 5 minutes
(DIR) Post #647436 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-20T00:02:35Z
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@rotor thousands of soldiers deserted rather than participate in the invasion and occupation of Iraq. It's not inconceivable.
(DIR) Post #647456 by rotor@mastodon.social
2018-10-20T00:04:05Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut I'm not judging them because I'm not the one facing the choice. It's not like 10 years in military prison is a cool time, nor do I understand their life. Yes, they should refuse immoral orders, but if they don't, I am not in a position where I'm willing to condemn them for it.
(DIR) Post #647506 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-20T00:06:14Z
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@rotor I genuinely don't understand what the meaning of morality or judgement is to you, then. You can state that something is immoral, and don't see that as judgment? Do you think any person can judge any other person who is not in precisely the same circumstances as them?
(DIR) Post #647511 by rotor@mastodon.social
2018-10-20T00:06:51Z
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@mardiroos "That is absurd but also not entirely wrong." exactly. it's a gradient of responsibility. And thats why I said "working in the motor pool" because that's the level of involvement of the vast majority of servicepeople.The gradient starts as Bush & Rumsfeld and down through the Joint Chiefs and to the generals and by the time you get to the enlisted men & women it's taken a steep dive past a point where I'm willing to condemn someone.
(DIR) Post #647629 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-20T00:14:11Z
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@rotor okay, I want to be sure I understand what you're arguing here. Elsewhere you've said that you're not judging them because you're not the one facing the choice. Here you're saying you're not judging them because they're not responsible.
(DIR) Post #647638 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-20T00:14:50Z
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@rotor I want to be clear: I am not judging people for signing up with predatory recruiters, and I am not even harshly judging people who seem to not understand the consequences of their actions or what they're actually participating in. I've been explicit about this. I am judging those who are aware of the brutal violence of the occupation that they are literally participating in, and that then choosing their personal freedom for the next five years over people's lives.
(DIR) Post #647686 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-20T00:19:41Z
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@rotor they are saying, yes, I choose to very literally kill people, or to directly enable killing by transporting those who kill directly to the point of killing, or to directly make it possible for people to give the orders to kill. I choose to, just by my presence, violently occupy a country and oppress a population. I choose this over prison. yeah, I judge this choice.
(DIR) Post #648267 by goodleftyfundies@soc.ialis.me
2018-10-20T00:10:10Z
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@mardiroos @thatcosmonaut where’d you hear patriarchy described that way?That’s extremely my shit
(DIR) Post #648284 by goodleftyfundies@soc.ialis.me
2018-10-20T00:14:46Z
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@Pepsi @dayglochainsaw @kew @mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut Not to at everyone but this is a good discussion and I wanted to thank you all except ppesi
(DIR) Post #648285 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-20T01:08:35Z
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@goodleftyfundies @Pepsi @dayglochainsaw @kew @mardiroos @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut Pepsi may have not done shti in this thread besides a passive agressive toot, but I value him <3
(DIR) Post #648286 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-20T01:09:06Z
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@CornishRepublicanArmy @goodleftyfundies @Pepsi @dayglochainsaw @kew @OhMyGodMyKnees @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut #ThamksPepsi
(DIR) Post #648332 by OhMyGodMyKnees@mastodon.social
2018-10-20T01:12:35Z
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@mardiroos @CornishRepublicanArmy @goodleftyfundies @Pepsi @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut #screwyouoldman
(DIR) Post #648346 by CornishRepublicanArmy@knzk.me
2018-10-20T01:13:47Z
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@OhMyGodMyKnees @mardiroos @goodleftyfundies @Pepsi @dayglochainsaw @kew @_ampersand @thatcosmonaut #IValueDiscourseAndPepsi