Post 622640 by mardiroos@knzk.me
(DIR) More posts by mardiroos@knzk.me
(DIR) Post #622638 by seagazelle@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:04:16Z
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It would be cool if cisdude allies provided insight instead of empathy when nonmen have problems communicating and understanding patriarchal norms/behaviors. Tell me how to hack ur masculinity and save ur "I'm sorry that happened to u, men suck". Sorry not sorry?
(DIR) Post #622639 by seagazelle@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:06:37Z
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Me: this man keeps doing a Thing and I can't figure out what is going on!Performative Man: I'm sorry we suck :( Like sorry but men seem to be willing to explain EVERYTHING *except* their own behavior. Why is that? Lack of reflection? Fear of women figuring you out? This rant fueled by a frustrating argument I just got into in the gym with a muscle bro.
(DIR) Post #622640 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:10:03Z
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@seagazelle think you're spot on with fear of reflection, the "yeah men suck :(" thing I think is very much a way of avoiding taking individual responsibility. being nonspecific but penitent gets you over the guilt without the need to actual evaluate your own behavior/improve
(DIR) Post #622738 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:11:43Z
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@seagazelle tbh it's because men are trained basically from birth to not think about their actions or motivations or really preform introspection in any way. You never have to consider what you did when everything can be made someone else's fault! "I'm sorry men suck :(" is just a slightly reframed way of saying "This is Men's* fault!" (*Every man except for me, because I'm woke and good.)
(DIR) Post #622739 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:13:54Z
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@dayglochainsaw @seagazelle I think "men suck :(" can even include the speaker but still be avoidant, right; it's like saying "oh I'm sorry I suck a bunch" to someone you've failed while not being specific about how you've failed them/are going to make it right.
(DIR) Post #622753 by amphetamine@social.wxcafe.net
2018-10-18T20:14:12Z
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@mardiroos @seagazelle it's tricky though because i feel like there was a lot of cultural effort spent to convince men to stop solutionizing and mansplaining whenever a woman vents about something (there's literally a whole parks and rec episode about it)i really hate when i need someone to apologize and they start with an explanation, so i do appreciate a man *starting* with that at least
(DIR) Post #622814 by dayglochainsaw@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:16:52Z
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@mardiroos @seagazelle ya it's really just like "this is what I think you want to hear so I'm going to say it in hopes that it will resolve the situation quicker"
(DIR) Post #622857 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:18:27Z
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@amphetamine @seagazelle yeah for sure, there's gotta be some context reading there. some situations aren't asking for a "here's my theory of masculinity". and a personal apology is its own thing.
(DIR) Post #622871 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:19:08Z
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@dayglochainsaw @seagazelle yeah. I mean people can even have genuine guilt they're expressing thru "men suck" but if it's not explicit and translatable to action what good is it!
(DIR) Post #622897 by scribblefrog@glitterkitten.co.uk
2018-10-18T20:18:30Z
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@dayglochainsaw @mardiroos @seagazelle 100%, i was having this convo with a friend the other day about something a (surprise) white het guy was doing, which was being like "i get it, i suck, im the worst" in response to valid criticism, which is a completely useless response because like what the fuck do you even do with that
(DIR) Post #622898 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:20:22Z
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@scribblefrog @dayglochainsaw @seagazelle yuppppp. took me a bit to work out personally that "I'm the worst" is extremely manipulative behaviour, even if it's an expression of an emotional reality.
(DIR) Post #622975 by kew@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:20:07Z
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@seagazelle I think, for me at least, it comes from a fear of coming off like you're mansplaining to someone? I don't want to say anything about WHY a bad experience happened with a man because I don't want to feel like I'm excusing their behavior, if that makes any sense. By explanation, I feel like I'm both a.) invalidating a woman's experience because This Is Why Things Are and b.) providing an excuse for a shitty guy
(DIR) Post #622976 by mardiroos@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:23:12Z
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@kew @seagazelle a thought: it's worth distinguishing between describing a subjective experience, ie. being a man, how being a man functions, and making an objective judgement that overrides someone else's subjective experience. it's also worth thinking about how you can explain something without making an excuse for it, which is key to real material analysis (and a good apology!)
(DIR) Post #623120 by kew@knzk.me
2018-10-18T20:29:06Z
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@mardiroos @seagazelle this is really good advice. thank you for sharing this with me ♥️ I'm going to try to structure my speech in the future with this in mind
(DIR) Post #623121 by narrenschiff@guillotines.masto.host
2018-10-18T20:29:04Z
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@mardiroos @dayglochainsaw @seagazelle a lot of cismen have learned to equate "being a good ally" with listening to nonmen explain exactly how and why men suck & getting points for nodding in agreement, instead of doing the cognitive labour of actually figuring it out for ourselves & proactively informing othersit's an attribution error about where change should come from