Post 622084 by MOTT@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by MOTT@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #621333 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-18T18:52:50Z
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While I find truth in this statement I'm not sure many others would.
(DIR) Post #621622 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:13:45Z
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@freemo It is possible to divorce one's knowledge from one's beliefs.
(DIR) Post #621651 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:15:07Z
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@Surasanji I dont see the need to do so here, if anything knowledge of science reinforces ones interest in the metaphysical, at least for me.
(DIR) Post #621659 by cm@chaos.social
2018-10-18T19:15:54Z
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@freemo I'm an atheist myself, but I've come to the conclusion that there's people that need some kind of spirituality and some that don't. So I'd say this quote applies to the former type of persons.
(DIR) Post #621684 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:17:45Z
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@cm I wouldnt say it is a matter of need but rather logic simply being applied to different sets of personal evidece combined with differences in bias. How much is bias and how much is logic depends on the person.
(DIR) Post #621705 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:17:36Z
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@cm @freemo While I personally do not believe in God as defined by human religion, and do not believe such a creator deity exists, I am willing to at least humor the idea that there may be a 'something more' to our existences that we have yet to discover.
(DIR) Post #621706 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:18:41Z
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@Surasanji I've never been a fan of focusing on the word god in any meaningful way.@cm
(DIR) Post #621829 by MOTT@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:25:26Z
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@freemo I entirely agree with this. When you really get into logic and science, it points to our Creator.
(DIR) Post #621907 by cm@chaos.social
2018-10-18T19:30:42Z
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@freemo "need" may be the wrong word, I'm having trouble even finding the right one in my native language. Maybe an example helps? I look at an ecosystem and think "that's nice how everything works together", and that's it for me. But for others, they see a deeper meaning. Not talking about creationist bible-thumpers here, but about people that I agree with on what we see and what the science behind it is.
(DIR) Post #621933 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:32:19Z
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@cm I think i see what you mean , the idea that something extrodinary must be an indication of something beyond randomnly emergent.
(DIR) Post #621953 by cm@chaos.social
2018-10-18T19:34:32Z
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@freemo Yup, something like that. And I'm happy to accept that given the parameters and laws of physics etc, it just emerged that way, and acknowledge the beauty, but that's it for me.
(DIR) Post #621978 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:36:18Z
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@cm I know for me its the whole infinte recursion that gets me. Even if i follow physics back to its most basic elements I still need to ask things like "Why is the speed of light C and not some other value?"
(DIR) Post #622049 by hashtaggrammar@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:27:03Z
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@MOTT @freemo How so?
(DIR) Post #622050 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:40:49Z
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@hashtaggrammar In many ways. If you take physics down to its fundemental constants then its hard to answer "why those numers", moreover if we didnt have exactly the right numbers the universe woudnt work, there would be no planets or orbits or life. Just as an example.@MOTT
(DIR) Post #622084 by MOTT@qoto.org
2018-10-18T19:43:15Z
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@freemo @hashtaggrammar Some people use the unfounded multiverse idea. Life is a major one. Even the numbers don't work out for life coming on its own here.
(DIR) Post #622574 by cm@chaos.social
2018-10-18T19:46:49Z
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@freemo I'm not enough of a physicist to know what I think about that question, but I have discussed the Big Bang with people, that we can't know what was before it. And I'm very interested to know why that is, but then I accept it and stop thinking about the "before".
(DIR) Post #643967 by jonpemby@qoto.org
2018-10-19T20:55:39Z
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@freemo @Surasanji @cm curious what your perspective is re: God (I'm a new member, but I promise I am not trolling just trying to get to know people)
(DIR) Post #644561 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-19T21:23:04Z
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@jonpemby I think god is the last thing people should talk about in religion. It shouldnt be a question of any value that enters anyones mind. As someone once put it, if god is everything then he is unknowable without knowing everything, therefore god would be the last thing you learn in an infinite existance.@Surasanji @cm
(DIR) Post #644674 by jonpemby@qoto.org
2018-10-19T21:28:35Z
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@freemo @Surasanji @cm interesting perspective, but what is the point of religion if not the pursuit of knowledge of the divine?
(DIR) Post #645904 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-19T22:26:38Z
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@jonpemby @freemo @Surasanji @cm "Religion" has 2 possible etymological meanings. #1, to repeat, reread. #2. to rejoin, reunite. Religion is to develop psychic reflexes through process of repetition. Ritual/ceremony and recitation of wisdom teachings is the methodology.Take the ritual of saying "please", "thank you" and "you're welcome". The purpose is to cultivate a reciprocal social attitude of "gratitude and generosity". When wisdom accrues into a body of knowledge, we call it religion.
(DIR) Post #651687 by cm@chaos.social
2018-10-20T07:46:30Z
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@museus @jonpemby @freemo @Surasanji Let me give you my definition of religion: it is an institution of power; it has an external and an internal component, and while the external power has vanished in the western world, the internal still exists: control people by erecting a system of moral values that drives them to permanently have afeeling of guilt.The "wisdom" part can also be derived without resorting to the supernatural/spiritual. The benefit is that this way it can be questioned.
(DIR) Post #651785 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-20T07:59:50Z
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@cm @jonpemby @freemo @Surasanji I respect that you and a lot of others feel that way, but it's incredibly myopic. Instead of basing your understanding of religion as a whole on only the most toxic examples forcibly foisted on society, you could look at the subject in general more widely.You'll find that guilt has almost nothing to do with it for plenty of religions. Also "belief" or the "supernatural" often isn't relevant. "Orthodoxy" is often anathema & instead emphasis is on "orthopraxy".
(DIR) Post #651915 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-10-20T08:15:12Z
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@cm You seem to be confusing religious organizations with religion itself.@museus @jonpemby @Surasanji
(DIR) Post #652382 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-20T09:17:40Z
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@freemo @cm @jonpemby @Surasanji For sake of broader horizons, I encourage perusing the most sacred of all religious texts which exist or have ever existed. fnord!"THE MAGNUM OPIATE OF MALACLYPSE THE YOUNGERPrincipia DiscordiaORHow I Found Goddess And What I Did To Her When I Found HerWherein is Explained Absolutely Everything Worth Knowing About Absolutely Anything"https://principiadiscordia.com/In addition to twiddling the butt plug of religion, it'll also give insight to anon culture.
(DIR) Post #653894 by cm@chaos.social
2018-10-20T11:57:57Z
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@museus @jonpemby @freemo @Surasanji I am certainly biased by my catholic upbringing in a heavily catholic place."Religion in general" is a hard concept to even define, as every person I've talked to that considered themselves religious did so differently.And I cannot think about a single religion I know of that hasn't got an element of the supernatural in it -- but I'm interested to know examples.
(DIR) Post #661759 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-20T20:31:07Z
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@cm @jonpemby @freemo @Surasanji As said, not all religions emphasize "belief" as an important element. In terms of the "supernatural", arguably there is nothing outside nature. Nature can be considered synonymous with the universe (or multiverse if you prefer that theory). If you had talked to people about quanta a few 100yrs back, they'd call you a witch & hung you til dead for promoting the supernatural. Most of these myths/stories are meant as metaphor. Dipshits take it literally.cntd...
(DIR) Post #661791 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-20T20:34:23Z
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@cm @jonpemby @freemo @Surasanji Take British Traditional Wicca for example. That's straight up what people would regard as "supernatural". But BTW doesn't give a shit what people believe or not. If you think it's all just mental masturbation, that doesn't prevent you being a BTW. In fact that's an accepted position. It's called the "psychological model" of magic. Point is to alter consciousness in accordance with will, ostensibly for self development. There're tonnes of religions like that.
(DIR) Post #661946 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-20T20:53:38Z
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@cm @jonpemby @freemo @Surasanji Last thing. One of my favorite philosopher's is Karl Popper. Among other things he's well known for instigating a major update to the scientific method, called "falsification". Here is an essay/lecture he wrote arguing for the objective existence of what in occult terms are called "thought forms" (aka: egregores, godforms, etc). That's to say nothing of the increasing popularity of "panpsychism" (aka: animism) in the physics community.https://tannerlectures.utah.edu/_documents/a-to-z/p/popper80.pdf
(DIR) Post #669832 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-10-21T08:38:24Z
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@museus @cm @jonpemby @freemo I do not believe in a creator god. I feel that if there is a 'something' that created our universe, it very likely doesn't care about us any more than it does any other part of the whole.The technology, or ability to create this universe from the smallest to the largest elements is well beyond us at this point in our existence. It is not a totally unknowable, but it is advanced beyond our current knowledge.We should continue as if there is no creator deity- no judging force.- that dictates to us our days and nights. We should live our lives as if there is no afterlife- because if there is, it certainly doesn't affect us here in the living realm.Our only duty as living, breathing, feeling, thinking beings is to improve our existence as a species. To advance and create and become more than we are.So far, we've done a pretty good job. We're not where we could be- anyone can see that- but we're in a better place than we were at the turn of the 20th century. At least, in my opinion.
(DIR) Post #669974 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-21T08:52:26Z
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@Surasanji @cm @jonpemby @freemo IMO, a creator, be it God or otherwise, as metaphor serves a social/cultural role. But tying to wrap your head around "something from nothing, or other" is just wtaf?!? nonsensical. From a conventional state of awareness it's an epistemic rabbit hole, an inescapable treadmill. Learning to accept the ineffable mystery of existence is the real work, even while the question gives purpose. Morality is wholly separate.
(DIR) Post #670120 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-21T09:08:19Z
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@Surasanji @cm @jonpemby @freemo I honestly feel like the need to have any kind of fixed or certain belief is where people go off the rails. As I say, doubt is custodian of truth. IMO the absurdist position is really the most sound and sane. At least that's my position provisionally until something makes me less certain of that...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism
(DIR) Post #678117 by cm@chaos.social
2018-10-21T18:58:55Z
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@museus @Surasanji @jonpemby @freemo And that brings us back to my original point about people with and without that "need" -- I don't have a problem accepting that existence just exists. To me, it is unknowable, so there's no need for me to dig deeper...
(DIR) Post #678156 by cm@chaos.social
2018-10-21T19:01:35Z
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@museus @Surasanji @jonpemby @freemo That, I think, is the point where organised religion comes into play -- many people have that need to have a certainty, and organised religion provides it.
(DIR) Post #679893 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-21T21:22:16Z
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@cm @Surasanji @jonpemby @freemo I suppose it depends on what constitutes "organised". I think if you have a body of knowledge/wisdom, some people are going to feel more inclined to it, & therefore are more capable to maintain & pass it on. The trouble comes when orthodoxy & particularly authority maintained by violent means, comes into play. Minus the violence (relational aggression notwithstanding), even BTW suffers this. My way or the highway.
(DIR) Post #680043 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-21T21:30:17Z
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@cm @Surasanji @jonpemby @freemo PS. In BTW case orthodoxy is replaced with orthopraxy as mentioned. But the same dynamic of perceived correctness is in play. It does explicitly condone schisms though, which provides a mitigating factor to a degree.
(DIR) Post #680124 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-10-21T21:35:44Z
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@cm @Surasanji @jonpemby @freemo Lastly, what's really the heart of the issue IMO is the intersection of a "just cause" & the violence necessary to achieve it. The exact pattern exists in politics, justice and nearly every other ideology imaginable. Religion is just the rationalists' favorite punching bag, & because it's among the most obvious widespread examples of that pattern. But ignoring the false positives or the larger pattern is myopic.
(DIR) Post #1174181 by jonpemby@qoto.org
2018-11-13T16:12:09Z
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@museus @cm @freemo @Surasanji Sorry for the insanely late response to this, work's been super busy for me.I actually like Karl Popper, too, I consider him a genius. Falsification is an extremely important concept IMHO.
(DIR) Post #1183868 by museus@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-11-13T23:27:20Z
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@jonpemby @cm @freemo @Surasanji I'm a huge fan of all of Popper's work. I keep returning to ponder the 3-worlds, because I feel it explains an awful lot about how individual and collective human psyches operate. Epistemology and semiotics ftw!The basic idea is very ancient, potentially overlapping the vedic paramatman, chaldean hecate as world-soul, more recently the akashic records, emersonian oversoul, the noosphere, jung's collective unconscious, conservation of quantum information, etc.