Post 35354 by wakingrufus@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by wakingrufus@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #34199 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-09-15T16:18:39Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
Pretty much sums up my feelings right now...
(DIR) Post #34986 by Siedge@freespeech.firedragonstudios.com
2018-09-15T16:33:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo I have no stake in this one, but one used the power of the government to force someone to conform to their will, the other one.. is more just people whining about it.
(DIR) Post #34987 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-09-15T17:12:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Siedge Who used the power of the government to make s0omeone conform. We have a baker on the left who wanted to use the power of the government to be free to choose when and how they bake cakes, the other already had the right from the government to choose when and how they kneel...I dont agree with the baker's decision, and I think he is a prejudice twit, but I do think he should have the freedom to not be forced to bake a cake under any circumstances.
(DIR) Post #34988 by wakingrufus@mastodon.social
2018-09-15T17:29:44Z
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@freemo@SiedgeRights only go so far as they don't infringe on other's rights.Refusing services to certain people because of who they are is infringing on _their_ rights. This is why we have identified "protected classes" which it is illegal to do this to, and why we no longer have "whites only" restaurants. We are free to partake or not in patriotic displays. This is free speech, and does not infringe on other's decisions. That's the difference. They are _not_ equivalent.
(DIR) Post #35199 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-09-15T17:42:18Z
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@wakingrufus I don't agree with this logic. Protected classes are arbitrary, everyone should have the same protections for starters. If I want to deny someone my services because I don't like short people I should also be able to deny them services because of their religion as well. While I dont think you should denying people services for either of these reasons personally I find the distinction to be arbitrary and flawed.Again no doubt this baker is a prejudice twit and what he is doing is ethically wrong in my book. But that is distinctly different from what should be law, people should have the freedom to choose their own morality. The consequence should be the court of public opinion, not a legal one in my view.@Siedge
(DIR) Post #35354 by wakingrufus@mastodon.social
2018-09-15T17:52:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo@SiedgeProtected classes are not arbitrary. Which classes are included IS debatable, but they all have to do with who the person IS, something about their identity, not what they do or say.Discrimination based on height or religion are equally wrong, in my book.There are and have been people who think it moral to commit genocide. Your line of thinking leads us to a Mad Max-like hellscape.
(DIR) Post #35708 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-09-15T18:15:53Z
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@wakingrufus I never said that anything someone thinks is moral should be allowed.Only that no one should ever be forced to perform a service for another person. Obviously genocide is an extreme straw man in no way related to my claim.@Siedge
(DIR) Post #35803 by wakingrufus@mastodon.social
2018-09-15T18:21:00Z
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@freemo@SiedgeMy point is that just because someone can morally justify an action, does not mean it should be legal. You may think it is moral to refuse service to women, but in order to have a just society, we have decided that doing so is an illegal act which infringes on the rights of women.Rights are meaningless if others can just deprive you of them with no penalty.
(DIR) Post #35953 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-09-15T18:30:01Z
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@wakingrufus I never made that claim, thus why it is a straw man. I never said that just because someone can morally justify an action that it should be legal. In short your last two responses werent really even related to what I was saying int he first place.@Siedge
(DIR) Post #36102 by wakingrufus@mastodon.social
2018-09-15T18:42:00Z
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@freemo@SiedgeI was responding to "... people should have the freedom to choose their own morality. The consequence should be the court of public opinion, not a legal one in my view."My point, in short, is the law IS the codification of prevailing public opinion into a form that is enforcible.
(DIR) Post #36172 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-09-15T18:49:42Z
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@wakingrufus Yes I know that was the quote you were responding to. but no where in that statement do I suggest that EVERYTHING a person feels is moral should be legal for that person. The point was that law is not about forcing a person to conform to a specific view of morality me and you seem to share. Law is about guaranteeing the freedom of others to their own self autonomy.A person has a right to have a morality I disagree with. So long as that morality does not infringe on the free will of another. If person A refuses to do a service for person B, for **any** reason what so ever that does not in anyway violate the autonomy or free will of person B. However forcing person A to do a service for person B for any reason WOULD violate the autonomy and free will of person A.to your example , committing genocide would mean that the person committing the genocide is violating the free will and autonomy of those they kill. So clearly this would not be allowed under my particular line of thinking.@Siedge
(DIR) Post #36397 by wakingrufus@mastodon.social
2018-09-15T19:05:50Z
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@freemo@Siedge"If person A refuses to do a service for person B, for **any** reason what so ever that does not in anyway violate the autonomy or free will of person B."This is the core of our disagreement. I think this shows that you have never been the target of discrimination, and don't know what it is like. This is basically the entire point of the civil rights movement. I think this is a good spot to leave this discussion.
(DIR) Post #36409 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-09-15T19:07:05Z
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@wakingrufus Did you really just accuse an overweight, native american, fromt he USA who grew up in abject poverty that he has never been the target of discrimination? @Siedge
(DIR) Post #53368 by ceakins@qoto.org
2018-09-16T22:46:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Sounds very Libertarian. ;)