Post 3509146 by wowaname@anime.website
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(DIR) Post #3506899 by jonw@mastodon.technology
2019-01-29T11:47:19Z
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This #Linux systemd drama is a great example of how a small vocal minority can cause a lot of noise about something that almost nobody cares about or will be affected by. I recall the same call to arms when Ubuntu “broke” userland by shipping without direct access to the root account.
(DIR) Post #3506900 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T12:42:12Z
3 likes, 2 repeats
@jonw I think you could say the same about Article 13, or attempts to mandate encryption backdoors that we've seen in the past.Most people don't care. Most people wouldn't be immediately affected by it, and they can't see how it can bite them in the future.Some people know more about the particular field, and are aware of how it could possibly go wrong. They're a minority. Does that mean what they say isn't important?
(DIR) Post #3507010 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T12:45:36Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@jonw Of course, in case of systemd (as in many other cases) there are also mindless fanatics, who are even more vocal.I wish more people were aware of all the nuances of this issue, instead of thoughtlessly repeating "systemd sucks" or "systemd solves all problems".
(DIR) Post #3507148 by wowaname@anime.website
2019-01-29T12:50:26.879114Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@jonw FOSS was founded by vocal minorities. rms is very vocal against proprietary software even though most people don't care one way or the other. that doesnt mean people shouldn't be vocal about things – the small group of people who care are the ones who are (hopefully) moving us forward, whether we know it or not
(DIR) Post #3509145 by jonw@mastodon.technology
2019-01-29T13:50:40Z
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@wowaname I think you’re reading too much into what I posted. I wasn’t disparaging vocal majorities. I was just pointing out that they are exactly that - minorities. The systemd thing is a good example. There are runtime AND compile time options to disable the unwanted behaviour. But, instead, this group has decided to mount an attack against a maintainer than to simply rtfm and configure their software correctly. That’s why they’re the minority. It’s unusual behaviour.
(DIR) Post #3509146 by wowaname@anime.website
2019-01-29T14:02:43.617918Z
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@jonw vocal minorities are minorities because you're right, most people don't care, because they aren't an expert in the area. much like i don't care about many political matters, but i still want my representatives to decide what's best for my city, state, country, and interjurisdictional relationships. much like i don't make a big deal about cars or medicine or whatever else i'm not knowledgeable about. it doesn't mean that i want the minorities to stop being as loud as they are. we need more people who are passionate about their areas of expertise so we can strike more conversation and debate, and hopefully lead ourselves to better outcomes>There are runtime AND compile time options to disable the unwanted behaviour.my complaints against systemd regard its core development and philosophy. there is no way to disable archlinux's integration of systemd/libsystemd/unit files in every package in their repositories (which was partially what prompted me to leave archlinux in favour of more suitable distros), there is no way to anticipate what new bug/RCE the unaudit{ed,able} behemoth will come out for systemd next, there is no way to avoid poettering's blatant disregard for (and ignorance of) the unix/linux ecosystem, there is no way to avoid the fact that poettering's and RHEL's software is convoluted to compile and install from scratch without the help of formally-trained experts.while poettering's software is indeed open-source, it is by no means actually an open ecosystem. he has backdoored himself into linux userland, used social engineering, used sysvinit as a trojan horse to push his software through, and repeatedly proved himself to be incompetent at developing *good, well-designed, and auditable* softwaresystemd and poettering are a good example, but not for the same reason you used it. they're a good example of how unknowledgeable people are indifferent to it because they don't know or care about all the problems it has, but that does not mean the problems suddenly don't exist
(DIR) Post #3509222 by doenietzomoeilijk@mastodon.nl
2019-01-29T14:05:36Z
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@Wolf480pl @jonw systemd solves all problems by sucking! /sOn a more serious note, I'll just leave this here wrt vocal minorities: https://old.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/8plhrp/social_media_gives_a_vocal_minority_too_powerful/ and https://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2902
(DIR) Post #3509621 by stjohn@jank.town
2019-01-29T14:09:50.714410Z
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@Wolf480pl @jonw Systemd is a tricky case because who actually knows enough about init systems to make an informed decision? I sure as hell don't (and this is from someone who occasionally compiles his own kernels). You can't know everything, so at some point you have to take advice -- it's just hard to know whose to take when everyone is so polarized.Personally as long as systemd was invisible to me, I didn't give a damn. Init systems, who cares, right? One reason I decided to switch to a distro without systemd was because it took two extra minutes just to shut down the computer while (what I assume was) systemd was stuck waiting for some random process to end.
(DIR) Post #3509622 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T14:21:39Z
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@stjohn @jonw For me systemd is the opposite of invisible.As a sysadmin, I often have to start or stop services, check if they're running or why they crashed, or write my own service definitions.And my experience with systemd in that regard is much better than with sysvinit.However, when I look at the big picture of what systemd is trying to accomplish, what problems it tries to solve, then I clearly see that it suffers from scope creep.
(DIR) Post #3509655 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T14:22:36Z
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@stjohn @jonw I mean, you don't need to know a lot about init systems to notice that figuring out which DNS server should be used is not the job of an init system, right?
(DIR) Post #3509780 by kelbot@fosstodon.org
2019-01-29T14:26:24Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@Wolf480pl @stjohn @jonw I'm somewhere in the middle. While I personally don't like how systemd is trying to do everything and eschewing the Unix philosophy, but I don't necessarily think it is the devil. I just wish every single major distro hadn't all switched to it.
(DIR) Post #3509909 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T14:30:18Z
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@kelbot @stjohn @jonw Yeah, me too.IMO the most important thing is that we don't all settle with systemd, but move forward... actually no, move in all the different directions, and keep exploring the problem space.
(DIR) Post #3510056 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-29T14:34:23Z
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@Wolf480pl @kelbot @stjohn @jonw out of curiosity, by major distro you mean Debian and...?
(DIR) Post #3510184 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T14:38:59Z
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@Shamar I don't know what exactly @kelbot meant, but the following distros whcih I consider major use systemd:Debian, Ubuntu (and derivatives), Arch, Fedora, RHEL, Centos, SUSE@stjohn @jonw
(DIR) Post #3510221 by stjohn@jank.town
2019-01-29T14:38:13.035232Z
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@Wolf480pl @jonw That's very true. I'm a fan of the Unix philosophy of keeping things simple and modular, and it makes systemd harder and harder to replace when it winds up doing everything. There's not much user choice unless you feel like hopping whole distros.
(DIR) Post #3510222 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T14:40:38Z
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@stjohn @jonw Fortunately, it's still possible to use systemd without systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd, etc.
(DIR) Post #3510239 by kelbot@fosstodon.org
2019-01-29T14:42:06Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @stjohn @jonw It's easier to try and name major distros that don't use systemd. You've got....ummmm...and that's my point. 😃There are some distros that don't use it but i'm not sure I would classify any of them as major.
(DIR) Post #3510369 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T14:46:38Z
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@kelbot @Shamar @stjohn @jonw I'd consider Gentoo major.
(DIR) Post #3510691 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-29T14:57:00Z
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@Wolf480pl @kelbot @stjohn @jonw 🤣 Guys... that's was just a little provocative joke... and you proved me grossly wrong. I thought you mean Ubuntu, Mint and other Debian derivatives.Actually RHEL and Arch have probably enough users to be counted as major. Gentoo? maybe... Centos? SUSE? I don't know...But the fact is that... I wasn't able to think any major Linux distro apart from Debian and Red Hat (and Slackware...).Sorry. I stand corrected.
(DIR) Post #3510785 by RandomDamage@mastodon.technology
2019-01-29T14:59:32Z
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@Wolf480pl @stjohn @jonw systemd does some things better, but in the last year I have had instances where name service or time sync were broken on a system and I tracked them back to systemd.Not to mention the lax security culture.
(DIR) Post #3510873 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-29T15:01:49Z
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@RandomDamage @stjohn @jonw Yeah, I wouldn't trust systemd-anything to touch the network.