Post 3405739 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
(DIR) More posts by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
(DIR) Post #3292395 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-23T15:33:47Z
0 likes, 3 repeats
We need a multi-national, publicly funded research organization akin to CERN/within CERN, whose whole purpose is to develop a state-of-the-art browser that's not Chromium-based. Make #Google follow our lead, rather than us having to follow Google. If the Web could be developed using public money, why not a modern browser? Public funding would remove the Mozilla problem of them having to depend on Google. With the amount of money governments waste annually, we could fund this AND Mozilla.
(DIR) Post #3292471 by jeybe@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-23T15:36:33Z
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@MatejLach Forget FCC, grab that billions and develop a Browser🤣
(DIR) Post #3292874 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-23T15:46:46Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
There could be incentive problems here as well, of course, like governments threatening to withdraw funding in case a certain backdoor isn't included, or if it blocks ads too aggressively and some corporate-funded 'representative' starts receiving pushback from the industry etc, but which is why it would need to:- Be funded by a wider variety of states than the Five/Nine Eyes members.- Developed entirely in the open, each important change reviewed by a committee of experts from the public.
(DIR) Post #3298125 by cbowdon@linuxrocks.online
2019-01-23T19:04:11Z
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@MatejLach But how would you unseat Chrome at this point? Google have the incumbent advantage and the platform advantage. Technical excellence is only part of the story.
(DIR) Post #3298813 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-23T19:31:22Z
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@cbowdon That's definitely going to be a challenge, but #Google did some smart marketing by having ads IRL, like in trains and such, even in smaller countries if the % of connected users was high enough. Since it would be publicly funded, you could also install it on computers in publicly-funded educational institutions. A lot of software spreads by children installing it for their parents. If students are using it at school, they're likely to install it at home.
(DIR) Post #3317319 by cbowdon@linuxrocks.online
2019-01-24T09:00:46Z
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@MatejLach Ooh that last one is a good one. That’s what MS/Apple/Google are trying after all. You wouldn’t necessarily need CERN-like levels of funding to achieve it.
(DIR) Post #3331576 by gdr@aleph.land
2019-01-24T17:49:07Z
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@MatejLach What would be the point? It will not be significantly less evil when it's funded by governments instead of a big corp.
(DIR) Post #3332779 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-24T18:31:33Z
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@gdr https://social.matej-lach.me/@MatejLach/101466662933564002
(DIR) Post #3336169 by TsRoe@fosstodon.org
2019-01-24T20:22:05Z
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@MatejLach But we do have state-of-the-art, non-chromium browser...Whats wrong with firefox :firefox: ?
(DIR) Post #3337159 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-24T20:52:32Z
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@TsRoe Nothing in particular, in fact it is the best existing option, am a fan, but #Mozilla is financially dependent on #Google, forcing them to experiment with alternative revenue streams that sometimes lead to bad decisions, and due to low marketshare they have less say in the standards bodies than I'd like. That's why am either pro publicly funding #Mozilla, or having a new browser altogether be an equalizing player and public funding makes searching for questionable revenue streams moot.
(DIR) Post #3353529 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T09:18:11Z
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@cbowdon @MatejLach but wouldn't you need CERN-like levels of fuding to develop a browser that keeps up with the moving target of shitty WHATWG standards?
(DIR) Post #3353653 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T09:25:44Z
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@MatejLach Of course that might be a solution but it won't happen anytime soon I guess. And again it's waiting for "someone" to fix it. I wonder why the open community doesn't manage to get focussed here and do just that, rather than having fun in fragmentation and re-inventing the wheel of yet another frontend development framework, yet another fediverse server, yet another you-name-it for the mere sake of it.
(DIR) Post #3353902 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T09:38:41Z
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@z428 @MatejLach I don't wait for someone else to fix it. I try myself and see whatever comes from that.Though for my work to go anywhere, I need others to push it. Perhaps in new directions.
(DIR) Post #3355917 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-25T11:21:24Z
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@Wolf480pl That was indeed my thinking as well. @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3357509 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T12:27:33Z
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@MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Also why build a state of the art shit whose shape has beed already defined by #Google instead of building something new and better?Something following a totally different vision?
(DIR) Post #3357737 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-25T12:36:23Z
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@Shamar I think to pull regular users in, we'd have to start with today's web. But once we have sway in the committees, you can begin to redefine what state of the art web should look like. @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3357966 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T12:44:10Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I think we need a #CERN of #Informatics, but it should start from a simple vision and build what it takes to get there from the ground up.I have a vision to propose: all people should be able to read, understand and modify each software they use or feed with their data.Modern Web is not going to survive such vision, so building a browser is wasting money imho.
(DIR) Post #3366181 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T17:35:29Z
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@MatejLach @Shamar @Wolf480pl @cbowdon What I've reasoned is most practical is to create a browser to show that our ideas for "HTML6" are not crazy, and use that to convince people to make it a reality. To create a smoother transition to the next web.It's too hard to create or extend an HTML5 browser.
(DIR) Post #3367432 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T18:22:40Z
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@Shamar@mastodon social It won't work. Just take some time to, say, explain recursion or graph algorithms, image compression or even cryptography math to a totally untrained user. We will never get to a point of end users to read or understand their software. IMHO, trying to do so is a waste of time that could better be spent on building more ethical solutions that just work for this crowd.@MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3367503 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T18:26:46Z
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@z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon My position is that they should be *able* to (perhaps with a little training), but not obligated to.
(DIR) Post #3368299 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T18:57:01Z
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@alcinnz @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Guys, that's just because we are at the hieroglyphs of #Informatics.If it's difficult to explain it's because it's primitive. Let's invent the right alphabet and every kid will be able to learn programming at the primary school.
(DIR) Post #3368829 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T19:12:42Z
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@Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I *think* I know what the right alphabet is, but I don't know how far that takes us...Those early computer scientists knew their stuff!
(DIR) Post #3368838 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T19:08:50Z
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@Shamar We're at a point where some adults have issues understanding higher math, some even have real issues learning to master natural language to understand complex texts or express themselves. And we actually did invent an alphabet to help these folks: Icons. Symbols. Easy interactions. So far this works well. Will we be able to do meaningful programming on that level?@alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3369011 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T19:18:31Z
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@alcinnz I'm not convinced. Just take an arbitrary user and let him, say, try to understand QuickSort, solving Towers Of Hanoi or the TSP. @Shamar @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3369047 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T19:05:50Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@Shamar No. It's not just the alphabet and language. It's the alphabet and language and a formal approach flexible enough to express *all* the science and knowledge of its age. Actual code is difficult to end users but still the most trivial aspect about writing any piece of usable software.@alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3369099 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T19:21:04Z
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@z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon in simpler systems, the meaning of "meaningful programming" might be a lot different than it is in bloated corporate software. just want to get that noted.
(DIR) Post #3369171 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T19:23:32Z
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@z428 @Shamar @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon As I said I don't know how far that takes us. And it'll probably differ for different people.
(DIR) Post #3369590 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T19:37:08Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon We need to be like Moses.We can all see how badly broken is current IT.We can all see how much power we have (which ultimately is much much more we are fooled to think).We call all see how hard corporations try to lock us in, layer over layer.Can we think the promised land?No.Just like ancient scribes couldn't think of a phonetic alphabet.
(DIR) Post #3369616 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T19:37:56Z
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@grainloom Amazon Lambda does so, in example - reduce your boilerplate complexity and focus on small functions that contain actual logic. Better? Not sure.@Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3369656 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T19:39:17Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Btw. notice how the alphabet that supplanted the hieroglyphs was Phoenician alphabet - one that was used by merchants.Now what do merchants use these days to do programming.... spreadsheets.How hard is it to teach a 7yo how to use spreadsheets?
(DIR) Post #3369851 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T19:45:11Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtext_(programming_language)#Coherence
(DIR) Post #3369854 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T19:45:20Z
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@grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon OTOH, imagine this wonderful future, where spreadsheets are the new JS and everything is even slower :blobsurprised:
(DIR) Post #3369887 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T19:45:56Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtext_(programming_language)
(DIR) Post #3369988 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T19:49:16Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Imagine a wonderful future where spreadsheet like #UI is #homoiconic to a strongly typed #Lisp that is based on #Cantor set theory.
(DIR) Post #3370032 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T19:50:18Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Eww.... set theory? ugly!
(DIR) Post #3370186 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T19:43:10Z
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@grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon But we can try new roads.We can experiment.We can teach kids that they can reinvent the future in a different way.Not just with our lessons but with our code and our example.It IS possible.Yes there's a lot of complexity to subdue, we still lack fundamental tools like Egyptians lacked the number zero.But we need #hope to look for them! ;-)
(DIR) Post #3370200 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T19:55:18Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Type theory was invented to address paradox in Cantor set theory that he dismissed with something like "these dudes didn't do their homeworks".What if ultimately he was right? ;-)Would it be the first (or the last) time where people built overcomplicated systems and notation because it was more appealing than the simplest possible solution?
(DIR) Post #3370424 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T20:02:02Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon I haven't been able to find it for a while but there is a loooooooooong list of attempts at visual programming and just about each of them failed and I don't see how this one would be better. Teching programming with examples also has problems that [this](https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9800-how_to_teach_programming_to_your_loved_ones) talk discusses.I for one am quite skeptical about the merits of visual programming... syntax is not that hard to learn and IDEs provide enough visual aid imho.
(DIR) Post #3370499 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T20:04:07Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon The main thing I like about type theory is that all your proofs are constructive. You don't get that in set theory.Also set theory is not good for automatic proof checking.
(DIR) Post #3370531 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T20:05:06Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon If you can only prove that something exists but can't construct it... how is that going to translate into useful computation?
(DIR) Post #3370986 by saper@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:02:48Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I think the current approach to computing is not sustainable. It is akin to Egyptian priests keeping a secret of solstices. We need to find a way to make this knowledge go mainstream.
(DIR) Post #3370989 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:22:43Z
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@grainloom @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Mind to describe a computation you couldn't describe with Cantor's sets?(all I know about type theory, I've learnt from Haskell documentation and a few other casual readings... be patient...)
(DIR) Post #3371465 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:30:17Z
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@grainloom @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon This is what I have in mind: https://mastodon.social/web/statuses/101477076992077093
(DIR) Post #3371466 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:35:24Z
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@grainloom @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon (roughly: actually that's not a specification, but a description typed at the smartphone 🤣 )By constructive sets I mean sets that can only be defined either as subset of other sets or by products of other sets with few base set that are Empty, Truth, Naturals, Functions, Products (aka tuples) and Sets.Note how the Sets set is not an element of itself. 😋
(DIR) Post #3371467 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T20:36:12Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Can I have a set of functions?
(DIR) Post #3371538 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:38:30Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Why not?It would be pretty useless in itself as an un-castable array of (void*) but you could construct it by such definition.
(DIR) Post #3371587 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T20:39:18Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Can I have a set of functions whose return value is a boolean?If so, I just made a set of all sets.
(DIR) Post #3371661 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:42:28Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon You could, but you could not invoke any of such functions (there is no way to cast) so I'm not much sure what you mean... (but I'm eager to understand if you mind explaining)
(DIR) Post #3371682 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T20:43:10Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon I just defined a set of all sets, what more to you need?
(DIR) Post #3371710 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:44:18Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Uhm... yes you said "a set of all sets". But it's just as useful.I'm missing something obvious?
(DIR) Post #3371789 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T20:46:54Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon it contains itself...>Note how the Sets set is not an element of itself.not anymore?
(DIR) Post #3371819 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T19:54:15Z
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@Shamar I think we very often fall victim to oversimplification because we have totally lost sight of how incredibly much specialized we already are - and how extremely basic and "trivial" some of the issues users are struggling with actually are. Google, Apple, ... are successful because they do better here, no matter why they do that.@grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3371820 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:06:49Z
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@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Im 6 hour I teached to 22 yo kids what is defined at http://www.tesio.it/documents/vademecum.txt plus basic networking (IP packets, IP addresses, DHCP, DNS and routing).We did a simulation of packet routing with paper packets and they understood MitM and DNS poisoning by themselves.The teacher proposed to add an our to explain one time pad encryption.1/
(DIR) Post #3371918 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:52:26Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Uhm... the Sets set is a set but since all sets can only be defined in terms of the existing base sets (as either subset or products OR UNIONS, sorry forgot to mention that) and it is a distinct basic set whose element are automatically assigned by the compiler...
(DIR) Post #3371970 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T20:54:17Z
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@grainloom @Shamar @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @cbowdon I think the trick is to strip out the complexity we've added onto programming since the early days of "computer science" theory.And in my design work, for some reason I find it easier to do so via visual programming.
(DIR) Post #3372018 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:12:15Z
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@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon We also talked about robots, automata, cyborgs, and thus about the relation between freedom and autonomy.We talked about surveillance even if I never used this word and about mass conditioning, polarization, hate, market segmentation.We listed the website they knew and noticing that they were all from US, talked about geopolitics.It IS possible.
(DIR) Post #3372019 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:14:07Z
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@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Sorry not "22 yo kids" but "22 ten yo kids".Just to clarify before someone call me an ageist (if such thing exists).
(DIR) Post #3372043 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T20:57:45Z
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@alcinnz @grainloom @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @cbowdon I think text is very visual. 😉 I liked subtexts visual approach because it was somewhat similar to Haskell pattern matching.And it was weird enough to be taken seriously as an innovation attempt.I see my daughter playing with scratch but I'm not sure she was learning to program.
(DIR) Post #3372046 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T20:55:58Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon It's not that you can't describe but that not everything you can describe can be computed. Eg.: existence proofs by contradiction.But afaik you can express the useful parts of set theory in type theory, so why not just go with type theory?
(DIR) Post #3372186 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:03:19Z
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@grainloom @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Uhm... so the problem with set theory is that it's too powerful for a computer?Shouldn't this be something to ask a computer? 🤣 Jokes apart, ultimately you are saying that there's no way to know with set theory if the complier will ever finish the computation?I look at the problem from a different angle: whatever you can do with a typeclass you can do by explicitly passing a tuple of functions for each typeclass as a function arg.
(DIR) Post #3372232 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:05:23Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon fric, my folder with all the cool papers is empty and I can't find the url for it but uuh there is existing research for doing namespaces and stuff like that... uuuh @abs what was that very cool thingy you sent me??
(DIR) Post #3372250 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T21:02:16Z
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@Shamar And now, provide those kids with, say, a batch of hardware and the most simple fully featured implementation of something like e-mail. Do you think they will have a chance to understand what happens, let alone fix it? If that was possible, most programmers apparently are pretty dumb, looking at how much time is spent on fixing ... @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3372251 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-25T21:06:12Z
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@z428 @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon My take on that is that most of the required info is already out there, but I am all for simplifying it. I don't think that would lead to some massive influx of programmers, because some people just have different passions like painting, music and such and some just want to watch TV.There's a pretty large artist community on the Fediverse, don't think they're much interested in the tech side and that's honestly fine.
(DIR) Post #3372305 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:07:52Z
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@MatejLach @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Can they read and write?Programming should be as simple.
(DIR) Post #3372309 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-25T21:07:52Z
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@z428 @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon What is important is that those of us who are technically minded listen to these who create culture and create friendly tools for them to create more of it.
(DIR) Post #3372314 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:08:13Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @z428 @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdonanyways, you don't need to base the language on set theory but you could use set theoretic notions to describe key-value pairs and that can be used to implement namespaces and structsthis is super nice because it'd be a bit like Lua's module system, where modules are really just tables
(DIR) Post #3372358 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-25T21:09:42Z
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@Shamar @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon But why? Is playing an instrument as simple as reading and writing? Is sculpting? I agree that it should be as approachable to these that want to get in. I just don't think the interest is as universal as reading and writing is.
(DIR) Post #3372402 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:11:57Z
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@MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon idk, you need to know a lot of "engineeringy" stuff to get things done with digital art toolsyou need to use logical thinking for setting up complex things in Blender or Kritawe are already forced to learn a large subset of MS Office, why couldn't we learn UNIX(or hopefully Plan 9) instead?
(DIR) Post #3372415 by abs@satania.space
2019-01-25T21:10:54.240449Z
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@grainloom @cbowdon @MatejLach @alcinnz @z428 @Wolf480pl @Shamar The paper about record types?
(DIR) Post #3372416 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:12:45Z
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@abs @Shamar @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @cbowdon @z428 @alcinnz Yup!
(DIR) Post #3372468 by abs@satania.space
2019-01-25T21:13:51.827179Z
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@grainloom @alcinnz @z428 @cbowdon @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @Shamar I think this is it: https://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~mpj/pubs/96-3.pdfNot 100% certain, though.
(DIR) Post #3372469 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:14:54Z
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@abs @Shamar @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @cbowdon @z428 @alcinnz Thanks, that seems to be it! :blobuwu:
(DIR) Post #3372473 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T21:15:03Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @cbowdon I'm just saying in my attempt at the problem, a non-textual language is what I came up with.But I am not sold that we need to move away from text in order to teach laypeople programming. There's more fundamental things to get right.
(DIR) Post #3372481 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-25T21:15:29Z
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@grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Well, am not saying we shouldn't But many people learn a specific tool to achieve a specific tasks. Things like operating systems, programming and such are such open-ended things that unless you're creatively interested in them, there doesn't seem to be as much of a point in doing so.
(DIR) Post #3372491 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:15:46Z
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@MatejLach @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Computers are just convoluted mirrors of our minds.Programming is a fundamental method of personal expression, and the more pervasive computing will be the more obvious this thing will be to everybody."Don't make me think", easy UI that are neither simple nor composable, are the exact opposite of the freedom I want for my daughters.Who is keen to not make you think, what to think for you and decide what you think.Google anybody?
(DIR) Post #3372544 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:18:27Z
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@MatejLach @grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon I think the primary reason why we'd want to teach everyone programming isn't so that they come up with new ways of implementing some part of an operating system, but so that they can make minor adjustments to the software they use on a daily basis, without being dependent on other programmers' willingness to implement such a feature or fix a particular bug.
(DIR) Post #3372549 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:18:40Z
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@MatejLach @grainloom @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon It'd be awesome to get to the point where "fork it if you disagree" is a viable option for everyone.
(DIR) Post #3372578 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:19:29Z
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@MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I kinda agree but learning to use shell scripting for getting basic things done (in a good OS with a good shell language) is not much harder than learning Excel. And if all you learn is basic pipes and how to launch things, that can be used for the same things: launching applications, saving and converting files.You don't need to understand them deeply either.
(DIR) Post #3372601 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T21:20:25Z
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@grainloom @MatejLach @z428 @Shamar @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Converting between different formats covers a lot of what we programmers do anyways!
(DIR) Post #3372642 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:21:49Z
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@MatejLach @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Imagine if we didn't have a phonetic alphabet.Would you be saying: "There are so many things people might desire to say... so many words to learn... and to adapt... that unless you are creatively interested in them, there doesn't seem to be as much of a point in doing so"Guys we are programmer raised with this shit! Thinking that it's needed is fundamental to our psyche.You know, I'm crazy like Hell.That's why I don't care! 🤣
(DIR) Post #3372658 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T21:22:21Z
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@Wolf480pl Yes, but way more than that I would hope people finally got away from that high frequency forking and "my way or the highway" kind of community to some sort of actual corporation again, willing to iron out even personal differences and come to a consensus. But that's possibly another thing.@MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3372671 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T21:22:45Z
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@Wolf480pl Yes, but way more than that I would hope people finally got away from that high frequency forking and "my way or the highway" kind of community to some sort of actual cooperation again, willing to iron out even personal differences and come to a consensus. But that's possibly another thing.@MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3372695 by akkartik@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:22:07Z
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@Shamar That's a huge breakthrough you're asking for. The Romans couldn't just come up with zero and place values by creating a new institution. Breakthroughs come when they come./cc @alcinnz @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3372703 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:24:01Z
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@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @z428 @alcinnz @cbowdon Exactly.This would disrupt programming as a job?No, we still have novelists, journalists and secretaries despite everybody is able to write.Would it disrupt the Silicon Valley.Yes. Yes it would. 😇
(DIR) Post #3372733 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T21:25:42Z
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@Wolf480pl That software they use on a daily basis also includes things such as power management, device drivers or firmware. Where do you draw the line? What about that "bug" of your BIOS always throttling your CPU "too much" when you're off AC?@MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3372736 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:25:43Z
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@z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon Maybe it's just me not looking in the right place, but I don't see too many forks recently...Anyway, IMO it's better for a program to have a coherent vision behind its design, rather than have design-by-committee. And how do we check which vision is better, if not by forking?
(DIR) Post #3372806 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T21:29:43Z
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@z428 @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @cbowdon I'd say wherever they are comfortable drawing the line.We shouldn't be the ones to draw it. But until some of these breakthroughs Shamer's talking about happens at the hardware level, their line almost certainly won't include device drivers.
(DIR) Post #3372809 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:28:43Z
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@akkartik @alcinnz @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Yeah, but they can only occurs if people don't settle on... well... JS.I mean!Why the hell I need to convince people? It's self-evident! 🤣 Times ago Pike wrote about the end of operating system research.Later he went to Google to build Go. That's what depression can do to a man.But I have hope.I don't care if I fail!I just want to learn.But by hacking, I'll inspire others, creating the conditions for such breakthrough.
(DIR) Post #3372892 by a_breakin_glass@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:27:52Z
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@Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon honestly, a BDFL 'vision' model isn't much better than a traditional committee model
(DIR) Post #3372893 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-25T21:33:13Z
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@a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @cbowdon Either approach can go too far.Personally I lean towards a BDFL 'vision' model, but not if they don't listen to some committee and fold that into their vision.
(DIR) Post #3372951 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:36:22Z
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@alcinnz @z428 @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @cbowdon > wherever they are comfortable drawing the line.Also known as #freedom.
(DIR) Post #3372955 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T21:36:34Z
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@alcinnz That's what I mean. And also possibly not network protocols or stuff such as multithreading. It seems strange to want to make solutions to complex problems randomly easy. Why can't ordinary users do the math to build a highrise that doesn't collapse? Because it's complex. As a problem. Not just because we lack better tools.@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3372965 by rain@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:32:33Z
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@MatejLach😂
(DIR) Post #3372975 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:36:03Z
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@alcinnz @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @cbowdon I think it's important to make it clear what we mean by committee.When I say committee, I think one where each person tries to achieve their own goals at all costs, and push the whole design into a direction that's more favorable to them.If you have people honestly cooperate and be open to logical arguments, pointing out each others mistakes and willing to be proven wrong, that's another story.
(DIR) Post #3372982 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:30:30Z
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@z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon The only line I draw is between "it does X in this particular case, let's see if we can make it do Y instead" and "this code is pretty complicated, let's see if we can come up with a better design that simplifies this part and everything that touches it".I don't draw the line between a messaging app and power management code in the kernel.
(DIR) Post #3372990 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:32:42Z
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@a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon It is at least internally consistent.The result of design-by-committee usually ends up being a bunch of mutually incompatible ideas bolted together with duct tape. See: SQL.Or something way more complicated than it needs to. See X.500.
(DIR) Post #3373073 by akkartik@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:36:55Z
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@Shamar Absolutely, I can totally relate to that: http://akkartik.name/aboutYou weren't the one proposing a CERN for browsers, so my response was unfair.But there seems to be room here to try multiple approaches. We shouldn't stay stuck with Google's browser while we try to come up with the right alphabet that will get everyone wielding computers.So let's you and me go chasing the right alphabet, and leave the rest with our good wishes 😀 /cc @alcinnz @z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3373086 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T21:34:13Z
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@a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon What about BOFH? 🤣 Just kidding...The point of what we are saying is that if everyone in the planet was able to hack his operating system (or whatever), you woudn't need BDFL. You woudn't need maintainers or funding. And no corporation could win against free software.
(DIR) Post #3373087 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:41:50Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon This works best if the modifications they make don't mess things up. Eg. if I have a patched version of ls but other software wants to use ls, that might be a problem. So we need good package management tools.
(DIR) Post #3373092 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-25T21:42:01Z
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@Wolf480pl Yes. That happens regularly, even in the programming world done by experts, and it fails almost all the time because people tried to "simplify" an inherently complex thing they just considered too complex because they never managed to fully understand even the problem it tried to solve. See CORBA vs. SOAP. ;)@MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3373155 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:43:39Z
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@grainloom @Shamar @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon I personally don't like it but... Nix?
(DIR) Post #3373254 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T21:47:40Z
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@z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @Shamar @alcinnz @cbowdon I think this is why, when contributing to a FOSS project, or doing ad-hoc modifications to locally-installed versions of programs you use, you usually start with bugfixes, small tweaks, maybe some small features.I think it'd be cool if more people got to that level.And I think it's ok if most people stay at that level.Not everyone needs to be able to refactor things or rewrite them from scratch.
(DIR) Post #3373452 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-25T21:58:34Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon I still haven't been able to try NixOS because the VM kept running out memory but uuuh, it's probably what I want? Or at least close.
(DIR) Post #3373574 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-25T22:04:19.347733Z
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@Wolf480pl @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @Shamar @grainloom what i think we need is a well-defined OS Protocol Suite and a component-oriented system architecture. ideally you'd have a very small and simple core that can host a larger set of components that provide all of the services and functionality that you expect from a modern OS.Genode explores this concept using L4-style IPC. the design is honestly very appealing, but C++ isn't something i'm interested in using.
(DIR) Post #3373588 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T22:04:57Z
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@xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @Shamar @grainloom Something like Hurd but on top of SeL4 maybe?
(DIR) Post #3373712 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-25T22:09:33.890619Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @Shamar @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon something Genode-compatible in Cor an adaptation of Plan 9 to a microkernel architectureHURD isn't very interesting to me tbh
(DIR) Post #3373770 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-25T22:11:05Z
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@xj9 @grainloom @Shamar @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon I read some Hurd's design docs and parts of code some time ago, and came to the conclusion that it is basically an adaptation of Plan9 to a microkernel.
(DIR) Post #3373911 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-25T22:16:27.689603Z
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@Wolf480pl @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @Shamar @grainloom http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/IWP9/2006/lp49_iwp9.pdf
(DIR) Post #3375591 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T23:44:39Z
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@Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon Yeah... I think most people should be content they have been teached to write their name and to modify a shopping list.What do they want?Writing open letters like Émile Zola?By themselves?It's unwise... they would end in trouble because, let's be honest, they are not smart enough!It's better they trust us, the Writing class, to think for them.
(DIR) Post #3375802 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-25T23:53:11Z
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@xj9 @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom I looked for that source code recently but wasn't able to find it anywhere. Jehanne is going to be very similar to what you describe in the long term. Tho microkernel or not, it won't be much relevant on a distributed system as many kernels can coexist: the operating system is the network.
(DIR) Post #3376115 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-26T00:02:26.320979Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon @Wolf480pl i'm into microkernel here for security reasons. you don't need it to participate on the network os, but idk why you'd want to underpin your network system with a less a than secure legacy kernel.
(DIR) Post #3391370 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T11:56:09Z
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@Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon That's a first step, ok?Also, IMO writing a kernel from scratch is already a level comparable to writing a novel, and we don't expect everyone to be able to write a novel.
(DIR) Post #3391923 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T12:22:44Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon We do study them at school though.
(DIR) Post #3392849 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T13:05:50Z
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@grainloom @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Yeah, and if more people could read and understand computer programs, I think it'd help them a lot, too.
(DIR) Post #3392881 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T13:07:49Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Yup. But all that "move the turtle around in Scratch" or whatever stuff is not gonna be enough for that. My sis knows some very VERY basic Lua and she's been complaining to me that they treat them like toddlers on IT class. (imagine if we taught math or biology the same way. it'd be a disaster.)
(DIR) Post #3392946 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T13:12:21Z
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@grainloom @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon And actually masterpieces like Beowulf, Illiad and Odyssey were collectively composed (if not written). Metric and Rhymes were instrumental to their memorization.While we don't expect everyone to be a novelist, many adolescents write poetry, political articles and sometimes even novels (think of Cristopher Paolini).Why shouldn't happen with code?
(DIR) Post #3393513 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T13:40:00Z
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@grainloom Well... most of us specialize in a very narrow field while remaining on a toddlers level in virtually everything else for the rest of our life. 😉@Wolf480pl @Shamar @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3393557 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T13:42:32Z
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@grainloom (That said however, I wonder whether people in IT education, more than in any other business, are likely to treat people with lesser skills with a certain disrespect, but maybe that's pretty individual I guess.)@Wolf480pl @Shamar @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3394250 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T05:52:05Z
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@Shamar Yes..... and *this* is the actual problem: We don't want inclusive and enabling technology that gives a lot of users abilities that are easily accessible. We want them to learn our way (knowing they never will even remotely be able to walk it) rather than using our "superiority" to watch them, listen to them and help them solve problems. That ...@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3394251 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T09:52:52Z
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@z428 @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon Changing master won't make you #free.Not even if the new one is (temporarily) a benevolent class of nerds like us.Talking about #FreeSoftware but assuming that you need a degree to read and modify it has a name: #hypocrisy.1/
(DIR) Post #3394252 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T13:46:47Z
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@Shamar I don't buy that "hypocrisy" thing by the way. We shouldn't forget #freesoftware dates back to days when computers were a thing for a skilled elite anyway and non-free licenses kept people from using their abilities to make software work for them. Concluding from that that free software needs to be usable without the required skills seems odd.@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3394253 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T14:15:20Z
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@z428 @Shamar @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon But you can conclude from that that those without the skill will never benefit from free software being free.
(DIR) Post #3394326 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T14:19:01Z
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@z428 @Wolf480pl @Shamar @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon And that's ok as long as the field is not deeply related to the tech your whole life depends on.
(DIR) Post #3394346 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T14:20:05Z
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@z428 @Wolf480pl @Shamar @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon There is so much crappy low effort software you can shove on people because they don't realize they could write their equivalents in a few dozen lines of shell script.
(DIR) Post #3394515 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T14:28:15Z
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@grainloom @z428 @Shamar @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Yeah.For example, it's good to be able to know enough about electricity to safely replace a light switch in your house. Or that every refrigerator has two ends, a cold one and a hot one. Or how to pour oil into a car engine. Or how the piping in your house works and how to tune the pressure switch for your water pump.
(DIR) Post #3394571 by telent@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T14:30:30Z
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@Wolf480pl @z428 @Shamar @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon when my bike breaks down I can fix it myself if I have the skills, tools and time, or take it to any bike repair shop of my choice if I don't. Point is, returning to the manufacturer is not the only option
(DIR) Post #3394882 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T14:42:51Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon >think of Cristopher PaoliniMany adolescents write scripts, game mods, and sometimes even whole games.They're still a minority.
(DIR) Post #3394993 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T14:47:06Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Right.And we could make that normal.Would be funny to see kids exchanging scripts, video games or programs they wrote by themselves instead of collecting cards that someone else ideate to lock them into an addiction?
(DIR) Post #3395098 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T14:52:46Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Do you see kids exchange poems?
(DIR) Post #3395108 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T14:53:10Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon (memes don't count)
(DIR) Post #3395138 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T14:54:02Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon wasn't Paolini homeschooled and his parents book publishers?the many people writing fanfics might be a better example than one super lucky teen
(DIR) Post #3395278 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T14:59:48Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon The closes thing to poems I saw kids exchange when I was at school was stuff like"Alice and Bob are one familythey live under a bridgeand have an old carnone of them can drivecause all have faulty eyes"Where Alice and Bob are two kids from your class who are not related to each other in any way.Basically, it's a taunt.So, if kids were exchanging scripts, it'd be exploits.
(DIR) Post #3395292 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T15:00:12Z
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@Wolf480pl @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon I used to gift poems to the girls I was crushed with... it didn't work back then (to be nice) so I stopped.But to my wife I wrote a song recently and... let just say it was very appreciated. ;-)Anyway... who knows?
(DIR) Post #3395301 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T15:00:18Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Actually, no, exploits are too sophisticated.It'd be spambots.
(DIR) Post #3395403 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T15:04:00Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Even the way we teach poetry is imperfect, or at least Society of Dead Poets convinced me it is. It's just... dry. Education needs improvements all across the board. Maybe then kids will be glad to put what they learn to practical use.
(DIR) Post #3395440 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T15:05:19Z
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@grainloom @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Yes, it does.But do you have any concrete idea how to improve education?
(DIR) Post #3395511 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T15:08:09Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Nothing super concrete, but I have some general ideas. Project oriented learning is a lot more fun, that much I know from experience. You can't get kids to pay attention if the material is dry. And if they aren't paying attention out of their own volition, that will show in the results.
(DIR) Post #3395531 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T15:09:22Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon And teachers should do teaching, not bureaucracy.
(DIR) Post #3395562 by telent@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T14:33:33Z
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@Wolf480pl @z428 @Shamar @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon obviously the analogy is not perfect. There are some jobs harder than others and some parts on some bikes are less "open" than others - surprisingly enough, these are usually the parts that contain software ...
(DIR) Post #3395563 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T14:55:28Z
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@telent @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon I think the whole point we are discussing here is: what is #Informatics?Is it something we do or is a tool we use to think?It's about #Computers or about #Information?Is it a #technology like the steam engines or more an evolution of #Math, "the art of learning"?And if so, how deeply is it going to change our minds, for better or worse?
(DIR) Post #3395564 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T15:01:07Z
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@Shamar It's a science, just like math or any engineering field. You can make parts of it easily accessible but you can't abstract all of its complexity away and make *all* of its potential available to untrained users - just like with engineering or math.@telent @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3395565 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T15:10:37Z
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@z428 @Shamar @telent @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon IMO IT is not science, for the most part.How often do you see the scientific method applied to IT? How many theorems confirmed by rigorous experimentation?How many explanations of why X worked and Y didn't work?IMO it's more like alchemy.
(DIR) Post #3395608 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T15:12:35Z
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@grainloom @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Hm... so you disagree with this 35c3 talk about teaching programming?https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9800-how_to_teach_programming_to_your_loved_ones#l=eng
(DIR) Post #3395717 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T15:16:30Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon I would have to rewatch it because I don't remember every point. I certainly found it better than the way I've seen IT being taught.
(DIR) Post #3395720 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T15:16:37Z
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@Wolf480pl That's actually even worse... 😉@Shamar @telent @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3395756 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T09:56:08Z
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@z428 @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon You are right that in the short term being kind and welcoming nerds is all we can do. We should also care about older people that are never going to understand how they are strictly controlled and used by the #software they use.But if we don't change approach, this will never change. And who benefit from such #power?A bunch of #BrainWashing corps.
(DIR) Post #3395757 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T13:37:07Z
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@Shamar The essence of what you are saying is: Specialize in everything so you can do everything on your own to be free and do not have to depend upon anyone because no one can be trusted (why should this be limited to software?). Good luck trying. @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3395758 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T14:40:07Z
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@z428 @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon No.I'm saying that programming is not going to be different from writing: it's something that enhance our ability to reason, that literally augment the abilities of our minds and that insisting to reserve it to a cast of elect is not just elitism but plain shortsighted.It's like we were trying to reserve Math to a cast because "they can't get it".
(DIR) Post #3395759 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T14:49:38Z
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@Shamar That's a pretty much different statement compared to what you wrote earlier and *miles* away from people being able to understand or even fix the software they use on a daily basis.@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3395760 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T15:10:23Z
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@z428 @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon To me it is exactly the same.The difference between explaining De Morgan laws to a class and make them deduce it by themselves while writing a program is that in one case most students will forget it after the exam, in the others most students will consider them obvious and integrate them in their way of thinking.If you can't do, you don't know.
(DIR) Post #3395761 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-26T15:13:34Z
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@Shamar No. A lot of our users in planning and construction use software such as AutoCAD for designing buildings all day. The best they possibly could do is some superficial scripted automation. They *never* would be able to fix anything in this application, even if they had the sources. Where is your point?@Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3395762 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-26T15:18:15Z
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@z428 @Shamar @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon That's probably not true, you can fix small bugs even when you don't understand the whole system.https://drewdevault.com/2018/03/17/Hack-everything-without-fear.html
(DIR) Post #3395787 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T15:19:11Z
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@grainloom @Wolf480pl @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon Good point. I stand corrected.However (at least in Italy) it's quite common for shy kids to write as a way to express their feelings. When my eldest daughter was 8 she draw an incredible comic with her friends and (as a super hero) her first crush!
(DIR) Post #3400628 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T15:31:19Z
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@z428 @telent @Wolf480pl @MatejLach @grainloom @alcinnz @cbowdon First #IT not a #Science just like Math is not a Science. Talking about "Computer Science" is totally misleading and should be fixed worldwide.It is a #technology for what it pertains to #hardware construction.But for #software it's something different, much more like #Math.Is it an Art?Knuth would say so.I'd say it's something new.
(DIR) Post #3401917 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T09:43:48Z
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@xj9 @grainloom @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon @Wolf480pl Uhm... I agree on this but to be honest I didn't found a microkernel with enough advantages to justify a total rewrite of Jehanne's one.I really welcome suggestions.Constrains are LP64, little endian with SMP support written in C or a simpler language.
(DIR) Post #3401918 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-26T18:40:02.050481Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom that’s chill. it’s better if there are many implementations of the standard. whatever that ends up being. extensions to 9p or some other protocol might be a good place to start.
(DIR) Post #3405418 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T19:31:10Z
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@xj9 @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom Uhm... I don't know what "chill" means in this context.Multiple implementation will be welcome (it's a totally new protocol) but it's not going to become a standard: that would open to non-copylefted implementations and I want the next Web to be Free Software at every single layer.
(DIR) Post #3405419 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-26T21:15:00.486344Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon @Wolf480pl so you want a viral protocol license? i guess that would work. i suppose we wont be able to interop then since my projects are all Unlicense.oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(DIR) Post #3405535 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:20:40Z
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@Shamar @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom IANAL, but from what I understand, under current copyright law network protocols temselves are not copyrightable. I can always get one person to reverse-engineer your program and write a spec for the protocol in such an uncreative way that the spec is not copyrightable, and then have another person read the spec and make a clean-room impl.And there are copyright exceptions for "reverse engineering for compatibility".
(DIR) Post #3405542 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:21:20Z
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@Shamar @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom s/compatibility/interoperability/
(DIR) Post #3405600 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:24:45Z
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@Wolf480pl @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom Except if the protocol is encrypted.
(DIR) Post #3405687 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:29:27Z
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@Shamar @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom How will the protocol encryption prevent me from reading your code and documenting how it uses the network?
(DIR) Post #3405734 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:31:08Z
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@Wolf480pl @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom If you read my code and documents what it does, such documentation is a derived work.
(DIR) Post #3405739 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:31:19Z
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@Shamar @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom Only if it's copyrightable.
(DIR) Post #3405776 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:32:53Z
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@Wolf480pl @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom Sure.Why it shouldn't?
(DIR) Post #3405785 by a_breakin_glass@cybre.space
2019-01-26T21:25:34Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom that only works if the code is proprietary
(DIR) Post #3405786 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:31:27Z
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@a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom Why?
(DIR) Post #3405787 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:33:11Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom Because by definition, only creative works can be derivative works.Ideas cannot be copyrighted.If a certain work is the only way to express a particular idea, then it is not a derivative work, and copyright does not apply to it.
(DIR) Post #3405817 by a_breakin_glass@cybre.space
2019-01-26T21:33:28Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom I don't think it is. after all, if you decompile and clean room reverse engineer it, that isn't vulnerable to copyright problems. why should the source make much difference
(DIR) Post #3405818 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:34:24Z
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@a_breakin_glass @Shamar @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom For a good measure, you could first run the source through an obfuscator that renames each variable with names like var001 var002, etc.
(DIR) Post #3405834 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:35:18Z
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@Wolf480pl @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom You mean the documentation?I could simply translate it to a different language to show it's not the only way to express the idea.
(DIR) Post #3405866 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:23:09Z
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@xj9 @grainloom @a_breakin_glass @z428 @MatejLach @alcinnz @cbowdon @Wolf480pl Unlicense? Didn't know it.Yes I want a viral protocol #copyleft.Something like the #HackingLicense that is actually designed for this purpose: http://www.tesio.it/documents/HACK.txt
(DIR) Post #3405867 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-26T21:36:50.776890Z
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@Shamar @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @a_breakin_glass @grainloom > The Unlicense is a template for disclaiming copyright monopoly interest in software you've written; in other words, it is a template for dedicating your software to the public domain.https://unlicense.org/
(DIR) Post #3405916 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:39:32Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom The Judges think otherwisehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design#Case_law
(DIR) Post #3405987 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:43:27Z
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@Wolf480pl @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom If the similarities are 100% that's copyright violation.
(DIR) Post #3406010 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:44:48Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom If all the similarities are a result of the constraints (being compatible, writing in a particular language, operating on an x86 processor), then it's not.This is not patents, this is copyright.
(DIR) Post #3406075 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:47:37Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom But why am I telling you this.IIRC you know a lawyer. Ask that lawyer. Ask them whether there is no country in which making a non-copyleft implementation of your protocol would be legal.
(DIR) Post #3406151 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:50:39Z
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@Wolf480pl @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom Indeed.If you can sell drawing of a mouse which is compatible with Mikey Mouse without being Mikey Mouse, Disney would fail.A protocol is not a piece of hardware.You have plenty of alternatives if you want a fs protocol. But this one is under the strongest copyleft I can think.
(DIR) Post #3406183 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T21:52:47Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom By compatible I meant interoperable.And interoperability in the context of cartoon character doesn't make sense AFAIK.But if I have a device that speaks your protocol, I have the right to make my own implementation of that protocol on my own computer and be able to interact with that device, no matter how the code on the device itself is licensed.
(DIR) Post #3406204 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:53:59Z
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@Wolf480pl @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom I did.There are plenty of places where copyright simply doesn't exist. And contexts where it cannot be enforced. Yet GPL is still a thing.Why?
(DIR) Post #3406303 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T21:58:52Z
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@Wolf480pl @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @alcinnz @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom I think that it's not that simple.But I will think about this. ;-)
(DIR) Post #3406327 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-26T21:59:53Z
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@Wolf480pl @Shamar @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom Which I'd btw consider a legal win.We want to give people the choice in what software they run, and if the protocols they're expected to use can't be reimplemented by their preferred (ideally libre) software they can't achieve that.
(DIR) Post #3406489 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T22:06:05Z
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@alcinnz @Wolf480pl @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom I don't like this kinds of arguments.Like if free software couldn't be much more innovative than proprietary one and such innovation shouldn't be preserved in the commons.I think this comes fron GNU being a free clone of unix. Why we can't invent something unmatched deserving protection?
(DIR) Post #3406693 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T22:12:04Z
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@alcinnz @Wolf480pl @a_breakin_glass @xj9 @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom Ultimately there's a reason if the file protocol is not yet public: if I have to choose between keeping it secret or throwing it as garbage for the market to exploit, it will remain secret.
(DIR) Post #3406694 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-26T22:14:18.035761Z
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@Shamar @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @cbowdon @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @alcinnz i think the lesson we can learn from UNIX is, any API can and will be implemented in a way that you cannot control or prevent.
(DIR) Post #3406849 by a_breakin_glass@cybre.space
2019-01-26T22:18:42Z
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@Shamar @alcinnz @Wolf480pl @xj9 @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom what's the point of a secret api
(DIR) Post #3406850 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-26T22:21:04Z
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@a_breakin_glass @Shamar @Wolf480pl @xj9 @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom Ooooh. Those are the bain of my life when using computers! It's what pushes me to use proprietary software.
(DIR) Post #3406877 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-26T22:22:28.233710Z
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@alcinnz @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @cbowdon @Wolf480pl @Shamar @a_breakin_glass untag.me
(DIR) Post #3406934 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T22:25:13Z
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@alcinnz @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom Mind to elaborate?What do you mean?
(DIR) Post #3407248 by cvcvcv@bsd.moe
2019-01-26T22:38:53.493792Z
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@xj9 @Shamar @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @cbowdon @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @alcinnz UNIX ((((innovation)))) is another word for DIVERGENCE from STANDARDS, fucking WEENIES cant even do ANYTHING right
(DIR) Post #3407392 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-26T22:44:23Z
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@xj9 @Shamar @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @cbowdon @a_breakin_glass @alcinnz Moreover, if nobody reimplements your API, it means your API is shit.
(DIR) Post #3407430 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-26T22:45:30Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom e.g. being pushed to use Skype in order to communicate with someone.I guess my stance on copyrighting protocols is that it can only hurt our cause. Either libre software is speaking some weird protocol the people we want to reach can't use, or more frequently they're speaking the weird protocol we can't implement.
(DIR) Post #3407797 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T23:01:03Z
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@Wolf480pl @xj9 @grainloom @z428 @MatejLach @cbowdon @a_breakin_glass @alcinnz They are free to reimplement the API, but as derived work under the exact same license.
(DIR) Post #3408018 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T23:10:13Z
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@alcinnz @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom I think we are all too trained to think that- innovation can only occur for money- commons are there to be exploited by corporationsI want to challenge both assumptions.I want to innovate for fun and build something that can drag everybody in a world of free software. The problem is HOW, not if.
(DIR) Post #3408066 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-26T23:11:38Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom And I am not arguing that either of those points are the case.
(DIR) Post #3408198 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-26T23:15:51Z
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@alcinnz @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom Sorry I'm probably too tired and I can't follow your reasoning.What do you mean?
(DIR) Post #3408309 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-26T23:20:19Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloomI certainly don't agree that either with:- innovation can only occur for money - that's not the case for what I consider my biggest ones.- commons are for corporate exploitation - that's not the point of it, and it doesn't always happen.(cont.)
(DIR) Post #3408362 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-26T23:22:03Z
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@Shamar @a_breakin_glass @Wolf480pl @cbowdon @MatejLach @z428 @grainloom I'm just saying I don't want there to be more of a communication gap between us libre software lovers and "normal" people then there already is.
(DIR) Post #3429067 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-27T14:18:17Z
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@alcinnzyou state a key point that repeatedly gets lost in these types of discussions. and the same people continue to miss it.The door to programming should always be open to everyone--no artificial barriers in the way for those who have the interest & aptitude to build & exercise their skill. 1/2@z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3429099 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-27T14:14:13Z
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@z428They do 'better' because they, through inordinate market power accrued through tactics at least as shady as anti-competitive hiring practices, get to define what 'better' means.@Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3429100 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-27T14:19:29Z
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@deejoe @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon imho there were/are better systems that give users more freedom that were commercial failures because they weren't marketed properly or weren't lucrative enough for developers looking for a quick profit. Linux package managers are better than app stores, but app stores don't require you to share your source.
(DIR) Post #3429130 by grainloom@cybre.space
2019-01-27T14:20:39Z
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@deejoe @z428 @Shamar @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon or look at DRM. big money and power hungry megacorps looooove DRM, but it's objectively terrible for everyone else.
(DIR) Post #3429568 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T14:36:04Z
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@grainloom I'm always back to XMPP and WhatsApp as maybe the most crucial example of everything that possibly could have been done wrong: The "tech" and FLOSS elite fully ignoring or laughing at a new piece of technology that doesn't fit their world view. The XMPP crowd that always focussed on a technology but never cared about building a product actually working for users - 1/4
(DIR) Post #3429616 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T14:38:33Z
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@z428 @grainloom For me, the phrase"building a product"alone means something like "get rich by fooling people into buying our crap".I don't like products.I like tools.
(DIR) Post #3429772 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T14:44:43Z
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@Wolf480pl For me, "building a product" means shipping something like a car, a knife, a book, something that has defined features and a defined, ensured quality and is suitable by certain people for a certain purpose, no matter whether or not money is involved. @grainloom
(DIR) Post #3430028 by suetanvil@mastodon.technology
2019-01-27T14:54:13Z
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@MatejLach It’d be cheaper to just maintain an audited fork of Chrome that doesn’t phone home and has less access to the host system.
(DIR) Post #3430039 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T14:54:22Z
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@z428 @grainloom Ok, but that means that:- (assuming you're not in your target group) You need to make a piece of software that will not be useful to yourself.- You need to understand what your target group wants. This requires understanding other people, which is exteremly hard.- Your users will expect certain quality from your product- You will have to support those users- None of those users will ever become contributorsIMO this is the opposite of success.
(DIR) Post #3430300 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T15:04:18Z
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@Wolf480pl It means that you do not *just* focus on what suits your needs but also pay attention to other people who need more or different features or easier interfaces. That's why WhatsApp is successful and XMPP isn't .@grainloom
(DIR) Post #3430395 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T15:07:44Z
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@z428 @grainloom What makes you think WhatsApp is successful?How many contributors does it have?
(DIR) Post #3430541 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T14:25:14Z
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@deejoe No. They *do* better because they made technology available to users in a way "accessible" to these. They do things such as thinking about "target groups" or user personas and actual requirements in term of usability as well. They do that for profit, and of course they use marketing for that, but in the end WhatsApp, Google, Facebook *did* make technology accessible to people who never used a computer before - 1/4
(DIR) Post #3430542 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T14:25:15Z
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@deejoe @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon We can try to ignore this or argue it away but the amount of people using these channels and tools (both because they are easy and/or because they aren't able to use any other tools) possibly will not care - 2/4
(DIR) Post #3430543 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-27T14:31:22Z
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@z428it's a cycle, of course: They can do usability work with the ill-gotten gains from vertical lock-in & other anti-competitive shenanigans. @Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3430544 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-27T14:34:34Z
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@z428on the one hand we have people who want to eliminate the 'normal' user by making them all programmerson the other, those who want to 'fight for the user' on a battlefield of their opponents choosing@Shamar @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3430545 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-27T15:06:43Z
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@deejoe @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Uhm... just to be clear: I don’t want to eliminate users but to free them from the people who use them through the software.When most people will be programmers, it will much easier to build usable free software for those who aren't because most (all?) software will be free.The problem is that it's a race.
(DIR) Post #3430546 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-27T15:12:13Z
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@deejoe @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon I think it's very evident that we cannot compete with corporations paying thousands of developers (and fooling even more to work for free "because fOSS") on building successful applications because they decide what successful applications must look like.They WANT us to waste our energy trying!So they can hire and subdue us.
(DIR) Post #3430547 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T15:13:59Z
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@Shamar @deejoe @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon I think one example of how corpos defined what "successful" means, is when Apple started making smartphones with touchscreens w/o physical keyboards, and everyone else followed suit.
(DIR) Post #3430728 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T15:22:47Z
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@Wolf480pl I can delete my XMPP account without much issues. I can delete WhatsApp and be sure to cut digital contact with about 80% of my contact list, including quite a couple of folks who don't even know or use e-mail or SMS. User base is quite an important aspect for a communication channel. @grainloom
(DIR) Post #3430767 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T15:24:03Z
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@z428 @grainloom Ok, but it's not users that make a FOSS project sustainable. It's contributors.So for a communication channel it is important to have a lot of users, but it is not possible for a FOSS projects to have much more users than contributors.
(DIR) Post #3430786 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-27T15:24:39Z
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@Wolf480pl @deejoe @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon Browsers are even better examples.They (aka #Google) literally decide what a standard browser must look like, very aware that only them (and few friends that depends economically on their money) can try to build one.
(DIR) Post #3430788 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T15:24:46Z
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@z428 @grainloom Or maybe I should say:It's not possible to increase the number of users without first increasing the number of contributors.
(DIR) Post #3430846 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T15:27:25Z
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@Wolf480pl How sustainable is spending effort on a tool that doesn't make a difference to anyone? How sustainable is building 100 XMPP clients that all look like 1990s ICQ while people move to Slack or WhatsApp? @grainloom
(DIR) Post #3430853 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-27T15:18:56Z
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@deejoe @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon So we need to be smarter and spread what they fear most: #knowledge.It's not Knowledge that is power but Ignorance that is weakness. By empowering people we subtract them users, data, revenues... we shrink their market and make their product useless or even annoying: "WHAT? why I can't change this code? Refund me now!"
(DIR) Post #3430854 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T15:25:41Z
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@Shamar This will fail. People never will have enough knowledge to compete with Google or Apple either. We shouldn't forget it's not just about marketing - they actually *do* have a bunch of very skilled people in their teams, way more skilled than average programmers or even an end user trying to write code.@deejoe @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3430855 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T15:27:52Z
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@z428 @deejoe @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon I think what @Shamar is trying to do is to change peoples' expecations so that their requirements are incompatible with Google's and Apple's business model.
(DIR) Post #3430882 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T15:29:06Z
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@z428 @grainloom It's sustainable if I build a tool that I need myself and that I use on a daily basis.
(DIR) Post #3430920 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T15:30:24Z
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@Wolf480pl That won't work however because the difference between his approach and Google/Apple is that Google/Apple are way closer to peoples actual individual requirements. We should learn to respect those if we don't want people to ignore us.@deejoe @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @cbowdon @Shamar
(DIR) Post #3430968 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T15:31:45Z
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@z428 @grainloom OTOH, if I do tech support and fix bugs for 100 of users that use my tool but don't understand how it works, and nobody pays me for it, that's not sustainable.
(DIR) Post #3431006 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T15:32:36Z
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@Wolf480pl It's sustainable, as well, if I buy a piece of software that suits my needs and pay people to make sure they can make a living off maintaining this piece of software for me. From that point of view, I don't even see the *need* for FLOSS as a non-developer. 😉@grainloom
(DIR) Post #3431020 by Wolf480pl@niu.moe
2019-01-27T15:33:03Z
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@z428 @grainloom And this is why non-developers don't use FLOSS.
(DIR) Post #3431068 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T15:34:36Z
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@Wolf480pl Right. And that's why we need an approach to make FLOSS funding sustainable to end-users and developers. @grainloom
(DIR) Post #3432242 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-27T16:11:02Z
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@suetanvil It would be cheaper, but also practically pointless. What you don't want is #Google being in charge of defining standards and what the future of the web looks like. Just recently there was a change they want to merge into Chromium where only pre-defined ad-blocking lists, consisting of statically defined addresses would work. You wouldn't want to work with such a codebase. Moreover auditing Chromium would be so expensive that the price difference vs dev might not be worth it.
(DIR) Post #3432342 by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2019-01-27T16:14:24Z
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@suetanvil That said, pouring resources into Servo, or sponsoring #Firefox development to the point where #Mozilla doesn't fill the need to search for shady alternative revenue sources would be an acceptable compromise. However ideally, am for as many independent browser engines existing as possible, so no one is dominant enough to abuse their power.
(DIR) Post #3434003 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-27T15:35:54Z
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@Shamar> When most people will be programmersif you take the expansive view *most* users are already programmers, just too high up the stack to make much difference in the pile of dependencies on which they continually teeter@z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3434122 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-27T14:22:26Z
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@alcinnz 2/2but not everyone will be able to do that. software freedom is still *crucial* to them, because it enables a cascade of accountability: The might not be able to code, but they should be able to interrogate the process by which those who code on their behalf work, up to & including choosing who codes for them.@z428 @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3434505 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-27T15:43:40Z
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@deejoe @z428 @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Indeed I usually say "hackers", not just programmers.However I don’t care much about the future of Google, if they will go out of business or not.I care about the people that will be freed from them.
(DIR) Post #3434506 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-27T16:02:39Z
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@Shamar Pretty interesting however, is that early Google freed a lot of internet users from flaky, incomplete and painful web searches and became the defacto search engine even within the FLOSS community for very long. Why Google? Why not something open or decentralized? 😉@deejoe @grainloom @alcinnz @MatejLach @Wolf480pl @cbowdon
(DIR) Post #3435422 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-27T17:55:20Z
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@MatejLach @Shamar @Wolf480pl @cbowdon Yeah, it's one thing for me to try to show that some ideas for the next web aren't so crazy.It's another to transition into it, but ultimately that's what I'm interested in making happen.