Post 2907811 by cwebber@octodon.social
(DIR) More posts by cwebber@octodon.social
(DIR) Post #2873429 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2019-01-11T18:29:38Z
3 likes, 6 repeats
I was wrong about Google and Facebook: there’s nothing wrong with them (so say we all)https://ar.al/2019/01/11/i-was-wrong-about-google-and-facebook-theres-nothing-wrong-with-them-so-say-we-all/It’s always difficult admitting you’re wrong. But sometimes you have to in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. So, today, I admit that I was wrong about Google, Facebook, & surveillance capitalism in general being toxic for our human rights and democracy … it simply cannot be true given how they are endorsed by some of the most well-respected organisations in the world.
(DIR) Post #2873451 by clacke@libranet.de
2019-01-11T18:41:55Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aral You're super annoying with all this talk about surveillance capitalism.Thank you.
(DIR) Post #2873550 by bob@soc.freedombone.net
2019-01-11T18:45:49.371470Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aral Well in the software industry there are a lot of men behind curtains. And yes I do mean men specifically. But you see you're not supposed to pay attention to them or what they're up to. They could, and actually are, exfiltrating all manner of stuff, but you're only supposed to care about how fast the Android screen swipes, or having notches or the sparkling city that is Microsoft Github.I expect that the entente cordiale with Google will not last for much longer. They're on a path towards dropping the linux kernel and replacing it with the Fuchsia microkernel. If initial reports of accurate a world in which Fuchsia is the most popular operating system will make today's problems look like a picnic.
(DIR) Post #2876964 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-11T19:09:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bob @aral But guys... don't forget our hope!Teach people to #program and self-host, and you will break the chains these empires are built upon.
(DIR) Post #2876965 by bob@soc.freedombone.net
2019-01-11T20:06:09.830220Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@Shamar @aral There are many problems with the technology industry and at every level of the stack. That includes the human element too. We can only work incrementally towards improving things in the direction that we'd prefer to see.Fortunately the dystopia that we have now is a strong motivator for change. The growth of the fediverse is another sign that people want something different and less evil.But things also move slowly. Real criticism of Google and Facebook within mainstream outlets has only happened within the last couple of years, and a lot of organizations have yet to catch up. I bet there are still many people in the "everything Google does is fabulous" camp.
(DIR) Post #2879645 by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-01-11T21:30:56Z
2 likes, 3 repeats
@aral I have serious criticisms of Google and Facebook myself. However, I don't agree with your criticism of Conservancy/Copyleft Conf. Conservancy has actually lost a lot of money over the years because it has stuck to its principles when sponsors preferred that it do something different (eg drop copyleft enforcement). That's one reason they started doing community fundraising drives, because they wouldn't have had the money to keep going otherwise *because* they stuck to their principles.
(DIR) Post #2879647 by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-01-11T21:32:58Z
3 likes, 6 repeats
@aral I certainly agree with criticisms of surveillance capitalist organizations. However there is another problem: the commons is frequently exploited by large corporations that take and take and take from FOSS and don't give back.If a company is willing to give some money to support free software orgs, no strings attached other than their name appearing on the site, I think that's something we should encourage *more* of. Many companies are taking and not giving, and that sucks.
(DIR) Post #2880425 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2019-01-11T22:22:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber @aral Yeah, but then you fork the project and move on. Look at Bacula and Bareos for example. Bacula went "freemium" with their FOSS code and an angry userbase forked it and made it much better. Both projects still exist side-by-side with the freer project gaining steam.
(DIR) Post #2884379 by camedei456@shitposter.club
2019-01-12T00:41:06.261143Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aral On a timeline where Capitalism isn't regulated out of existence, it will turn out to be the root cause for the rights of the people being eroded.
(DIR) Post #2887391 by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-01-11T21:34:07Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@aral I do agree that much FOSS *software* is working too hard to bend over backwards for proprietary software integration where decentralized tech integration should be preferred and prioritized however.
(DIR) Post #2887432 by wolftune@social.coop
2019-01-11T21:39:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber @aral I have long advocated a middle-ground here:**Whenever you compromise your values, APOLOGIZE for it**Instead of insisting on absolute purity, we can accept that real-world trade-offs happen. But don't present it as normal business, ASK to be excused and explain the situation.In this case, SFC etc. should have some qualifier every place they reference the Google or Microsoft sponsorships. Something like an *acknowledgement* that this is a compromise and link to a statement.
(DIR) Post #2887433 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-11T22:44:57Z
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@wolftune @cwebber @aral They can't say that.It's like saying: sorry, we are organizing a conference on #copyleft with the worst enemy of copyleft out there, but hey this is not #marketing, this is serious stuff and you can trust we will be serious about exploring all the ways we can change copyleft to maximize #FreeSoftware, even if they don't want we to.
(DIR) Post #2887434 by wolftune@social.coop
2019-01-11T22:50:13Z
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@Shamar @cwebber @aral They can totally say something like: "We acknowledge that many practices of these companies go against the goals of Copyleft, and we recognize the concerns people have about the conflicts in our accepting their support as sponsors of our conference." and link to a longer statement about why they still felt the compromise was still the right decision.I'm not asking anyone to deny anything. It's totally feasible to *admit* and *explain* when we make compromises.
(DIR) Post #2887435 by oshwm@mastodon.social
2019-01-11T23:15:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolftuneif they feel their decision is the right call, why should they have to apologise?Maybe instead just note that they are happy to compromise on their core issue and thus should not be trusted to defend this core issue?@Shamar @cwebber @aral
(DIR) Post #2887436 by wolftune@social.coop
2019-01-11T23:19:38Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@oshwm @Shamar @cwebber @aral https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apologyThere is *nothing* about apologizing that implies an action is *necessarily* the wrong decision. There are TONS of cases in life in which the right decision involves a compromise *and* an apology, which means an explanation, a justification, and an acknowledgement of the problems and harms the compromise involves.You have no basis to assume that anyone compromising is "happy" to compromise. That's a condescending way to think.
(DIR) Post #2890602 by foggy@hidden.blue
2019-01-11T21:39:18.485322Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@cwebber @aral Aral's implicit point here (and explicitly... everywhere else) is that to consider this money as being "no strings attached" is a fallacy. The idea that these companies do a lot of taking and not enough giving presupposes that the giving they do isn't part-and-parcel with the taking in the first place (which, again, is Aral's overarching point here).It seems shallowly utilitarian (if the calculus is even right) to say that multinational corporations with a parasitic business model are doing something good when they throw their weight around in free software.
(DIR) Post #2892532 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-11T20:13:58Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Holy shit @aral...Do you want to Out-Stallman Stallman? :-DNice piece, very well written.
(DIR) Post #2892537 by tjemni@qoto.org
2019-01-11T20:54:33Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@bob @Shamar @aral I've classmates in the 'everything what Google does is fabelous camp'. I try to talk to them about Libre software and federation, but they don't seem so bother. That's what corpate layalism looks like.If we can just show the world, with proof of course, how bad those companies are, maybe one day they'll catch up.I already ''saved'' one of them by showing how much Google is relient on Free Software. Have patients my friend.
(DIR) Post #2893325 by njoseph@social.masto.host
2019-01-12T08:01:29Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@aral I don't have any comments to make about Google being on Gnome Advisory Board, but that can't be a reason for rejecting your merge request to add FastMail as a provider in Geary.@mjog 's reasoning to not include any more email-provider options and do an auto-discovery instead seems reasonable to me, as a third-party observer. Merging your patch would've meant more unnecessary maintenance of code that they'll have to find and delete in the future anyway.https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/geary/issues/41#note_271919
(DIR) Post #2894097 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2019-01-12T08:47:50Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@wolftune @Shamar @cwebber This assumes that we take it at face value that Google, etc., are benevolent entities that would keep sponsoring these conferences/orgs even if they criticised them. That’s definitely how they want to be seen but my experience says otherwise. When (sponsor) Google had to follow my keynote at NextM, their representative was fuming and told the organisers to change the line up for the next event… https://mobile.twitter.com/aral/status/976738619527397379
(DIR) Post #2894175 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-12T08:53:30Z
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@njoseph @aral @mjog From what I've heard, Fastmail does implement the standard for autodiscovery on their end.They do some to be really good about implementing all these standards, and I wish that wasn't as high of praise as I am treating it.
(DIR) Post #2894438 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2019-01-12T08:55:10Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@wolftune @Shamar @cwebber … New America fired Barry Lynn when his Open Markets criticised (New America sponsor) Google on antitrust grounds. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/us/politics/anne-marie-slaughter-new-america-google.htmlMore personally, Linda and I resigned from the Code Club board when we were told not to criticise (sponsor) Google: https://pando.com/2014/08/27/code-club-cofounder-resigns-after-being-ordered-not-to-criticize-google/It’s all well and good to assume that these companies are benevolent and that their.m money comes without strings but it’s just not true.
(DIR) Post #2894902 by valerauko@pawoo.net
2019-01-12T09:36:54Z
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@bob @aral could you refer to some of those reports? i'd love to read up
(DIR) Post #2901227 by mdhughes@cybre.space
2019-01-12T14:30:34Z
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@aral One thing to note is, at least on some of those you can change your search engine even though they've been paid off for a default: Apple & Firefox let you switch to DDG, but Siri uses Google ("hey Siri search for web privacy") and can't be changed. I'm wary of what I ask Siri for that reason, but 95% sure Apple doesn't leak anything else to Google through Siri.
(DIR) Post #2907507 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-12T15:24:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@oshwm Applying that analysis leaves us not trusting @aral too.I'm just now picking up this thread again, because, as best I can tell, he's blocked me for noting his own compromises.The question isn't whether we compromise or not. We do.The question is, what are we going to do to make it better?This purist bomb-throwin feeds into the rage machine that so many of us in the fediverse are trying to disentangle ourselves fromhttps://mastodon.sdf.org/@deejoe/101404234650071257@wolftune @Shamar @cwebber
(DIR) Post #2907508 by oshwm@mastodon.social
2019-01-12T16:15:20Z
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@deejoe @oshwm @aral @wolftune @Shamar @cwebber I do not know @aral well enough to know if I can trust him or not, he certainly makes the right noises - but you know different and I would like to know what he has done that shows how he has compromised on his 'core values' so that I can put him in the same category (in my mind) as @conservancy As for Rage Machine, maybe it is not a bad thing if we are being misled by so many people and organisations.
(DIR) Post #2907509 by wolftune@social.coop
2019-01-12T16:26:52Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@oshwm You can trust @aral — he's shown long-term consistency, addressed his own issues (moved toward fully-FLO away from Apple).But the rage-machine concerns are valid. It's one way to reinforce tribalism and manipulate activists. Purism is a witch-hunt style eat-your-own approach. The whole idea of badge-beliefs and of checking whether someone is "one of us" leads to all sorts fo dysfunctions.That tribalism is exploitable by actual bad actors.@deejoe @Shamar @cwebber @conservancy
(DIR) Post #2907510 by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2019-01-12T19:07:22.656625Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@wolftune @conservancy @cwebber @Shamar @deejoe @aral @oshwm purism is a good start, but we need a fractal approach to this problem. lots of interoperable open hardware projects. esp with RISC-V right around the corner, there’s no reason for us to be dependent on Intel/AMD/ARM for silicon IP or manufacture
(DIR) Post #2907811 by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-01-12T19:02:12Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@wolftune @oshwm @deejoe @Shamar @conservancy To be clear I'm not challenging the legitimacy of @aral who is a free software activist who I think is acting in good faith and clearly cares about the topic. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with the post from a strategy point of view :)
(DIR) Post #2909776 by Ajz@mastodon.nl
2019-01-11T23:55:53Z
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@aral And some more on Fastmail. Do they do opensource ? Have disk encryption on their servers ? They don't seem -on their website- like a particular privacy focused email provider like e.g. Protonmail,Tutanota,Posteo,mailbox.org. And Fastmail say that they care about your privacy ? Nowadays you open a random website and the first popup says : "We care about your privacy". Continue and see their tracking web-links in uMatrix add-on visible, and their cookies on your hdd for years. #fastmail
(DIR) Post #2909777 by maxmustermann@shitposter.club
2019-01-12T20:55:48.543623Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ajz @aral Jesus Christ! Even Cock.li is more trustworthy than a provider that is in Austria. The government are not bad guys, they are just boomers who have no idea how to deal with technology.
(DIR) Post #2909915 by 1iceloops123@shitposter.club
2019-01-12T20:59:53.610668Z
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@maxmustermann @ajz @aral i heard proton isn't secure.
(DIR) Post #2909997 by maxmustermann@shitposter.club
2019-01-12T21:02:33.027373Z
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@1iceloops123 @ajz @aral proton mail? Wasn't this the one cleaned out by homeland security after Snowden defected to Russia?
(DIR) Post #2910042 by 1iceloops123@shitposter.club
2019-01-12T21:03:53.457566Z
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@maxmustermann @ajz @aral more like lavabitproton mail on web isn't encrypted and does the same stuff google does like looks through your emails....
(DIR) Post #2910314 by Ajz@mastodon.nl
2019-01-12T21:03:22Z
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@maxmustermann @aral After the Snowden revelations all kind of new privacy projects popped up. At that time I got the impression the Iceland, Sweden, Switzerland were good for privacy when it comes to the country law. Right now I'm not sure, but USA, UK, AU seems plain bad for any Internet related provider. I'm customer at some German email providers but it is not perfect re: law. And is the GDPR in favor of EU customers ? #privacy #law #crypto
(DIR) Post #2910315 by maxmustermann@shitposter.club
2019-01-12T21:12:42.355556Z
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@ajz @aral The GDPR only applies to EU citizens and any entity that does business in the EU. It heavily favors EU customers. At least on paper.The law is designed to make google tell you what data they collect. In reality it chokes interactivity to death in the Krautnet. You can't simply run a guestbook or a Fediverse node in Germany without a autistic wall of text explaining to the user what data is collected. As a provider, you could as well do what Lokitech is doing on 8chan and salt the earth by hiding everything in hashes. Before some autist jumps on me for not mentioning Sunshine; I said Loki Technology, not Hotwheels.
(DIR) Post #2914450 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-12T16:35:51Z
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@wolftune @oshwm @aral @Shamar @cwebber @conservancy So, I've begun to think about what you might call the "freedom curve", plotted on an axes labelled "freedom" (y) and "reach" (x). I suspect it looks something like an exponential decay, with high freedom plotted at the far left, but with very little reach (let's just say for sake of argument that's where RMS and TdR and a Gideon's Band of others sit). As you move to the right, freedom falls away, but you cover more people.
(DIR) Post #2914451 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-12T16:38:47Z
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@wolftune @oshwm @aral @Shamar @cwebber @conservancy Assuming one can influence the shape of the curve, what do you do?Do you try to increase the overall limits of freedom for the few on the left? I think someone should.Do you try to increase the integrated freedom, under the curve, by lifting the broad but imperfect freedoms of people further to the right? Yes, that too.I haven't used this model so much to think about privacy but it might be useful there too.
(DIR) Post #2914452 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-12T18:51:44Z
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@deejoe @wolftune @oshwm @cwebberI like the approach but you definitely need more dimensions to describe the system.Yet if @aral is a saint or not is totally unrelevant here. Is he right about #SurveillanceCapitalism?I think so.Is he right that @conservancy should not accept #Google money?Again I think so, but we can discuss this.Yet for sure NOT for a conference on #Copyleft!1/
(DIR) Post #2914453 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-12T19:03:25Z
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@deejoe @wolftune @oshwm @cwebber @aral @conservancy Can #Rifle sponsor gun regulation?Can #Malboro sponsor tobacco regulation?Can #Monsanto sponsor GMO regulation?The answer is no, simply because their business model is in direct contrast with such regulations.Can #Google sponsor #Copyleft?No. It's totally the same.So, even beyond #surveillance, this decision is either incredibly naive or plain malicious.
(DIR) Post #2914454 by deejoe@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-12T19:10:59Z
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@ShamarWe can see how @aral handles Apple in these sorts of discussions--is his stance yours also?@wolftune @oshwm @cwebber @conservancy
(DIR) Post #2914455 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-12T19:24:04Z
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@deejoe @aral @wolftune @oshwm @cwebber @conservancy What do you mean?He seem pretty critical about Apple's hypocrisy too. I don’t like Apple but I don't care much about what they do: I simply don't buy their over expensive products.Today they are not that threat to #FreeSoftware: the worse they are doing against freedom is #LLVM, but this turned to be relevant only because of the stubbornness of RMS with GCC.1/
(DIR) Post #2914456 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-12T19:28:54Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@deejoe @aral @wolftune @oshwm @cwebber @conservancy Even #Microsoft, in this time and age, is a secondary threat to free software.They were a problem in 2000, under #Ballmer direction when #FreeSoftware was not mainstream yet.But now they are surrending.I wouldn't be surprised to see a opensource #Windows in a decade or two.2/
(DIR) Post #2916670 by aleks@cybre.space
2019-01-13T01:48:40Z
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@aral "they cut my question from the video of Mozilla’s talk"Wat teh actual fok :| Can we see/hear that question somewhere in some uncut version or ?
(DIR) Post #2926468 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2019-01-13T10:47:03Z
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@aleks Nope. Not unless they release the footage. You can ask them for it; they’re on birdsite: https://mobile.twitter.com/DPforumSwe
(DIR) Post #2930022 by wolftune@social.coop
2019-01-12T22:38:47Z
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@Shamar I totally disagree about Microsoft being not-so-bad a threat.They remain powerful, they aren't embracing software freedom, and their approach to Google is to *try* to outdo them in surveillance-capitalism even.All these entities, Google included, are mixed in some ways.@deejoe @aral @oshwm @cwebber @conservancy
(DIR) Post #2930023 by bob@soc.freedombone.net
2019-01-12T22:59:17.294157Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@wolftune @Shamar @deejoe @aral @oshwm @cwebber @conservancy My take on what's occurring with Microsoft is that they're transitioning to a new business model. So far as they're concerned the personal computing era is over. From here on out the Azure cloud will manage all the desktops and your OS will be ad supported and monitor your behavior to optimize your user experience. Windows and Azure will remain proprietary, since that ensures the telemetry and content delivery pipeline, but anything else can be "open source" to cut developer costs. You'll be able to tweak some settings on Windows, but everything else will be managed from the cloud. No manual updates. Think ChromeOS, but moreso.Microsoft will remain hostile, but as a different kind of threat. They'll be nice as pie so long as your open source project runs on Windows, or in a Linux VM running on Windows, Delivered by Azure(TM). Anything else they either won't care about or will be hostile towards.
(DIR) Post #2967089 by timkuijsten@mastodon.social
2019-01-13T13:41:51Z
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@aral a possibly good rebuttal about AGPL versus copy-left in general https://lobste.rs/s/b6jkt4/i_was_wrong_about_google_facebook_theres#c_tdhkql
(DIR) Post #2967090 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2019-01-13T16:46:40Z
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@timkuijsten I love those kinds of comments. OK, let’s continue to ignore the elephant in the room that the person is talking about but let me draw your attention to the hair on the toe of a door-mouse that I would like to split.AGPL is the CopyLeft license that matters for Google because it is what would force them to release their core technology as free software.As for hypocrisy: oh yes, taking zero money from surveillance capitalists is hypocrisy. They can go fuck right off.
(DIR) Post #2967092 by clacke@libranet.de
2019-01-14T15:35:01Z
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@dgold @aral @timkuijsten If there is, it violates privacy, falls outside the DFSG and the OSI definition and is not free software.
(DIR) Post #2970586 by oshwm@mastodon.social
2019-01-12T08:06:13Z
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@wolftuneWhen you are compromising to such an extent on your Core Issue, your very reason for being then surely you would be better off cancelling the event with as much publicity as possible and stating that you cannot raise the funds to stage the event in an honest way.@Shamar @cwebber @aral
(DIR) Post #2970587 by Shamar@mastodon.social
2019-01-12T09:35:55Z
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@oshwm @wolftune @cwebber @aral @bob This is not going to happen.The #fediverse doesn’t have such powe.Even if the whole Fediverse boosted that #FreeSoftware cannot get #Google money and preserve #freedom, that would not go mainstram.OTOH @conservancy cancelling #CopyleftConf because THEY recognise Google would inhibit #FreeSpeech would shake Free Software from the fundaments.It's naive to hope for this.
(DIR) Post #2970588 by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2019-01-12T09:58:11Z
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@Shamar @oshwm @wolftune @cwebber @bob @conservancy Yeah, not going to happen. Richard told me he isn’t going to pull FSF sponsorship from the event or criticise them for it either as he doesn’t want to anger them (Conservancy).
(DIR) Post #2970589 by oshwm@mastodon.social
2019-01-12T10:37:50Z
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@aralMr Stallman doesn't appear to have as strongly held views as he would like everyone to think.#MoneyTalks@Shamar @wolftune @cwebber @bob @conservancy
(DIR) Post #2970590 by bob@soc.freedombone.net
2019-01-12T11:00:58.773732Z
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@oshwm @conservancy @cwebber @wolftune @Shamar @aralinterject2.jpg
(DIR) Post #2970591 by aemon@social.targaryen.house
2019-01-14T10:29:35Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@bob Folks should bear in mind that RMS is mostly playing a necessary role when in public.And I'm not just talking about Saint iGNUcius.@cwebber @Shamar @conservancy @aral @wolftune @oshwm
(DIR) Post #2989625 by clacke@libranet.de
2019-01-15T06:49:19Z
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@dgold @aral @timkuijsten If you are forced to publish your changes to use the software, the license fails the Desert Island test and the Dissident test. The Dissident test is what I mean by privacy.That is one reason why software freedom is limited to those who actually use the software and have it distributed to them.people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-fa…
(DIR) Post #3021155 by clacke@libranet.de
2019-01-16T03:58:34Z
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@dgold Then we simply disagree. I don't think there's a nonsensical or extreme hypothetical here. I don't want Freedom 0 or Freedom 1 to have conditions on them when I do things for myself, because that would be equivalent to mandating popularity-contest to be installed on all Debian installs, or it would require me to violate the license to study and test the code, and that undermines the value and acceptance of the license.Applying the condition to when my work affects others, Freedom 2 and Freedom 3, and still not overreaching in scope, in order to safeguard the validity and acceptance of the license, is entirely appropriate.www.gnu.org/philosophy/program… says everything I want to say about Freedom 0, but a lot of it applies to Freedom 1 as well.