Post 2901579 by gordon@cybre.space
(DIR) More posts by gordon@cybre.space
(DIR) Post #2893443 by sophia@glitterkitten.co.uk
2019-01-12T08:06:47Z
9 likes, 19 repeats
Adblocking isn't unethical. Covering your website in trackers, spying on users, and compromising their security to make a buck is.
(DIR) Post #2893727 by hellpie@weeaboo.space
2019-01-12T08:26:12.371844Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia Ad Blocking is unethical, but nowadays more than blocking Ads people who care about their privacy block Ad Trackers, which are effectively the same result graphically, since Ads are trackers themselves, but offer a real solution to a real issue, while originally Ad Blockers were designed to hide Ads for smoother browsing experiences now Ad Blockers are designed for killing scripts and requests for secure browsing experiences. Blocking Ads alone is still unethical. Protecting user privacy isn't and should be an inalienable basic human right in 2019's Internet.
(DIR) Post #2900954 by kura@niu.moe
2019-01-12T14:17:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia but blocking ads is destroying businesses and survivability /s
(DIR) Post #2901456 by octalish@mamot.fr
2019-01-12T14:40:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kura @sophia Blocking ads is self-defense, but supporting other form of funding is next step. Always, we are merely conforting as « those who have the knowledge to escape ads ».
(DIR) Post #2901536 by octalish@mamot.fr
2019-01-12T14:43:17Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@kura @sophia Blocking ads is (mandatory) self-defense.But supporting other form of funding is the required next step.Without that step, we are merely taking advantage of being a technicaly-able minority to live in a web the seems like ad-less. For us.
(DIR) Post #2901579 by gordon@cybre.space
2019-01-12T14:46:14Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kura @sophia nah. If their economic model is to compromise me, that’s not my problem and i don’t have to accept it
(DIR) Post #2907795 by jeffalyanak@social.rights.ninja
2019-01-12T19:11:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sophiaI would love to see a website with opt-in ads. That seems like a reasonable concession.
(DIR) Post #2907796 by sophia@glitterkitten.co.uk
2019-01-12T19:14:10Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffalyanak I'd like to see a website with ads that are stationary images/text and don't come with 2935973* trackers.*Figures may be slightly hyperbolic
(DIR) Post #2907835 by TheMysteriousEm@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-12T09:26:22Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sophiaAlso, the internet was an excellent place before the first ad was served, and could be just as awesome after the last ad has gone.
(DIR) Post #2914553 by leyonhjelm@freespeechextremist.com
2019-01-13T00:23:12.769343Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kura @sophiaRefusing to play along with a bad business model is not unethical.
(DIR) Post #2915134 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-12T20:58:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia Always and again asking the same question: Why use sites that use ads after all? I don't really get that. The 'net truly would be different if people didn't choose to use or support ad or tracking based sites at all. It might not work for all, but it's rather easy to blame people for pushing ads down their users throats - and yet still keep using their services. 😐
(DIR) Post #2915135 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2019-01-12T23:52:36Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@z428You don't know what a website has on it until you click it. Also basically every website ever either has ads or tracking so you might as well not go online.Not using the web isn't addressing the underlying issue that capitalism literally has no way to provide for a free and open web without exploiting its users.We need to publicly fund the internet and accept the fact that web traffic can't generate profits ethically.@sophia
(DIR) Post #2915210 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-13T00:45:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pootz @z428 @sophia I think it's worth it though to try to profit ethically online, until we have a better system.Off the top of my head micropayments sound good, as we're paying that money we just need to distribute it more efficiently.
(DIR) Post #2917063 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2019-01-13T02:04:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alcinnzNot saying you can't, just probably isn't sufficient in a lot of cases@z428 @sophia
(DIR) Post #2918874 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2019-01-13T02:07:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alcinnz @z428 @sophiaI mean support people's projects/websites btw, not profit. Profit isn't ethical period but that's a debate for a different thread on how all profit is stolen labor etc etc
(DIR) Post #2918875 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-13T03:34:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pootz @z428 @sophia I'm sorry, I haven't been drawing a distinction there.
(DIR) Post #2918970 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2019-01-13T03:43:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alcinnzYeah no worries most people aren't lol@z428 @sophia
(DIR) Post #2921772 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-13T06:11:15Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@pootz I mostly agree, but using ad blockers again tries to fix things conveniently on the consumer side. We're not even talking profit for web providers here but merely covering costs. That seems to make the existing problem only worse... 😐@sophia
(DIR) Post #2923707 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-13T06:53:09Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 two things on this,> using ad blockers again tries to fix things conveniently on the consumer side1) #FreeCode licenses and #copyleft try to fix things conveniently on the consumer side as well. Waiting for some kind of regulation like #GDPR or #AntiTrust suites to stop companies from abusing #Adware as #Spyware would be about as effective as waiting for states to enforce protection of #SoftwareFreedom through regulation and court action. Still waiting ...@pootz @sophia
(DIR) Post #2925835 by mrjoshtheepic@mastodon.social
2019-01-13T05:24:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia if you want something even better than just blocking ads, u should check out adnauseum https://adnauseam.io/. it simulates clicks on every ad while blocking them from view, so not only do you not see them, but you feed garbage data to the corporations behind them making it more difficult for them to track you and invade your privacy
(DIR) Post #2925836 by sophia@glitterkitten.co.uk
2019-01-13T10:02:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mrjoshtheepic No. It tells them the business model works and gives them money for planting trackers on users devices and compromising their security. I will not help support a corrupt business model.
(DIR) Post #2925905 by sophia@glitterkitten.co.uk
2019-01-13T10:05:46Z
4 likes, 7 repeats
People keep telling me to use Adnauseum, an ad blocker that clicks on ads to give them the profit they desire while actually blocking them all.I'm not helping to give companies profit for a corrupt business practice that is compromising the security of users. It's telling them the business model works and to continue in an extremely 'I'm alright, Jack. Just carry on fucking everyone else over instead' way and I despise it.Build a better model.
(DIR) Post #2925906 by sophia@glitterkitten.co.uk
2019-01-13T10:11:04Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
And if you think using an adblocker that's giving companies who cover sites is ads and trackers (which while it may not affect you *will* get less tech savvy consumers) the maximum amount possible for each click you give them is the more ethical solution, I'd ask you to consider how the company itself is going to perceive your traffic.You're helping to do exactly what a number of them are with bots.
(DIR) Post #2926139 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2019-01-13T10:26:29.679342Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia Yes, it is better to block ads outright instead of use Adnauseum. All that does is harm publishers (bot traffic claims), and harm small businesses which buy CPC ads on Google.Brands are integrated programmatically into these exchanges and simply filter out the Adnauseum traffic anyway.
(DIR) Post #2926358 by inditoot@inditoot.com
2019-01-13T10:39:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia Flattr is much better alternative Paying an small amount to Owner or Mining Crypto.
(DIR) Post #2926386 by inditoot@inditoot.com
2019-01-13T10:40:26Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kaniini @sophia Fake clicks will harm business and Publisher as Google simply ban publisher if it found out about fraud clicks.
(DIR) Post #2926484 by sophia@glitterkitten.co.uk
2019-01-13T10:48:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@inditoot yeah that's the point @kaniini is making re: a toot I redrafted I believe. I'm fumbling on words a bit
(DIR) Post #2926556 by sophia@glitterkitten.co.uk
2019-01-13T10:52:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@inditoot mining crypto is an ecological disaster
(DIR) Post #2930047 by thatbrickster@shitposter.club
2019-01-13T14:10:54.522956Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia I've recently given Brave a second chance after they finally ditched their Electron/Muon codebase. In your opinion, is the model they propose a better fit for web revenue?
(DIR) Post #2934454 by inditoot@inditoot.com
2019-01-13T16:38:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia Well its an Great alternative to ads free Internet
(DIR) Post #2934645 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-13T06:53:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 2) your comment severely understates the benefits of #AdBlockers. My laptop used to crash *constantly* until I installed #NoScript. Had I not been using an adblocker, the web would have been completely unusable for me.@pootz @sophia
(DIR) Post #2934646 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-13T06:55:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 3) advertising is and has always been a dodgy way to fund anything. Chomsky and Herman's book #ManufacturingConsent (and the documentary of the same name) explained that in detail back in 1988, before the web was invented. I agree with #AdBusters that anything we can do to disrupt the ad business is a legitimate and necessary form of activism.@pootz @sophia
(DIR) Post #2934647 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-13T07:50:01Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@strypey ... am more and more unhappy with these things turning into a culture of free(charge) mindless consumption by an increasingly large crowd on the internet which doesn't hesitate throwing in €1k for the latest iPhone but starts feeling cheated on and abused as soon as an independent web site asks for €2/month to keep their servers running. We are in a dire need to get that re-balanced somehow.@pootz @sophia
(DIR) Post #2934648 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-13T13:55:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 I agree that we need more experiments in funding online services. Especially when FB is estimated to cost about US$1/per/year. But:1) making the world's knowledge available gratis, to anyone who wants to learn from it, is one of the most incredible achievements of our civilization. Not a pathology to be cured.2) Wikipedia continues to prove that its possible to provide free access to a *very* heavily used website without putting up a paywall or using ads ...@pootz
(DIR) Post #2934649 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-13T14:00:16Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 3) web hosting doesn't cost as much as people seem to think. In the early 2000s #Indymedia sites paid about $100 a year for hosting, and In 2013, you could get hosting for a year for less than US$100: http://static.pinboard.in/prosperity_cloud.htmThat's twenty espresso coffees or beers at US$5 each. Businesses will those kinds of overheads have no excuse for #DataFarming their visitors. It happens to increase returns for #VultureCapitalists and corporate shareholders. @pootz
(DIR) Post #2939440 by kaniini@pleroma.site
2019-01-13T19:39:59.189225Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sophia @inditoot basically yes. brands will filter the traffic out, Google will use it as a reason to kick publishers off (and keep all money), mom and pop trying to buy ads for their flower shop get burned.no opposition toward costing brands money but messing with a small business is unethical
(DIR) Post #2949527 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-13T16:14:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey Hmmm. Not sure. I agree with your example but they seem way too black/white for my tastes. Not everyone who tries to utilize some "pay"-per-use model for getting (some) funding for an online service from its users is necessarily a vulture capitalist. Likewise, I refuse to see people browsing YouTube or similar sites for early "rips" of the latest blockbuster movie or the latest chartbreaker album to ... @pootz
(DIR) Post #2949528 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-14T02:46:19Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 I think we're talking past each other. I'm objecting to web ads and tracking. I have no problem with charging users for premium services, like #Pinboard.in, the new #FlickR, #Loomio, and so on. Also Vulture Capitalists are the people who use capital as a tool to extract value from online service companies, as described by #DougRushkoff in his #ThrowingRocks book, not the people running the services.@pootz
(DIR) Post #2949615 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-13T16:17:19Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@strypey ... even remotely be interested in free knowledge for the benefit of mankind. That's my only real objection here - though valid for privacy issues or technical self defense, from a funding point of view ad blockers seem like fighting the smoke so it's possible to ignore the fire and make it someone elses problem. I don't think that's a good way to handle it.@pootz
(DIR) Post #2949616 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-14T02:51:34Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 Isn't that a bit like saying that using condoms is ignoring the smoke of sexually transmitted diseases, and make fighting those diseases someone else's problem? Free access to music, movies, and other cultural works is definitely parts of the benefits the net has brought humanity. We agree that new funding models are needed, but we're not going to agree that the legacy media industries have the moral high ground here. @pootz
(DIR) Post #2956230 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T07:33:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey ... that make art, movies, music, books possible to be created in a "free" way. An author, a musician, a movie maker *must* be able to afford doing so, creating "free" (libre/gratis) content should not be a luxury you have to be able to afford. I don't like the current media industry at all, for more reasons than I could elaborate, but I don't like the approach of trying to fix this from a "consumer" side entirely. 😉 @pootz
(DIR) Post #2956231 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-14T07:37:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 > I don't like the approach of trying to fix this from a "consumer" side Agreed. Which is why guilt-tripping people about the necessary self-defence practice of using an #Adblocker is a) mean, and b) misses the point.@pootz
(DIR) Post #2956232 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T07:40:09Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@strypey "Guilt-tripping"? Now you missed my point entirely. I'm not trying to guilt-trip anyone into anything. All I was basically trying, ever since starting this thread, was suggesting that, rather than using ad-blockers on sites they don't like, people should spend way more effort/time/money on supporting and using sites, news sources, ... that actually align with ethics and values they accept. @pootz
(DIR) Post #2956239 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-14T07:54:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 @strypey @pootz Which is part of what I'm encourage with my recommended sites.
(DIR) Post #2956271 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T07:38:58Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@strypey ... pages that matter to them in order to figure out what funding alternatives would be there and if they are willing to experiment. Not even talking (again) about conscious effort on choosing other sites and providers that align with your ethics and ideas, rather than keeping on using what you use now without second thought and use an ad blocker on that. 😉 @pootz
(DIR) Post #2956280 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T07:30:36Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@strypey We're on the same page but different levels here. To take your example and put it where I am looking at: Sure using a condom to protect yourself from STDs is good. But how about using a condom while being with a prostitute (who for sure has STDs from being forced by life circumstances to work in this "job") without bothering or caring how she got those? Sure, it's possible, but it's mere consumerism. Same for having "free access" to music, movies and books: Of *course* the ...@pootz
(DIR) Post #2956339 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T07:59:50Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@alcinnz Yes. Maybe it would be an interesting community project: Provide something such as a "find ethical alternatives" browser plugin for mainstream browsers that, whichever page you are on, gives you a quick, user-curated list of pages that provide a similar service yet are not ad- or tracking backed?@strypey @pootz
(DIR) Post #2957795 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-14T09:07:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 @strypey @pootz So far what I've got is a list of websites at http://recommendations.adrian.geek.nz/ | https://github.com/alcinnz/Odysseus-recommendationsAnd the web browser I'm developing, Odysseus, will download a localized version of these on first start to give you another way to get started surfing the web.
(DIR) Post #2969181 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-14T07:55:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 this:https://social.tchncs.de/@z428/101405603436067198... is guilt-tripping. If the cap fits ...@pootz
(DIR) Post #2969182 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T07:58:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey Guilt-tripping == suggesting people not to use sites they ethically condemn, which basically is what I asked in there? Sorry, but either we're completely talking past each other, or you completely lost me here.@pootz
(DIR) Post #2969183 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-14T15:03:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 yeah, I think the disconnect is expressed in the bit where you described the way you see people use the net. You do understand the different between the net and the web, right? Not being patronizing, genuine question. Because we will continue to talk past each other if this distinction isn't clear.
(DIR) Post #2969184 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T15:10:46Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@strypey Of course I do. And I also know, in there, how *I* would like to see things to be. But pretty often, the last two decades and increasingly much more so the last, like, five or six years, the difference between how I perceive things and how a majority of people around me outside the "techie" or FLOSS or privacy community sees things has become bigger and worse. From a semi-"activist" point of view, dealing with this gap in understanding seems absolutely crucial if we ...
(DIR) Post #2969185 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-14T15:14:47Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 ok, it's just that when I talked about how people actually use the web, you described a bunch of ways you see people use the web, many of which actually involve apps, not the web. Even the ones that can still be used via websites (eg FB), tend more to be used the way you described when people use them via an app on a mobile device. That's not the situation in which people mostly use adblockers.
(DIR) Post #2969186 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T15:28:18Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@strypey Most of my end-users indeed are people who are using both laptops and mobile devices, but by far the vast majority of them indeed has been "socialized" for online usage on mobile devices. They *do* use desktop browsers but essentially they are the kind of people who enter "facebook" in their browser address bar, end up with a google search for "facebook" and click the first search result.... 😟
(DIR) Post #2969412 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-14T17:07:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 @strypey Sigh. I've been called a luddite before, which really confuses those people.They don't see how I can be so into technology and still see much of it as pointless or worse dangerous. Rather than exciting exciting just because it's software.
(DIR) Post #2969736 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-14T14:54:12Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 cool idea. Switching.social could be one possible data source for a "find ethical replacements" browser plug-in. @switchingsocial @alcinnz @pootz
(DIR) Post #2972315 by stevenroose@fosstodon.org
2019-01-14T18:33:29Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 @alcinnz @strypey @pootz I tend to use alternativeto.net and have the open-source filter on. Works quite great.
(DIR) Post #2973921 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T19:27:51Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@alcinnz I think the latter is a matter of knowledge and experience. We know way more than average or even new users. And on the other side, I think in many situations we have difficulties in seeing the possibilities provided by certain pieces of software if you leave aspects such as privacy, software freedom, ... aside for a moment and "just" look at mere functionality. I've been using imaging (drawing, photo manipulation) software on a friends iPad Pro a while ago, and ...@strypey
(DIR) Post #2973994 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-14T19:30:23Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@alcinnz ... while I could go on for ages outlining why I never would use Apple technology as my daily driver, boy I *have* to say that, by choosing software that is Libre and respects my privacy, I am not even remotely close to the set of features (or even usability and accessibility) of the tools available on the iPad Pro all along with that pen input. It's like the price for choosing freedom and privacy is, feature- and usability-wise, falling back to the early 2000s at least. @strypey
(DIR) Post #2985448 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T02:46:48Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@z428 > It's like the price for choosing freedom and privacy is, feature- and usability-wise, falling back to the early 2000s at least. That's certainly the perception, but I really don't think it's the reality, at least not anymore. For example, I got a Windows 7 laptop for $50. It had a drawing pen, which worked fine when I put #Mint on it. AFAIK there's nothing an #iThing can do that I couldn't do on that laptop.@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #2985456 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T02:50:22Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@stevenroose the only problem I find with alternativeto.net is that the lists it generates are not curated. So there's a lot of time wasted in testing 10 things to find the 2-3 that work well. What I like about sites like switching.social and fediverse.party, and #AwesomeLists, and stuff like that, is the *curation* that reduces avoidable testing time and frustration for end users.@z428 @alcinnz @pootz
(DIR) Post #2987332 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T03:08:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@z428 sometimes when I'm trying to help people with their computer issues, I say something about the browser, and they look at me quizzically and say "what's a browser?" ;-P
(DIR) Post #2987333 by noorul@s.noorul.xyz
2019-01-15T04:28:41.940906Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Yes,What's a browser, Strypey ?@strypey @z428
(DIR) Post #2987807 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T04:53:51Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@noorul a browser is an animal that likes to "glean leaves, bark, and green stems from plants ..." ;-Phttp://www.animalbehavioronline.com/deerinsnow.html@z428
(DIR) Post #2987821 by noorul@s.noorul.xyz
2019-01-15T04:58:32.979779Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
😅@strypey
(DIR) Post #2990327 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T07:01:00Z
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@strypey ... usability point of view, talking about how the applications working with the pen are designed, how they interact with each other, ... . That doesn't seem "just" a problem to this target group by the way (think I posted this before already): https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/31714.html ... 😐 @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #2990328 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-15T07:19:25Z
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@z428 @strypey I find everything to be very nicely integrated and polished as long as I stick to elementary-specific apps.Though when I looked into it, must of the same integration points they use are also available on just about any distro. Too many of our apps don't use them.
(DIR) Post #2990386 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T07:23:08Z
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@alcinnz Already noticed you're committed to elementaryos. May I ask why that focus? I like elementary in some aspects, but I'm still unsure why to prefer it to, say, an up-to-date GNOME.@strypey
(DIR) Post #2990392 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T07:02:12Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@strypey Yes. Right these. Or the kind of people saying "no I don't have internet on my smartphone" because they don't use "Chrome" or "E-Mail" but rather just "Facebook" and "WhatsApp". That's a difficult challenge to face or even master. 😉
(DIR) Post #2990462 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-15T07:27:07Z
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@z428 @strypey I just started using it and it felt perfect for me.I had problems with GNOME3's design at the time but I believe those have been fixed now.
(DIR) Post #2990623 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T07:31:24Z
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@alcinnz I see, thanks for the feedback. 🙂 Currently running it on my home desktop which I don't use that much however; like its appearance and some of its philosophy but miss some things I want on my working laptop (which is running #Pop!_OS right now). @strypey
(DIR) Post #2992646 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T09:00:13Z
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@z428 well, there's basically two approaches. 1) assume that people are sheep, and try to work around their irresolvable ignorance, 2) take every opportunity to educate people about geek jargon, and the infostructure of the net. This includes doing one's best to use the correct terms for things, and being willing to explain them in whatever detail is requested. I sympathize with option 1), but I tend to go with option 2) ;-)
(DIR) Post #3004431 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T07:12:42Z
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@z428 right, but you're not really describing *software* problems, so much as hardware/ software *configuration problems, which are a lot more complicated to fix. I suspect it's possible to build a device like what you describe with existing tech; generic tablet hardware from Shenzhen, #PureOS, and touchscreen versions of #GIMP, #Inkscape etc. But how would you get it into designers' hands? @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3004432 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T07:16:35Z
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@z428 Apple has a massive marketing budget and supply chain, which they use to make sure iThings continue to be *perceived* as the go-to tool for hipster "creatives", regardless of their actual technical merits (or lack thereof), and that they are always in people's faces. This is what we're up against. The remaining technical problems can be easily solved if we can solve the perception and supply problems.@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3004433 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T07:22:19Z
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@strypey ... components one actually could build a final product from, but few people actually does. Dark as it sounds, I think in some way it actually boils down to the "no merchantibility or fitness for a particular purpose" thing in the GPL: As a developer, that's fine. As an end user however, I surely *do* want a tool that fits *my* particular purpose. We're great at building tools but we're doing way less good when it comes to the "last mile" of providing users with that.@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3004434 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T15:05:30Z
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@z428 yeah, I agree with this. I think it's a result of our history. When the GNU Project started, nobody but hackers were going to use a libre UNIX. Until people started getting the net it wasn't practical to use much third-party software, and until broadband, it wasn't practical to download an OS. Mainstream use of computers by non-geeks happened *really* fast around the early 2000s, and free code development is still catch up with the implications of non-hacker end users. @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3004435 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T15:09:34Z
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@z428 the #GNU Project/ #FSF vision was that learning to read and write code was the computer equivalent of mass literacy. That vision survives in things like #DougRuskoff's book 'Program or Be Programmed'. I'd love to see everyone have the opportunity to learn as least basic coding. But with so much software in our lives, even experienced engineers can't read and understand all the code in all the software they use. We are all #EndUsers of something, #UX design has to deal with that.@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3004888 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T09:53:05Z
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@strypey I *actually* prefer a middle-ground approach, here, which mostly includes the fact that most of the "sheep" are total experts in fields in which I am a total idiot by myself, so I usually try to find a good "middle ground" in jargon and concepts that is a *bit* more technical than John Doe terminology yet way more "abstract" than actual geek jargon. *Mostly* this works, but of course there are situations where it doesn't. 😉
(DIR) Post #3004889 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-15T14:55:57Z
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@z428 fair enough. In my experience the main barrier is the aura of mystification that proprietary technology companies (of all sorts) have erected around their tech, to protect themselves from #DIY competition (eg home repairs competing with new sales). People get tricked into believing it's too complex for a non-specialist to understand (mostly it isn't), so they don't try. My #1 tactic is just encouraging people to keep trying. Also I like to use colourful analogies with everyday objects
(DIR) Post #3004890 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T15:03:26Z
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@strypey ... for managing early digital and scanned images, and I had, for whichever reasons, installed an image gallery (xv or something like that) and an image processing application (early Gimp). I was totally stunned and spend an incredible amount of time explaining to her that both applications actually can process the images once they are stored on the *computer* and that by no means any of the images is stored *inside the gallery application*. That was an odd moment, because ...
(DIR) Post #3004900 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T15:01:23Z
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@strypey While I generally agree with this, I'm always pretty uneasy making such assumptions, mostly because I'm so extremely deep into all these things that in many cases I totally fail to see "complexity" and whether something is "complex" just because it's been subject to artificial mystification - or whether something is complex because it doesn't only require learning but also a very special method of "thinking". I remember very well, ages ago, explaining my girl to use a computer ...
(DIR) Post #3007588 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T19:29:15Z
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@strypey ... communication by accelerating it, changing who wins in selling products with online "proxies" such as Amazon, and all these aspects. This is important, but I have given up on the idea everyone should be able to program, for two reasons: At first, I take my father as an example. He holds a degree in infotech, used to build FM and short-wave receivers, amplifiers, that kind of stuff ever since his days of youth. And he always considered this skills ... @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3007614 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T19:32:41Z
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@strypey ... to learn all anew. Not sure how far I would get in programming if I didn't have these skills to some degree. Reason (2), however: I still sort of adhere to ESRs "hacker ethics" and the fundamental idea to stand upon the shoulder of giants, to not solve again problems that already have been solved. I wonder if this goes well with the idea that everyone is able to write code, as indeed it would require a whole load of people to dig through increasing amounts of ... @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3007775 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-15T19:37:57Z
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@strypey ... ever since the mid-1990s but at the very least after listening and talking to RMS in Sao Paulo in the early 2000s) need somehow to be "ported" to how computing and computer users are like in the 2010s? Not really sure. But I see a lot of challenges to resolve, a lot of challenges I am unsure the #GPL or the #SoftwareLibre movement has means to address - just taking about "operations", about actually running software as an incredibly important part of the game...?@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3060699 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-16T18:39:36Z
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@z428 yeah I'm more interested in learning #devOps / #userOps skills than extending my coding skills in an engineering direction. I think we need far more server farmers than we need engineers. But even doing server farming requires at least a basic knowledge of #Bash, and probably always will. Designing good UI needs coding too (HTML/CSS is code!). Coding has many uses other than back-end software engineering. @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3060700 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-17T09:09:46Z
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@strypey ... less "eventual" after adopting scripting or solutions such as #puppet for "programming" or declaratively describing infrastructure. Then again, no matter whether talking about #DevOps or #webdesign, it sometimes looks all like, given that most of the communication is driven by people who fancy programming and writing code, a lot of people forget about one essential optimization: Reduce complexity by increasing the amount of code not written. 😉 Maybe end-users writing ...@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3060706 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-17T09:11:57Z
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@strypey ... code could even work out, maybe with way less friction than we see now. We just possibly need to get away from the idea of an end-user learning Java(-Script), Rust, Python or something the like - and instead focus more on both domain-specific languages and maybe also programming paradigms and environments that cater to this group. Maybe a classical tiered architecture is something way harder to explain to an end user than, in example, something ...@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3071993 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-17T09:13:37Z
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@strypey ... like a #NakedObjects pattern. Maybe we need to think more "programming from a non-programmer perspective" to move this forth. 😉 @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3071994 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-17T10:04:38Z
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@z428 I've seen quite a few friends teaching their kids basic coding using #Scratch. I imagine this would be particularly helpful for visual learners. I'm more of an aurul/ kinesthetic learner, so learning by coping code out of an eBook and hacking on it, with occasional tips from conversations with a mentor, is fine for me. Anyway, it's an example of a teaching IDEs that does more handholding than an experienced coder needs (or wants) ...@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3071995 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-17T10:08:43Z
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@z428 @alcinnz another example of the same principle is when editing tools produce code, instead of #WYSIWYG. For example, where you select a bit of text, click a 'link' button in a toolbar, and paste in a URL. In #Xinha (at least the version we use on #CoActivate) doing that produces a WYSIWYG link. In other editors, it produces a link in #MarkDown for #HTML. The user gets the handholding, but can see easy it is to create that same code themselves. Demystification is key.
(DIR) Post #3072213 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-17T10:11:40Z
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@z428 another thing I've thought about a lot is DE toolbar where every time I click a button on the GUI, there is toolbar where I can see what that does at the code level. In other words, what I would have to enter in a #Bash terminal to get the result as I got from pressing the button.https://www.coactivate.org/projects/disintermedia/towbar@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3072214 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-17T17:10:22Z
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@strypey @z428 I've been thinking of stripping the practice down to it's fundamentals and be extra clear that we don't *technically* need to add anything else. And use that to better communicate what it is we do.So in practice most of what we do is to split problems down and build up solutions. And to abstract things.And from the theory side we have data storage, conditions, loops, and I/O.
(DIR) Post #3072507 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-17T17:19:28Z
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@strypey @z428 The controversy on whether to consider HTML/CSS to be "code" is over whether the language needs to be able to be used for the engineering side of things. I'm not clear on the answer.Not that I think any less of HTML/CSS for it not providing that, in fact I think it shouldn't.
(DIR) Post #3077645 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-17T20:34:30Z
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@alcinnz I'm also extremely torn here, for several reasons, but most of all because, after all, HTML+CSS seem tools people are forced to use while they actually want to publish content. For that purpose, I whole-heartedly despise both HTML and especially CSS for being something where you can waste incredible amounts of time in order to achieve results. I want to be able to describe content and layout, not mess with different browsers ideas of CSS. 😐 @strypey
(DIR) Post #3078386 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-17T20:36:45Z
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@strypey I like this idea generally, but (looking at UI programming in example) I think this will be a pretty difficult thing. How to explain concepts such as MVC, MVVM or "objects" and "signals" to someone who has not even the slightest idea what a condition or a loop might be? This approach would seem extremely valuable if programming happens close to a "user" / "use case" level, though. @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3078429 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-17T20:38:47Z
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@strypey Yes... but that's just half the truth I guess. It's not really demystification, especially rendering markdown to HTML. Yes, this *is* some sort of language pretty easily accessible to an end user, but at the same time it just provides a subsets of the features offered by HTML, and it requires a runtime to build HTML from markdown. Not sure whether it is about demystification or just about moving the "magic" to a lower layer... 😉 @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3078672 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-17T21:13:48Z
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@z428 @strypey Interestingly TimBL didn't think people would be writing HTML by hand, and his first browser (for the NeXT) had a WYSIWYG so people didn't have to.But his second browser (for teletypes) dropped that, and so did pretty much all subsequent ones. And people found HTML easy enough to learn that they didn't bother with anything else.A pity.(Also CSS didn't exist yet)
(DIR) Post #3078818 by rick_777@cybre.space
2019-01-17T21:15:58Z
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@z428The main difference between markdown and html is that markdown is supposed to be mainly used by humans, whereas html was designed to be used (and understood) mainly by computers. Furthermore, markdown was not designed with building web documents in mind; they have completely different use cases.@strypey @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3078842 by rick_777@cybre.space
2019-01-17T21:18:42Z
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@z428 @strypey @alcinnzIn fact, you could give me an MS-DOS computer, some Pascal computer, and I could design a markdown renderer for MS-DOS; no HTML needed.
(DIR) Post #3092817 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-18T07:05:05Z
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@rick_777 Well... On a closer look, trying to catch up with this thread: It seems one of the "usual" problems, with HTML and Markdown: HTML is being used for a lot of things it was either not completely suitable (publishing that doesn't just have content but also sophisticated layout ideas) or not supposed to be used at all (rich client programming in the browser). For a lot of these use cases, it was in itself barely usable so "magic" was added in every direction: For ...@strypey @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3092833 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-18T07:09:05Z
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@rick_777 ... give up quite some control over how the results finally look. And why? Because, user-facing, we don't have a real choice: All there is is that fragile and often heavily abused construct of a web browser serving as an all-purpose tool these days. @strypey @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3104091 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-18T15:36:53Z
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@alcinnz I used #NVu (now #BlueGriffon) for a while as a WYSIWYG web page creator. Eventually I just switched to using CMS and wikis (run by other people). Now I really wish I'd stuck at it and learned #CSS, especially with the growing interest in returning to static sites. Audio books and speech>text software are really useful, but it's no substitute for knowing how to read and write.@z428
(DIR) Post #3104766 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-18T16:01:35Z
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@alcinnz From the POV of average users, anything that isn't spoken language written down, is code. Engineers can nitpick all they want about whether markup languages count as code. The only reason not to count them is elitism, wanting to keep the term "coder" as an Old Boys Club for engineers, no web designers welcome. It's an attitude I find incredibly frustrating, and one that's got me into one or two fights here with bloody-minded engineers.@z428
(DIR) Post #3107604 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-18T15:39:29Z
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@z428 have you used the #Ionic framework for making mobile apps? There's a WYSIWYG editor, and you just drop components on a page, like using a desktop publishing app. You can get in and edit the code, but for the most part you don't have to. This kind of thing is a cool way to make a ramp for ordinary people to become UI designers, then learn coding as they need it, if they want to.@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3107612 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-18T15:43:59Z
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@z428 the fundamental idea of HTML is that it allows a publisher to describe content in generic term (this is a heading, this is bold, this is a video etc), and leave the final appearance under the control of each user. #AdobeFlash and #ShockWave and various other toxic things brought in this now-common ideology that an elite of designers should be able to dictate to users how everything looks, often breaking #accessibility in the process.@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3108078 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2019-01-18T15:08:10Z
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@z428 damn my typos! That was meant to be "MarkDown *OR* HTML". The point being that the user gets a familiar workflow (#MSWord style toolbars and buttons), but pressing the button shows them something they could just type out, if they want to, to get the same result. The same principle could be applied to many things, ergo, my #TowBar proposal@alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3112238 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-18T19:16:05Z
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@strypey ... more lightweight and less complex than a full browser with a HTML and CSS renderer and a JavaScript runtime. @alcinnz
(DIR) Post #3112239 by alcinnz@floss.social
2019-01-18T19:30:42Z
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@z428 @strypey I'm ofcourse working on dropping the JS aspect, which is a huge win.I'm finding CSS has a bit to it as well, but that complexity can be better encapsulated and to a large extent it's doing a task that needs to be done anyways. Figuring out how HTML should look.
(DIR) Post #3112330 by z428@social.tchncs.de
2019-01-18T19:15:23Z
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@strypey Yes. I pretty much like that approach, same as Vaadin designer - but that's also a good example of a tool made easy by providing an incredibly *overwhelming* complexity of things that need to work together well and that can fall apart even in cases of minor issues (we're running a cross-platform mobile app on top of ionic which isn't always fun). My "idea" (hope/...) would be to have something like that, as well as a "runtime", "browser", ... for it, which is *considerably*...@alcinnz