Post 2773285 by uranther@cybre.space
(DIR) More posts by uranther@cybre.space
(DIR) Post #2747552 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:15:11Z
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I've said it before, I'll say again.The fediverse has the *worst* takes on bitcoin, as they are indistinguishable from the FUD pushed by mainstream media.I find this especially disappointing, frustrating, infuriating coming from people who I otherwise consider intelligent and progressive.Do you want to destroy capitalism? yes? HOW ABOUT BURNING THE INSTITUTION OF MONEY! :thinking_fire: Afraid to engage with global institutional lies? Go ahead and prove yourself a coward and a bigot by blocking me.
(DIR) Post #2747615 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T21:17:56.744223Z
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@uranther i think bitcoin is the worst take on bitcoin
(DIR) Post #2747642 by feonixrift@hackers.town
2019-01-07T21:18:42Z
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@urantherI'm convinced we can do better than proof-of-work via extremely high energy consumption, without abandoning distributed ledgers. This shouldn't be a strong dichotomy.
(DIR) Post #2747646 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:18:45Z
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@feld funny. but at least you weren't afraid to send toot.
(DIR) Post #2747678 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:19:58Z
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@feonixrift It maybe possible. But proof of work and proof of burn are the only viable methods we have found so far to ensure immutability.
(DIR) Post #2747691 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:20:21Z
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@uranther I fail to see how bitcoin is destroying the institution of money, because as I'm aware of it, it is itself a form of money.I've mostly been unimpressed by bitcoin because it seems like just another thing for rich assholes to speculate on or mine with expensive hardware and tons of electric power, and while its international exchangability is certainly apparent, it still feels an awful lot like a bubble.
(DIR) Post #2747845 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:25:58Z
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@diodelass You're missing the point. All I am saying is this: consider how money is created today. Now consider how it was created in the past. Now consider how bitcoin achieves money creation.I know this takes research into something we take for granted. Then it requires skipping the FUD and finding this website (https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/) to read about how and why it is possible.
(DIR) Post #2747868 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T21:26:52.569512Z
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@uranther if it was to replace Visa alone it would have to handle ~52,606,519,200 transactions per year.Bitcoin is shit. The blockchain is not designed for that scale.
(DIR) Post #2747928 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:29:03Z
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@feld It's not really meant for that use case. That is what the Lightning network is for, which is a trustless layer on top of bitcoin.You can just ignore Vitalik's sensationalism about achieving VISA speeds on Ethereum. Theirs is a completely different architecture and use case anyway.
(DIR) Post #2747954 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T21:30:09.599755Z
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@uranther what's your solution to guarantee nobody takes over 50% of the network and uses modified software to forge transactions on the ledger and steal all the money?
(DIR) Post #2748060 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:33:42Z
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@feld You could not possibly buy enough hardware to overtake the bitcoin network today, as there is simply not enough supply. It would mean competing with and overtaking all the legitimate miners who have been amassing hardware for years.And no, cartels of miners are not going to form in order to destroy their own investments. That is just game theory.
(DIR) Post #2748070 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T21:34:14.149402Z
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@uranther hahahahaha you've never met the Chinese before have you?
(DIR) Post #2748105 by bonzoesc@m.bonzoesc.net
2019-01-07T21:33:06Z
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@feld @uranther bitcoin won't destroy capitalism, it neatly encapsulates so many of the problems of capitalismthe best ways to get bitcoins are stealing them or stealing computer time from the unsuspectingbeing born rich is the best way to thrive under capitalism, and in bitcoins it's either "mine a whole bunch several years ago when that was actually doable and cash out" or "be a winklevoss and get lucky with VC money"
(DIR) Post #2748106 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:35:18Z
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@bonzoesc @feld If you think "cashing out" is in the equation, then you are missing the point.
(DIR) Post #2748132 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T21:36:21.231184Z
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@uranther @bonzoesc I think the point is that it doesn't scale and it uses a morally obscene amount of electricity to do nothing useful
(DIR) Post #2748143 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:36:35Z
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@uranther okay, so money now is paper that a government has stamped with its seal and declared an official medium of value.money in the past consisted of either universally valued materials, such as gold, or eventually, papers representing certain quantities of such materials.Bitcoin strikes me as being similar to the latter case, because rather than being endowed with value by some central authority, it's a representation of a univerally-valued motive, (cont)
(DIR) Post #2748165 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:37:18Z
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@feld From which news network did you adopt that opinion?
(DIR) Post #2748304 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:38:17Z
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@uranther in this case computational work instead of gold.How is bitcoin fundamentally different from gold in that respect?
(DIR) Post #2748305 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:41:18Z
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@diodelass You're getting there!We don't know how much gold exists on Earth, and a potentially unlimited amount exists in extraterrestrial objects, making it unsuitable for a stable money supply.Bitcoin defeats the deflationary money paradox by being infinitely divisible, unlike physical nuggets of gold.But you missed the part where the government is not the party creating the money.
(DIR) Post #2748338 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:42:50Z
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@diodelass The obvious problem to using paper to represent an amount of gold is that you cannot trust the issuer (the bank) to actually have that much gold, nor can you independently verify it.If they spend all the gold before you cash in your coupons, well then, you never really had the money then did you?
(DIR) Post #2748365 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T21:43:48.345189Z
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@uranther which page of the BitCoin Defender Script are you on? I think we are not in sync anymore
(DIR) Post #2748424 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:46:21Z
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@feld I'm on the page where I'm fed up with FUD.(get it :blobwoah: - Fed up? :arthurfist: )
(DIR) Post #2748442 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T21:47:13.054891Z
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@uranther seriously, what chapter are you at in Atlas Shrugged?
(DIR) Post #2748469 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:48:00Z
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@feld I appreciate you and I don't block people who disagree with me.
(DIR) Post #2748496 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:44:19Z
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@uranther assuming that it's not different from gold, and bitcoin represents a modern attempt to return to a gold-standard-like system in order to facilitiate extra-governmental commerce, then here are the implications I see:1. most of the vitriol directed at bitcoin has nothing to do with the medium itself, just with the "gold rush" that appears to be ongoing in the last few years.
(DIR) Post #2748497 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:47:05Z
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@uranther 2. if history is to be our model, we're now in our "wild west" era of bitcoin, with no particular regulation on obtaining or trading the gold, and lots of instability in both the value of gold and the liquidity of it.3. bitcoin is really just a new magic substance we found which isa) valuableb) easy to test for authenticityc) limited in supplyd) favorable for use as money for a myriad other reasons, including its noncorporeal and therefore rapidly transmissible nature
(DIR) Post #2748498 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:48:27Z
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@uranther so then my question is: why will this go any differently than gold did? Why won't governments sweep in and take over the show? Do Bitcoin's characteristics really stop them from doing that, or is it just a matter of time before they establish the means to do that, just like it was back in the gold-trading days?
(DIR) Post #2748501 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T21:49:07.662076Z
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@uranther you'd have fewer disagreements if you read more books
(DIR) Post #2748599 by feonixrift@hackers.town
2019-01-07T21:52:56Z
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@urantherThis is a huge catch for me, as contributing to future-pocalypse 2020 planet flambe edition is not my idea of a stable forward-looking economic model.
(DIR) Post #2748647 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:54:50Z
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@diodelass good questions!The govt can't control a decentralized network of independent developers, miners and users in the same way it can control (or rather, be controlled by) a central bank.There are serious concerns about the lack of privacy in bitcoin transactions which allows greater economic surveillance than the govt ever thought possible.The answer is "we're working on that" in the form of Lightning, and other confidential transaction features. Then there is Monero.
(DIR) Post #2748721 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T21:56:25Z
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@uranther @feld :ThisTBH:
(DIR) Post #2748798 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T21:52:54Z
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@diodelass @uranther Governments could shut down the show pretty easily - Bluecoat's had block-rules in its database since 2012, and their turnaround time on generating blockrules for new protocols (like other cryptocurrencies) is inside of 30 seconds.In theory, a government could mount a 51% attack, but the three biggest mining concerns in China beat them to the punch a few years ago. The only reason they haven't colluded yet to do this is probably because they can't be arsed to just yet.
(DIR) Post #2748799 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:59:04Z
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@drwho @diodelass I - and others far more qualified than me - seriously doubt that possibility.See my answer here: https://cybre.space/@uranther/101377430135058506One conspiracy theory is that Bitcoin Cash was a coordinated attack against Bitcoin by the Chinese govt. The evidence is pretty damning, anyway. And it didn't work.If govts ban bitcoin, then they are in deeper shit than they expect, potentially causing further devaluation of their national currency.
(DIR) Post #2748885 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:03:14Z
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@feonixrift What many people seem miss is that the energy consumption is not monotonically increasing ad infinitum. There is metastability of the network's hashpower, and it is more closely related to demand than to supply.Another thing to consider is that so called experts as in the IEEE like to pretend they can measure and calculate the energy consumption, when 1) they cannot do so accurately and 2) it is incommensurate with other processes we don't measure the energy consumption of.
(DIR) Post #2748890 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T22:03:34Z
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@uranther @diodelass I respectfully disagree. I worked with them for a couple of years. Governments are way behind the curve of mounting a 51% attack against Bitcoin because the Chinese mining cartels could make it happen before the equipment PO's got all the signatures in place.It totally isn't an attack against Bitcoin. The folks who started that project are CONUS and, as far as I know, still on the cryptocurrency conference circuit. It's still possible to hang out with them.
(DIR) Post #2748934 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T21:56:07Z
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@feld @uranther Deliberately. Every time someone tries, they get hunted down, DDoS'd, et al.
(DIR) Post #2748935 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:05:35Z
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@drwho @feld Oh, they will try... It will be similar to:First they ignore youThen laugh at you, and hate youThen they fight youThen you win.See also: the 5 stages of grief.
(DIR) Post #2748958 by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-01-07T22:06:31.621898Z
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@uranther @drwho measles is more popular than bitcoin
(DIR) Post #2748965 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T21:57:51Z
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@feld @uranther I've had chance to meet with one of the Chinese miners in a previous life. They really don't care about game theory in the cryptocurrency space. It was all "We know what our options are and we have plans."
(DIR) Post #2748966 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:07:04Z
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@drwho @feld And there are contingency plans for such attacks, if they are foolish enough to execute them.
(DIR) Post #2748970 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:07:07Z
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@uranther @feonixrift yeah, I'm sure when compared to air travel, or coal mining, or cattle farming, bitcoin's environmental impact is practically nothing. The popular headlines about it hinge on the unstated assumption that Bitcoin is frivolous Monopoly money, which it demonstrably is not (in that you can actually buy things with it). That being said, the gold rush is dumb. I'll be happy when people stop getting the idea that buying GPUs is a way to get rich quick.
(DIR) Post #2748973 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-01-07T22:07:25Z
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@drwho @feld @uranther probably people who don't like money will especially not like the hypermoney that is bitcoin. people who do like money seem to like bitcoin
(DIR) Post #2748995 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T22:08:09Z
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@uranther @feld There's no shortage of people who try to get transaction velocity parity with the Visa network. There is also no shortage of people who consider such attempts heretical.
(DIR) Post #2749005 by sean@social.deadsuperhero.com
2019-01-07T22:08:40.774981Z
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@uranther unfortunately, Bitcoin is not likely to destroy financial institutions. If anything, financial institutions of a different form are already embracing it and capitalizing on access and ease of use, and currently the market largely treats altcoins as a vehicle of investment rather than a currency in its own right.You can, of course, forgo such institutions and try to just do mining by yourself, but the dedicated hardware sector of the altcoin economy has largely initiated an arms race, the nature of which increases the mining complexity every time individuals bring new mining horsepower to the table. It's expensive to start, and individuals who buy in since 2013 typically don't get much of a return on their investments.The cryptocurrency space is loud and crowded, with self-branded experts who try to evangelize the blockchain and the supposed myriad of uses it has. To date, relatively few of those use-cases actually outperform the original technologies it was meant to replace. It's a lousy system for decentralized communications, where every interaction within the chain must be downloaded and shared between all participants. In many situations, it is unwieldy and difficult to scale. For the most part, the entities that benefit most from it are entities with enough financial means to make significant investments.This isn't too say that it's completely useless, or that cryptocurrency itself is bad. But there are many asterisks attached to a technology that is largely overhyped, and it has largely stolen the focus on decentralization away from projects that actually better fit in to the term.
(DIR) Post #2749007 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T22:08:47Z
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@uranther @feld Do you mean the Big Three deciding to pull the trigger on a 51% attack?
(DIR) Post #2749015 by feonixrift@hackers.town
2019-01-07T22:08:50Z
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@urantherIf it can level off even asymptotically and dependently there can be real discussion (eventually) about what percentage of renewable supply it constitutes and the viability thereof. I'd be satisfied with that.
(DIR) Post #2749054 by bonzoesc@m.bonzoesc.net
2019-01-07T22:10:27Z
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@uranther @feld that may've been meant as shorthand for "exchange it for goods and services;" everyone's either afraid to do that because of how deflationary bitcoin was until a year ago or reluctant to do so because it's been down since they bought inand I'm saying this as someone who got spectacularly lucky with bit coins
(DIR) Post #2749055 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:10:39Z
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@feonixrift Yes, and since there's an economic incentive to find cheaper and cheaper energy, it naturally leads miners to use hydroelectric or other renewable supplies.
(DIR) Post #2749074 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-01-07T22:11:41Z
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@diodelass @uranther @drwho I think a crucial missing piece of context to this conversation is that "the gold-trading days" were from about 250 BC until 1974 A.D., i.e. about 2200 years, while "governments sweep in and take over the show" has been an occasional regional phenomenon during that time; the current worldwide non-gold-trading days only go back 44 years. What happens now is anybody's guess.
(DIR) Post #2749126 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T22:13:18Z
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@kragen @diodelass @uranther When in doubt, look at who has the first mover advantage in a given field.
(DIR) Post #2749144 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-01-07T22:14:18Z
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@diodelass @uranther @drwho That is, what Ellie suggests is totally possible. But it's far from certain.
(DIR) Post #2749185 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T21:57:19Z
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@drwho @uranther so if it does start to achieve its stated goal of taking commerce out of the hands of governments - a very dangerous proposition to said governments - then don't we expected them to start to come down on it?I'm far from chalking up cryptocurrency as a complete triviality at this point, but I'm also a long way from wanting to throw myself into the middle of it. It looks liable to end badly from over here.
(DIR) Post #2749186 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T22:01:17Z
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@diodelass @uranther Depends on the government. The Chinese government did when they found out that some Party members were using it to move money out of China. I don't know exactly what deals were cut, but they put a stop to that pretty fast, and the folks who were doing it were brought to heel in no uncertain terms. Then I changed jobs and got as far away as I could.From my limited contact with them, the US government just cares that they get tax money that comes from sale of cryptocurrency. They're treating this just like other rich-people stuff.I strongly suggest not getting involved in the community. It's... wild, not fun, and scary.
(DIR) Post #2749187 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:03:14Z
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@drwho @uranther yeah, that's the impression I got. Regardless of my feelings on the viability of the medium, I want nothing more to do with the "bitcoin community" than I would with the "gold community" really.
(DIR) Post #2749188 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:15:10Z
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@diodelass @drwho It would be incredibly stupid of govts to ban bitcoin because they will be excluding themselves from an entire alternate economy.All it takes is your employer to pay you in bitcoin, and your landlord (hopefully not) to accept bitcoin, and then there will be little need for other forms of currency.As long as the govt gets their tax revenue, they should be indifferent (but we all know it's more complicated than that). Ohio is already accepting business taxes in bitcoin.
(DIR) Post #2749281 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:18:13Z
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@diodelass @feonixrift @drwho I'm not disputing the ridiculous and frankly pathetic behavior of the lambo squad. It's just not a valid reason to ignore a technology that rivals the Internet in importance.
(DIR) Post #2749321 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:19:19Z
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@kragen @drwho @feld I'll argue that it won't matter what you like. The economic reality will set in either way.
(DIR) Post #2749409 by lesbianhacker@mastodon.social
2019-01-07T22:22:21Z
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@urantherWhat takes does The Fediverse have on BitCoin?I can't tell if this thread is ironically praising BitCoin or not, but @feld is correct about BitCoin being garbage, and it's garbage for a lot more reasons.I agree that we should abolish money, too, although I'm not sure how supporting BitCoin does that.
(DIR) Post #2749497 by revolverocelot@elekk.xyz
2019-01-07T22:25:47Z
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@uranther Bitcoin is like people drew their own money and then screamed about how they are destroying capitalism by fueling capitalism
(DIR) Post #2749529 by abby@lgbtq.cool
2019-01-07T22:26:50Z
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@uranther Wat? Bitcoin is just libertarian capitalism but with extra steps.
(DIR) Post #2749535 by somarasu@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:26:53Z
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@uranther The take isnt necessarily about the tech itself (i think the most consistent hottakes on actual bitcoin technology ive seen is 'blockchain is boring' but ive got no opinion on that), it's more the utter stranglehold caucasoid techbros have on it (from a 'cultural' sense). That, and how awful mining is for the environment.
(DIR) Post #2749543 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:26:51Z
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@sean I don't disagree with you there. I would just encourage people not to conflate bitcoin with blockchain.I think most altcoins will go away once bitcoin is considered more than just speculative investment by the public majority.I'm also not saying that by destroying the corrupt institution of fiat money will we automatically destroy capitalism. Just saying it would be a huge win by destroying a fundamental system of control.
(DIR) Post #2749568 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T22:27:58Z
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@uranther @kragen @feld This.
(DIR) Post #2749596 by alphakamp@pleroma.kamp.site
2019-01-07T22:28:18.602595Z
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@lesbianhacker @feld @uranther 'Bitcoin is garbage' is the new blockchain buzzword. >Money is garbageUh ok stop using it then. How is that working out for ya?
(DIR) Post #2749616 by lesbianhacker@mastodon.social
2019-01-07T22:27:40Z
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@uranther @feld Oh, nevermind, I missed like 90% of the thread.lmao, you're motivating me to finish reading Capital. BitCoin will in no way have a negative impact on "money" because it *is* money. It won't destroy capitalism, it won't even dent it.
(DIR) Post #2749617 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:29:57Z
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@lesbianhacker Well, that's your opinion...Not saying it will destroy money - just destroy another corrupt institution which capitalism relies on.Going back to a barter economy doesn't seem feasible, but that's another discussion.
(DIR) Post #2749664 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:31:22Z
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@revolverocelot Fiat money is exactly people drawing their own Monopoly money. And remember - the bank cannot run out of money. :thinking_very_hard:
(DIR) Post #2749699 by somarasu@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:31:03Z
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@uranther I think a 'perspective shift' is required; i read a book on cryptocurrency that pointed to an example usage, where an organization in the Middle East (i dont remember where exactly but it's in the book on my shelf) designed to get girls into STEM would pay in cryptocurrency, because patriarchs of households control the finances. So it offers a little bit of autonomy in the way women can control their own money.
(DIR) Post #2749743 by somarasu@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:31:15Z
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@uranther (cont) That is LEAPS AND BOUNDS more interesting than some cracker on reddit babbling about NVidia cards.
(DIR) Post #2749744 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:34:24Z
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@somarasu Yes, totally! When roughly 3 billion people are unbanked or underbanked, bitcoin vastly improves access to economic activity.
(DIR) Post #2749754 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:35:29Z
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@alphakamp @feld @lesbianhacker How is money created?The truth will set you free.
(DIR) Post #2749786 by julienxx@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-07T22:36:30Z
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@uranther sorry I just see wannabe traders going for a quick buck with all these new blockchain startups, not sure how this would make a change regarding our relation to money/capital sharing.Do not for profit blockchain initiatives exist?Also from a purely technological standpoint nodes having a copy of the blockchain is not that impressive for a distributed system.
(DIR) Post #2749797 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:36:49Z
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Hey - I appreciate everyone's input on what is a very contentious topic, and what makes me uncharacteristically confrontational.
(DIR) Post #2749826 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:38:00Z
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@julienxx Not really talking about "blockchain" here... It really is just a buzzword someone crafted out of Satoshi's "chain of blocks."
(DIR) Post #2749841 by lesbianhacker@mastodon.social
2019-01-07T22:38:34Z
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@uranther @alphakamp@pleroma.kamp.site @feld Please for the love of god read Marx's Capital. He covers money in chapter 3. He also covers why barter was replaced by money.
(DIR) Post #2749849 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:39:04Z
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@lesbianhacker @feld Thanks, it's def worth a read and not something I studied in school.
(DIR) Post #2749913 by somarasu@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:42:09Z
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@uranther Absolutely, 100%.Demystifying the concept of crypto + blockchain is super important, too. Not every one of the 3 billion people you mentioned run Arch linux (i mean they *MIGHT* but i fuckin' doubt it), so i think making the barrier to entry low as shit is also important. Primarily from a hardware perspective. Not everyone has access to the McReactors that are 'average Western households'.
(DIR) Post #2749971 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:44:17Z
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@somarasu Well, now you can send bitcoin by carrier pigeon or email if you want. And you can receive it via satellite without an internet connection.Among all the noise, there is useful and important innovation going on.
(DIR) Post #2750103 by julienxx@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-07T22:48:16Z
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@uranther honest question, isn’t BTC just the first hyped “chain of blocks”? I mean what differentiates it from all the other coins besides it’s success?
(DIR) Post #2750142 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:50:03Z
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@julienxx It's not hype. The altcoins are hype with the exception of Monero, and Zcash - maybe.The difference is its success, or rather its level of adoption. That is what makes it secure.
(DIR) Post #2750204 by b3yond@mastodon.social
2019-01-07T22:52:53Z
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@uranther 1) money is not the foundation of capitalism - the foundation of capitalism is the mode of exchanging things, thereby equalizing their value. Cryptocurrencies don't change this one bit - most of them even give more power to the rentiers.2) Have you seen https://fair-coin.org/? way better than bitcoin in terms of energy consumption, transaction speed, stability, and democratic regulation. If you want a usable and progressive coin, take #faircoin. But it neither will end #capitalism.
(DIR) Post #2750236 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-07T22:54:15Z
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@uranther No worries. 👍
(DIR) Post #2750277 by julienxx@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-07T22:55:59Z
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@uranther got it, I got interested in crypto-coins at some point but since it’s almost impossible to mine on your own nowadays I lost interest. If it becomes our new currency then so be it, this won’t change who owns the capital and how it’s splitted among us I believe
(DIR) Post #2750298 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:56:39Z
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@bonzoesc That maybe the current state. But once your employer pays you in bitcoin and you can pay your bills in bitcoin, then that changes the dynamics drastically.
(DIR) Post #2750315 by diodelass@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:09:08Z
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@uranther @feonixrift if Bitcoin is actually redundant and doesn't need to exist (which I am unqualified to say one way or another, really) then the gripes about its energy consumption are justified. But that question definitely isn't something that should be left as an unstated assumption when talking about problems with it, I would say.
(DIR) Post #2750337 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T22:58:57Z
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@diodelass @feonixrift That's a good way to put it!So those who say so are implicitly saying they are just fine with the oppressive system of fiat money and central banking.Unfortunately, I don't think they are aware of that.
(DIR) Post #2750377 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:00:57Z
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@drwho @feld At this point, I think it is more likely they are colluding to 'cash in' to bitcoin.They have a huge information asymmetry advantage and the resources and means to become a 'fast follower,' realizing it cannot buried for good.
(DIR) Post #2750574 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:10:48Z
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@julienxx I think it does flip the legacy financial system and status quo on its head.While it may not be the perfect ideal solution of everyone's fantasies, it's definitely a leap away from tyranny.
(DIR) Post #2750844 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:20:46Z
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@b3yond I've heard of it, but I've lost interest in altcoins because they are - intentionally or not - scams. If there was any innovation of note, it will eventually be incorporated into bitcoin.Part of what makes capitalism so disgusting and immoral is that *they can always print more money*. After Nixon ended the gold standard, all hell broke loose.I'm not saying that you defeat one, you defeat the other. It's just that they are so tightly related.
(DIR) Post #2751102 by rick_777@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:29:53Z
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@urantherWhat takes are those? That it's vulnerable to 51% attacks? That proof-of-work is ecologically unsustainable? That effectively, it costs more to mine bitcoin just due to the the electricity bill?If you prove that they are false, I'll be happy to learn and be ashamed.
(DIR) Post #2751122 by aeveltstra@greenpencil.social
2019-01-07T23:30:05Z
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@uranther @somarasu Bitcoin doesn't democratize money. It doesn't provide an alternative to capitalism. It's merely an alternate currency, upholding capitalism as a system, seeking to uproot other currencies, whilst profiting from the existing need for money exchange. Good projects that help empower the needy are good. Bitcoin itself is not such a project. It is but a means to an end. It can be used for good. But its main drive is profit.
(DIR) Post #2751148 by revolverocelot@elekk.xyz
2019-01-07T23:31:06Z
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@uranther that's not actually true lmao
(DIR) Post #2751182 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:32:08Z
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@revolverocelot In the game of Monopoly it is. And it's not far from the truth, since we all know the outcome of the 2008-2009 financial crisis.
(DIR) Post #2751215 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:33:38Z
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@rick_777 Yes, those ones.I can only lead the horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink.https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/ #bitcoin
(DIR) Post #2751274 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:36:25Z
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@aeveltstra @somarasu Not really saying it's an alternative to capitalism. I know - I could have phrased that a bit better.The rest of that I respectfully disagree.
(DIR) Post #2751327 by revolverocelot@elekk.xyz
2019-01-07T23:38:48Z
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@uranther you can't print endless money without destroying the economyChanging who holds power over the money doesn't fix shit, it just changes how the lower classes will be abused.
(DIR) Post #2751358 by somarasu@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:39:49Z
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@uranther @aeveltstra Bitcoin can serve as the 'teething ring' whilst trying to ween people off capitalism.
(DIR) Post #2751370 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:40:24Z
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@revolverocelot Yes, we're about to find that out (again). 🚽🌀
(DIR) Post #2751422 by revolverocelot@elekk.xyz
2019-01-07T23:41:55Z
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@uranther destroy capitalism don't just give people another coin to play with
(DIR) Post #2751431 by mattcropp@social.coop
2019-01-07T23:42:20Z
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@uranther @b3yond I see it as less an issue of the capacity to "print more money," and more about the problem of the *monopolization* of money.#BTC maximalism assumes the necessity of, and thus reproduces, the monopolistic dynamics of state money, while polycentric "competing/complementary currencies" ecosystems are far more resilient and power-dispersing.
(DIR) Post #2751445 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-07T23:43:05Z
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@revolverocelot I just wanna talk about the elephant in the room.
(DIR) Post #2751657 by mattcropp@social.coop
2019-01-07T23:53:33Z
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@uranther @lesbianhacker @feld If making a reading list, "Capital as Power: A Study in Order and Creorder", and Graeber's "Debt"...
(DIR) Post #2751806 by revolverocelot@elekk.xyz
2019-01-07T23:58:12Z
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@uranther yes the elephant that people disagree without therefore mastodon is dominated by FUD
(DIR) Post #2751813 by aeveltstra@greenpencil.social
2019-01-07T23:49:02Z
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@somarasu @uranther Maybe. One can hope. Maybe not with bitcoin specifically, due to its insistence on blockchain. Maybe with a different cryptocurrency that enforces a similar transparancy, that uses a more CPU-friendly ledger. But yes: empowering those that get suppressed by the current system is a good thing, and if cryptocurrencies can help with that, then that I find good, too.
(DIR) Post #2751814 by amsomniac@mastodon.sdf.org
2019-01-07T23:58:44Z
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@aeveltstra @somarasu @uranther there's been talk of a communist cryptocurrency on here a whileit remains to be seen whether the revolution can be tokenized
(DIR) Post #2751915 by aeveltstra@greenpencil.social
2019-01-08T00:01:48Z
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@amsomniac @somarasu @uranther That sounds like a contradictio in terminis. I'll look up the thinking behind it.
(DIR) Post #2752215 by b3yond@mastodon.social
2019-01-08T00:11:25Z
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@uranther no, it wouldn't be merged in the case of faircoin. faircoin uses proof of cooperation and is totally incompatible with bitcoin. It is not as independent as bitcoin is. Even bitcoin isn't anarchic, but rather plutocratic. the nodes decide which software is run, and they are run by rentiers themselves, who invest capital in mining to maximize their capital... why would they be interested in a coin that enables alternatives to capitalist production? The only thing they have is capital.
(DIR) Post #2753087 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T00:41:58Z
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@mattcropp @b3yond I don't really see how it reproduces the "monopolistic dynamics of state money." Can you explain what you mean by that?
(DIR) Post #2753170 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-08T00:46:12Z
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@uranther @feld That is my analysis, also. They benefit way more by getting rich (and helping the Party get rich, if only to save their own skins).Pretty much like any market - information asymmetry, and whoever has the most and best data wins.
(DIR) Post #2753178 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T00:46:34Z
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@aeveltstra @somarasu I'm not a maximalist.. I think Monero has great potential and would like to see it do great things.
(DIR) Post #2753312 by mattcropp@social.coop
2019-01-08T00:52:36Z
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@uranther @b3yond A singular, universally fungible monetary commodity is a desirable thing for a centralized state for a number of reasons. With monopoly control, the state has the power to create money and therefore re-shape the socio-economic world by spending said money.Even without monopolization, though, singular money makes the economy easily legible to the state's bureaucratic logic in a way that an ecosystem of conditionally fungible currencies is not.
(DIR) Post #2753340 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T00:54:02Z
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@b3yond Like most altcoins, the reason it hasn't been attacked yet is that no one cares enough about it. :blobshrug:What I mean is that if they have any inventions that solve real problems, they would catch the attention of cryptographers.I'll have to read into some more to say anything specific.
(DIR) Post #2753388 by b3yond@mastodon.social
2019-01-08T00:14:18Z
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@urantherotoh faircoin is at least democratic. There are assemblies, votes, and a political process. All the things current fiat money lacks. And the value is created by the community of faircoin sticking together and having a good political process, cooperation.Faircoin would never get merged to bitcoin - it isn't quantitatevly better than bitcoin for the purpose bitcoin's participants uphold it (maximization of capital). It is qualitatively better for its users (and the environment) though.
(DIR) Post #2753389 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T00:55:54Z
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@b3yond The risk is recreating another corrupt human institution. Software (FLOSS) is less corruptible than humans. That's why bitcoin is so compelling.
(DIR) Post #2753437 by revolverocelot@elekk.xyz
2019-01-08T00:57:24Z
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@uranther honestly I ain't blocking you cause I'm enjoying seeing you get dunked on
(DIR) Post #2753767 by mattcropp@social.coop
2019-01-08T01:00:16Z
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@uranther @b3yond
(DIR) Post #2753769 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T01:11:53Z
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@mattcropp @b3yond
(DIR) Post #2754173 by endomain@hackers.town
2019-01-08T01:28:28Z
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@uranther@drwho @feldI worked on a real world Bank system of record, created history's largest cross institutional voluntary transactional database, I consulted for the fastest credit card processor, and helped found Simple.Can I offer a take?
(DIR) Post #2754193 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T01:29:20Z
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@endomain @drwho @feld shoot.
(DIR) Post #2754289 by rick_777@cybre.space
2019-01-08T01:33:04Z
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@uranther"I cannot show you the door, but I can show you the way."*Gives huge maze*Um, yeah... I think I'll pass.(Sorry if I don't have the time to read every single submission in that site in the hopes that one will address my specific questions. I have a busy life, you know?)
(DIR) Post #2754314 by endomain@hackers.town
2019-01-08T01:34:06Z
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@uranther@drwho @feldBitcoin's principle value is social. From a technological standpoint it is simply a repackaging of existing ideas into a system that everyone knows cannot scale without simply replicating the structures embedded in the state-based economy. It's boring, and worse than that it gives a lot of complete idiots a platform (e.g., Craig S. Wright, professional at not knowing basic statistics).But: it reminds people that currencies are collaborative and consensual things. That's powerful.
(DIR) Post #2755518 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T02:28:27Z
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@rick_777 Here's some good ones.- Speculative Attack https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/speculative-attack/- #Hyperbitcoinization https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/hyperbitcoinization/- The #Bitcoin Central Bank's Perfect Monetary Policy https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/the-bitcoin-central-banks-perfect-monetary-policy/- End the Fed: Hoard Bitcoins https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/end-the-fed-hoard-bitcoins/- Fractional Reserve Banking is Obsolete https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/fractional-reserve-banking-is-obsolete/
(DIR) Post #2755576 by endomain@hackers.town
2019-01-08T01:36:52Z
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@uranther @drwho @feldWhat's more on the tech, we're starting to see glimpses of systems that a actually could work in the truly distributed consensus model. Those are exciting and dizzying, relying on a statistical moire pattern of consensus. Their principle challenge is they don't work until they have near universal marketshare (i.e., until sybil-like attacks are infeasible due to network topology).Sadly, the actual commerical world of Bitcoin & Eth dismiss that work out of hand.
(DIR) Post #2755661 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T02:34:40Z
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@endomain @drwho @feld UASF was huge for the community, as was defending itself against Bitcoin Cash and all the other BS ones like Ultimate, Diamond, ... So you are right about the social value, that the tech is not the only thing that makes it a force to be reckoned with.I don't see how it is replicating old structures though. That is more a criticism of other altcoin which aim to 'fix" PoW with 'governance' committees and the like.
(DIR) Post #2755674 by endomain@hackers.town
2019-01-08T01:37:52Z
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@uranther @drwho @feldI hope this take has been better than the average take you endure.
(DIR) Post #2755675 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T02:35:04Z
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@endomain @drwho @feld I appreciate your insight!
(DIR) Post #2755834 by kwarrtz@mathstodon.xyz
2019-01-08T02:34:15Z
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@somarasu @uranther The problem imo is that the hijacking is more than just cultural. The wild swings in value due to cryptocurrency becoming a hotspot for speculative investment has made it impractical as an actual currency. That isn’t a fundamental flaw with the idea of cryptocurrency, just part of what I think is handicapping its effectiveness at the moment.
(DIR) Post #2755835 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T02:39:56Z
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@kwarrtz @somarasu Not disagreeing with you re: cryptocurrency in general.But we're talking bitcoin 🦍
(DIR) Post #2755970 by rick_777@cybre.space
2019-01-08T02:45:23Z
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@urantherAh, that's different! :blobthumbsup: I'll add them to my read queue.
(DIR) Post #2756578 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-01-08T03:15:38Z
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@drwho @feld I wasn't arguing that it mattered whether people liked Bitcoin, but @uranther's original toot seemed to be expressing surprise, among other emotions, that some intelligent, progressive people don't like Bitcoin. I merely meant to offer a hypothesis about why that might be, without touching the issue of whether their opinions mattered.
(DIR) Post #2756724 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T03:22:02Z
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@kragen @drwho @feld It makes sense, and I get that about why it may be unlikable. Of course it is disgusting to hear about another monetary system that we are getting left out of. I just don't often see that as the reason given compared to the nearest FUD available.
(DIR) Post #2756855 by lesbianhacker@mastodon.social
2019-01-08T03:24:30Z
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@somarasu @uranther It's good that good things can be done with cryptocurrency. Did the patriarchs know that the cryptocurrency was currency? If they had known, would they have taken control of it?It's a bandaid, not a solution.
(DIR) Post #2756856 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T03:27:32Z
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@lesbianhacker @somarasu "blockchain" is an attempt to co-opt the technology and make it fit within the existing financial system. It's far less scary than discussing a new currency in those circles, but it won't succeed for a number of reasons.What they will end up with is another fancy, immature database that becomes another cash cow like Hadoop.
(DIR) Post #2756903 by lesbianhacker@mastodon.social
2019-01-08T03:29:00Z
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@uranther @somarasu I'm very confused, did you mean to reply to a different post?
(DIR) Post #2756969 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T03:31:58Z
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@lesbianhacker The UN and other old guard institutions are responsible for some of those 'cryptocurrency' projects trying to reach the unbanked.I'm not familiar with the one @somarasu is referring to, so I'll let him respond. (Sorry!)
(DIR) Post #2757141 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-01-08T03:37:45Z
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@uranther @drwho @feld I hear a lot of complaints about the unequal distribution of Bitcoin, and a lot of the energy complaints come from a profound hatred of abundance.The test is to see how the same people react to the prospect of abundant utility-scale photovoltaic energy: if they think it's good (in the short term, like pre-2030), they're sincerely concerned about climate change, and if they think it's bad, they're just motivated by envy and hate.
(DIR) Post #2762668 by b3yond@mastodon.social
2019-01-08T08:22:22Z
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@uranther they solve the Problem of hazardous energy consumption. Bitcoin miners don't care about that, because it's the threshold which makes it harder for their competitors to enter the market, therefore it's protecting their oligopoly.
(DIR) Post #2762690 by b3yond@mastodon.social
2019-01-08T08:23:32Z
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@uranther @mattcropp lol xD
(DIR) Post #2773285 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T16:31:16Z
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@b3yond After reading their white paper and some FAQ, Faircoin is as awful as I expected.Their design hinges on corruptible or interruptible human groups and therefore cannot be said to be politically decentralized: admins, the assembly, and developers who must provide a pre-seeded hardware device in order for someone to participate as a CVN.They explain away security hazards like, 'real identities will not be known' and 'the private key is non-retrievable.'(cont.)
(DIR) Post #2773385 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T16:35:26Z
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@b3yond Then they claim success after running for just a year!The light detail they give regarding potential security breaches is not reassuring for someone to use it for the exchange of value.What happens when all the developers or admins die? Or they lose interest and move on to other projects? They haven't proven resilience against attacks and therefore haven't invented anything new. It really does look like a cartel with cryptography sprinkled on top, good intentions aside.
(DIR) Post #2773472 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T16:38:40Z
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@b3yond What is frankly disgusting about every shitcoin is that they completely ignore the 20+ years of work and failed projects done prior to #bitcoin in order for Satoshi to find the formula that actually works (in production, against attacks, for 10 years).They fork the source code and then proceed with their wishful thinking that their coin won't get attacked (or they can bounce back easily), all while getting to create something in their image and scamming everyone to buy in.
(DIR) Post #2773529 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T16:40:32Z
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@b3yond I thought it was interesting they do mention the central banking cartel in their white paper but fail to substantiate where their coin's value comes from.I have to assume it is fiat currency, and again, someone has missed the point entirely.Maybe it useful for the small communities it targets but for anything else I view it as downright dangerous and irresponsible.
(DIR) Post #2774424 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-08T17:09:56Z
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@kragen @uranther @feld There's a lot of frustration about first-mover advantage. That doesn't explain people who just did straight-up stupid shit, though.
(DIR) Post #2776024 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-01-08T18:13:21Z
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@drwho @uranther @feld You mean people like me, who didn't mine Bitcoin when we first heard about it?
(DIR) Post #2777659 by qwazix@mastodon.social
2019-01-08T19:20:22Z
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@uranther yeah I'd think that arguing for decentralization would not be limited to activityPub.However, after the last boom the cryptocurrency space has been overrun by scammers and ilk so people that haven't dived deep (or weren't around in the early days) are right in being weary.And after a dip the ones who believe are afraid to talk because they get immediately dismissed...I mean I've seen numerous "we need decentralized open source patreon" and really is that possible without crypto?
(DIR) Post #2777810 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T19:28:13Z
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@qwazix Right. I see a lot of projects trying to recreate internet money without first understanding what problems were solved when, why, how, and what solutions didn't work and why. It's really lazy to ignore history, and imo, bigoted to disregard technology simply because of some ilk surrounding it.Thanks for your input.
(DIR) Post #2778495 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-08T19:55:52Z
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@kragen @uranther @feld No, I meant stuff like...The first time somebody accused Bitcoin of being tulips, a bunch of people got upset. So a few folks said, "Fine, if they're worthless, then give your Bitcoins to me." And some of them did.And some of those people are now stupidly wealthy.
(DIR) Post #2778705 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2019-01-08T20:04:57Z
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@drwho @uranther @feld The power of asking!
(DIR) Post #2778747 by leip4Ier@infosec.exchange
2019-01-08T20:06:24Z
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@uranther i wrote it yesterday, and now thinking "why not post it"bitcoin, its idea, is an anarchist's dream. it's awesome.in reality, it became something much worse. it's not bitcoin's fault, it's how capitalism works, but for me it now is something i'd rather avoid dealing with.but i think people's attitude is also not mainly bitcoin's fault, it's other blockchains, too
(DIR) Post #2778957 by leip4Ier@infosec.exchange
2019-01-08T20:15:30Z
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@uranther i work with #ethereum mainly. its infrastructure is awful, it does look like they only care about money and eth prices, not helping people in trouble with govts, not building nice apps. they don't worry about normal people, they worry about those who have too much money and are won't worry too much if they lose some.
(DIR) Post #2778958 by leip4Ier@infosec.exchange
2019-01-08T20:15:31Z
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@uranther the idea of smart-contracts is nice, but it turned out that there aren't too many applications for it. you can't do anything except for managing money without interfacing with real world. and here it also gets weird. people build contracts that aren't open-source (and what's the point then? a user-end bitcoind app would do) or contain backdoors. and it's deemed normal! wtf!all those icos, their invasive ads, ethereum dramas contribute to the overall blockchain hate a lot.
(DIR) Post #2779092 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T20:21:15Z
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@leip4Ier Of course they won't solve everything like blockchains purportedly will. That is just sensationalism design to make people lots of money.Smart contracts have some interesting applications nevertheless and are worth exploring, but without cutting corners on security. The DAO is worth another try, just not on Ethereum.I hoped they would have learned their lesson but when I asked the speaker at DWebSummit about formal verification, I was disappointed by his answer.
(DIR) Post #2779167 by leip4Ier@infosec.exchange
2019-01-08T20:19:07Z
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@uranther ethereum here is the loudest, and its competitors are not much better. they obviously drop a shade on the blockchain technology.i don't believe that blockchain can be successfully applied to something except for decentralized money. but that's a good buzzword for pr...maybe if ethereum wasn't so loud, bitcoin could still be used for something that is not trading.sorry, i got a little offtopic here. and i'm sleepy, sorry if my texts are hard to understand.
(DIR) Post #2779168 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-08T20:24:36Z
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@leip4Ier The hype would have been impossible to prevent. It is an entirely new technology with very interesting applications, and we will just have to let people fail and waste people's money.
(DIR) Post #2779287 by drwho@hackers.town
2019-01-08T20:29:08Z
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@kragen @uranther @feld IKR?
(DIR) Post #2782488 by matilde@cybre.space
2019-01-08T22:42:15Z
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@uranther @rick_777 I’ve been poking around these like, ... man now I want to investIf we are into decentralization and global infrastructure why aren’t we into this
(DIR) Post #2792135 by rick_777@cybre.space
2019-01-09T05:57:23Z
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@leip4Ier"Bitcoin will deliver us from the evils of capitalist banks!"*Chinese company gets massively rich by making supper expensive Bitcoin miner facilityMFW.@uranther
(DIR) Post #2792136 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-09T06:04:06Z
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@rick_777 @leip4Ier life is a mixed bag
(DIR) Post #2804777 by R10T@infosec.exchange
2019-01-08T21:26:41Z
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@leip4IerWhat did Bitcoin become in your opinion? @uranther
(DIR) Post #2804778 by leip4Ier@infosec.exchange
2019-01-09T13:57:07Z
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@R10T something that isn't treated as a currency, isn't something you can buy something else with. it in most cases has to be first converted into a fiat currency. like a security, which is not issued by any company, but rather generates itself.i may be wrong, it's only how i perceive it.@uranther
(DIR) Post #2804779 by R10T@infosec.exchange
2019-01-09T16:07:01Z
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@leip4IerI see your point. I think the mainstream media does see Bitcoin as an objective of speculation/ investment. @uranther
(DIR) Post #2804780 by uranther@cybre.space
2019-01-09T16:14:52Z
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@R10T @leip4Ier FWIW, you can get your paycheck auto-converted to bitcoin using BitWage, and then spend it just like fiat using a Shift debit card.