Post 2326832 by pootz@mastodon.technology
(DIR) More posts by pootz@mastodon.technology
(DIR) Post #2321208 by steeperthandeep@mastodon.social
2018-12-27T00:31:15Z
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Idle thoughts: Big tech isn't going away willingly. I see a fair amount of talk about doing it harm, either legally or illegally. Wouldn't it be good to advocate for more government oversight, ie, sensible legislation. And at the same time push for small-scale solutions, such as those being talked about on forums like this. Can't these two approaches coexist? Different strokes for different folks.#Google #Facebook #Amazon #Capitalism #Socialism #SocialMedia
(DIR) Post #2323418 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T02:48:30Z
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@steeperthandeep We should eliminate the government support for the monopolies that make big tech so powerful — drastically curtail copyright, patent, and especially trade secret and noncompete-agreement monopolies. A Google or ex-Google employee that reveals Google's internal data shouldn't have to worry about prosecution, except in certain very narrow cases like revealing passwords. Government oversight is not what's needed; it's the problem, in this case.
(DIR) Post #2323886 by alcinnz@floss.social
2018-12-27T03:09:19Z
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@kragen @steeperthandeep There can be good regulation, and there can be bad regulation. I don't like to generalise and say it should all be done away with.But certainly I think the laws (or at least their interpretation) are too friendly to monopolies now.
(DIR) Post #2324248 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T03:22:55Z
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@kragenThen how do you propose to deal with the massive infrastructure that google, etc has accumulated?Copyrights & patents aren't the only issue, but certainly problems for other reasons.There's now no way to undo the shitshow that is big tech without a democratically led, grassroots movement vying for the power of the state to redistribute the servers, publicly fund them for all to use on community lead projects and fund open source development.The market won't fix this.
(DIR) Post #2324284 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T03:24:13Z
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@alcinnz @steeperthandeep Certainly it isn't necessary to think that we should do away with all regulation to think that, in this case, the problem is precisely the regulation, rather than its lack. I think we should maintain the regulations that prevent employers from imprisoning employees or assassinating ex-employees, for example, but we should remove as unconscionably monopolistic the regulations that give them ownership of their ex-employees' knowledge.
(DIR) Post #2324333 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T03:26:16Z
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@pootz I think Google is doing a reasonable job of dealing with its existing massive infrastructure; the problem is that merely operating this infrastructure grants them unconscionable power. Moving that unconscionable power to the state — as China has, for example — would not improve the situation, in my view.
(DIR) Post #2324474 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T03:30:35Z
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@kragenI mean how do you propose to effectively break up their monopoly, not managing it with the state.We will need political power of some sort to be able to break up google, even if we aren't putting the control of the actual servers in the hands of the state.
(DIR) Post #2324926 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T03:48:31Z
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@pootz As I tried to explain, they rely on the enforcement power of the state to maintain that monopoly power; in particular, tech employees are seriously intimidated by the threat of lawsuits like the ones against Kai-Fu Lee and Crossgain's employees — but also DMCA circumvention suits. Also, copyright enforcement is a huge barrier to entry to any would-be YouTube competitor, and patents are a major barrier to entry to any would-be Android competitor.
(DIR) Post #2325229 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T04:00:50Z
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@pootz An enormous problem right now for free software is that we don't have the information necessary to make interoperable drivers for proprietary hardware, clients for proprietary servers, or free-software substitute servers for the proprietary servers. A major reason for that is that ex-employees who have the necessary information are not revealing it for fear of prosecution. This is precisely the coercive power of the state being used to enforce illegitimate monopolies on knowledge.
(DIR) Post #2325310 by alcinnz@floss.social
2018-12-27T04:05:58Z
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@kragen @steeperthandeep I'm sorry, I've seen too many commentors take that logic.But I'm also saying I think something like the GDPR could be useful here, until we manage to replace mainstream technology.
(DIR) Post #2326017 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T04:29:17Z
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@kragenThat's not the only thing propping up Google. It doesn't matter who comes forward with what trade secret when the majority of people are dependent on Google tech as the default at some point, whether it's email, searches, their phone, their laptop, etc.You could get rid of the gov't overnight but it would not solve the problem that google is so entrenched in people's lives that their economic power is a genuine political power that can leveraged for its goals.
(DIR) Post #2326140 by msh@coales.co
2018-12-27T04:33:16Z
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@steeperthandeep In theory yes. In practise I'm not so sure because I have little faith in government as it exists today for the most part. It is all good to advocate for sensible legislation and certainly no harm, but chances are any legislation that comes to pass will not be sensible. Witness, for example, the copyright directives brought forth by the EU in response to the valid concerns around protecting creators' rights. They do more to entrench the power of big tech than doing nothing...
(DIR) Post #2326307 by msh@coales.co
2018-12-27T04:40:25Z
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@steeperthandeep ...as such I place more value and importance on those small scale but interoperable solutions such as ActivityPub implementations which enable distribution of not just information but power and influence.Not to say that government cannot play a role. I just think that that "government oversight" of big tech does little to serve society compared to a "controlled dismantling" of big tech such as an effective antitrust regime.
(DIR) Post #2326831 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T04:33:27Z
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You're not considering the economic question of the amount of capital a competitor would need to actually dethrone google.You need the money to do trade deals with OEMs, the hardware infrastructure, employees, the sheer DATA that lies on googles servers, the historical inertia of google as a market leader, etc are all things you aren't addressing by just getting rid of copyright or patents.So yeah that knowledge would be great, but it's worthless if we can't get the resources to build
(DIR) Post #2326832 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T04:37:16Z
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The only people with the power to challenge google are the very people who make it run: their workers.The only way to have leverage over google is for their workers to organize and demand that they open source the code they make for google, but also that Google's infrastructure should become a public utility for communities to use to meet their needs and not those of advertisers.Without public funding of municipal hosting we'll be right back where we started though as the net sells out again
(DIR) Post #2326833 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T04:58:46Z
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I'm not saying we don't need copyright or patent reform but the scope of this problem requires a societal shift that just isn't gonna happen through the right competitors coming along to save us with the right product.We're talking about the company whose slogan was literally "don't be evil" at one point. They evolved out of market pressures into the beast they are today, as will their competitors because the very structure of the market demands they fight for monopoly power or join the losers
(DIR) Post #2326834 by alcinnz@floss.social
2018-12-27T05:11:16Z
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@pootz When it comes to search, my conclusion I see that we don't need a direct competitor, we just need different people competing with small pieces of their offerings. No individually would be real threat but collectively we would be.
(DIR) Post #2326882 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:13:48Z
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@pootz People are dependent on that tech because nobody is making a reasonable alternative outside of Google, and that's in large part because ex-Googlers who know how to do it are afraid to strike out on their own.
(DIR) Post #2326918 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:17:01Z
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@pootz No, the only way for Google's workers to have leverage over Google is to eliminate the laws that gives Google illegitimate power over those workers.
(DIR) Post #2326973 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:20:35Z
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@pootz It didn't occur to me that you would think those things were expensive. Hardware resources are super cheap. Data on servers is super easy to copy, just legally risky — so eliminate the legal risk except in a few narrow cases. You don't need trade deals with OEMs to compete with Gmail, YouTube, and even Android, although you do need unlocked bootloaders in that last case. (Ensuring that it's legal to unlock them would help a lot.)
(DIR) Post #2327123 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T05:29:01Z
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@kragenhttps://jacobinmag.com/2018/06/google-project-maven-military-tech-workershttps://theintercept.com/2018/12/17/google-china-censored-search-engine-2/Workers organizing at google say otherwise.How do you propose we build any leverage for removing those laws in the first place? You can argue against laws til you're blue in the face, but where is your leverage to demand?Asking nicely is getting us nowhere.
(DIR) Post #2327259 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T05:35:17Z
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@alcinnzI use searx when I need something I can't find with google or DDG, so yeah. Any individual piece of the pie has competitors, but I agree it will take a collective effort. But we can't just avoid political questions about the state just because it's messy.If we ever get any real power the established powers will be sure to use the state to crush us, so we need to have contending forces that can fight back somehow. Social and political.
(DIR) Post #2327349 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T05:39:46Z
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@kragenIf you're just aiming to be an alternative you're already losing.We need FOSS to be the default, not something tech enthusiasts choose to install with a bunch of hacking and trouble shooting because they have the know-how.You will not break the monopoly power tech giants have unless we're in a position where mastodon, peertube or (federated service) comes pre-installed in the same way Facebook, YouTube or chrome are.
(DIR) Post #2327417 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:42:51Z
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@pootz So far I've been explaining what I think you should do with power if you get it. How you can get power is a different discussion.
(DIR) Post #2327423 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:43:00Z
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@pootz Yes, I agree with all of that.
(DIR) Post #2327479 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T05:45:54Z
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@kragenTo someone living on a dollar a day, that is.To someone who can't scrape together $400 for an emergency, it is.For a volunteer patreon funded project with no recognition outside of the 5 people who stumbled upon it, it is.We're talking about the power of multinational corps that can influence the literal US gov't to enforce their interests at home and abroad. That's power that you don't get by being a quirky alternative but through market dominance.
(DIR) Post #2327483 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:46:21Z
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@pootz I think the Project Maven shutdown is a very positive step, but the fact that it required dozens of resignations and thousands of signatures is a very clear indication that Google's rank and file have very little power compared to the executive team.
(DIR) Post #2327537 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T05:49:02Z
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@kragenIf they had no leverage google would have fired them before it was an issue. As it stands google needs their workers.There's a fire that's spreading in the tech workforce that we will need to have the leverage for any of your proposals here.
(DIR) Post #2327542 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:49:31Z
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@pootz Let's take the market out of the equation, then. The only reason the market enters the discussion in the first place is the artificial scarcity created by the government-granted limited monopolies we're discussing here. You don't need US$400 or a dollar a day to run your own Raspberry Pi Zero.
(DIR) Post #2327563 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T05:50:19Z
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@kragenThat's just as important if we're talking about changing reality though.
(DIR) Post #2327587 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:51:45Z
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@pootz We have more leverage than workers in other industries, that's for sure. And maybe more than we did thirty or forty years ago. But the reason people work as employees, selling their bodies for someone else's profits, is that they lack the independence and power to work on what they want to work on.
(DIR) Post #2327624 by kragen@nerdculture.de
2018-12-27T05:54:00Z
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@pootz I agree: if you have power but no wisdom, your actions will have large effects but they will not be the ones you desire, while if you have wisdom but no power, your actions will have no effects, so you will still not get what you desire. I'm offering my point of view in the hope that it's wisdom, and in order to learn from your disagreement. I'm not offering you power.
(DIR) Post #2327707 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T05:58:26Z
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@kragenThey lack property and power. Independence stems from those two things. But the reality is that most start ups fail and you'll be right back where you started as an employee, only with a big loan to pay off.Employees have the power to demand how Google be run if they organize collectively. They can end maven now, but if they get more organized they can demand all code be FOSS and default Competitors don't have that power.
(DIR) Post #2328576 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-27T06:48:57Z
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@kragenI got you, yeah. In my circles we call it theory and practice but it's the same idea. You need both for sure.I'm just trying to make the point that the scale of power involved here is huge