Post 2228074 by varx@cybre.space
(DIR) More posts by varx@cybre.space
(DIR) Post #2188623 by ItsWill@fosstodon.org
2018-12-22T11:32:28Z
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@orbifx It's disgusting. I went #vegan about 2 years ago, and haven't looked back once. It's simply the better, more compassionate life
(DIR) Post #2189812 by toro@mstdn.io
2018-12-22T13:02:44Z
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@orbifx I love meat so I'm never letting that go. However, the practices that go on in the industry sadden me
(DIR) Post #2189994 by snowdusk_@mastodon.sdf.org
2018-12-22T13:19:54Z
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@orbifx This makes me so sad
(DIR) Post #2190145 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-22T13:34:09Z
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@orbifxThose no kill eggs exist since years, even in Berlin. REWE sells several of them since long and my parents already bought them even I was a child.And yes, because humans are not Herbivore, we need animal products to live.
(DIR) Post #2219620 by codewiz@mstdn.io
2018-12-23T15:20:35Z
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@Vamp898 @orbifx I'm not vegan, but don't millions of vegans prove that we can, indeed, live without animal products?Yes, vegan diets are often poor in vitamin B12 and D3, but it can be extracted from plants and concentrated into dietary supplements. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Health_research
(DIR) Post #2220389 by synaesthetica@mastodon.social
2018-12-23T15:59:47Z
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@orbifx Technology like that (and legislation mandating its use) is probably the best way forward to reduce the horrific amount of death and suffering caused by animal farming. Most people are, unfortunately, not willing to change their eating habits for the greater good.
(DIR) Post #2223460 by charlag@birb.site
2018-12-23T18:16:49Z
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@codewiz @Vamp898 @orbifx double that. Take you B12 (which they shove into cows anyway), your calcium and maybe vitamin D or iron if needed and you're good.Ofc some oils are also good. It's easier than I thought overall.
(DIR) Post #2228073 by varx@cybre.space
2018-12-23T19:59:33Z
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@codewiz @Vamp898 @orbifx Unfortunately, B-12 is not produced by plants. It's made in the intestines of grazing animals by symbiotic bacteria. (Our guts probably produce some as well, but not in a way where we can absorb it.) And I should note that algal B-12 is... controversial, to say the least.Fortunately, we can use microbial cultures to produce B-12 at scale, and it's just as good as getting it from milk or meat!
(DIR) Post #2228074 by varx@cybre.space
2018-12-23T20:00:48Z
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@codewiz @Vamp898 @orbifx And fun fact: Since cow gut bacteria can't produce B-12 without the right diet, including a source of cobalt, cows in industrial food systems are given B-12 supplements!So if you eat beef, you're probably getting B-12 supplementation anyway.
(DIR) Post #2228361 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T22:16:22Z
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@codewiz @orbifx Vitamin B12 is produced by herbivores mostly. Because we are not herbivore, we do not produce B12, simple as that.Also problems are there to solve, Vegans often have this "Just don't do it duh" attitude, they rather go back into caves and life there than solving complex problems.Also, until now, there is no working B12 pill that replaces animal products, there are several which replace some of the aspects to a certain degree, not more
(DIR) Post #2228463 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T22:20:59Z
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@charlag @codewiz @orbifx Cows produce B12 in their stomach, i am pretty sure you mix that up with pigs which are not herbivore and so do not produce B12.And B12 isn't just B12, the B12 in animals is extremely complex and only parts of it can be produce in pill form with low to medium effectivity.Where does this sudden "Just take pills and you're fine" attitude come from? As if biology is that simple lol
(DIR) Post #2228577 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T22:27:34Z
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@charlag @codewiz @orbifx There is no need to eat meat and for sure no need to kill animals.But it is scientifically proven, without any doubt, that humans are not herbivore and need animal products to life.Vegans don't like that fact because veganism is like a religion for them and we know how far religions brought us Facts have no strength in a religious world, its all about believe and doing the "right thing"©®™But there is more than black and white, good and evil.
(DIR) Post #2228803 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T22:39:50Z
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@varx @codewiz @orbifx A lot of cows in the industrial food system get the right diet and so produce B12. You cant generalize that.Also from these cows we know, that B12 supplements are not the same as the B12 animals produce. There is a big difference and you can measure that even in the meat and the milk of such cows who got supplemented.Pills can help mitigate the outcome, but they don't solve the issue.
(DIR) Post #2228854 by charlag@birb.site
2018-12-23T22:41:47Z
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@Vamp898 @codewiz @orbifx no I didn't mistake anything.Please stop treating meat as a multivitamin.Yea, we should be dead, sure.
(DIR) Post #2229028 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T22:51:32Z
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@charlag @codewiz @orbifx We were not talking about meat. Please turn down your anger and emotion, otherwise there is no way of an objective and fact based conversation.You obviously don't know how Vitamins work and what Vitamin B12 is (its not one thing), nor do you seem to know why and when B12 supplements are used by farmers (they are forbidden for organic farmers in germany btw)The question is, do you want to know and learn, or do you just want to show us you're vegan?
(DIR) Post #2229120 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T22:55:54Z
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@charlag @codewiz @orbifx First of all, there are several B12 vitamins, as said, there is not one single B12. Its a group of vitamins.Because humans did not manage to synthesize a fully working B12 yet, Vitamin B12 supplements are made with micro organisms from animals. So B12 supplements are _not_ Vegan.But, as said, there is no need to ever kill an animal to get animal products, the "no-kill" egg proofs that pretty good.You can live as a vegetarian without ever kill any animal.
(DIR) Post #2229178 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T22:58:01Z
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@charlag @codewiz @orbifx We even managed to make 100% real, no fake, meat without killing any animal. It is still to expensive to get sold in stores, but the price for production is dropping every year and there is a big chance for this to hit the market.So we can make 100% real meat with all its advantages in a laboratory without ever killing one single animal.Veganism is not a solution for a problem, its a workaround.
(DIR) Post #2229273 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T23:02:27Z
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@charlag @codewiz @orbifx And we need more of those people. We need more people who solve problems and less people who find workarounds.Eating pseudo vegan pills to supplement the lack of B12 caused by not eating animal products the human body needs is not a solution.Creating the animal products in a lab _is_ a solution. It solves all our problems at once without a downside. No more animal killing, Zero Emission, perfect quality.That is problem solving, we need more of that.
(DIR) Post #2229696 by varx@cybre.space
2018-12-23T23:19:06Z
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@Vamp898 @codewiz @orbifx Yes, it's hard to know what beef is from cows given B-12.Tell me more about what you mean by the difference.Are you referring to cyano-, adenosyl-, hydroxy-, and methyl-cobalamin? Unless you have a pretty rare metabolic disorder, those are equivalent, since your body strips the variable group off and then attaches a methyl or adenosyl group. We don't use it directly.(Gut bacteria also *consume* excess B-12, just to complicate things.)
(DIR) Post #2229838 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T23:24:28Z
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@varx @codewiz @orbifx It is not completely researched yet what a lack of the single Vitmain B12 cause and how they affect the human body, so i can't tell you.But i was not talking about beef but about milk. There is almost no Vitamin B12 in the meat and there is no need to eat any animal meat at all to get vitamins.
(DIR) Post #2229987 by varx@cybre.space
2018-12-23T23:29:17Z
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@Vamp898 @codewiz @orbifx I should clarify that *personally*, I think veganism is 1) ethically great, but 2) only enabled by modern industrial systems.It's a weird juxtaposition, and I won't blame someone for eschewing a vegan diet on the basis of wanting to avoid taking an artificially produced supplement. That's their call!(Also, I do eat meat, just to add color to my stance here.)
(DIR) Post #2230070 by varx@cybre.space
2018-12-23T23:31:55Z
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@Vamp898 @codewiz @orbifx There's definitely B-12 in meat. USDA site says 2 µg / 100 g meat. (For a sense of scale, 1 µg per day is plenty. We're *very* efficient at reusing B-12.)
(DIR) Post #2230117 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T23:33:33Z
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@varx @codewiz @orbifx I do not eat meat when i have a choice to (which is 99% of the time).But i do eat for example no-kill eggs and no-kill milk.I just think we should solve the problems we have and not just stop doing what we do.Replace Cars by Trains and Electric Cars is a solution.Walking by foot and not doing long-distance travel is not a solution.Veganism is the "Walking by foot solution" which is, for me personally, a step backward.
(DIR) Post #2230156 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T23:34:33Z
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@varx @codewiz @orbifx I'd say that highly depends on the meat quality. I've read several times that there is a big difference between organic meat and mass produced meat.The one cows eat fresh grass and nothing else, the others eat some kind of shit with supplements.
(DIR) Post #2230298 by varx@cybre.space
2018-12-23T23:39:18Z
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@Vamp898 There's definitely a difference in meat quality, but organic/pesticide is just one factor. Both of those can be done at industrial scale (mass-produced). What's done less at industrial scale is 100% grass-fed cows (people like fatty meat for some reason? but also grain is cheaper because corn, ugh) or even mostly-grass-fed, IIRC.Just looking for "organic" on the label isn't enough, and I'd argue is worse in some ways, since it's absolutist on antibiotics. :-/@orbifx
(DIR) Post #2230372 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T23:41:51Z
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@varx @orbifx That depends on what organic actually means.The EU controlled organic seal for example allows medication of the animals, but only when they are sick and they are not allowed to get slaughtered immediately after the medication.
(DIR) Post #2230448 by varx@cybre.space
2018-12-23T23:45:01Z
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@Vamp898 @orbifx Ah, good to know! I only know the US system, which is pretty strict on that front.But I only buy meat from farmers markets, and check in about their practices first. One thing that's very common here among small organic operations is to treat sick animals, but then sell them off at a loss to a non-organic operation, which... I guess that works?I wish we had a system with more nuance, like you describe.
(DIR) Post #2230535 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T23:47:52Z
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@varx @orbifx In the end, it doesn't really matter. 1/3 of everything we plant is planted to get eaten by animals. An extreme amount of CO2 is caused by meat production.I personally see no option to eat meat right now due to our severe situation. As long the lab meet is not ready for the market, i rather eat no meat at all as human bodies don't need it anyway.If there is no choice (3am at a train station and nothing but a burger king) i will eat meat, but thats very rare
(DIR) Post #2230636 by varx@cybre.space
2018-12-23T23:51:08Z
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@Vamp898 I agree, the vast amount of meat people eat is horrifyingly bad for the soil, water, and atmosphere.I eat meat maybe once a month. That's my compromise. I wish I could go without it entirely, but I get strong cravings for it about that often, and I think it's important to listen to my body on that. (What's interesting is that the rest of the time, I find meat kinda gross.)
(DIR) Post #2230706 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T23:55:05Z
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@varx There is nothing wrong with that.once a month is perfectly fine i'd say.I would say that a limit of 600g per Week would already solve a _lot_ of problems.But in germany we have excellent replace products not made of soya which taste 100% perfect like meat.Like this one https://www.ruegenwalder.de/produkte/vegetarische-muehlen-cordon-bleuAnd they are produced with zero emission too
(DIR) Post #2230841 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-23T23:59:50Z
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@varx They have even much more, and they all taste excellent. At least in germany, there really i no need at all to eat meat right now, even if you want the real taste.https://www.ruegenwalder.de/vegetarische-produkte
(DIR) Post #2239957 by charlag@birb.site
2018-12-24T08:10:55Z
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@Vamp898 @codewiz @orbifx why lab meat will be better than B12? Why it will be zero emissions? Will it be affordable and is it healthy?I speak from experience of my relatives who had problems with B12 by ignoring it for the whole life so they had to take injections and now tale pills and the level is fine.
(DIR) Post #2333419 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-27T11:30:31Z
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@charlag@codewiz @orbifxMeasuring the B12 level in the blood is one thing, measuring the healthy effect in your body is something different.Lab meat is not made for B12, you can just drink milk, eat eggs or other animal products to get B12, there never is a need to eat meat, never.Lab meat can be produced in a lab, you don't need to plant food and feed animals or anything like that, you just need a lab and that can run with electricity from solar, wind or water
(DIR) Post #2333501 by alyxmaia@sunbeam.city
2018-12-23T18:49:44Z
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@codewizMillions of vegans only prove that those millions can live as vegans, not that "we" all can. There's a lot of disabled and chronically ill people that will never be able to be vegan. There's a lot more of potential issues to fix that 3 or 4 isolated nutrients, nutrition is a lot more than checking a list of substances. I know well because I had to stop being vegan because of my illnesses. @Vamp898 @orbifx
(DIR) Post #2333502 by codewiz@mstdn.io
2018-12-24T01:22:24Z
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@alyxmaia @Vamp898 @orbifx Could you share more details, if you don't mind me asking?I'm pondering with the idea of going vegan one day, with the hope that it will reduce my LDL cholesterol and blood iron levels without serious adverse effects if I'm a bit careful to eat good sources of all other nutrients.
(DIR) Post #2333503 by Vamp898@social.tchncs.de
2018-12-27T11:36:58Z
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@codewiz@alyxmaia @orbifxI'd say, see a doctor and ask him for a healthy diet or something like that.Going vegan is not healthier, the opposide. A lot of vegan products use a lot is fat and other stuff in the hope to recreate the taste of animal product.French fries are vegan, they are bad for your Cholesterin.Vegan = no animal productsVegan != HealthyEating healthy is healthy, no matter if you're vegan or not