Post 2012204 by pootz@mastodon.technology
(DIR) More posts by pootz@mastodon.technology
(DIR) Post #1988270 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T17:50:18Z
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Hey #libertarian folks on the fediverse.What do you think is the best free market solution for extreme poverty for cases like #Flint or parts of #Detroit?I realize there are some good free market solutions that might take 50 years, but I mean specifically the sort of thing that can be realistically implemented within roughly a decade's time. Thoughts?
(DIR) Post #1989955 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-14T19:10:46Z
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@profoundlynerdy Jeff, the first answer that comes to my mind is ‘universal basic income.’ I recommend reading this for starters: https://lifehacker.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-universal-basic-income-1825172737
(DIR) Post #1990028 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-14T19:14:05Z
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@profoundlynerdy You may also want to have a look at Mannabase. They've been around a while already, & are known for doing UBI through crypto. https://www.mannabase.com
(DIR) Post #1990095 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-14T19:17:03Z
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@profoundlynerdy Stop raising the cost of living by reducing government actions. Every single action government takes makes the cost of living go up for everyone which hurts the poor and those on fixed incomes disproportionately.
(DIR) Post #1990154 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-14T19:20:06Z
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@profoundlynerdy I think you'll also want to follow Max: He just posted some stuff about UBI through his account. https://social.tchncs.de/@muehlfield
(DIR) Post #1990788 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T19:51:17Z
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@kanuukerUBI doesn't make water any more drinkable than throwing cash in a river does nor is the problem affordability folks.The problem is a lack of infrastructure maintenance and a complete disregard for human need which.@oceanusR337@profoundlynerdy
(DIR) Post #1992937 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-14T20:01:01Z
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@pootz @kanuuker @profoundlynerdy What UBI aims to do is to put direct income into the pockets of mostly powerless people ... so they can begin first to solve their own problems.
(DIR) Post #1992938 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T21:07:43Z
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@oceanusR337That's not a concrete solution though, it's the vague inference that having cash will provide people the means to solve the problem.There's no reason to believe that people will magically make that leap, especially if they've been so systematically deprived of resources that they literally don't have drinkable water. I can't imagine the education system is much better or access to capital and productive power are either@kanuuker @profoundlynerdy
(DIR) Post #1992939 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T21:48:21Z
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@pootz @oceanusR337 @kanuuker That's extremely perceptive of you. You're correct, in the case of #Flint, the local education system is generally terrible. Moreover, there is little in the way of intellectual or professional capital at home.The illiteracy rate in Flint is sky high. Many people have *no idea* how to dress for a job interview, or proper etiquette in certain situations, etc.This all conspires against them. Oh, yes, and it's functionally a "one party" city that always blames the other guy.
(DIR) Post #1993028 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-14T21:52:21Z
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@profoundlynerdy @pootz @kanuuker This was my previous point, which I think you share: Food, clothing, shelter, *life* have to come first, and education, hopefully at the same time.
(DIR) Post #1993057 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-14T21:49:59Z
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@pootz @kanuuker @profoundlynerdy IMO the education system is the US' biggest problem right now. We spend more money on Defense than we do on education, and that is just plain wrong. And the start of lifetimes worth of problems. These things are the foundations of the fascist government that has evolved for us. Which leads me to this: If people can't/ don't/ won't starting working hand in hand to get each other through problems, what hope is there for all of us?
(DIR) Post #1993058 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T21:54:22Z
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@oceanusR337 @pootz @kanuuker I'm a hawk when it comes to defense.I think the biggest problem is the education bureaucracy and the tendency to think "more money" solves everything.There is a minimal dollar amount for success, sure. But I don't see anybody using highly successful private / semi-private schools with shoe string budgets as *serious* case-studies to be emulated in the public system.Also, there is something to be said for pen and paper in place of iPads.
(DIR) Post #1993349 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T22:05:35Z
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@profoundlynerdyExactly.I would argue the solution lies in community based organizing that empowers people through spaces for political conversations and action. Not just electorally but in ways that change people's daily life like demanding cuts to the police to fund other areas or building people's power in a way that teaches them the nitty gritty of how to run their communities, instead of paying an someone else to solve it.@oceanusR337 @kanuuker
(DIR) Post #1993413 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T22:09:07Z
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@pootz @oceanusR337 @kanuuker I don't think cutting police funding is viable, especially in Flint. Google their staffing levels and funding. They're *genuinely* under funded by any reasonable metric.As a rule of thumb, I don't expect state funds to solve anyone's problems. There are always too many strings attached for starters. Also, even in the absence of "strings" many poor people lack basic money skills. Yes, exceptions exist and such exceptional poor people are rarely poor for long.
(DIR) Post #1993564 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-14T22:11:27Z
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@pootz Well, I do think that the United States is finally starting to seriously wise up, I just think IMO that it's too late. I truly wish that we were more like the French are right now. Politicians should be afraid of us, not vice versa. I think we're just falling apart. USSR did it in 1993; now it's our turn ... unless one of you sees something that I don't. @profoundlynerdy @kanuuker
(DIR) Post #1993565 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T22:15:45Z
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@oceanusR337 @pootz @kanuuker I think I do. We have seen *much* more divisive and turbulent times than this. In a lot of ways we're going through another "Yellow Journalism" phase. We made it through that, just fine. We'll make it through this.Second, even if we had a general economic collapse (God forbid) we'd be back on our feet in 20 odd years. The ex-USSR (now the Russian Federation) more or less proves as much.
(DIR) Post #1994353 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-14T22:58:47Z
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@oceanusR337 @profoundlynerdy @pootz No, I think eliminating all forms of government welfare and interference comes first. A free and open market will then provide everything that people need and do so more efficiently and more effectively.
(DIR) Post #1994623 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-14T23:13:11Z
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@profoundlynerdyWhat you've said is a contradiction.If state funds won't solve people's problems then police funding isn't underfunded at all, because they're state funded after all. They aren't solving anyone's problems.None of what you said proposes any solutions to the problem of poverty at all though and effectively all you've said is "I don't trust poor people with money, period."@oceanusR337 @kanuuker
(DIR) Post #1995933 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-15T00:14:58Z
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@profoundlynerdy IMO, as we fall apart, everything good *and* bad is going to become more local, and cops are going to be the front line. Some police depts. are going to be busier, for sure. But we don't need competing batches of cops in towns, townships, counties, state agencies, & a bunch of fed agencies. Yes we need them; will need them more; but there's a bunch of them we don't need also. Many of them are just duplicated squad-car drivers who cost us too much money. @pootz @kanuuker
(DIR) Post #1995954 by jdrch@mastodon.social
2018-12-15T00:15:32Z
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@profoundlynerdyPublic aid needs to be a continuous multiple or fraction of income instead of being graduated as it currently is in many places. The latter keeps people poor by cutting them off from benefits completely if they make more than a certain amount
(DIR) Post #1996063 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-15T00:20:13Z
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@profoundlynerdy I think your positive attitude is fantastic! Seriously! People do need to have hope, and work hard, as we have to help others. The grass will still be green as we walk to the new side ... but we gotta keep walking ....@pootz @kanuuker
(DIR) Post #1996137 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-15T00:23:45Z
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@kanuuker Do you call yourself a libertarian? I'm just curious. I am one. I think the Pauls (Ron & Rand) are serious changers of American thought, but even they would say that we'll never have perfect Libertarianism. @profoundlynerdy @pootz
(DIR) Post #1996748 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-15T01:00:53Z
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@kanuukerWhat do you mean by "efficient" and "effective"? For who and to what ends?@oceanusR337 @profoundlynerdy
(DIR) Post #2008742 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-15T14:56:45Z
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@pootz @oceanusR337 @profoundlynerdy Competition increases efficiency and improves effectiveness because providers have to improve their products and services to maintain their customers. Removing competition, a la government, removes the main incentives to improve.
(DIR) Post #2010223 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-15T16:09:24Z
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@kanuukerYou still haven't defined either of those words and for who. Is it efficient for a worker who puts in long hours to effectively receive bread crumbs for products that they can't even afford that they make?How do you reinstate competition when monopoly status has been achieved after 20 decades of capital accumulation by the most efficient business owners who survive boom and bust? A handful of companies now own all the others, so how do you propose fixing that?
(DIR) Post #2010252 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-15T16:11:56Z
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@pootz This is literally economics 101. No, it's not even that - it's remedial economics. You should read Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt for a quick primer.
(DIR) Post #2010749 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-15T16:36:04Z
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@kanuukerGood deflection there.I've studied econ. Most economists don't know shit about the economy. They just defend the excesses of capitalism by claiming it's "efficient". That's why I want you to actually explain yourself instead of hiding behind buzzwords.Americans make less money now than they did a decade ago. What the fuck part of that is efficient. No capitalist in a free market cares about competition they care about control. Over the market and over their workers.
(DIR) Post #2011170 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2018-12-15T16:58:16Z
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@kanuuker @pootz @oceanusR337 I understand the argument at that level. I'm failing to grasp how that could be implemented within a military structure effectively.
(DIR) Post #2011225 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-15T17:00:34Z
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@pootz Well, you clearly don't understand if you make comments like "excess of capitalism". All the bad things you mention come from controlling the market via laws and regulations - aka not capitalism.
(DIR) Post #2012078 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-15T17:55:35Z
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@profoundlynerdy @pootz @oceanusR337 The only solution is to exit the system because it's the system that's the cause. Cryptocurrencies are the way to exit the system. If government can't control the money, they can't control the people. Markets will then thrive and improve the quality of life for everyone.
(DIR) Post #2012204 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-15T18:04:49Z
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@kanuukerIf a company controls a market because they've effectively out performed all the competition in being the most efficient producers, is it still capitalism even if they didn't need the government to do it?Once they reach that point what forces stop them from being challenged? If you get rid of the government what force keeps the checks in place to ensure competition happens in the face of naturally ocurring monopoly?
(DIR) Post #2012248 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-15T18:08:29Z
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@pootz That's not how free markets work. There are only two ways to get a monopoly - using government to stop your competition, or provide your product or service in such a wonderful manner that there's no demand for a competitive product, which is impossible in reality. So, the only real way to gain a monopoly is through government protection.
(DIR) Post #2012268 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-15T18:10:55Z
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@pootz In a free market, since there is no government protection, the companies the meet the demands of the market best survive. If they charge too much, their competitors will undersell them. If their quality is too poor, their competitors will out build them. The natural incentive of a free market is to do the best you can. The natural incentive in a controlled market is to stifle competition.
(DIR) Post #2012278 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-15T18:12:40Z
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@kanuuker You're making fantastic points. My favorite way of thinking about crypto is that it's a peoples' movement to change government by OUR control of money, and not a second civil war. I believe that Trump is in on this as well. His new chief of staff is a crypto champion. @profoundlynerdy @pootz
(DIR) Post #2012304 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-15T18:15:37Z
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@kanuuker https://coingape.com/bitcoin-advocate-mick-mulvaney-announced-new-chief-staff-president-trump/@profoundlynerdy @pootz
(DIR) Post #2014578 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-15T20:40:21Z
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@kanuukerIf there is no government to enforce competition then why would a business not just ensure it's rule by force.Look at drug cartels that are willing to kill rivals and government officials that get in their way. Why the hell would I care about being fair if hiring hitmen on the market was more effective at ensuring my dominance.Or how about if I own a bank and can just buy enough resources to ensure that only those will to play by my rules get resources.
(DIR) Post #2014622 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-15T20:43:22Z
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@kanuukerOr become so big that your power is greater than the government or market's ability to put you in check and "play fair" because you own all the resources that make both work. Or own most companies in existence so that what looks like competition is really just an illusion of choice to target different demographics
(DIR) Post #2014680 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-15T20:46:55Z
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@kanuukerBitcoin isn't "exiting" the system anymore than buying gold is.Most people don't even know how to set up a wallet or give a shit because bitcoin isn't a meaningful transfer of value. It's just a speculation commodity that investors buy up to create a perceived illusion of value so they can avoid capital controls and trade for quick profits.It can easily be integrated into "the system" though and banks working on it.@profoundlynerdy @oceanusR337
(DIR) Post #2029841 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T14:33:13Z
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@pootz Again, that all stems from government controlled markets. It's impossible to own all the resources and control a market without government law.
(DIR) Post #2029865 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T14:35:24Z
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@pootz Government does not enforce competition - that's a logical fallacy. Government can only restrict competition. When government steps and deludes people into thinking they're breaking apart monopolies, what they're doing is actually at the behest of some other entity looking to strengthen their position. At best, government actions to promote competition is nothing but a counter their own preexisting laws.
(DIR) Post #2029880 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T14:36:34Z
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@pootz Also, drug and banking cartels only exist because of the laws that control their markets. If drugs were legal, the risk/reward ratio would fall so precipitously that the cartels would have no reason to exist.
(DIR) Post #2032142 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T16:53:57Z
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@kanuukerRead up on company townshttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_townAt what point is the established power of a company indistinguishable from government? Seriously, why do you think a company won't just use it's clout to enforce it's own rules.It's like Microsoft with IE or Google with Chrome and the ways they control the software ecosystem without ever relying on the "government" to do it
(DIR) Post #2032197 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T16:58:16Z
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@pootz It takes time for competition to spin up. That's the one of main problems anti-capitalists have - they aren't looking at the bigger picture. Google, MS, etc only maintain their power through IP law - aka government protection.
(DIR) Post #2032388 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-15T21:17:38Z
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@pootz Do you know how many cryptocurrencies there are right now, other than Bitcoin? Do you know the meaning/ intent for the crypto concepts of decentralization, peer-to-peer, and privacy?@kanuuker @profoundlynerdy
(DIR) Post #2032389 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T17:06:39Z
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@oceanusR337Yeah and each one of them is worthless other than maybe maidsafe which is actually tied to something useful to derive value from, but only in the context of alloting storage space and not as a general currency.Nothing about crypto offers the capacity to "exit" the system. That requires building actually cohesive, powerful social movements. You can't just exit exploitation and oppression by using encryption. @kanuuker @profoundlynerdy
(DIR) Post #2032390 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T17:08:35Z
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@pootz Yeah, you can. Look at what Dash is doing in Venezuela. It's still early, but there's a real social movement developing there. Dash is about to go viral.
(DIR) Post #2032456 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T17:11:33Z
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@kanuukerThen what happens when a market player can enforce their will on other actors because they own so much?Like when Walmart comes into town and sells goods at a lower than profitable rate than the local mom and pop shops until they put them out of business then jacks up the price. Or when distributors refuse resources to worker coops because the threat their business model poses to capitalism.Or if I decide to hire out hits on businesses that won't cooperate with my plans
(DIR) Post #2032480 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T17:13:02Z
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@kanuukerYeah so how about legal cartels. What if market actors decide to collude to fix prices and conditions so that no one else can feasibly compete, all without gov't intervention
(DIR) Post #2032481 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T17:13:06Z
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@pootz Again, Walmart maintains its position through government law. Every fear you have, is happening right now, and it's happening because of a controlled market.
(DIR) Post #2032496 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T17:14:13Z
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@pootz How would they do that without government intervention? If there's no government protection and they set their prices high, there's nothing to stop a new enterprise opening shop and undercutting them and thus driving prices down.
(DIR) Post #2032569 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T17:17:43Z
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@kanuukerAnd the reality that websites don't work without special features that are implemented that break in other browsers. I literally can't use gmail or docs in firefox. There are real world restrictions in place through economic means that you can't just handwave away by saying "NOPE THAT'S THE GOV'T".Also saying anticapitalists aren't looking at the bigger picture is hilarious from people supporting a system that can't address climate change or look past the next quarter
(DIR) Post #2032585 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T17:18:30Z
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@kanuukerThere's also nothing to stop me from killing you for getting in my way.How do you get rid of the government?
(DIR) Post #2032590 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T17:18:44Z
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@pootz I use gmail and gdocs in Firefox everyday. You are being obtuse. Good day.
(DIR) Post #2032993 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-16T17:25:42Z
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@pootz You really don't know enough at all, but you're a young person who's made up his mind and doesn't want to learn. That's profoundly sad. I agree with you about #maidSafe, but you also ought to open yourself up to other examples like #Waves and #Dash. Dash, in particular, is helping/ saving people in Venezuela. Best of luck to you; we're done. @kanuuker @profoundlynerdy
(DIR) Post #2032994 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T17:39:55Z
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@oceanusR337The only reason maidsafe is interesting is because it's tied to an actual function, I.e. storage. What do wave and dash have going for them?@kanuuker @profoundlynerdy
(DIR) Post #2032995 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T17:42:01Z
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@pootz @oceanusR337 @profoundlynerdy Dash has storage coming, but it doesn't need it to have value. Dash is valued because it's better than fiat. It's instant, private, deflationary, and permanent. Dash is money, not a utility token.
(DIR) Post #2032998 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T17:42:15Z
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@kanuukerI use Firefox on debian so I'm not the typical use case. I have to use chromium though to be able to use docs otherwise it says "please enable cookies" which are.
(DIR) Post #2033007 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T17:42:51Z
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@pootz I use Firefox on Kubuntu.
(DIR) Post #2033014 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T17:43:51Z
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@pootz Thankfully though the browser market is mostly free market so you have several options to choose from that meet your needs. That's capitalism.
(DIR) Post #2033464 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T18:07:10Z
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@kanuukerSo a completely different version, cool. I just went with it as a personal example. Also fuck chromium.I mean if you want an example that's better you can look at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp.Or the fact every desktop came with windows and still mostly do because Microsoft colluded with manufactures to do so. How do you combat that type of market collusion? Linux had nor has nowhere near the resources to make those deals
(DIR) Post #2033494 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-16T18:09:05Z
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@pootz Again, that was all due to MS taking advantage of the legal system. You keep making arguments for a free market without even realizing it.
(DIR) Post #2033533 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T18:10:54Z
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@kanuukerOK so answer my question about how you get rid of the legal system.
(DIR) Post #2033895 by pootz@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T18:33:49Z
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@kanuukerAlso at what point did MS use the legal system to enforce a trade deal with OEMs? It's not like OEMs couldn't decide to refuse their money.
(DIR) Post #2034559 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2018-12-16T19:16:48Z
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@kanuuker @pootz @oceanusR337 What do you mean Dash has storage coming? I don't follow.
(DIR) Post #2034658 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-16T19:23:39Z
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@profoundlynerdy I believe they're referring to wallets/storage that go beyond phones & PCs. Here's the ‘official’ guide:https://www.dash.org/wallets/@kanuuker @pootz
(DIR) Post #2034684 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-16T19:25:04Z
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@profoundlynerdy It needs to grow; it's *gonna* grow, through everyday use in more places ....@kanuuker @pootz
(DIR) Post #2053553 by kanuuker@liberdon.com
2018-12-17T14:31:25Z
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@profoundlynerdy @pootz @oceanusR337 One aspect of Evolution, Dash's upcoming major release, is to implement DashDrive - a decentralized storage solution.
(DIR) Post #2053588 by oceanusR337@social.nasqueron.org
2018-12-17T14:33:47Z
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@kanuuker Sounds excellent. Thx for sharing – @profoundlynerdy @pootz
(DIR) Post #2524791 by leyonhjelm@liberdon.com
2019-01-01T23:20:06Z
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@profoundlynerdyGet rid of easy debt and the subsidising of inflated markets. Sure, it'll crash the market, but is the only way to uninflate the cost of living and everything else. Easy debt is what enabled this to become a crisis. Get rid of it and people can walk away from the bad situation instead of being stuck and possibly subsidised.
(DIR) Post #2527726 by profoundlynerdy@mastodon.technology
2019-01-02T01:05:06Z
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@leyonhjelm I'm with you, as long as we can still have reasonable bankruptcy laws in the process. No too big to fail / jail.On the opposite end, I think we should get rid of poverty programs that increase for every new dependent. You get one voucher (except for multiple births) and should your dependent claim assistance, you lose yours. You've had more than a decade to develop marketable skills.
(DIR) Post #2537828 by leyonhjelm@liberdon.com
2019-01-02T09:31:44Z
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@profoundlynerdyI can live with that