Post 1933004 by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #1886686 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:23:16Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
Meanwhile in america...Liberals are idealists. Doesn't matter if an idea works or kills millions. As long as it sounds poetic and righteous then they really dont care if it is effective.Conservatives are quite the opposite. They care more about the end results than how good it sounds on paper. Their problem however is a complete inability to understand the data or interpret it objectively. No matter what the data actually says in their mind it always agrees with them.
(DIR) Post #1886733 by Satyr4Nymph@switter.at
2018-12-10T17:25:03Z
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@freemo Murica!
(DIR) Post #1886982 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:34:55Z
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@freemo I don't consider myself a liberal nor a conservative. I'm just a simple nationalist
(DIR) Post #1887017 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:36:09Z
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@Saederup92 Generally nationalist is used to mean something quite horrible. Something akin to fascist. I presume that is not the way you mean it however.
(DIR) Post #1887052 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:37:46Z
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@freemo Lol nothing even close to a fascist. I mean people are more than welcome here as long as they actually wanna be a part of society and actually wanna contribute to society as well
(DIR) Post #1887064 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:38:10Z
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@freemo @Saederup92 I sit quite gladly Center-Left. I like what I consider to be the common sense coming from that particular area in my local politics.
(DIR) Post #1887079 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:38:21Z
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@Saederup92 Depending on the nuance I see nothing wrong with that.
(DIR) Post #1887147 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:40:56Z
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@Surasanji If the left-right spectrum were a numberline with far left being -10 and the far right being +10 then I would fall exactly at the square root of -1.@Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1887157 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:41:18Z
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@freemo Me neither
(DIR) Post #1887162 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:41:19Z
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@freemo @Saederup92 I, too would like to think of myself as i.
(DIR) Post #1887170 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:42:07Z
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@freemo @Surasanji That's fine too. As long as mutual respect can exist, I see nothing wrong with leaning in different directions
(DIR) Post #1887195 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:43:46Z
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@Saederup92 I think both the right and the left make valid points. I also find that since neither the right nor the left address the valid points of the other side neither is capable of coming up with reasonable solutions that address all the concerns.@Surasanji
(DIR) Post #1887204 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:44:43Z
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@freemo @Surasanji Sadly both sides are sometimes way too busy making each other look bad to actually address anything important
(DIR) Post #1887210 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:45:13Z
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@Saederup92 Very true@Surasanji
(DIR) Post #1887224 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:45:44Z
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@freemo @Saederup92 That is often why I sit fairly in the middle, albeit slightly to the left. I can hear both sides, and agree with points on each side. But, for now, I have to live with a very conservative government who is ABSOLUTELY screwing the pooch. The far left would also be screwing said pooch. Poor pooch. :(
(DIR) Post #1887252 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:46:45Z
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@Surasanji I can understand that. Though I personally feel the "lesser of two evils" mentality is the quickest way to ensure evil prevails.@Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1887286 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:48:04Z
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@freemo @Surasanji That's why it baffels me how the US only has two major political parties
(DIR) Post #1887291 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:48:35Z
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@freemo @Saederup92 I'm not suggesting the center is the lesser of two evils, at least not here in Israel. There are dozens of parties here, and there are some that are specifically in the center: Yesh Atid, for instance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesh_AtidThose are the guys I vote for.
(DIR) Post #1887297 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:49:19Z
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@Saederup92 The USA is a model of example of my concerns and the reason i have developed the stance I have.In the end the truth is I have dealt with many very traumatic life long patterns that directly result from the insanity of the left and the right. Which is why i have a house in the netherlands now and minimize my contact with the USA.@Surasanji
(DIR) Post #1887328 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:50:09Z
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@Surasanji I was just thinking more from the USA terms where "left of center" means "I vote democrat but i disagree with most of what they say". I realize now in your case it probably means something very different.@Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1887374 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:52:58Z
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@freemo @Saederup92 I can see that. We're both expats and left the US for very similar reasons. It's easy to fall into that frame of mind when speaking to someone you know is from the US. Happens to me all the time. :)
(DIR) Post #1887403 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:54:13Z
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@Surasanji I have a bad habit of thinking anyone from the internet is american till I hear otherwise. Part of the reason I moved to mastodon is the lack of americans.@Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1887424 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:55:08Z
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@freemo @Surasanji I've never been to the US but I've been to a few other European countries
(DIR) Post #1887434 by neverfadingwood@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:55:39Z
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@freemo*butts in* The UK is in at least as bad a way as the US currently. Some might argue even worse. Neither main party is the lesser of two evils. *butts out*@Surasanji @Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1887451 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:56:44Z
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@Saederup92 Best to stay away. America is good for two things: 1) making money and financial oppertunity. 2) delicious food that will kill you.@Surasanji
(DIR) Post #1887457 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:56:44Z
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@neverfadingwood @freemo @Surasanji Well. Then it's time to loot the UK again. :^) Hahahaha. I'm joking of course :D
(DIR) Post #1887468 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:57:20Z
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@neverfadingwood I tend to qualify my criticism with "and all english speaking countries" for exactly that reason.@Surasanji @Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1887491 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-12-10T17:58:37Z
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@freemo @Saederup92 Yeah, I hear that. Apart from Mastodon (And QOTO in particular) the vast majority of my internet interaction is with people from the US. I totally get it.
(DIR) Post #1887521 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T18:00:04Z
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@Surasanji I often haf-joke on FB that they need to add an auto-block feature for americans :)@Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1887526 by neverfadingwood@qoto.org
2018-12-10T18:00:07Z
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@freemoFair point. 😊 Today's shenanigans in the House of Commons has just shown up how bad the Conservatives and Labour are. Roll on Scottish independence. @Surasanji @Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1887528 by Saederup92@qoto.org
2018-12-10T18:00:31Z
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@Surasanji @freemo As a little off topic I've been on this instance for around an hour and I think it's more civil than .social
(DIR) Post #1887631 by Surasanji@qoto.org
2018-12-10T18:05:42Z
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@Saederup92 @freemo Yeah, that's one thing I love about #QOTO . The entire idea is to teach other people and to ask questions about things. Abuse is out of the question, though. Always.
(DIR) Post #1887789 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-10T18:10:03Z
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@Surasanji Absolutely. Plus i find the environment is so nurturing of that that any true abusers are exceedingly rare. I cant remember the last time we had to block anyone for outright abuse. Usually a talking to does the trick if someone is getting feisty.@Saederup92
(DIR) Post #1931294 by celesteh@algonoise.social
2018-12-12T12:04:00+00:00
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@freemo several years ago when it was first revealed that a lot of expensive tennis shoes were made by children in sweatshop conditions, a prominent right wing newspaper columnist wrote that o6f they'd known of this when buying their most recent shoes of this sort, they would have bought two pairs. They went on to explain a grand theory about how child labor was good actually because of economic growth and a grand theory of development and a lot of ideas about things getting better in the long term. What's confusing about America is that there's no mainstream left. What you're describing are two forms of being very far right.
(DIR) Post #1931295 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-12T12:20:02Z
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@celesteh There absolutely is a mainstream left in america. The difference is they just lack the sort of rational debate you'd get out of a leftist in most areas.Keep in mind i am using the neo-left vs right scale not the classical left definition. If we use classical left as the definition then I would tend to agree with you. Problem is classic-left in america is wrongfully viewed as just a varient of right.
(DIR) Post #1931428 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-12T12:29:31Z
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@celesteh Though to be fair most of the world rarely uses classic left to mean left either, everywhere uses some variation of neo-liberal usually specific to their own local definition of left and right. More often than not they use left to mean socialism in some form, rather than its classical definition which is in many ways contrary to this.
(DIR) Post #1932911 by celesteh@algonoise.social
2018-12-12T13:57:11+00:00
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@freemo neo-liberals come from the chicago school of economics. They supported Pinochet. This is not left in any sense. The parties in the US are organisations designed to advance the power of their elected members. They are not ideological. The US parties do have platforms and right now these are Tory vs Fascist. While one party is definitely to the left of the other, it's not even centre-right in historical terms. It's just right wing - even by the standards of the US over the last 50 years. Some important nods to individual liberties confuse things slightly, but taking a wider historical view, it's kind of a Whig position, which is very much about protecting powers of the owning classes.
(DIR) Post #1933004 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-12T14:27:26Z
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@celesteh I'm not talking parties, I think it is obvious to many that the democratic party often has candidates who are neither neo-liberal or classical liberal.I am talking about people, and there is no shortage of the left in america, by that i mean "Supporting a government whose focus is taxation aimed at wealth distribution as well as a high reliance on government regulation" which tends to be descriptive of the left in most ountries including the US.While in and of itself this isnt always a devestating decision in america it is applied with a toddler level of understanding that makes it nearly impossible to succeed. One day with more education perhaps the left and right in america might make sense, be regardless left and right does apply.
(DIR) Post #1986962 by celesteh@algonoise.social
2018-12-14T00:30:21+00:00
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@freemo Your definition of 'neo-liberal' is so far off from how the term is used in most English-language discourse that I'm afraid we can't can't discuss further as we're talking at cross-purposes.
(DIR) Post #1986963 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-14T16:50:54Z
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@celesteh Correct I am using the definition most of the world uses in general conversation, not a technical term (also the definition provided by wikipedia).
(DIR) Post #1987035 by celesteh@algonoise.social
2018-12-14T16:52:28+00:00
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@freemo You're talking about the post war consensus. Neoliberalism is the system that came after that, as promoted by Thatcher and Reagan.
(DIR) Post #1987036 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-14T16:53:27Z
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@celesteh I am refering to what is generally meant by "left" specifically the definition provided by wikipedia, to quote:The term left-wing can also refer to "the radical, reforming, or **socialist** section of a political party or system".
(DIR) Post #1987177 by celesteh@algonoise.social
2018-12-14T16:55:55+00:00
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@freemo .... if wikipedia says that reagan and thatcher were left wing, you may want to take that with a tiny grain of salt
(DIR) Post #1987178 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-14T16:58:00Z
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@celesteh The specific definition isnt particularly important for the assertion I was making which really just boils down to which of the two groups a person identifies as being in. Which in turns dictates the sort of people they are around and the habits they pick up.
(DIR) Post #1987198 by celesteh@algonoise.social
2018-12-14T16:56:47+00:00
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@freemo Anyway, this has been fun, but I'd prefer to avoid arguments over the definitions of words, so I won't be replying further. Thanks very much.
(DIR) Post #1987199 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-14T16:58:49Z
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@celesteh Good move, the definition was never really the important part of what was being said anyway. So I agree, mostly just a distraction.
(DIR) Post #2064432 by freemo@qoto.org
2018-12-17T23:40:47Z
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@SecondJon I think "left" means a lot of different things to different people. For the purposes of this meme it mostly just means whatever you self describe as with the caveat that libertarians are not "lefy" or "righty" since they are classically liberal so not really self described as either group.