Post 1862554 by baldur@toot.cafe
(DIR) More posts by baldur@toot.cafe
(DIR) Post #1862139 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T18:48:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I see that programmers are revealing their ignorance on Twitter by saying things like 'certifications are bullshit, imagine demanding that your carpenter be hammer certified?'. That's pretty much exactly how it works in countries that aren't libertarian hellscapes like the USIn a _lot_ of countries the various forms of carpentry and specialised construction work are legally regulated, many mandating specific forms of education before you can even work as one.
(DIR) Post #1862140 by xenophora@mastodon.art
2018-12-09T18:50:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur You can hire an unlicensed carpenter in the U.S., but if it's for any remotely important job you probably don't want to. Had our kitchen done over last year and *everyone* was licensed and bonded.I might let an unlicensed carpenter make a cutting board for me, if it was someone I knew well and trusted. ;)
(DIR) Post #1862141 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T18:51:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xenophora Yeah, people in tech seem to forget how incredibly useful these licensing schemes are for the person who is buying the work.
(DIR) Post #1862142 by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2018-12-09T18:55:24Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur @xenophora I think this gets way more complicated with software. Housing inspectors ensure a basic level of safety. Some engineering fields, like the software for aerospace, requires a super high degree of verification. Your phone's to-do list, not so much. No one will die if that to-do list doesn't work, and if someone will, you contract out a HIPPA approved medical entry system.e.g SHIELD security certification is useless because it's difficult to objectively measure pen-testers.
(DIR) Post #1862312 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T19:01:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @xenophora In many countries, hairdressers are regulated. Basic carpentry as well. Psychologists and interior decorators in many countries both require you to get a relevant university degree before you can use the job title. None of this requires inspection. Jobs whose impact on society and the world is less trivial than software by an order of magnitude get at least some level of regulation in most western countries. Software isn't going to avoid this forever.
(DIR) Post #1862424 by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2018-12-09T19:06:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur @xenophora In the US hairdressers are regulated too, but it's very basic certification. Carpenters aren't so much certified as bonded/insured so if they fuck up, there is money to cover that. I honestly just don't think there's any point. It's difficult enough for companies to tell if someone is a good developer during the interview process. It's not light flying a plane that's a skill with a lot of known safety absolutes. What do you think a software license test would even look like?
(DIR) Post #1862498 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T19:09:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @xenophora That isn't how these sort of regulations work for example in Northern Europe. They tend to first require that you need a specific degree to use a job title or be hired for a specific job. Then they tend to make sure that relevant regulations (like accessibility and safety for example) are well covered in the curriculum.Like I said, I don't know if this is a good idea for software but I think, given how awful tech is turning out to be, it probably is inevitable.
(DIR) Post #1862553 by xenophora@mastodon.art
2018-12-09T19:05:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur @djsumdog That's true here, too. (Hairdressers, etc.) A U.S. programmer who claims to not know as much is probably just messing with you.
(DIR) Post #1862554 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T19:06:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xenophora @djsumdog They might also be just plain ignorant about how other professions work.
(DIR) Post #1862555 by xenophora@mastodon.art
2018-12-09T19:08:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur @djsumdog That'd be particularly sad to me. Haven't they ever *worked* for someone in, say, plumbing... making sure that the latter's webpage or site prominently says "Bonded & Insured" someplace where prospective customers can see it right away? o_0
(DIR) Post #1862556 by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2018-12-09T19:12:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xenophora @baldur I still think that's fundamentally different. Plumbers go through basic certification to know how pipes to together, which compounds to use, proper lengths for flows and gravity feeds. If it's life threatening, you need inspection too (electrical work, gas lines, etc.) and then the contractor has to fix it if it's bad. There's not a big equivalent in software. You can say, "Well SQL injection and security" but how would you test that? Per language?
(DIR) Post #1862610 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T19:14:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @xenophora There are very very strong parellels in developing user-facing software. Namely, accessibility, privacy, and ethics tend to be major concerns in regulating many many job titles. Like I said, not sure if it's a good idea, but the parallels are too strong to ignore forever.
(DIR) Post #1862624 by xenophora@mastodon.art
2018-12-09T19:13:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur @djsumdog Tradespeople here tend to come up through apprenticeships, often getting in through family or friends already connected to Union shops. Or they go through accredited beauty schools and so on.Curious if the Libertarians' objections aren't based on fears of cronyism or identity-based discrimination, or concern that only people who already have money can hope to access these professions. Oh, wait. That's not surprising at ALL. :D
(DIR) Post #1862625 by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2018-12-09T19:15:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xenophora @baldur Just wan to be clear: I'm not a libertarian by any means. I'm for regulation and believe socialism is required for a country to be high income (public parks, highways, safe municipal water, etc.).
(DIR) Post #1862677 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T19:18:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @xenophora Yeah, same. And, like you, I'm not entirely sure regulation of this kind is going to actually make software better. Just saying that we're fast reaching a point where people start demanding more regulation over all aspects of the software industry and this is an obvious early tactic that builds on what many societies are already doing.
(DIR) Post #1862681 by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2018-12-09T19:18:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur @xenophora Government websites already have accessibility requirements in most states. Health insurance providers have strict regulations in the US called HIPPA. When I worked for Universities, we had similar privacy requirements are FERPA. Credit cards have PCI compliance. There is a lot of regulation already.If you required minimum education for software programmers that gets messy. Most do not have Uni degrees. What about dev boot camps? A programmer is not a doctor after all.
(DIR) Post #1862726 by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2018-12-09T19:20:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur @xenophora I understand what you're saying. This has been an interesting thread and I think a lot of what you're saying are valid concerns; will give us something to think about for sure. 😀
(DIR) Post #1868212 by csravens@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T23:21:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@baldur @djsumdog @xenophora the current left-of-center and libertarian consensus on hairdresser licensing is that it's racist, and it's being rolled back in many places
(DIR) Post #1868213 by xenophora@mastodon.art
2018-12-09T23:25:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@csravens @baldur @djsumdog Right in the middle of dinner prep, but if you have a link I'll read it later.
(DIR) Post #1868214 by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2018-12-10T00:06:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@xenophora @csravens I remember this John Stossel report he did back in the 90s that might be related to what @baldur is referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kij_TtBXU8
(DIR) Post #1868277 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-10T00:12:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @xenophora @csravens I wrote what I wrote with the existing job title regulation in many northern European countries in mind (e.g. Iceland where the term 'tölvunarfræðingur' is already a legally protected job title that only those who have graduated with a comp. sci. degree can use).This is already happening and most countries aren't the same regulatory and licensing shitshows that the US tends to be.
(DIR) Post #1869423 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T18:48:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
(And tbf, a lot of jobs in the US are regulated like this.) When people are talking about using certification to regulate coders they aren't talking about relying on the bullshit certification scams the software industry uses to squeeze more money out of management.More like 'you have to have this 3 year degree to use this job title'
(DIR) Post #1869424 by baldur@toot.cafe
2018-12-09T18:50:46Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
I don't know if this form of regulation is a good idea or not but I do think that it is inevitable in the long run.The more society finds out about bullshit or obviously evil practices in tech, the less effective tech's mantra of 'regulation would make things worse' is going to be. At some point people are going to say: 'no, it can't be worse, you need to be regulated on every level, from employee certification up to market share and corporate ownership.'