Post 1329509 by aven@sealion.club
(DIR) More posts by aven@sealion.club
(DIR) Post #1320104 by aven@sealion.club
2018-11-19T12:10:00+00:00
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"You have to really want what you're wishing for. You have to make the proper sacrifices to get it. It can't just be some whim. You have to ask for something that you would rather not have, which is usually wisdom." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDIx31vJ6yk
(DIR) Post #1320105 by aven@sealion.club
2018-11-19T12:15:33+00:00
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"Somebody asked me about prayer, they asked me if I prayed, and I thought, it depends what you mean by that, exactly. But, I do think that if you sit on the edge of your bed, and you ask what foolish thing you're doing to make it worse, that you'll get an answer, right now, but it won't be the one you want, but it might be the one that if you listen to, would set things straight."
(DIR) Post #1320106 by sim@sealion.club
2018-11-19T12:20:54+00:00
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@aven Instead of talking to a higher power, I usually talk to myself or others I know. It's kinda the same thing but more productive. Plus you can take more ownership over the ideas you come up with yourself than when asking a higher power where you may diminish your own ability in favour of thinking it came from them instead. When it was in your head the whole time.
(DIR) Post #1320837 by aven@sealion.club
2018-11-19T12:51:06+00:00
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@sim That's true that the higher power aspect of it diminished the role of the one praying, but I think that it offers a kind of intimacy and vulnerability and humility that talking to another person or even oneself doesn't allow. Especially with the idea of an all-loving and infinitely merciful higher power that keeps total confidentiality, it frees the inner mind from fear of judgment, so it can dare to ask the most personal questions. I'm not a believer in organized religion, so I wonder if a deist kind of 'divinity within me' works for this. Because the subconscious me is different than the conscious me, and tapping into it is different than talking to myself at a conscious level. Finally, I think there's room for more than one kind of prayer. Just as meditation can be done sitting or walking or other ways, prayer may be done with other people or alone, or even with an art or craft. These can all be forms of communion. Maybe I'm drifting too far toward the abstract.
(DIR) Post #1320838 by sim@sealion.club
2018-11-19T13:03:09+00:00
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@aven I suppose that it depends on what you want out of the prayer. If it is direction in life, then you are better off talking to yourself. If it is just the feeling of having told someone and been open and honest, then praying to a higher power could work. But I still think it is better if you do this with yourself or with a trusted person. Well, you can practice some role playing which I think is encouraged in therapy. Where you are both your parent/whoever and your childhood self/yourself, and you learn to treat your inner child with compassion... or learn where fears stem from. You provide yourself with the comfort you need. It can be done.
(DIR) Post #1320842 by aven@sealion.club
2018-11-19T12:52:39+00:00
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@sim if they're interested, I'm curious what @dolus has to think about this topic, and what deist perspectives might be.
(DIR) Post #1320843 by Dolus@pl.smuglo.li
2018-11-19T13:03:40.338523Z
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un@aven @sim Praying is unlikely to ever actually work, but it can be 'good' for you, yes.
(DIR) Post #1320974 by sim@sealion.club
2018-11-19T13:11:37+00:00
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@dolus @aven I would just be cautious about it. I used to be spiritual, and created a higher power of my own, perhaps for my own comfort... but it led me down a path that was destructive. I ended up blurring the lines between reality and the fantasies I had imagined up and almost lost my sanity over it all. I damaged my psyche and I cannot undo it. Just to claw my way back, I had to give up on all that is religious and spiritual. I didn't allow myself to use words attached to it until I was in a better place. Because it would be too tempting to fall back down that rabbit hole. I couldn't reconcile my spirituality or my childhood religion back then. I had to choose myself.
(DIR) Post #1321000 by Dolus@pl.smuglo.li
2018-11-19T13:13:10.328113Z
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@sim @aven You didn't have to give up on anything. Cant take a part of the Bible literally? Then don't. But don't throw the good memes out with the bad.
(DIR) Post #1321105 by sim@sealion.club
2018-11-19T13:20:11+00:00
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@dolus @aven You don't realise... if I were a christian, I would have lived to hate myself more than I do now. Plus I didn't want to be a hypocrite. But I did actually have to give up on it all in that moment back then so that I could ground myself again. I was insane at that time. Like mentally insane to the point I could have needed to be hospitalised if I carried on.
(DIR) Post #1321265 by Dolus@pl.smuglo.li
2018-11-19T13:31:20.868675Z
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@sim @aven I'm not telling you to be a Chrisitan. I'm saying 'all or nothing' is rarely a course charted on the map of reason.
(DIR) Post #1321389 by sim@sealion.club
2018-11-19T13:36:32+00:00
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@dolus @aven I guess I'm very all or nothing sometimes. I was desperate back then. This was the only way that would work for me back then because otherwise I would continue to be haunted by the thoughts that consumed me. Detaching myself from the thoughts that led to the delusion and my anguish was the way forwards. It took me a long time to leave that mindset. But for ordinary people that don't suffer from delusions, then I would agree with you.
(DIR) Post #1329461 by aven@sealion.club
2018-11-19T19:43:39+00:00
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@dolus @sim Yeah, I'm not suggesting prayer for supernatural reasons, but rather to kind of commune with one's subconscious. Maybe better words would be meditation or contemplation or introspection. I guess I'm using the word 'prayer' because it does seem kind of mystical to me, and I imagine that when someone prays and asks "What should I do?" and listens for an answer, the deist interpretation would be that the answer comes from their subconscious. In the music video linked in my OP, JBP (Jordan Peterson) likens such contemplation to dreaming, noting that dreaming is very strange, and it's more like something within you is dreaming because you don't control your dreams, alluding to a kind of divinity in that something. I wonder if this notion of divinity is compatible with deism, in the sense that it's non-intervening, but connects the mystery of consciousness to the spiritual/soul. ...or maybe I'm just making a God of the Gaps with "we don't understand neuroscience of subconscious therefore it must be God". I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I find it intriguing. Also, I dig JBP's rational yet spiritual takes, and they remind me of deism.
(DIR) Post #1329462 by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2018-11-19T19:49:59Z
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@aven @sim @Dolus I knew an apostate Christian who still prayed as a form of meditation. I often practice mindful mediation when I got into the office; reserve some time in a phone room or conference room. Mindful meditation can really help create space between thoughts and reduce stress.On a tangent, there is also the theory of the bicambral mind (made populate recent in West World) where early humans may have 'heard god' because the bridge between brain regions wasn't as fully developed.
(DIR) Post #1329509 by aven@sealion.club
2018-11-19T19:07:53+00:00
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@sim >Well, you can practice some role playing which I think is encouraged in therapy. Where you are both your parent/whoever and your childhood self/yourself, and you learn to treat your inner child with compassion... or learn where fears stem from. You provide yourself with the comfort you need. It can be done. I want to learn more about that. I have an aversion to being mastered over, which generally I like, but it extends to an unhealthy unwillingness to even master over myself. This leaves me with disorganization and a lack of self-discipline. I want to learn to be my own keeper better. Can you suggest any source or learn more about this roleplay from?
(DIR) Post #1329510 by sim@sealion.club
2018-11-19T19:52:01+00:00
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@aven Understood. I'm not too sure what its name is called... but I have been looking to find something like this. Narrative therapy sounds like it might be useful for you... you can follow this link to learn more about it: https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/types/narrative-therapy It's also quite similar to this approach: https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/types/voice-dialogue I usually visit good therapy to read up on issues I am facing or similar sites. But this roleplay you can really just do yourself by adopting a child self and a parent self, or similar. Perhaps more of a protector type. Just explore different aspects of your psyche. This is just one way that my brain is better able to understand myself, by creating a persona to act out an aspect of myself and then listen. If you listen to yourself then you can work out what it is that you are feeling and how to resolve an internal issue. It may take time for some things though! It's a process.
(DIR) Post #1329680 by aven@sealion.club
2018-11-19T19:52:50+00:00
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@sim @dolus I do have ambivalence about the mystical, and this is a big reason why. Delusions, by their nature, are difficult to discern from truth, and it's very easy to fool oneself, especially with notions of holiness or purity or transcendence or enlightenment, that feels -good-, weighted on the side of the delusion. I'm apprehensive of the mystical, because I think I'm also of a temperament to be seduced by it. I'm sorry you went through that, and I'm glad you came back from it.
(DIR) Post #1329681 by sim@sealion.club
2018-11-19T20:03:32+00:00
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@aven @dolus I think we are in the same boat. It is a bit like being easily seduced by the notion... and I would much rather keep my sanity and remain grounded in reality. Otherwise I might get swept away by it. Thanks... I'm glad to be away from that chapter in my life too. I am better able to handle humouring the ideas now but I do still have a rejection in place to prevent me from slipping back to that dark place.