add some tests - webdump_tests - Testfiles for webdump
(HTM) git clone git://git.codemadness.org/webdump_tests
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(DIR) README
---
(DIR) commit 5fa5f70c76f0042c08e0956bdce0dbc7a66d7f69
(DIR) parent d34f3c8b1565c1f0eaec2b0c1a5102a7c63ebb68
(HTM) Author: Hiltjo Posthuma <hiltjo@codemadness.org>
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 22:26:57 +0200
add some tests
Diffstat:
A realworld/hackernews_index.html | 171 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A realworld/hackernews_item.html | 809 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A realworld/posix_opengroup_frames.h… | 34 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A realworld/posix_opengroup_mkdir.ht… | 354 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A realworld/undeadly_org.html | 256 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A realworld/xfce_org_docuwiki.html | 710 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A tests/embed.html | 6 ++++++
A tests/iframe.html | 1 +
A tests/unknown_entity.html | 1 +
9 files changed, 2342 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)
---
(DIR) diff --git a/realworld/hackernews_index.html b/realworld/hackernews_index.html
@@ -0,0 +1,171 @@
+<html lang="en" op="news"><head><meta name="referrer" content="origin"><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0"><link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="news.css?SHesn9eAgOUdmXUfxZ4i">
+ <link rel="shortcut icon" href="favicon.ico">
+ <link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="RSS" href="rss">
+ <title>Hacker News</title></head><body><center><table id="hnmain" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="85%" bgcolor="#f6f6ef">
+ <tr><td bgcolor="#ff6600"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="padding:2px"><tr><td style="width:18px;padding-right:4px"><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com"><img src="y18.svg" width="18" height="18" style="border:1px white solid; display:block"></a></td>
+ <td style="line-height:12pt; height:10px;"><span class="pagetop"><b class="hnname"><a href="news">Hacker News</a></b>
+ <a href="newest">new</a> | <a href="front">past</a> | <a href="newcomments">comments</a> | <a href="ask">ask</a> | <a href="show">show</a> | <a href="jobs">jobs</a> | <a href="submit">submit</a> </span></td><td style="text-align:right;padding-right:4px;"><span class="pagetop">
+ <a href="login?goto=news">login</a>
+ </span></td>
+ </tr></table></td></tr>
+<tr id="pagespace" title="" style="height:10px"></tr><tr><td><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
+ <tr class='athing' id='37506654'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">1.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37506654'href='vote?id=37506654&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap" rel="noreferrer">XFCE Wayland Development Roadmap</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=xfce.org"><span class="sitestr">xfce.org</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37506654">138 points</span> by <a href="user?id=LaSombra" class="hnuser">LaSombra</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:16:51"><a href="item?id=37506654">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506654"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37506654&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37506654">68 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37492663'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">2.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37492663'href='vote?id=37492663&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://wandereatwrite.com/how-i-got-paid-to-live-in-antarctica/" rel="noreferrer">I got paid to live in Antarctica</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=wandereatwrite.com"><span class="sitestr">wandereatwrite.com</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37492663">38 points</span> by <a href="user?id=imadj" class="hnuser">imadj</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T05:46:35"><a href="item?id=37492663">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37492663"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37492663&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37492663">5 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37506386'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">3.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37506386'href='vote?id=37506386&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://noyb.eu/en/how-mobile-apps-illegally-share-your-personal-data" rel="noreferrer">How mobile apps illegally share your personal data</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=noyb.eu"><span class="sitestr">noyb.eu</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37506386">213 points</span> by <a href="user?id=latexr" class="hnuser">latexr</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T08:32:31"><a href="item?id=37506386">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506386"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37506386&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37506386">104 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37506190'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">4.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37506190'href='vote?id=37506190&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20230914075444" rel="noreferrer">3D printing on OpenBSD? Yes, that’s a thing</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=undeadly.org"><span class="sitestr">undeadly.org</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37506190">35 points</span> by <a href="user?id=peter_hansteen" class="hnuser">peter_hansteen</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T07:55:18"><a href="item?id=37506190">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506190"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37506190&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37506190">4 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37494595'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">5.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37494595'href='vote?id=37494595&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://www.masteringemacs.org/article/lets-write-a-treesitter-major-mode" rel="noreferrer">Let's write a treesitter major mode for Emacs</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=masteringemacs.org"><span class="sitestr">masteringemacs.org</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37494595">108 points</span> by <a href="user?id=nanna" class="hnuser">nanna</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T09:56:55"><a href="item?id=37494595">9 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37494595"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37494595&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37494595">35 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37505687'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">6.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37505687'href='vote?id=37505687&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://github.com/ray-project/llm-applications/blob/main/notebooks/rag.ipynb">A Comprehensive Guide for Building Rag-Based LLM Applications</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=github.com/ray-project"><span class="sitestr">github.com/ray-project</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37505687">39 points</span> by <a href="user?id=robertnishihara" class="hnuser">robertnishihara</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T06:33:10"><a href="item?id=37505687">5 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37505687"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37505687&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37505687">8 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37501231'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">7.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37501231'href='vote?id=37501231&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://shreevatsa.wordpress.com/2010/06/04/dont-mess-with-a-genius/" rel="noreferrer">Don’t mess with a genius (2010)</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=shreevatsa.wordpress.com"><span class="sitestr">shreevatsa.wordpress.com</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37501231">375 points</span> by <a href="user?id=wglb" class="hnuser">wglb</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T20:21:30"><a href="item?id=37501231">15 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37501231"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37501231&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37501231">93 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37506640'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">8.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37506640'href='vote?id=37506640&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://johnnydecimal.com" rel="noreferrer">Johnny Decimal: A System to Organize Projects</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=johnnydecimal.com"><span class="sitestr">johnnydecimal.com</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37506640">51 points</span> by <a href="user?id=trauco" class="hnuser">trauco</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:14:54"><a href="item?id=37506640">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506640"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37506640&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37506640">51 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37492576'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">9.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37492576'href='vote?id=37492576&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="http://muratbuffalo.blogspot.com/2023/09/metastable-failures-in-wild.html" rel="noreferrer">Metastable Failures in the Wild</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=muratbuffalo.blogspot.com"><span class="sitestr">muratbuffalo.blogspot.com</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37492576">14 points</span> by <a href="user?id=g0xA52A2A" class="hnuser">g0xA52A2A</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T05:31:35"><a href="item?id=37492576">3 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37492576"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37492576&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37492576">2 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37477147'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">10.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37477147'href='vote?id=37477147&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://blog.shalvah.me/posts/diving-into-concurrent-rate-limiters-mutexes-semaphores" rel="noreferrer">Exploring concurrent rate limiters, mutexes, semaphores</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=shalvah.me"><span class="sitestr">shalvah.me</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37477147">21 points</span> by <a href="user?id=nalgeon" class="hnuser">nalgeon</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-12T05:18:36"><a href="item?id=37477147">5 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37477147"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37477147&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37477147">discuss</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37485234'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">11.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37485234'href='vote?id=37485234&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/FM-Radio-Wave-Based-Early-Earthquake-Detection-S.-A./9c16db904623d7aa794ea90ae7d0067d6ea71d96" rel="noreferrer">FM radio wave-based early earthquake detection</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=semanticscholar.org"><span class="sitestr">semanticscholar.org</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37485234">80 points</span> by <a href="user?id=1970-01-01" class="hnuser">1970-01-01</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-12T18:18:47"><a href="item?id=37485234">10 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37485234"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37485234&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37485234">39 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37497345'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">12.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37497345'href='vote?id=37497345&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://fly.io/blog/skip-the-api/">Skip the API, ship your database</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=fly.io"><span class="sitestr">fly.io</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37497345">266 points</span> by <a href="user?id=danielskogly" class="hnuser">danielskogly</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T14:37:55"><a href="item?id=37497345">14 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37497345"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37497345&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37497345">190 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37507226'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">13.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37507226'href='vote?id=37507226&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/calif-passes-strongest-right-to-repair-bill-yet-requiring-7-years-of-parts/" rel="noreferrer">Calif. passes strongest right-to-repair bill yet, requiring 7 years of parts</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=arstechnica.com"><span class="sitestr">arstechnica.com</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37507226">22 points</span> by <a href="user?id=thunderbong" class="hnuser">thunderbong</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:42:24"><a href="item?id=37507226">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507226"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37507226&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37507226">7 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37477446'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">14.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37477446'href='vote?id=37477446&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://www.win.tue.nl/~wstomv/edu/2ip30/references/criteria_for_modularization.pdf" rel="noreferrer">On the criteria to be used in decomposing systems into modules (1971) [pdf]</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=tue.nl"><span class="sitestr">tue.nl</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37477446">55 points</span> by <a href="user?id=mavelikara" class="hnuser">mavelikara</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-12T06:18:43"><a href="item?id=37477446">8 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37477446"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37477446&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37477446">12 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37496589'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">15.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37496589'href='vote?id=37496589&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://meduza.io/en/feature/2023/09/13/the-million-dollar-reporter" rel="noreferrer">Meduza co-founder's phone infected with Pegasus</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=meduza.io"><span class="sitestr">meduza.io</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37496589">420 points</span> by <a href="user?id=Klaster_1" class="hnuser">Klaster_1</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T13:39:17"><a href="item?id=37496589">22 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37496589"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37496589&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37496589">256 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37478347'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">16.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37478347'href='vote?id=37478347&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://esolangs.org/wiki/Birb" rel="noreferrer">Birb: Programming with bird emojis</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=esolangs.org"><span class="sitestr">esolangs.org</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37478347">124 points</span> by <a href="user?id=marvinborner" class="hnuser">marvinborner</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-12T08:50:37"><a href="item?id=37478347">12 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37478347"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37478347&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37478347">22 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37505553'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">17.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37505553'href='vote?id=37505553&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://www.bitecode.dev/p/the-easy-way-to-concurrency-and-parallelism" rel="noreferrer">The easy way to concurrency and parallelism with Python stdlib</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=bitecode.dev"><span class="sitestr">bitecode.dev</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37505553">17 points</span> by <a href="user?id=olsgaarddk" class="hnuser">olsgaarddk</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T06:14:10"><a href="item?id=37505553">5 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37505553"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37505553&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37505553">4 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37502218'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">18.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37502218'href='vote?id=37502218&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://www.rpginabox.com/" rel="noreferrer">RPG in a Box: A grid-based, voxel-style game engine built on Godot</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=rpginabox.com"><span class="sitestr">rpginabox.com</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37502218">137 points</span> by <a href="user?id=clessg" class="hnuser">clessg</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T21:51:34"><a href="item?id=37502218">13 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37502218"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37502218&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37502218">13 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37493633'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">19.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37493633'href='vote?id=37493633&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://kottke.org/23/09/psycho-and-the-end-of-the-continuously-showing-movie" rel="noreferrer">Psycho and the end of the continuously showing movie</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=kottke.org"><span class="sitestr">kottke.org</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37493633">55 points</span> by <a href="user?id=ZeljkoS" class="hnuser">ZeljkoS</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T08:06:52"><a href="item?id=37493633">8 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37493633"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37493633&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37493633">36 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37498979'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">20.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37498979'href='vote?id=37498979&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://mullvad.net/en/blog/2023/9/13/bug-in-macos-14-sonoma-prevents-our-app-from-working/" rel="noreferrer">Bug in macOS 14 Sonoma prevents our app from working</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=mullvad.net"><span class="sitestr">mullvad.net</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37498979">934 points</span> by <a href="user?id=eptcyka" class="hnuser">eptcyka</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T17:05:44"><a href="item?id=37498979">18 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37498979"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37498979&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37498979">217 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37502258'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">21.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37502258'href='vote?id=37502258&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://kraktoos.com/posts/dont-use-discord-as-forum/" rel="noreferrer">Don't use Discord as your Q&A forum</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=kraktoos.com"><span class="sitestr">kraktoos.com</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37502258">378 points</span> by <a href="user?id=kraktoos" class="hnuser">kraktoos</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T21:54:49"><a href="item?id=37502258">13 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37502258"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37502258&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37502258">230 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37499042'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">22.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37499042'href='vote?id=37499042&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://matthieu.io/blog/2023/09/13/million-dollar-homepage-garden/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">My Little MillionDollarHomepage Garden</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=matthieu.io"><span class="sitestr">matthieu.io</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37499042">13 points</span> by <a href="user?id=matthieucan" class="hnuser">matthieucan</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T17:11:15"><a href="item?id=37499042">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37499042"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37499042&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37499042">4 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37507414'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">23.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37507414'href='vote?id=37507414&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Linux Phones (2022)</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=madaidans-insecurities.github.io"><span class="sitestr">madaidans-insecurities.github.io</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37507414">8 points</span> by <a href="user?id=walterbell" class="hnuser">walterbell</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:10:23"><a href="item?id=37507414">40 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507414"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37507414&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37507414">4 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37505798'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">24.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37505798'href='vote?id=37505798&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://ajxs.me/blog/How_Far_Back_in_Time_Can_I_Take_My_Websites_Design.html" rel="noreferrer">How Far Back in Time Can I Take My Website's Design?</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=ajxs.me"><span class="sitestr">ajxs.me</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37505798">15 points</span> by <a href="user?id=FLpxpyJ" class="hnuser">FLpxpyJ</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T06:54:22"><a href="item?id=37505798">4 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37505798"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37505798&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37505798">3 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37502903'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">25.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37502903'href='vote?id=37502903&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://retrocmp.de/imsai/imsai_p01_restoration.htm" rel="noreferrer">Restoration of an IMSAI 8080</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=retrocmp.de"><span class="sitestr">retrocmp.de</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37502903">28 points</span> by <a href="user?id=nickt" class="hnuser">nickt</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T23:15:07"><a href="item?id=37502903">8 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37502903"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37502903&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37502903">11 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37504559'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">26.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37504559'href='vote?id=37504559&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://www.mdc.edu/north/math/pdf/hurricanes-math.pdf" rel="noreferrer">Mathematics of Hurricane Modeling and Forecasting (2008, ppt) [pdf]</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=mdc.edu"><span class="sitestr">mdc.edu</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37504559">28 points</span> by <a href="user?id=ed_westin" class="hnuser">ed_westin</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T03:16:47"><a href="item?id=37504559">8 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37504559"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37504559&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37504559">1 comment</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37477685'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">27.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37477685'href='vote?id=37477685&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://alexeymk.com/2023/09/11/statistical-significance-on-a-shoestring-budget.html" rel="noreferrer">Statistical significance on a shoestring budget</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=alexeymk.com"><span class="sitestr">alexeymk.com</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37477685">51 points</span> by <a href="user?id=AlexeyMK" class="hnuser">AlexeyMK</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-12T07:04:49"><a href="item?id=37477685">11 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37477685"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37477685&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37477685">17 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37503731'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">28.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37503731'href='vote?id=37503731&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://www.trisul.org/blog/detecting-ssh-tunnels/" rel="noreferrer">Detecting SSH Tunnels (2017)</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=trisul.org"><span class="sitestr">trisul.org</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37503731">53 points</span> by <a href="user?id=anderspitman" class="hnuser">anderspitman</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T01:16:31"><a href="item?id=37503731">10 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37503731"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37503731&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37503731">14 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37502329'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">29.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37502329'href='vote?id=37502329&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="http://prize.hutter1.net/" rel="noreferrer">Hutter Prize for compressing human knowledge</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=hutter1.net"><span class="sitestr">hutter1.net</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37502329">182 points</span> by <a href="user?id=kelseyfrog" class="hnuser">kelseyfrog</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T22:03:56"><a href="item?id=37502329">13 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37502329"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37502329&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37502329">161 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class='athing' id='37498142'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank">30.</span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37498142'href='vote?id=37498142&how=up&goto=news'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://caoyuan.scripts.mit.edu/ir_spec.html" rel="noreferrer">A DIY near-IR spectrometer</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=scripts.mit.edu"><span class="sitestr">scripts.mit.edu</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37498142">345 points</span> by <a href="user?id=johnmaguire" class="hnuser">johnmaguire</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-13T15:33:28"><a href="item?id=37498142">20 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37498142"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37498142&goto=news">hide</a> | <a href="item?id=37498142">69 comments</a> </span>
+ </td></tr>
+ <tr class="spacer" style="height:5px"></tr>
+ <tr class="morespace" style="height:10px"></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td>
+ <td class='title'><a href='?p=2' class='morelink' rel='next'>More</a></td> </tr>
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+ <tr class='athing' id='37506654'>
+ <td align="right" valign="top" class="title"><span class="rank"></span></td> <td valign="top" class="votelinks"><center><a id='up_37506654'href='vote?id=37506654&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center></td><td class="title"><span class="titleline"><a href="https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap" rel="noreferrer">XFCE Wayland Development Roadmap</a><span class="sitebit comhead"> (<a href="from?site=xfce.org"><span class="sitestr">xfce.org</span></a>)</span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td class="subtext"><span class="subline">
+ <span class="score" id="score_37506654">138 points</span> by <a href="user?id=LaSombra" class="hnuser">LaSombra</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:16:51"><a href="item?id=37506654">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506654"></span> | <a href="hide?id=37506654&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654">hide</a> | <a href="https://hn.algolia.com/?query=XFCE%20Wayland%20Development%20Roadmap&type=story&dateRange=all&sort=byDate&storyText=false&prefix&page=0" class="hnpast">past</a> | <a href="fave?id=37506654&auth=1f59740a6f0eaeb7c0dfd164b59abb378f2607c4">favorite</a> | <a href="item?id=37506654">71 comments</a> </span>
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+ <tr style="height:10px"></tr><tr><td colspan="2"></td><td><form action="comment" method="post"><input type="hidden" name="parent" value="37506654"><input type="hidden" name="goto" value="item?id=37506654"><input type="hidden" name="hmac" value="4e62ebebafe3caba4da6e906e82d12d455b9dd9a"><textarea name="text" rows="8" cols="80" wrap="virtual"></textarea><br><br>
+<input type="submit" value="add comment"></form></td></tr> </table><br><br><table border="0" class='comment-tree'>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507233'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507233'href='vote?id=37507233&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=jcarrano" class="hnuser">jcarrano</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:42:55"><a href="item?id=37507233">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507233"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507687" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507233" n="8" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">By far the best thing with XFCE is that it does not change, it merely improves. Other DEs and applications radically change the UI between releases.<p>I have my XFCE desktop working as I want now and I don't want to change it or having to learn where buttons are located after an update. With Gnome and Windows I feel like a lab rat for their UI experiments.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507233&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507233">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507547'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507547'href='vote?id=37507547&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=hydroid7" class="hnuser">hydroid7</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:32:15"><a href="item?id=37507547">20 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507547"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507233" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507370" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507547" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Xfce is really the best. Minimalistic, good looking.<p>I only miss 3 column tiling on my ultra wide screen.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507547&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507547">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507570'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507570'href='vote?id=37507570&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=bradrn" class="hnuser">bradrn</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:35:50"><a href="item?id=37507570">16 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507570"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507233" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507547" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507370" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507570" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I’ve used Xfce and XMonad together with great success. I’m on Wayland now (using Sway), but I still miss that combination.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507570&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507570">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507370'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507370'href='vote?id=37507370&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=prmoustache" class="hnuser">prmoustache</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:02:04"><a href="item?id=37507370">50 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507370"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507233" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507547" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507687" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507370" n="5" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Not sure about that.<p>XFCE started as a clone of CDE. Now compare original CDE with XFCE and it is not really the same thing.<p>Sure, Gnome change from v2 to v3 was a major change in UI, but mostly for the better and Gnome kept a way to have a more classic behavior.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507370&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507370">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507518'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507518'href='vote?id=37507518&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=ho_schi" class="hnuser">ho_schi</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:28:14"><a href="item?id=37507518">24 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507518"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507233" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507370" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507475" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507518" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Yep.<p>GNOME makes often changes without long term strategy or asking their actual users. The removal of Type-Ahead-Find in Nautilus or background-transparency in GNOME-Terminal where mistakes. On the other hand new applications like Documents or Console required resources but provide no benefit over it counterparts. That said - Nautilus improved a lot in recent years and there are even patches available for Type-Ahead-Find (or Navigation). Same for background-transparency in the GNOME-Terminal. The separated top-bar-menus were also a problem (decoupling menus from application-windows was copied from Apple) but now reverted, they learn.<p>If the design team is aware of the usage and has a plan things fit well! The overview is great for keyboard and mouse users, the dash make simple things simple, they got rid of the useless <i>desktop-metapher</i> (copied from Win95) and also the system-tray (another thing from Win95). The keyboard focused use of GNOME is use core-feature, fast for experienced users and a relieve for novice users. The GNOME-Shell provided a good UI and removed many questionable ideas of the past.<p>Wishlist?<p>Decouple the release cycle of most applications from GNOME, excepting Nautilus and Settings. There is no need to couple Epiphany, Terminal, Maps, Calendar and so. Evolution already skips every second release. And <i>feature-removal</i> should require a good reasoning and not just „I don’t need that myself“. Many options are bewildering, many forks without merges are worse (lost developers and lost users).</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507518&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507518">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507613'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507613'href='vote?id=37507613&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=gryn" class="hnuser">gryn</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:41:15"><a href="item?id=37507613">11 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507613"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507233" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507518" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507475" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507613" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">My biggest gripe with gnome is how dependent each individual app is on installing the whole gnome-shell packages, want to use their email app without using gnome as a DE, well too bad Gmail/office and all other kind of providers won't work.<p>Gnome feels very anti Unix philosophy.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507613&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507613">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507475'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507475'href='vote?id=37507475&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=reidrac" class="hnuser">reidrac</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:22:46"><a href="item?id=37507475">30 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507475"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507233" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507370" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507518" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507687" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507475" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Surely is more about slow evolution than revolution.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507475&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507475">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507674'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507674'href='vote?id=37507674&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=prmoustache" class="hnuser">prmoustache</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:50:11"><a href="item?id=37507674">2 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507674"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507233" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507475" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507687" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507674" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">But Gnome did only a revolution once and since then it is the same.<p>I personnally totally saw it as a different project as gnome 2 didn't become obsolete immediately and Mate&Cinnamon forks took over so quickly for those looking for a gnome classic evolution that no one was really forced into using gnome 3.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507674&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507674">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507687'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507687'href='vote?id=37507687&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=joseluis" class="hnuser">joseluis</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:51:19"><a href="item?id=37507687">1 minute ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507687"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507233" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506733" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507687" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">My favorite combination is Mint + Xfce + openbox as the window manager which leaves the CPU at 0% when not doing anything, and is very responsive and versatile. I had to setup separate dark themes for each one but now it looks good.<p>The only thing I don't like is thunar freezing often when doing long blocking IO operations...</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507687&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507687">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506733'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506733'href='vote?id=37506733&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=ducktective" class="hnuser">ducktective</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:30:36"><a href="item?id=37506733">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506733"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507687" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506733" n="4" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Xfce, the "Just Works" of Linux desktop environments not only the DE itself but also its suite of apps like Thunar.<p>They recently moved to gtk4 (or are planning to?). I wonder what would be the difference between gtk3 and gtk4 apps in terms of latency and performance.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506733&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506733">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507437'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507437'href='vote?id=37507437&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=donkeybeer" class="hnuser">donkeybeer</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:15:32"><a href="item?id=37507437">37 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507437"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506733" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507437" n="3" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">gtk4 is not good.
+They have been killing more features and forcing more ui wierdness like overlay scrollbars, etc<p><a href="https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=790677#c6" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=790677#c6</a><p>I think 4 plans to kill theming too.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507437&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507437">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507510'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507510'href='vote?id=37507510&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=CuteDinosaur" class="hnuser">CuteDinosaur</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:27:18"><a href="item?id=37507510">25 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507510"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506733" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507437" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507510" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I don't understand most of this decisions.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507510&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507510">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507686'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507686'href='vote?id=37507686&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=rglullis" class="hnuser">rglullis</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:51:18"><a href="item?id=37507686">1 minute ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507686"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506733" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507510" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507686" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Think of it as the product of the new generation of techies who had their first contact with computers after Mac OSX was released, and now all they can/want to do is emulate Apple and their HIG.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507686&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507686">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506933'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506933'href='vote?id=37506933&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=ndsipa_pomu" class="hnuser">ndsipa_pomu</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:59:02"><a href="item?id=37506933">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506933"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506733" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506806" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506933" n="16" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I used to use XFCE (specifically XUbuntu), but found that its handling of hi-dpi displays on laptops etc. wasn't very good, so switched to Plasma/KDE which seems to work better. Still have issues with certain flatpak apps not scaling properly though.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506933&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506933">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507556'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507556'href='vote?id=37507556&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=kwanbix" class="hnuser">kwanbix</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:33:36"><a href="item?id=37507556">19 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507556"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507103" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507556" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I tried Plasma many times (just briefly installed a distro like Kubuntu), and while very complete, I find it "lifeless". Is purely a graphical sensation. Is like it has no life, compared to Mint with either Cinnamon or Gnome. I don't know how to better explain it.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507556&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507556">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507666'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507666'href='vote?id=37507666&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=tetris11" class="hnuser">tetris11</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:49:15"><a href="item?id=37507666">3 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507666"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507556" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507103" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507666" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">> lifeless<p>This is a feature</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507666&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507666">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507103'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507103'href='vote?id=37507103&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=jeroenhd" class="hnuser">jeroenhd</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:24:19"><a href="item?id=37507103">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507103"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507556" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507451" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507103" n="12" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">If scaling is off, there's a good chance the application is using GTK. GTK4 doesn't support fractional scaling but I believe GTK5 might.<p>If applications are written in GTK2/3/4, fractional scaling won't work well and lead to blurry windows.<p>Integer scaling (1x, 2x, 4x) should work just fine, but fractional scaling isn't implemented consistently across GUI frameworks. Hopefully Wayland will fix the inconsistencies between implementations, though GTK and some other GUI frameworks will likely remain broken for a while.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507103&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507103">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507177'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507177'href='vote?id=37507177&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=blueflow" class="hnuser">blueflow</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:36:56"><a href="item?id=37507177">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507177"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507103" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507198" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507177" n="6" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">The constant GTK rewrites are a disaster. Why should applications even bother starting with GTK(n) if it will be obsolete and incompatible when GTK(n+1) comes around?</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507177&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507177">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507349'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507349'href='vote?id=37507349&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=dvdkon" class="hnuser">dvdkon</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:59:34"><a href="item?id=37507349">53 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507349"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507177" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507198" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507349" n="5" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">You're exaggerating. GTK2 came out in 2002, GTK3 in 2011 and GTK4 in 2020. That' s almost a decade for each version, and you have to consider that GTK2 was maintained for a long time after 3's release and that current Linux distros still package it. And the GTK3 to 4 transition required some changes, but far from a rewrite.<p>If you need multi-decade support from your GUI layer, I can recommend raw Win32 or VT100 terminal codes. There's hardly any other API with that kind of backwards compatibility.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507349&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507349">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507672'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='4'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="160"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507672'href='vote?id=37507672&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=bandrami" class="hnuser">bandrami</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:50:03"><a href="item?id=37507672">2 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507672"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507349" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507464" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507672" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Meanwhile a Windows application compiled 25 years ago still runs today. A Windows application compiled 30 years ago runs with a very small compatibility shim you can ship with it as a DLL.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507464'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='4'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="160"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507464'href='vote?id=37507464&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=j16sdiz" class="hnuser">j16sdiz</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:20:58"><a href="item?id=37507464">31 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507464"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507349" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507672" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507621" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507464" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">It's the downstream projects.<p>It take 2-3 years to iron out the bugs. Non-gnome downstream take another 3 years to adopt and stabilise.<p>By the time the adoption is finished, another major version emerges.<p>We don't have any good way to maintain compatibility that long.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507464&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507464">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507621'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='4'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="160"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507621'href='vote?id=37507621&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=layer8" class="hnuser">layer8</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:42:20"><a href="item?id=37507621">10 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507621"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507349" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507464" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507505" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507621" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Multi-decade support should be the norm for GUI toolkits. Why should all GUI apps of the world have to be rewritten every decade? That’s just a wasteful use of developer resources, and also a wasteful disruption of end user habituation.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507621&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507621">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507505'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='4'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="160"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507505'href='vote?id=37507505&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=badsectoracula" class="hnuser">badsectoracula</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:26:55"><a href="item?id=37507505">25 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507505"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507349" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507621" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507198" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507505" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">> There's hardly any other API with that kind of backwards compatibility.<p>X11/Xlib, though obviously you have to do the GUI bits yourself (but then you mentioned VT100 terminal codes so i guess that is acceptable).<p>Also AFAIK Motif is backwards compatible going back to the 90s.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507505&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507505">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507198'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507198'href='vote?id=37507198&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=d-k-bo" class="hnuser">d-k-bo</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:39:33"><a href="item?id=37507198">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507198"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507103" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507177" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507179" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507198" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">On Wayland, GTK3/4 windows work well with fractional scaling (on GNOME). They are rendered at 200% and then downscaled by the compositor, which looks mostly fine.<p>Blurryness is often caused by GTK2/old Qt5/Electron applications that don't support Wayland and are rendered using XWayland at 100% and then upscaled by the compositor.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507198&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507198">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507179'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507179'href='vote?id=37507179&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=csdreamer7" class="hnuser">csdreamer7</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:37:03"><a href="item?id=37507179">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507179"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507103" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507198" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507190" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507179" n="3" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">> GTK4 doesn't support fractional scaling but I believe GTK5 might.<p>I do not think this is current info, but otherwise might be the reason as it is an experimental feature.<p>For example, you can enable fractional scaling in GNOME right now.<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjfZ8TSXsps">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjfZ8TSXsps</a><p>This phoronix article shows the variable to enable it in GTK.<p><a href="https://www.phoronix.com/news/GTK-4.11.1" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.phoronix.com/news/GTK-4.11.1</a><p>Edit: added a little clarification + cited the specific bit of text I was responding to.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507179&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507179">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507322'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507322'href='vote?id=37507322&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=bitwize" class="hnuser">bitwize</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:56:52"><a href="item?id=37507322">55 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507322"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507179" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507190" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507322" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Then it really is time to pull the plug, and remove X11 support from the major toolkits and DEs.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507322&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507322">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507694'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='4'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="160"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507694'href='vote?id=37507694&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=bandrami" class="hnuser">bandrami</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:52:01"><a href="item?id=37507694">0 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507694"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507322" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507190" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507694" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">What is this obsession people have with ripping out working code?<p>Debian still ships support for token ring; the idea that X11 is ever "going away" really misunderstands how free software works.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507190'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507190'href='vote?id=37507190&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=ndsipa_pomu" class="hnuser">ndsipa_pomu</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:38:47"><a href="item?id=37507190">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507190"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507103" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507179" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507451" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507190" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Just checked and I've got my current laptop screen set to 175% global scaling for a 3840x2160 screen.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507190&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507190">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507451'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507451'href='vote?id=37507451&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=clircle" class="hnuser">clircle</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:18:14"><a href="item?id=37507451">34 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507451"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507103" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506806" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507451" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I never got a hi-dpi display completely satisfactorily with _any_ linux desktop.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507451&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507451">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506806'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506806'href='vote?id=37506806&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=bradley13" class="hnuser">bradley13</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:40:25"><a href="item?id=37506806">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506806"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506933" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506806" n="6" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I've been using Xubuntu for years - it just works, with no clutter. Absolutely my only complaint are the very thin window borders - this is a setting you cannot individually adjust. However, one quickly gets used to (alt + right-click + drag).</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506806&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506806">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507078'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507078'href='vote?id=37507078&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=anon____" class="hnuser">anon____</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:20:08"><a href="item?id=37507078">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507078"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506806" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506936" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507078" n="3" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Alt+space brings up the window menu. Press R to resize, or M to move the window with either the arrow keys or by moving the mouse pointer. Finalize with Enter, cancel with Escape.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507078&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507078">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507470'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507470'href='vote?id=37507470&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=bmacho" class="hnuser">bmacho</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:22:04"><a href="item?id=37507470">30 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507470"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506806" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507078" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506936" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507470" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Can you resize a window with only the arrow keys? For example hit r+up and raise the upper border upward, then s+left, and shrink the window by moving the right border leftward, or something like that?</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507470&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507470">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507617'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507617'href='vote?id=37507617&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=anon____" class="hnuser">anon____</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:42:05"><a href="item?id=37507617">10 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507617"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506806" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507470" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506936" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507617" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Yes. After pressing Alt+space then R, the first pressing of an arrow key selects the border you want to move, let's say the left. You can then move that with the left/right arrows. If you press up or down in this state, it will, again, select the corresponding border to work on.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507617&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507617">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506936'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506936'href='vote?id=37506936&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=kreddor" class="hnuser">kreddor</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:59:11"><a href="item?id=37506936">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506936"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506806" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507078" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506936" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Seems to be a major problem in many desktop environments. I use the "super + right-click" in Gnome for the same reason (Ubuntu).</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506936&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506936">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506980'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506980'href='vote?id=37506980&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=Vinnl" class="hnuser">Vinnl</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:06:30"><a href="item?id=37506980">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506980"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506806" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37506936" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506980" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">On GNOME you should be able to click in the area near the window borders (e.g. in the drop shadow) to select them and be able to resize the windows.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506980&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506980">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507289'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507289'href='vote?id=37507289&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=throwaway914" class="hnuser">throwaway914</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:51:19"><a href="item?id=37507289">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507289"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506806" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507039" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507289" n="6" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">There are a couple reasons I can only back Gnome at this point, even though I loved/miss XFCE.<p>Wayland multi-seat + idle-inhibition
+HDR + variable refresh
+Fractional scaling (I think XFCE has some/all of this?)<p>We're just playing catchup to MacOS for over a decade, and soon enough Linux will have to compete with 3d desktop environments (Apple Vision Pro interface). I think we're almost to the point where the DE will be just a physics simulator (game engine) to help augment your reality.<p>Anyway, I still use XFCE on resource-limited hardware but Gnome has been the only option for a while because progress isn't being made by other DEs on these critical things (color, refresh, alpha-composition, and some wayland protocols missing in wlroots).<p>I'm just glad Gnome isn't the dependency hell it used to be, and has slimmed down. I really love what they've done with GJS but I believe there's a competing KDE bindings project.<p></naive></span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507289&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507289">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507395'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507395'href='vote?id=37507395&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=nine_k" class="hnuser">nine_k</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:06:40"><a href="item?id=37507395">46 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507395"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507367" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507395" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">The point of Xfce for me is that it is configurable, the way Gnome is explicitly not.<p>Of all that, I only care about fractional scaling. Uf I wanted Apple-like experience, I'd be using a Mac. Imitating Mac experience on different hardware can be a worthy goal, but it's definitely not the only worthy goal.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507395&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507395">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507367'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507367'href='vote?id=37507367&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=rkangel" class="hnuser">rkangel</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:01:44"><a href="item?id=37507367">51 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507367"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507395" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507439" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507367" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">> Wayland multi-seat + idle-inhibition HDR + variable refresh Fractional scaling<p>The move to Wayland is interesting to observe. On first glance it seems that moving to Wayland provides a load of burden on DEs that they never had before - and not just because of the work required to transition. And that obviously this is all Wayland's fault.<p>What I think is <i>actually</i> going on though is that we expect quite a rich feature set from a modern DE - exactly as you have listed.<p>We could never do most of this stuff on X, but Wayland enables it and then follows a load of work to get it all going.<p>In an ideal world there would be a nice clean abstraction boundary between compositor and DE so that this underlying work was shared between DEs. Maybe that is possible, but people who know what they're talking about seem to agree that the Wayland approach is the right way to go and I don't know enough to disagree. Plus, it makes some intuitive sense that your DE should know how windows share rendering space.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507367&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507367">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507439'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507439'href='vote?id=37507439&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=blablablerg" class="hnuser">blablablerg</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:15:58"><a href="item?id=37507439">36 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507439"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507367" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507335" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507439" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Not so sure that VR will take off that much, or that soon. The Apple Vision Pro is still pretty heavy, working for hours with that thing, well I hope you have strong neck muscles.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507439&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507439">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507335'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507335'href='vote?id=37507335&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=prmoustache" class="hnuser">prmoustache</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:58:19"><a href="item?id=37507335">54 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507335"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507439" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507404" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507335" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">xfce isn't even useful on resource limited hardware, you are better of using a much lighter weight wm like icewm , openbox or fluxbox + a lightweight launcher and a lighter set of file managers and viewers [1].<p>[1] even window maker could do it, I saw it was recently updated.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507335&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507335">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507404'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507404'href='vote?id=37507404&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=khimaros" class="hnuser">khimaros</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:08:01"><a href="item?id=37507404">44 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507404"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507335" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507039" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507404" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">on the topic of XR desktop environments, Linux is possibly well positioned with projects such as monado, xrdesktop, and SimulaVR: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXQnWJpMLn4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXQnWJpMLn4</a></span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507404&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507404">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507039'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507039'href='vote?id=37507039&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=lizknope" class="hnuser">lizknope</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:14:50"><a href="item?id=37507039">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507039"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507289" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506986" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507039" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I've been using XFCE for the last 15 years. Before that it was vtwm, fvwm, afterstep, but I could never get into GNOME or KDE. XFCE just does everything I need and I don't see any reason to switch.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507039&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507039">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506986'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506986'href='vote?id=37506986&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=dathinab" class="hnuser">dathinab</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:07:24"><a href="item?id=37506986">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506986"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507039" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506700" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506986" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">> As long as Nvidia does not support Wayland<p>AFIK this problem was solved ~2 years ago when Nvidia added support for GBM in version 495.44 (<a href="https://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/181274/en-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/181274/en...</a>)</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506986&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506986">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507615'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507615'href='vote?id=37507615&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=jadbox" class="hnuser">jadbox</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:41:59"><a href="item?id=37507615">10 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507615"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506986" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506700" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507615" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I'm running KDE Wayland on Nvidia. It's mostly just fine. There's minor quirks with some apps, but the DE does feel smoother to me.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507615&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507615">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506700'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506700'href='vote?id=37506700&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=pjmlp" class="hnuser">pjmlp</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:24:46"><a href="item?id=37506700">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506700"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506986" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507424" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506700" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">XFCE has become my go to desktop environment after Ubuntu dropped Unity, so it is nice to see an updated roadmap.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506700&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506700">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507424'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507424'href='vote?id=37507424&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=not_your_vase" class="hnuser">not_your_vase</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:12:26"><a href="item?id=37507424">40 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507424"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506700" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507667" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507424" n="5" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Wayland protocol will celebrate its 15th birthday later this month. TFA is great news, but something isn't right here.<p>I really start to think that the X11->Wayland migration is a bigger clusterfuck than Python2->3 was - even if we consider that a compositor migration is much bigger task than Python migration.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507424&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507424">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507456'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507456'href='vote?id=37507456&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=umanwizard" class="hnuser">umanwizard</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:18:57"><a href="item?id=37507456">33 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507456"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507424" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507667" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507456" n="4" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Python 3 at least worked immediately. Wayland still has tons of issues.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507456&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507456">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507546'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507546'href='vote?id=37507546&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=dontlaugh" class="hnuser">dontlaugh</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:32:13"><a href="item?id=37507546">20 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507546"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507424" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507456" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507473" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507546" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Lots of libraries were missing or broken for Python 3 for many years. If anything, it was far less usable than Wayland.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507546&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507546">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507473'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507473'href='vote?id=37507473&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=j16sdiz" class="hnuser">j16sdiz</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:22:36"><a href="item?id=37507473">30 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507473"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507424" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507456" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507546" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507667" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507473" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">For GNOME user, it is starting to become usable recently<p>Not so luck for non-GNOME user</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507473&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507473">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507647'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507647'href='vote?id=37507647&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=gryn" class="hnuser">gryn</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:46:29"><a href="item?id=37507647">6 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507647"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507424" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507473" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507667" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507647" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Wayland on sway has been a smooth sailing for me, the only thing that made be go back was barriers KVM not working and not finding an open source alternative that works for both Linux and windows.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507647&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507647">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507667'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507667'href='vote?id=37507667&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=igtztorrero" class="hnuser">igtztorrero</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:49:16"><a href="item?id=37507667">3 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507667"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507424" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507251" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507667" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">XCFE is they best, please keep it simple.<p>I have used it for 7 years and I love it !<p>May God keep away animations from XCFE allways !</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507667&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507667">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507251'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507251'href='vote?id=37507251&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=toastal" class="hnuser">toastal</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:46:04"><a href="item?id=37507251">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507251"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507667" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507153" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507251" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">The march to Wayland hopefully doesn’t complete until color management & DisplayLink are merged. I had to go back to X11 because of missing features.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507251&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507251">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507153'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507153'href='vote?id=37507153&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=Nursie" class="hnuser">Nursie</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:32:48"><a href="item?id=37507153">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507153"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507251" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506795" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507153" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I really love XFCE. I used it on and off on low-resource machines since the late 00s, and then moved to it for my main desktop when the Gnome3 thing happened. I've never looked back (though I'll admit I'm also a macbook user!).<p>What do I like? It's never forced me to change the way I work. That's up to me.<p>So if Wayland is the future, then I look forward to using XFCE on Wayland somewhere down the line too.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507153&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507153">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506795'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506795'href='vote?id=37506795&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=esarbe" class="hnuser">esarbe</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:38:46"><a href="item?id=37506795">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506795"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507153" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506794" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506795" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Not an XFCE user (I'm comfortably satisfied with the simplicity that is Gnome) but I'm very happy to see XFCE's concrete plans to move towards Wayland!</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506795&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506795">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506794'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506794'href='vote?id=37506794&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=luciusdomitius" class="hnuser">luciusdomitius</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:38:32"><a href="item?id=37506794">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506794"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506795" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507024" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506794" n="6" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">XFCE is frankly the last full featured Desktop Environment, truly focusing on responsiveness and zero-lag SGI-style: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEY87HAHzk&pp=ygUbc2lsaWNvbiBncmFwaGljcyBjb21tZXJjaWFs">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEY87HAHzk&pp=ygUbc2lsaWNvb...</a>
+MacOS X, Windows and the mainstream Linux DEs have nice animations, but it is fun watching them the first day. After that it is just annoying.<p>Really hope that Wayland integration works well for them.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506794&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506794">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507185'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507185'href='vote?id=37507185&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=Qwertious" class="hnuser">Qwertious</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:37:55"><a href="item?id=37507185">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507185"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506794" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507012" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507185" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">>MacOS X, Windows and the mainstream Linux DEs have nice animations, but it is fun watching them the first day. After that it is just annoying.<p>Wobbly Windows are <i>amazing</i> and never get old. It's been years, and I still get joy from them.<p>I'm sure there are other nice effects too, but I don't feel that strongly about them - Wobbly Windows are the hill I'd die on.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507185&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507185">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507012'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507012'href='vote?id=37507012&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=pjerem" class="hnuser">pjerem</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:10:58"><a href="item?id=37507012">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507012"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506794" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507185" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507218" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507012" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Cinnamon is also in this ballpark. Each have their strengths and weaknesses but both are awesome.<p>Both are pretty dumb when it comes to Hi-DPI support although Cinnamon does an acceptable job at staying coherent when configured with bigger fonts so it’s a workaround. XFCE manages bigger fonts very badly so I have big hopes that real Hi-DPI support will be better with wayland.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507012&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507012">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507523'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507523'href='vote?id=37507523&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=luciusdomitius" class="hnuser">luciusdomitius</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:29:03"><a href="item?id=37507523">23 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507523"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506794" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507012" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507218" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507523" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">You tell me. My biggest pain with XFCE is multi-monitor support. Like having the menu bar also on the second display and not have two of them when you switch back to single-monitor.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507523&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507523">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507218'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507218'href='vote?id=37507218&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=circuit10" class="hnuser">circuit10</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:41:41"><a href="item?id=37507218">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507218"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506794" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507012" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507393" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507218" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">As long as the animations are done right (subtle and short) they make the experience feel smoother without slowing you down or annoying you. At least that’s my experience, it’s probably not the same for everyone</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507218&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507218">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507393'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507393'href='vote?id=37507393&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=prmoustache" class="hnuser">prmoustache</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:06:29"><a href="item?id=37507393">46 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507393"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506794" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507218" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37507024" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507393" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c73">It is not like people have superherofast reaction times. The lag and responsiveness is mostly a matter a perception.<p>And in gnome's case you can just disable animations in Settings-->Accessibility-->Seeing-->Reduce animation</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507393&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507393">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507024'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507024'href='vote?id=37507024&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=nava_nmr" class="hnuser">nava_nmr</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:12:20"><a href="item?id=37507024">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507024"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506794" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507024" n="3" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">When I use AWS workspace in X11, The clipboard contents can be shared across host and guest VMs. In wayland, the clipboard is not syncing with AWS VM.<p>Is it the way like this? is there any workaround?
+Could someone please enlighten me?</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507024&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507024">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507520'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507520'href='vote?id=37507520&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=Bright_Machine" class="hnuser">Bright_Machine</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:28:32"><a href="item?id=37507520">24 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507520"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507024" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507193" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507520" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Only GNOME supports clipboard sharing with guests, because GNOME unifies X11 and Wayland clipboards in the compositor. None of the other Wayland DEs are supporting it since it requires special handling in their respective compositors.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507520&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507520">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507193'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507193'href='vote?id=37507193&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=csdreamer7" class="hnuser">csdreamer7</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:39:08"><a href="item?id=37507193">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507193"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507024" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507520" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507193" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">How do you connect to AWS Workspace? Never used it before.<p>Have you tried opening a bug with them to see if just got broke in your display manager?</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507193&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507193">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506876'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='0'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="0"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506876'href='vote?id=37506876&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=rwmj" class="hnuser">rwmj</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:48:56"><a href="item?id=37506876">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506876"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37507024" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506876" n="8" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Can Wayland run programs remotely yet?</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506876&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506876">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506907'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506907'href='vote?id=37506907&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=Thev00d00" class="hnuser">Thev00d00</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:55:21"><a href="item?id=37506907">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506907"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506946" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506907" n="2" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Assuming you mean run an app over SSH, and are not just being facetious then sure, you can use waypipe[0] for that.<p>0. <a href="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe/</a></span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506907&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506907">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507130'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507130'href='vote?id=37507130&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=jeroenhd" class="hnuser">jeroenhd</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:28:25"><a href="item?id=37507130">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507130"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37506907" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506946" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507130" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I think it's a Gnome bug or something, but whenever I use Waypipe I keep getting "this application is not responding" popups.<p>The internet suggests increasing the responsiveness checker or disabling it entirely, but that makes Firefox unresponsive to mouse input.<p>Waypipe does have some great hardware acceleration advantages over remote X11 sessions, but for me it's currently not usable.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507130&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507130">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506946'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506946'href='vote?id=37506946&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=jraph" class="hnuser">jraph</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:00:37"><a href="item?id=37506946">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506946"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506907" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> | <a href="#37506884" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506946" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Someone mentioned waypipe which I don't know but which seems to be the way to go if one can use it (it does seem to require installing waypipe on the server).<p>In any case ssh -X still works fine out of the box, using which transparently uses XWayland behind the scene.<p>It has limitations compared to native Wayland like good support for multi screen with different DPIs, but the same limitations will be found in a native X11 session anyway.<p>So Wayland is at least not a downgrade on this topic. It's been handled well.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506946&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506946">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37506884'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='1'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="40"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37506884'href='vote?id=37506884&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=pluijzer" class="hnuser">pluijzer</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T09:51:06"><a href="item?id=37506884">2 hours ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37506884"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37506946" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37506884" n="4" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">I thought this was specifically not part of Wayland, am I wrong?</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37506884&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337506884">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507267'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='2'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="80"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507267'href='vote?id=37507267&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=Qwertious" class="hnuser">Qwertious</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T10:47:48"><a href="item?id=37507267">1 hour ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507267"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37506884" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507267" n="3" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00"><i>Sort of.</i> The foundational issue here is the longstanding premise "Wayland can replace X!". The problem is that <i>Wayland</i> can't replace X, only Wayland plus a bunch of other components - or as I like to call it, Wayland++.<p>So Wayland++ can provide network transparency, but whenever a W++ feature has issues and those issues are criticized, Wayland advocates will just motte-and-bailey the issue by saying "but that's not part of Wayland!", which is technically true but irrelevant. "Wayland" can mean Wayland++ or just Wayland-core, depending on what's convenient.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507267&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507267">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507515'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507515'href='vote?id=37507515&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=dale_glass" class="hnuser">dale_glass</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:27:50"><a href="item?id=37507515">24 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507515"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507267" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507507" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">next</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507515" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">Wayland proper is a protocol specification. By it itself, it's completely inert and it's all up to an implementation.<p>The protocol uses shared memory buffers and file descriptors, so it can't be just transported through TCP as-is. You need something like waypipe, which parses part of the protocol, extracts things like file descriptors that won't make sense on the other end, and then reconstructs things on the destination.<p>waypipe turns out not to be that complicated, it's just 15K lines of code.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507515&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507515">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ <tr class='athing comtr' id='37507507'><td><table border='0'> <tr> <td class='ind' indent='3'><img src="s.gif" height="1" width="120"></td><td valign="top" class="votelinks">
+ <center><a id='up_37507507'href='vote?id=37507507&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654'><div class='votearrow' title='upvote'></div></a></center> </td><td class="default"><div style="margin-top:2px; margin-bottom:-10px;"><span class="comhead">
+ <a href="user?id=j16sdiz" class="hnuser">j16sdiz</a> <span class="age" title="2023-09-14T11:27:03"><a href="item?id=37507507">25 minutes ago</a></span> <span id="unv_37507507"></span> <span class='navs'>
+ | <a href="#37506876" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">root</a> | <a href="#37507267" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">parent</a> | <a href="#37507515" class="clicky" aria-hidden="true">prev</a> <a class="togg clicky" id="37507507" n="1" href="javascript:void(0)">[–]</a><span class="onstory"></span> </span>
+ </span></div><br><div class="comment">
+ <span class="commtext c00">outsourcing the responsibility that is.</span>
+ <div class='reply'> <p><font size="1">
+ <u><a href="reply?id=37507507&goto=item%3Fid%3D37506654%2337507507">reply</a></u>
+ </font>
+ </div></div></td></tr>
+ </table></td></tr>
+ </table>
+ <br><br>
+</td></tr>
+<tr><td><img src="s.gif" height="10" width="0"><table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1"><tr><td bgcolor="#ff6600"></td></tr></table><br>
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(DIR) diff --git a/realworld/posix_opengroup_frames.html b/realworld/posix_opengroup_frames.html
@@ -0,0 +1,34 @@
+<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN">
+<!--NewPage-->
+<html>
+<head>
+<meta name="generator" content="HTML Tidy for Mac OS X (vers 31 October 2006 - Apple Inc. build 15.10), see www.w3.org">
+<title>The Open Group Base Specifications Issue 7, 2018 edition</title>
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+<body>
+<h2>Frame Alert</h2>
+
+<p>This document is designed to be viewed using the frames feature. If you see this message, you are using a non-frame-capable web
+client.<br>
+Link to<a href="mindex.html">Non-frame version.</a></p>
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+
(DIR) diff --git a/realworld/posix_opengroup_mkdir.html b/realworld/posix_opengroup_mkdir.html
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+<!-- Copyright 2001-2013 IEEE and The Open Group, All Rights Reserved -->
+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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+<meta name="generator" content="HTML Tidy, see www.w3.org">
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+<link type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" href="style.css"><!-- Generated by The Open Group's rhtm tool v1.2.4 -->
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+<title>mkdir</title>
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+<td class="nav" width="70%" align="center" valign="bottom"><a href="contents.html">Home</a></td>
+<td class="nav" width="15%" align="right" valign="bottom"><a href="../utilities/mkfifo.html" accesskey="N">Next >>></a></td>
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+<basefont size="3">
+
+<center><font size="2">The Open Group Base Specifications Issue 7, 2018 edition<br>
+IEEE Std 1003.1-2017 (Revision of IEEE Std 1003.1-2008)<br>
+Copyright © 2001-2018 IEEE and The Open Group</font></center>
+
+<hr size="2" noshade>
+<a name="top"></a> <a name="mkdir"></a> <a name="tag_20_79"></a><!-- mkdir -->
+
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_01"></a>NAME</h4>
+
+<blockquote>mkdir - make directories</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_02"></a>SYNOPSIS</h4>
+
+<blockquote class="synopsis">
+<p><code><tt>mkdir</tt> <b>[</b><tt>-p</tt><b>] [</b><tt>-m</tt> <i>mode</i><b>]</b> <i>dir</i><tt>...</tt></code></p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_03"></a>DESCRIPTION</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The <i>mkdir</i> utility shall create the directories specified by the operands, in the order specified.</p>
+
+<p>For each <i>dir</i> operand, the <i>mkdir</i> utility shall perform actions equivalent to the <a href=
+"../functions/mkdir.html"><i>mkdir</i>()</a> function defined in the System Interfaces volume of POSIX.1-2017, called with the
+following arguments:</p>
+
+<ol>
+<li>
+<p>The <i>dir</i> operand is used as the <i>path</i> argument.</p>
+</li>
+
+<li>
+<p>The value of the bitwise-inclusive OR of S_IRWXU, S_IRWXG, and S_IRWXO is used as the <i>mode</i> argument. (If the <b>-m</b>
+option is specified, the value of the <a href="../functions/mkdir.html"><i>mkdir</i>()</a> <i>mode</i> argument is unspecified, but
+the directory shall at no time have permissions less restrictive than the <b>-m</b> <i>mode</i> option-argument.)</p>
+</li>
+</ol>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_04"></a>OPTIONS</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The <i>mkdir</i> utility shall conform to XBD <a href="../basedefs/V1_chap12.html#tag_12_02"><i>Utility Syntax
+Guidelines</i></a>.</p>
+
+<p>The following options shall be supported:</p>
+
+<dl compact>
+<dt><b>-m </b> <i>mode</i></dt>
+
+<dd>Set the file permission bits of the newly-created directory to the specified <i>mode</i> value. The <i>mode</i> option-argument
+shall be the same as the <i>mode</i> operand defined for the <a href="../utilities/chmod.html"><i>chmod</i></a> utility. In the
+<i>symbolic_mode</i> strings, the <i>op</i> characters <tt>'+'</tt> and <tt>'-'</tt> shall be interpreted relative to an assumed
+initial mode of <i>a</i>= <i>rwx</i>; <tt>'+'</tt> shall add permissions to the default mode, <tt>'-'</tt> shall delete permissions
+from the default mode.</dd>
+
+<dt><b>-p</b></dt>
+
+<dd>Create any missing intermediate pathname components.
+
+<p>For each <i>dir</i> operand that does not name an existing directory, before performing the actions described in the DESCRIPTION
+above, the <i>mkdir</i> utility shall create any pathname components of the path prefix of <i>dir</i> that do not name an existing
+directory by performing actions equivalent to first calling the <a href="../functions/mkdir.html"><i>mkdir</i>()</a> function with
+the following arguments:</p>
+
+<ol>
+<li>
+<p>A pathname naming the missing pathname component, ending with a trailing <slash> character, as the <i>path</i>
+argument</p>
+</li>
+
+<li>
+<p>The value zero as the <i>mode</i> argument</p>
+</li>
+</ol>
+
+<p>and then calling the <a href="../functions/chmod.html"><i>chmod</i>()</a> function with the following arguments:</p>
+
+<ol>
+<li>
+<p>The same <i>path</i> argument as in the <a href="../functions/mkdir.html"><i>mkdir</i>()</a> call</p>
+</li>
+
+<li>
+<p>The value <tt>(S_IWUSR|S_IXUSR|~<i>filemask</i>)&0777</tt> as the <i>mode</i> argument, where <i>filemask</i> is the
+file mode creation mask of the process (see XSH <a href="../functions/umask.html#tag_16_631"><i>umask</i></a>)</p>
+</li>
+</ol>
+
+<p>Each <i>dir</i> operand that names an existing directory shall be ignored without error.</p>
+</dd>
+</dl>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_05"></a>OPERANDS</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The following operand shall be supported:</p>
+
+<dl compact>
+<dt><i>dir</i></dt>
+
+<dd>A pathname of a directory to be created.</dd>
+</dl>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_06"></a>STDIN</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>Not used.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_07"></a>INPUT FILES</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>None.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_08"></a>ENVIRONMENT VARIABLES</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The following environment variables shall affect the execution of <i>mkdir</i>:</p>
+
+<dl compact>
+<dt><i>LANG</i></dt>
+
+<dd>Provide a default value for the internationalization variables that are unset or null. (See XBD <a href=
+"../basedefs/V1_chap08.html#tag_08_02"><i>Internationalization Variables</i></a> for the precedence of internationalization
+variables used to determine the values of locale categories.)</dd>
+
+<dt><i>LC_ALL</i></dt>
+
+<dd>If set to a non-empty string value, override the values of all the other internationalization variables.</dd>
+
+<dt><i>LC_CTYPE</i></dt>
+
+<dd>Determine the locale for the interpretation of sequences of bytes of text data as characters (for example, single-byte as
+opposed to multi-byte characters in arguments).</dd>
+
+<dt><i>LC_MESSAGES</i></dt>
+
+<dd>
+Determine the locale that should be used to affect the format and contents of diagnostic messages written to standard error.</dd>
+
+<dt><i>NLSPATH</i></dt>
+
+<dd><sup>[<a href="javascript:open_code('XSI')">XSI</a>]</sup> <img src="../images/opt-start.gif" alt="[Option Start]" border="0">
+Determine the location of message catalogs for the processing of <i>LC_MESSAGES.</i> <img src="../images/opt-end.gif" alt=
+"[Option End]" border="0"></dd>
+</dl>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_09"></a>ASYNCHRONOUS EVENTS</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>Default.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_10"></a>STDOUT</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>Not used.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_11"></a>STDERR</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The standard error shall be used only for diagnostic messages.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_12"></a>OUTPUT FILES</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>None.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_13"></a>EXTENDED DESCRIPTION</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>None.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_14"></a>EXIT STATUS</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The following exit values shall be returned:</p>
+
+<dl compact>
+<dt> 0</dt>
+
+<dd>All the specified directories were created successfully, or the <b>-p</b> option was specified and all the specified
+directories either already existed or were created successfully.</dd>
+
+<dt>>0</dt>
+
+<dd>An error occurred.</dd>
+</dl>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_15"></a>CONSEQUENCES OF ERRORS</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>Default.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<hr>
+<div class="box"><em>The following sections are informative.</em></div>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_16"></a>APPLICATION USAGE</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The default file mode for directories is <i>a</i>= <i>rwx</i> (777 on most systems) with selected permissions removed in
+accordance with the file mode creation mask. For intermediate pathname components created by <i>mkdir</i>, the mode is the default
+modified by <i>u</i>+ <i>wx</i> so that the subdirectories can always be created regardless of the file mode creation mask; if
+different ultimate permissions are desired for the intermediate directories, they can be changed afterwards with <a href=
+"../utilities/chmod.html"><i>chmod</i></a>.</p>
+
+<p>Note that some of the requested directories may have been created even if an error occurs.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_17"></a>EXAMPLES</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>None.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_18"></a>RATIONALE</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The System V <b>-m</b> option was included to control the file mode.</p>
+
+<p>The System V <b>-p</b> option was included to create any needed intermediate directories and to complement the functionality
+provided by <a href="../utilities/rmdir.html"><i>rmdir</i></a> for removing directories in the path prefix as they become empty.
+Because no error is produced if any path component already exists, the <b>-p</b> option is also useful to ensure that a particular
+directory exists.</p>
+
+<p>The functionality of <i>mkdir</i> is described substantially through a reference to the <a href=
+"../functions/mkdir.html"><i>mkdir</i>()</a> function in the System Interfaces volume of POSIX.1-2017. For example, by default, the
+mode of the directory is affected by the file mode creation mask in accordance with the specified behavior of the <a href=
+"../functions/mkdir.html"><i>mkdir</i>()</a> function. In this way, there is less duplication of effort required for describing
+details of the directory creation.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_19"></a>FUTURE DIRECTIONS</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>None.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_20"></a>SEE ALSO</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p><a href="../utilities/chmod.html#tag_20_17"><i>chmod</i></a>, <a href="../utilities/rm.html#"><i>rm</i></a>, <a href=
+"../utilities/rmdir.html#tag_20_113"><i>rmdir</i></a>, <a href="../utilities/umask.html#tag_20_138"><i>umask</i></a></p>
+
+<p>XBD <a href="../basedefs/V1_chap08.html#tag_08"><i>Environment Variables</i></a>, <a href=
+"../basedefs/V1_chap12.html#tag_12_02"><i>Utility Syntax Guidelines</i></a></p>
+
+<p>XSH <a href="../functions/mkdir.html#tag_16_325"><i>mkdir</i></a>, <a href=
+"../functions/umask.html#tag_16_631"><i>umask</i></a></p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_21"></a>CHANGE HISTORY</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>First released in Issue 2.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_22"></a>Issue 5</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>The FUTURE DIRECTIONS section is added.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<h4 class="mansect"><a name="tag_20_79_23"></a>Issue 7</h4>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>SD5-XCU-ERN-56 is applied, aligning the <b>-m</b> option with the IEEE P1003.2b draft standard to clarify an ambiguity.</p>
+
+<p>SD5-XCU-ERN-97 is applied, updating the SYNOPSIS.</p>
+
+<p>POSIX.1-2008, Technical Corrigendum 1, XCU/TC1-2008/0122 [161] is applied.</p>
+
+<p>POSIX.1-2008, Technical Corrigendum 2, XCU/TC2-2008/0145 [843] is applied.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<div class="box"><em>End of informative text.</em></div>
+
+<hr>
+<p> </p>
+
+<a href="#top"><span class="topOfPage">return to top of page</span></a><br>
+<hr size="2" noshade>
+<center><font size="2">UNIX ® is a registered Trademark of The Open Group.<br>
+POSIX ™ is a Trademark of The IEEE.<br>
+Copyright © 2001-2018 IEEE and The Open Group, All Rights Reserved<br>
+[ <a href="../mindex.html">Main Index</a> | <a href="../basedefs/contents.html">XBD</a> | <a href=
+"../functions/contents.html">XSH</a> | <a href="../utilities/contents.html">XCU</a> | <a href="../xrat/contents.html">XRAT</a>
+]</font></center>
+
+<hr size="2" noshade>
+<div class="NAVHEADER">
+<table summary="Header navigation table" class="nav" width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
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+</html>
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+<head>
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+<meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1">
+<link rel="stylesheet" href="themes/default.css" title="default/standard theme">
+
+
+<title>3D printing on OpenBSD? Yes, that’s a thing!</title>
+</head>
+<body>
+<header id="page_hdr">
+
+
+
+
+
+<div id="logo">
+<a href="/cgi?action=front"><img src="images/MangaRamblo_25_x.png" alt="Front page"></a>
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+<form action="https://undeadly.org/cgi" method="post" autocomplete="off" autocapitalize="none">
+<input type="hidden" name="action" value="search">
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+
+<h1><abbr>3D</abbr> printing on OpenBSD? Yes, that’s a thing!</h1>
+</header>
+
+
+<main>
+<div id="primary">
+<div class="story">
+<div class="article_header">
+<p class="attrib">Contributed by
+<a href="https://www.darwinsys.com/">Ian Darwin</a>
+on <time datetime="2023-09-13T04:43:06Z">2023-09-13</time>
+from the 'What else can you do with it?' dept.</p>
+</div>
+<p>Can you really do 3D printing from OpenBSD? Cue suspenseful music
+whilst I formulate my answer, which is: Yes.</p>
+<p>If you aren’t familiar with the 3D printing process, it’s divided
+into several steps, vaguely analogous to writing, compiling and running
+a program in a compiled language.</p>
+
+<ul>
+<li><em>Design (CAD)</em> The design tool gets you from an idea to an
+exact specification - like writing and editing a source code file. The
+most common format for these is
+<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STL_(file_format)">STL</a>,
+standing for stereolithography,
+what 3D printing was originally called.</li>
+<li><em>Slicing - convert to layers</em> The “slicing” converts the file
+from STL to‘<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-code">g-code</a>’,
+analogous to compiling a program. These codes
+represent each layer with a set of movements for the 3d print head to
+follow. The g-code format originated decades ago for use in numerical
+controlled machining, and the pioneers of 3D printing wisely adopted and
+adapted this format for the needs of 3D printers.</li>
+<li><em>Download to 3D printer</em> The downloading is analogous to
+loading a compiled program into a program that can run it, like qemu or
+the Java runtime. The g-code is interpreted by the 3D printer to make the
+finished article.</li>
+</ul>
+
+<figure>
+ <img src='/features/2023/09/3dp_screenshot.png' style="width:800px" alt="Busy screenshot of all three steps">
+ <figcaption>Fig. 1 - A CAD tool, a slicer, and a downloader.</figcaption>
+</figure>
+
+<h2>Design</h2>
+<p>OpenSCAD has been in ports for quite some time. At h2k23 I worked on
+a port of another 3D CAD tool, solvespace, which I imported shortly
+after. These are both “parametric” tools, e.g., specify that these two
+parts must meet at exactly 45 degrees, that this part shall be so many
+units wide, etc. OpenSCAD also has a very nice menu system allowing you
+to edit the parameters of the job. I’m using this to make labels for a
+club I belong to, working from
+<a href='https://www.printables.com/model/224439'>
+Xavier Faraudo’s versatile name tag kit</a>.
+Having configured the project as I want it, I can just open
+the file, enter the member’s first and last names, and hit
+<code>Render</code>. Moments later it spits out an STL file, ready for
+slicing.</p>
+<p>Some people use Blender (which has been in ports for ages) to do 3D
+modelling. There are also web-based design tools such as Tinkercad,
+which is easy to use and free to use, but may be a “portal drug” to the
+proprietary CAD software sold by Tinkercad’s sponsor, Autodesk.</p>
+
+<h2>Slicing</h2>
+<p>While at h2k23, I was in touch by email by Johannes Tishman to work
+on a port of
+<a href='https://prusaslicer.com'>PrusaSlicer</a> 2.6.1. There are several dependencies that make
+it harder to port to 2.6.1 compared with 2.5.2. I did some work on the
+replacement for <code>oce</code> needed for 2.6.1, but that wound down
+inconclusively.</p>
+<p>Then in Sept 2023, Renato Aguiar circulated his completed port of
+PrusaSlicer 2.5.1. I needed to try this out at once! I took the 45
+minute print job formatted with openscad (see above under
+<em>Design</em>), sliced it with Prusaslicer, and it printed fine. All
+on OpenBSD.
+<p>
+With feedback from Johannes and an OK from jcs@, I committed
+this port into the tree in mid-September, 2023. This was the last major
+step in completing the ability to do 3D printing, since the downloading
+step (below) doesn’t need any new software to be ported.</p>
+<p>Note that, despite being from Prusa, this software can slice and dice
+STL code for almost any modern printer, either FDM (filament) or SLA
+(resin). It comes with profiles for a large range of printers, but even
+if your printer isn’t already known, you can probably configure it to
+work. In fact, some Prusa competitors like Bambu Labs make their own
+slicers… based on PrusSlicer.
+PrusaSlicer in turn was based on an earlier slicer called Slic3r.
+Open source works that way.
+</p>
+
+<h2>Downloading</h2>
+<p>The download step could be completed by sneakernet (putting the file
+on a USB stick and walking it over to the printer), but that’s pretty
+low bandwidth. There are at least two better ways.</p>
+<p>There’s a free open source project called
+<a href="https://octoprint.org/">OctoPrint</a> that provides great downloading and
+monitoring of most 3D printers. This software can be run on a Raspberry
+PI (where it’s called OctoPI), connecting to most brands of printers via
+USB. There are also
+<a href="https://octoprint.org/download">downloads for other platforms</a>
+such as Android. The standard version is controlled by a web
+browser like Firefox on your desktop, and is used for sending files to
+your printer, starting and monitoring them, etc.</p>
+<p>With a Prusa MK4 printer, you don’t even need the Raspberry PI. Prusa
+printer’s firmware includes a built-in web server and a web app called
+PrusaLink. This is invoked from your desktop just by giving the
+printer’s Ethernet or WiFi IP4 address as the browser URL, e.g.,
+<code>http://10.1.1.42/</code>. You log in with a username of
+<code>maker</code> and a password randomly chosen by the printer itself
+(available on the printer’s LCD screen). There’s no UI for changing this
+password, so one suspects it’s a hash of the printer’s serial number.
+I’ve used PrusaLink a lot over wired Ethernet and it has been
+reliable, though I've heard complaints from people using it over WiFi.</p>
+
+<h2>Happy Ending</h2>
+<p>I’m glad to say that we can now perform the whole 3D print workflow
+on OpenBSD. Use one of the design tools <code>openscad</code> or
+<code>solvespace</code> to generate the STL file. Use PrusaSlicer to
+generate the g-code. Then use prusalink or octoprint via FireFox or
+Chromium to feed the g-code from your desktop to the printer, and to
+start and monitor the printing. Everything you need is now in the
+OpenBSD ports tree, and will be included in packages soon, probably by
+the time you read this.</p>
+<p>Thanks to Johannes and Renato for work on PrusaSlicer, and to
+everyone else who helps to make OpenBSD usable as one’s all-in-one
+operating system.</p>
+
+<h2>Future Work</h2>
+<p>The next steps will probably be an upgrade of PrusaSlicer from 2.5.2
+to 2.6.1 - this brings major improvements - and the addition of
+additional cad tools, perhaps FreeCAD.</p>
+
+</div>
+<div class="x_cmds_status">
+<p><span class="x_cmds"><a href="https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=reply;sid=20230914075444">Reply</a>
+</span>
+</p>
+</div>
+<hr>
+
+</div>
+<div id="extras">
+
+<div class="extra">
+<h2>Latest Articles</h2>
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+(0)</li>
+</ul></li>
+<li><time datetime="2023-09-12">Tue, Sep 12</time><ul><li><b><time datetime="2023-09-12T09:47:27Z">09:47</time></b>
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+<li><time datetime="2023-09-09">Sat, Sep 09</time><ul><li><b><time datetime="2023-09-09T10:07:06Z">10:07</time></b>
+<a href="/cgi?action=article;sid=20230909100706">p2k23 Hackathon Report: Marc Espie (espie@) on a flurry of packages activity</a>
+(1)</li>
+</ul></li>
+<li><time datetime="2023-08-30">Wed, Aug 30</time><ul><li><b><time datetime="2023-08-30T05:24:02Z">05:24</time></b>
+<a href="/cgi?action=article;sid=20230830052402">Game of Trees 0.92 released</a>
+(3)</li>
+</ul></li>
+<li><time datetime="2023-08-29">Tue, Aug 29</time><ul><li><b><time datetime="2023-08-29T05:12:57Z">05:12</time></b>
+<a href="/cgi?action=article;sid=20230829051257">Keystroke timing obfuscation added to <code>ssh(1)</code></a>
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+</ul></li>
+<li><time datetime="2023-08-10">Thu, Aug 10</time><ul><li><b><time datetime="2023-08-10T10:45:39Z">10:45</time></b>
+<a href="/cgi?action=article;sid=20230810104539">OpenSSH 9.4 released!</a>
+(0)</li>
+</ul></li>
+<li><time datetime="2023-08-07">Mon, Aug 07</time><ul><li><b><time datetime="2023-08-07T09:43:05Z">09:43</time></b>
+<a href="/cgi?action=article;sid=20230807094305">New routed <abbr>IPsec</abbr> <abbr>VPN</abbr> mode committed</a>
+(0)</li>
+</ul></li>
+<li><time datetime="2023-07-30">Sun, Jul 30</time><ul><li><b><time datetime="2023-07-30T11:07:11Z">11:07</time></b>
+<a href="/cgi?action=article;sid=20230730110711"><code>rpki-client</code> 8.5 released</a>
+(0)</li>
+</ul></li>
+</ul>
+
+</div>
+
+<div class="extra">
+<h2>Credits</h2>
+<p id="credits">Copyright ©
+<time datetime="2004">2004</time>-<time datetime="2008">2008</time>
+<a href="http://www.benzedrine.ch/dhartmei.html">Daniel Hartmeier</a>.
+All rights reserved.
+Articles and comments are copyright their respective authors,
+submission implies license to publish on this web site.
+Contents of the archive prior to
+<time datetime="2004-04-02">April 2nd 2004</time> as well as images
+and HTML templates were copied from the fabulous original
+<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20010331150409/http://deadly.org/">deadly.org</a> with
+<a href="http://monkey.org/~jose">Jose</a>'s and
+<a href="mailto:jamesp@deadly.org">Jim</a>'s kind permission.
+This journal runs as <abbr>CGI</abbr> with
+<a href="https://man.openbsd.org/httpd.8">httpd(8)</a>
+on <a href="https://www.openbsd.org/">OpenBSD</a>, the
+<a href="/src/">source code</a> is
+<a href="http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php">BSD licensed</a>.
+undeadly \Un*dead"ly\, a. Not subject to death; immortal. [Obs.]</p>
+
+</div>
+
+</div>
+</main>
+
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+</html>
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+
+
+
+<h1 class="sectionedit1" id="xfce_wayland_development_roadmap">Xfce Wayland Development Roadmap</h1>
+<div class="level1">
+<div class="plugin_note noteimportant"> This design document is intended for Xfce developers to begin brainstorming ideas for future development. This is a work in progress and does not imply any future implementation commitments.
+</div><ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#short_term_plans" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Short Term Plans (Xfce 4.18)</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1 node"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#long_term_goals" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Long Term Goals (target release unknown)</a></strong></div>
+<ul>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#agreed" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Agreed</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#topics_under_discussion" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Topics under discussion</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+</li>
+<li class="level1 node"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#component_specific_status" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Component specific status</a></strong></div>
+<ul>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#core_components" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Core components</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2 node"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#applications" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Applications</a></strong></div>
+<ul>
+<li class="level3"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#xfce4-screenshooter" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xfce4-screenshooter</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#thunar_plugins" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Thunar Plugins</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#panel_plugins" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Panel Plugins</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+</li>
+<li class="level1 node"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#testing" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Testing</a></strong></div>
+<ul>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#native_wayland" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">native wayland</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#xwayland" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xwayland</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <strong><a href="#links" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">Links</a></strong></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h2 class="sectionedit2" id="short_term_plans">Short Term Plans</h2>
+<div class="level2">
+
+<p>
+For Xfce 4.18, the plan is to ensure our applications are working acceptably on Wayland (those that already work or can be made to work with low effort). So, basically start testing with Weston and see if all menus, etc behave normally and ifdef Xlib code.
+</p>
+
+<p>
+Check the table in the <a href="#component_specific" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">component specific</a> section for details and labelled issues by group:
+</p>
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/xfce/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/xfce/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland" rel="ugc nofollow">https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/xfce/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland</a></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/apps/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/apps/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland" rel="ugc nofollow">https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/apps/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland</a></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/panel-plugins/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/panel-plugins/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland" rel="ugc nofollow">https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/panel-plugins/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland</a></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/thunar-plugins/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/thunar-plugins/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland" rel="ugc nofollow">https://gitlab.xfce.org/groups/thunar-plugins/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=5.%20Wayland</a></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h2 class="sectionedit3" id="long_term_goals">Long Term Goals</h2>
+<div class="level2">
+
+<p>
+It is not clear yet which Xfce release will target a complete Xfce Wayland transition (or if such a transition will happen at all).
+Below is a list of larger tasks which would need to be done in some way for such a transition to occur.
+</p>
+
+<p>
+Some of them are mostly agreed on by the Xfce devs, others are somewhat controversial (or no decision has been made so far).
+</p>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h3 class="sectionedit4" id="agreed">Agreed</h3>
+<div class="level3">
+<ul>
+<li class="level1 node"><div class="li"> Do not depend on XWayland</div>
+<ul>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> No xsettings</div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+</li>
+<li class="level1 node"><div class="li"> Use wlroots over libmutter</div>
+<ul>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> keep posibillity to run xfdesktop and xfce4-panel as separate components</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> Prevent dependency on libgnome-desktop</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> xfce4-panel and xfdesktop have been ported to Wayland using wlroots. There is also an <a href="https://github.com/adlocode/xfwm4/tree/wayland" class="urlextern" title="https://github.com/adlocode/xfwm4/tree/wayland" rel="ugc nofollow">unofficial port of xfwm4</a> in progress.</div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+</li>
+</ul>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h3 class="sectionedit5" id="topics_under_discussion">Topics under discussion</h3>
+<div class="level3">
+<ul>
+<li class="level1 node"><div class="li"> What about X11 backward compatibility?</div>
+<ul>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> As long as Nvidia does not support Wayland (by providing open drivers), it would be good to keep X11 backward compatibility (nouveau driver usually is slower)</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> Wayland compositors which were written from scratch like Weston or sway will never run as a x11 window manager. But others which started as x11 window managers such as kwin or mutter still keep their x11 window management code</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> We do not have the resources to maintain our own Wayland compositor</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level2"><div class="li"> FreeBSD provides <a href="https://hikari.acmelabs.space" class="urlextern" title="https://hikari.acmelabs.space" rel="ugc nofollow">https://hikari.acmelabs.space</a>, not sure what is the situation for OpenBSD (possibly libinput missing?)</div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+</li>
+</ul>
+
+<p>
+<a href="/releng/wayland_roadmap" class="wikilink1" title="releng:wayland_roadmap" data-wiki-id="releng:wayland_roadmap">Back to Top</a>
+</p>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h2 class="sectionedit6" id="component_specific_status">Component specific status</h2>
+<div class="level2">
+
+</div>
+
+<h4 id="core_components">Core components</h4>
+<div class="level4">
+<div class="table sectionedit7"><table class="inline">
+ <thead>
+ <tr class="row0">
+ <th class="col0"> Component </th><th class="col1"> native wayland </th><th class="col2"> xwayland </th><th class="col3"> Issues </th>
+ </tr>
+ </thead>
+ <tr class="row1">
+ <td class="col0"> exo </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> not used </td><td class="col3"> - </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row2">
+ <td class="col0"> libxfce4ui </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row3">
+ <td class="col0"> libxfce4util </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row4">
+ <td class="col0"> thunar </td><td class="col1"> ok (Missing icons will be fixed when xfsettingsd runs fine for wayland) </td><td class="col2"> not used </td><td class="col3"> - </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row5">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-appfinder </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> ? </td><td class="col3"> - </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row6">
+ <td class="col0"> <strong><a href="#xfce4-panel" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xfce4-panel</a></strong> ≤ 4.18.x </td><td class="col1"> Wont start. Error related to libwnck (is X11 only) </td><td class="col2"> malfunctions (no movement, rough click event, …) </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row7">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-session </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row8">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-settings </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row9">
+ <td class="col0"> xfconf </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row10">
+ <td class="col0"> <a href="#xfdesktop" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xfdesktop</a> ≤ 4.18.x </td><td class="col1"> no (crash on startup) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row11">
+ <td class="col0"> <a href="#xfwm4" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xfwm4</a> </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row12">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-power-manager </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row13">
+ <td class="col0"> tumbler </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row14">
+ <td class="col0"> garcon </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row15">
+ <td class="col0"> thunar-volman </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row16">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-dev-tools </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+</table></div>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h4 id="xfce4-panel">xfce4-panel</h4>
+<div class="level4">
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Port to Wayland done (Wlroots-based, targeted compositors: Labwc, Wayfire): <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/-/merge_requests/103" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/-/merge_requests/103" rel="ugc nofollow">https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/-/merge_requests/103</a></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> On Wayland the panel cannot use GtkSocket/GtkPlug any more to run plugins as external (separate processes). Initially, to advance in the porting of other features, it is enough to run them as internal (same process as the panel, so the crash of a plugin causes the panel to crash). If we want to get this back “natively” afterwards, it seems that we'll have to make the panel a Wayland compositor to some extent (<a href="https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/ch02.html#sect-Compositors-Embedding-Compositor" class="urlextern" title="https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/ch02.html#sect-Compositors-Embedding-Compositor" rel="ugc nofollow">Embedding Compositor</a>, see also <a href="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/74" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/74" rel="ugc nofollow">Allow embedding foreign wl_surfaces</a>). For the moment the socket/plug structure has been reproduced on Wayland using the layer-shell protocol and D-Bus, which, although not native, has the merit of simplicity and of reusing what exists (see also <a href="https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2022-October/033092.html" class="urlextern" title="https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2022-October/033092.html" rel="ugc nofollow">https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2022-October/033092.html</a>).</div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Regarding tray icons, the panel already implements the freedesktop.org StatusNotifierItem specification. Though the plugins don't use those yet. Some plugins could be ported to do so. –> We would need some sample skeleton to start from to make it easier for contributors. </div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+
+</div>
+
+<h4 id="xfdesktop">xfdesktop</h4>
+<div class="level4">
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Port to Wayland done: <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/-/merge_requests/43" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/-/merge_requests/43" rel="ugc nofollow">https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/-/merge_requests/43</a></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Workspaces support needs an X11/Wayland abstraction, and could use the wlr-workspace-unstable-v1 protocol on Wayland.</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Listing all toplevel windows (windowlist menu, window icons on desktop) needs an X11/Wayland abstraction, and could use the wlr-foreign-toplevel-management-unstable-v1 protocol on Wayland.</div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+
+</div>
+
+<h4 id="xfwm4">xfwm4</h4>
+<div class="level4">
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Unofficial port to Wayland in progress: <a href="https://github.com/adlocode/xfwm4/tree/wayland" class="urlextern" title="https://github.com/adlocode/xfwm4/tree/wayland" rel="ugc nofollow">https://github.com/adlocode/xfwm4/tree/wayland</a></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h3 class="sectionedit8" id="applications">Applications</h3>
+<div class="level3">
+<div class="table sectionedit9"><table class="inline">
+ <thead>
+ <tr class="row0">
+ <th class="col0"> Component </th><th class="col1 leftalign"> native wayland </th><th class="col2"> xwayland </th><th class="col3"> Issues </th>
+ </tr>
+ </thead>
+ <tr class="row1">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-terminal </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row2">
+ <td class="col0"> mousepad </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row3">
+ <td class="col0"> <a href="#xfce4-notifyd" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xfce4-notifyd</a> </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> notifications show in middle of screen, are decorated, and aren't always-on-top </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row4">
+ <td class="col0"> xfdashboard </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row5">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-taskmanager </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> no libwnck (appicons, <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-taskmanager/-/issues/75" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-taskmanager/-/issues/75" rel="ugc nofollow">#75</a>), no “identify window”, no systray icon (<a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-taskmanager/-/issues/78" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-taskmanager/-/issues/78" rel="ugc nofollow">#78</a>) </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row6">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-mixer </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row7">
+ <td class="col0"> ristretto </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row8">
+ <td class="col0"> catfish </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row9">
+ <td class="col0"> xfburn </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row10">
+ <td class="col0"> parole </td><td class="col1"> ok (<a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/parole/-/merge_requests/22" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/parole/-/merge_requests/22" rel="ugc nofollow">crash on startup fixed</a>) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> no systray icon (<a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/parole/-/issues/126" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/parole/-/issues/126" rel="ugc nofollow">#126</a>) </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row11">
+ <td class="col0"> <strong><a href="#xfce4-screenshooter" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xfce4-screenshooter</a></strong> </td><td class="col1"> no (crash after region is selected) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-screenshooter/-/issues?label_name=5.+Wayland" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-screenshooter/-/issues?label_name=5.+Wayland" rel="ugc nofollow">Issues</a> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row12">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-screensaver </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row13">
+ <td class="col0"> xfmpc </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row14">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-volumed-pulse </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row15">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-dict </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> ? </td><td class="col3"> - </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row16">
+ <td class="col0"> gigolo </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> settings dialog crashes (segfault, <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/gigolo/-/merge_requests/18" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/gigolo/-/merge_requests/18" rel="ugc nofollow">fixed</a>) </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row17">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-panel-profiles </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+</table></div>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h4 id="xfce4-notifyd">xfce4-notifyd</h4>
+<div class="level4">
+
+<p>
+GTK doesn't appear to do anything special if you set a window to be override-redirect or always-on-top. Window positioning isn't (always) controllable by the app on Wayland.
+</p>
+
+<p>
+MR for fixes: <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-notifyd/-/merge_requests/37" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-notifyd/-/merge_requests/37" rel="ugc nofollow">apps/xfce4-notifyd!37</a>
+</p>
+
+</div>
+
+<h4 id="xfce4-screenshooter">xfce4-screenshooter</h4>
+<div class="level4">
+
+<p>
+Wayland does not specify a native interface for the compositor for taking screenshots yet. Though there is a DBUS <abbr title="Application Programming Interface">API</abbr> offered by gnome(mutter?) for a <a href="https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal" class="urlextern" title="https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal" rel="ugc nofollow">desktop portal</a> and as well wlroots has a screenshot protocol
+</p>
+
+<p>
+So for xfce4-screenshooter there are the following options:
+</p>
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Add DBus Support for <a href="https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal" class="urlextern" title="https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal" rel="ugc nofollow">org.freedesktop.portal.Screenshot</a> (like that afaik screenshots should work with mutter)</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Add support for the wlroots screenshot protocol (link?)</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> wait until wayland specifies a native interface (see <a href="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/32" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/32" rel="ugc nofollow">here</a>), and use it when available (Would make alot of sense for many applications, e.g. any video conferencing tool for screencast, so they dont need to implement multiple <abbr title="Application Programming Interface">API</abbr>'s)</div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+
+<p>
+Note that backends for xdg-desktop-portals are as well in development for kde and wlroots:
+</p>
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://github.com/KDE/xdg-desktop-portal-kde" class="urlextern" title="https://github.com/KDE/xdg-desktop-portal-kde" rel="ugc nofollow">xdg-desktop-portal-kde</a></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr" class="urlextern" title="https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr" rel="ugc nofollow">xdg-desktop-portal-wlr</a></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+
+<p>
+Currently (Feb 2020) both <abbr title="Application Programming Interface">API</abbr>'s will give screenshots of the whole screen to any client. So far the user has not to approve a screenshot / give permission to specific applications (like e.g. on android). So the security is comparable to the X-Server.
+</p>
+
+<p>
+Se as well: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17777546" class="urlextern" title="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17777546" rel="ugc nofollow">1</a>, <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22752131" class="urlextern" title="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22752131" rel="ugc nofollow">2</a>
+</p>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h3 class="sectionedit10" id="thunar_plugins">Thunar Plugins</h3>
+<div class="level3">
+<div class="table sectionedit11"><table class="inline">
+ <thead>
+ <tr class="row0">
+ <th class="col0"> Component </th><th class="col1"> native wayland </th><th class="col2"> xwayland </th><th class="col3"> Issues </th>
+ </tr>
+ </thead>
+ <tr class="row1">
+ <td class="col0"> thunar-archive-plugin </td><td class="col1"> ok </td><td class="col2"> not used </td><td class="col3"> - </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row2">
+ <td class="col0"> thunar-media-tags-plugin </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row3">
+ <td class="col0"> thunar-shares-plugin </td><td class="col1"> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"> </td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row4">
+ <td class="col0"> thunar-vcs-plugin </td><td class="col1"> ok (tested git) </td><td class="col2"> not used </td><td class="col3"> - </td>
+ </tr>
+</table></div>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h3 class="sectionedit12" id="panel_plugins">Panel Plugins</h3>
+<div class="level3">
+
+<p>
+See details in the <strong><a href="#xfce4-panel" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xfce4-panel</a></strong> section about how to run external plugins on Wayland. At first, “works” below simply means “doesn't crash”, even after some elementary manipulations (eventually). It does not mean that everything works like on X11.
+</p>
+
+<p>
+The tests below were performed on 2022-10-12 by building from git-master for each plugin.
+</p>
+<div class="table sectionedit13"><table class="inline">
+ <thead>
+ <tr class="row0">
+ <th class="col0"> Component </th><th class="col1"> native wayland </th><th class="col2"> xwayland </th><th class="col3"> Issues </th>
+ </tr>
+ </thead>
+ <tr class="row1">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-battery-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row2">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-calculator-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (insensitive text entry) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row3">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-clipman-plugin </td><td class="col1"> <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-clipman-plugin/-/merge_requests/26" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-clipman-plugin/-/merge_requests/26" rel="ugc nofollow">Ported to Wayland</a> for the main part (clipboard manager via wlr-data-control), remains to do: <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-clipman-plugin/-/issues/87" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-clipman-plugin/-/issues/87" rel="ugc nofollow">use status notifier instead of status icon</a> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row4">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-cpufreq-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row5">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-cpugraph-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row6">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-datetime-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (merged in clock plugin since 4.17.4) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row7">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-diskperf-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row8">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-docklike-plugin </td><td class="col1"> crashes (Libwnck) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row9">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-embed-plugin </td><td class="col1"> outdated, probably unusable on Wayland anyway </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row10">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-eyes-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (the pointer is not followed outside the panel) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row11">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-fsguard-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row12">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-generic-slider </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row13">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-genmon-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row14">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-indicator-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row15">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-mailwatch-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row16">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-mount-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row17">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-mpc-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (though probably relying on non working stuff) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row18">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-netload-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row19">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-notes-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (colors all the panel in yellow (<a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-notes-plugin/-/merge_requests/8" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-notes-plugin/-/merge_requests/8" rel="ugc nofollow">fixed</a>), removing the plugin makes the panel quit (<a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-notes-plugin/-/merge_requests/13" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-notes-plugin/-/merge_requests/13" rel="ugc nofollow">fixed</a>)) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row20">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-places-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (icon issue, criticals when removing the plugin) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row21">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (with warnings), can crash (Libwnck): <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin/-/merge_requests/22" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin/-/merge_requests/22" rel="ugc nofollow">fixed</a> </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row22">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-sample-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row23">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-sensors-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row24">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-smartbookmark-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (insensitive text entry) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row25">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin </td><td class="col1"> crashes (gdk_x11 code, merged in systray plugin since 4.15.4 anyway) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row26">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-stopwatch-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row27">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-systemload-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row28">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-time-out-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (coredumps on pause and criticals whem removing/re-adding the plugin) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row29">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-timer-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (removing the plugin makes the panel quit (<a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-timer-plugin/-/commit/8554435d51f43d94044009e3cceaa355e825ebc4" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/panel-plugins/xfce4-timer-plugin/-/commit/8554435d51f43d94044009e3cceaa355e825ebc4" rel="ugc nofollow">fixed</a>)) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row30">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-verve-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (insensitive text entry) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row31">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-wavelan-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row32">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-weather-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row33">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin </td><td class="col1"> works (icons issue, menu window floating) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row34">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-windowck-plugin </td><td class="col1"> does not work (Libwnck) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+ <tr class="row35">
+ <td class="col0"> xfce4-xkb-plugin </td><td class="col1"> crashes (Libwnck) </td><td class="col2"> </td><td class="col3"></td>
+ </tr>
+</table></div>
+
+<p>
+<a href="/releng/wayland_roadmap" class="wikilink1" title="releng:wayland_roadmap" data-wiki-id="releng:wayland_roadmap">Back to Top</a>
+</p>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h2 class="sectionedit14" id="testing">Testing</h2>
+<div class="level2">
+
+<p>
+Info about testing specific components.
+</p>
+
+<p>
+Regarding the version to test: master, or latest dev release would be best, though latest stable release as well will do. Currently there is not much difference for most components. If you dont test master, best add info on which version you tested.
+</p>
+
+<p>
+If you run a NVidia GPU, you will need to use the “Nouveau” driver for testing, Since the proprietary NVidia driver does not provide Wayland support. (Though some things might work in some cases)
+</p>
+
+<p>
+In general, XWayland only is relevant if native Wayland does not work.
+</p>
+
+</div>
+
+<h3 class="sectionedit15" id="native_wayland">Native Wayland</h3>
+<div class="level3">
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Install Weston with your distribution package manager (if a Wlroots-based compositor is required, as for <strong><a href="#xfce4-panel" title="releng:wayland_roadmap ↵" class="wikilink1">xfce4-panel</a></strong>, see <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/-/merge_requests/103" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/-/merge_requests/103" rel="ugc nofollow">this MR</a> for more information)</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Maybe set a minimal configuration, for example <dl class="file">
+<dt><a href="/_export/code/releng/wayland_roadmap?codeblock=0" title="Download Snippet" class="mediafile mf_ini">~/.config/weston.ini</a></dt>
+<dd><pre class="code file ini"><span class="re0"><span class="br0">[</span>keyboard<span class="br0">]</span></span>
+<span class="re1">keymap_layout</span><span class="sy0">=</span><span class="re2">fr</span>
+<span class="re1">numlock-on</span><span class="sy0">=</span><span class="re2">true</span></pre>
+</dd></dl>
+</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Run <code>weston</code> in a terminal emulator, or better: in a tty with a different user, or by logging out of the X11 session first (the compositor may not have quite the same behavior, and this avoids interactions with the current environment)</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> If run in a terminal emulator, make sure at least the component to test isn't already running in your X11 session (e.g Thunar as daemon)</div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Open a terminal in the Weston session and start the component which is to be tested</div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+
+</div>
+
+<h3 class="sectionedit16" id="xwayland">XWayland</h3>
+<div class="level3">
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Install the package <code>xwayland</code></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> As above, but start weston with <code>weston --xwayland</code> and run the app with <code>GDK_BACKEND=x11 app</code></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> Some additions may sometimes be necessary, like <code>--backend=x11-backend.so</code>. See also <a href="https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html" class="urlextern" title="https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html" rel="ugc nofollow">https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html</a></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+<hr />
+
+</div>
+
+<h3 class="sectionedit17" id="links">Links</h3>
+<div class="level3">
+<ul>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/porting-mate-apps-to-wayland/12670" class="urlextern" title="https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/porting-mate-apps-to-wayland/12670" rel="ugc nofollow">Porting mate apps to wayland</a></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://frontpagelinux.com/articles/a-deep-dive-into-the-wayland-protocol-for-linux" class="urlextern" title="https://frontpagelinux.com/articles/a-deep-dive-into-the-wayland-protocol-for-linux" rel="ugc nofollow">A deep dive into the wayland protocol</a></div>
+</li>
+<li class="level1"><div class="li"> <a href="https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/-/commit/57410e2dffde5271443809a0dbd0280be262ba47" class="urlextern" title="https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/-/commit/57410e2dffde5271443809a0dbd0280be262ba47" rel="ugc nofollow">Check if current display is a wayland display</a></div>
+</li>
+</ul>
+
+<p>
+<a href="/releng/wayland_roadmap" class="wikilink1" title="releng:wayland_roadmap" data-wiki-id="releng:wayland_roadmap">Back to Top</a>
+</p>
+
+</div>
+
+ <!-- wikipage stop -->
+ </div>
+ <!-- In order to be able to use :empty, we will need to keep the following and the closing if tag and div tags on the same line -->
+ <div id="related">
+
+ <h2>Tools</h2>
+ <p><form action="/start" method="get" role="search" class="search doku_form" id="dw__search" accept-charset="utf-8"><input type="hidden" name="do" value="search" /><input type="hidden" name="id" value="releng:wayland_roadmap" /><div class="no"><input name="q" type="text" class="edit" title="[F]" accesskey="f" placeholder="Search" autocomplete="on" id="qsearch__in" value="" /><button value="1" type="submit" title="Search">Search</button><div id="qsearch__out" class="ajax_qsearch JSpopup"></div></div></form></p>
+
+ <ul>
+ <li><a href="/releng/wayland_roadmap?do=edit" class="action source" accesskey="v" rel="nofollow" title="Show pagesource [V]"><span>Show pagesource</span></a></li><li><a href="/releng/wayland_roadmap?do=revisions" class="action revs" accesskey="o" rel="nofollow" title="Old revisions [O]"><span>Old revisions</span></a></li><li><a href="/releng/wayland_roadmap?do=backlink" class="action backlink" rel="nofollow" title="Backlinks"><span>Backlinks</span></a></li><li><a href="/releng/wayland_roadmap?do=media&ns=releng" class="action media" rel="nofollow" title="Media Manager"><span>Media Manager</span></a></li><li><a href="#dokuwiki__top" class="action top" accesskey="t" rel="nofollow" title="Back to top [T]"><span>Back to top</span></a></li> </ul>
+
+ <p><bdi>releng/wayland_roadmap.txt</bdi> · Last modified: 2023/09/10 20:06 by <bdi>gael</bdi></p>
+
+ <!-- ********** ASIDE ********** -->
+ </div>
+ </div>
+
+ </div>
+ <div id="footer" class="main_width">
+
+<!-- ********** FOOTER ********** -->
+<div class="bars">
+ <div class="bar-left">
+ <form class="button btn_source" method="post" action="/releng/wayland_roadmap"><div class="no"><input type="hidden" name="do" value="edit" /><button type="submit" accesskey="v" title="Show pagesource [V]">Show pagesource</button></div></form> <form class="button btn_revs" method="get" action="/releng/wayland_roadmap"><div class="no"><input type="hidden" name="do" value="revisions" /><button type="submit" accesskey="o" title="Old revisions [O]">Old revisions</button></div></form> <form class="button btn_recent" method="get" action="/releng/wayland_roadmap"><div class="no"><input type="hidden" name="do" value="recent" /><button type="submit" accesskey="r" title="Recent Changes [R]">Recent Changes</button></div></form> <form class="button btn_index" method="get" action="/releng/wayland_roadmap"><div class="no"><input type="hidden" name="do" value="index" /><button type="submit" accesskey="x" title="Sitemap [X]">Sitemap</button></div></form> <form class="button btn_media" method="get" action="/releng/wayland_roadmap"><div class="no"><input type="hidden" name="do" value="media" /><input type="hidden" name="ns" value="releng" /><button type="submit" title="Media Manager">Media Manager</button></div></form> </div>
+ <div class="bar-right">
+ <form class="button btn_admin" method="get" action="/releng/wayland_roadmap"><div class="no"><input type="hidden" name="do" value="admin" /><button type="submit" title="Admin">Admin</button></div></form> <form class="button btn_login" method="get" action="/releng/wayland_roadmap"><div class="no"><input type="hidden" name="do" value="login" /><input type="hidden" name="sectok" value="" /><button type="submit" title="Log In">Log In</button></div></form> <a class="nolink" href="#dokuwiki__top"><button class="button" onclick="window.scrollTo(0, 0)" title="Back to top">Back to top</button></a> </div>
+</div>
+
+<hr class="a11y" />
+
+<div class="pad">
+ <div class="license">Except where otherwise noted, content on this wiki is licensed under the following license: <bdi><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/deed.en" rel="license" class="urlextern">CC Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 4.0 International</a></bdi></div>
+ <div class="credit">
+ Copyright 2003-2023 Xfce Development Team.
+ </div>
+ </div>
+
+</div>
+
+ </div>
+<!-- <hr class="a11y" /> -->
+
+ <div class="no"><img src="/lib/exe/taskrunner.php?id=releng%3Awayland_roadmap&1694692436" width="2" height="1" alt="" /></div>
+ <div id="screen__mode" class="no"></div> <!--[if ( lte IE 7 | IE 8 ) ]></div><![endif]-->
+</body>
+</html>
(DIR) diff --git a/tests/embed.html b/tests/embed.html
@@ -0,0 +1,6 @@
+<embed src="embedded.html" />
+
+<embed src="embedded.html2">
+
+<embed src="embedded.html3">
+</embed>
(DIR) diff --git a/tests/iframe.html b/tests/iframe.html
@@ -0,0 +1 @@
+<iframe src="iframe_location.html"></iframe>
(DIR) diff --git a/tests/unknown_entity.html b/tests/unknown_entity.html
@@ -0,0 +1 @@
+&something;