      F I D O N E W S         Volume 17, Number 52             18 Dec 2000
     +----------------------------+---------------------------------------+
     |  The newsletter of the     |   ISSN 1198-4589 Published by:        |
     |    FidoNet community       |   "FidoNews"                          |
     |          _                 |   1-714-639-0377     1:1/23           |
     |         /  \               |                                       |
     |        /|oo \              |                                       |
     |       (_|  /_)             |                                       |
     |        _`@/_ \    _        |                                       |
     |       |     | \   \\       |   Editor: Warren Bonner               |
     |       | (*) |  \   ))      |           editor@fidonews.org         |
     |       |__U__| /  \//       |           fidonews@netscape.net       |
     |        _//|| _\   /        |                                       |
     |       (_/(_|(____/         |                                       |
     |             (jm)           |   Newspapers should have no friends.  |
     |                            |                    -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
     +----------------------------+---------------------------------------+
            ZONE ONE COORDINATOR ELECTION DISCUSSIONS THIS WEEK
     


                        Table of Contents
     1. CHAT WITH EDITOR  .........................................  1
        *****EDITORIAL*****  ......................................  1
     2. LETTERS TO THE EDITOR  ....................................  2
        *****ECHO LETTERS*****  ...................................  2
     3. ARTICLES  ................................................. 10
        -=+ARTICLES+=-  ........................................... 10
     4. COLUMNS  .................................................. 13
        -+=+OL"WDB's COLUMN+=+-  .................................. 13
     5. FIDO NAVAL STORIES  ....................................... 15
        -++Fido Navy Sysops++-  ................................... 15
     6. RECIPES  .................................................. 16
        >>>>>Fidonet Chef's Recipes<<<<<  ......................... 16
     7. POET'S CORNER  ............................................ 19
        [[[POEMS]]]  .............................................. 19
     8. COMIX IN ASCII  ........................................... 20
        COMIX ASCII  .............................................. 20
     9. WANTED  ................................................... 21
        *****WANTED*****  ......................................... 21
     10. NOTICES  ................................................. 22
        *****NOTICES*****  ........................................ 22
     11. FIDONET BY INTERNET  ..................................... 25
     12. FIDONEWS INFORMATION  .................................... 30
        FIDONEWS INFORMATION  ..................................... 30
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 1                   18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                             CHAT WITH EDITOR
     =================================================================


     Hello to all Fidoland, well we f-i-n-a-l-l-y got past the USA
     Presidential election this week... thank God!  Now, perhaps, we can
     get some resolution to the Zone one election shortly. <G> They both
     have dominated the scene in North America long enough IMHO.  Next
     issue of the Snooze should have the announcement of the elected Z1C,
     barring a run-off. Fido-is-a-changing!  We all need to pitch in to
     help develop the best possible changes for our survival in this high
     tech communication network. If we don't, there is a possibility that
     the ICQ, IRC, AOL, MS, Netscape "messengers" will steal our client
     users. When they get enough members, you can expect they will almost
     simultaneously incorporate fees per month, maybe even per message. So
     hang tight, the battle is just begun in that arena...

     Speaking of battles, it is hard to understand sometimes how things
     like rules for an election can get so screwed up in interpretation.
     below is a good example and explanation by Carol:

     (17651) Fri 15 Dec 00  6:39p
     By: Carol Shenkenberger
     To: Lesley-Dee Dylan
     Re: Re: Changing FidoNet
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     *** Quoting Lesley-Dee Dylan from a message to Jerry Schwartz ***

      JS> Doing this when an election is actually pending is much
      JS> more troublesome, and that's why unanimous agreement
      JS> was appropriate in this case.

     LD> THERE WAS NO UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT!

     You missed something there.  To have an election that was outside the
                                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^
     requirements of P4, required unanimous agreement, and we didn't get it
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     A zone policy may fix it but we cant get one enacted before 5JAN01.
                                            xxcarol

                         ~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 2                   18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                           LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
     =================================================================

                        The debate continues..

     By: Jerry Schwartz
     To: Darrell Salter
     Re: R14 - Let it Alone!
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, Darrell...

     Dec 11, 2000 at 17:21, Darrell Salter wrote to Jerry Schwartz:

     JS> That would certainly be my opinion. A regional policy can't bind
     the other RCs.

     DS> Where was that opinion when Jim and Dallas thrust P4 on the RCs
     and changed this election?

     P4 is not a regional policy. I agreed to it when I joined, and every
     other sysop who joined since its adoption was supposed to do the same
     thing. P4 is binding on everyone, regardless of Region.

     I know you don't accept that, but you must surely understand that the
     rest of us do. Knowing that we believe P4 to be binding upon us, why
     do you insist that we should deny it?

     JS> However, either they bind the RC of that Region, or they aren't
     binding at all (in my opinion).

     DS> Regional policies only affect that Region. They have no place
     among the RCC. But that isn't what happened, is it?

     DS> 2) If all RCs must agree to sysop-level voting, then _ALL RCs_
     must agree to any and all forms of voting, including RC-voting on a
     sysop-representational basis. Since R12C is NOT in agreement with the
     current election scheme, the current election must not proceed and
     must be halted immediately.

     JS> Here we part company.

     DS> I knew you'd want it both ways. :)

     JS> because the situation is not symmetrical

      DS> Why isn't it?

     JS> and the assertion in your first sentence is neither self-evident
     nor supported.

     DS> It's very self-evident. If it isn't supported, why?

     JS> If one Region's policy can't bind another Region's RC, then
     clearly nine Regions' respective policies can't bind the tenth RC; I
     think you might agree with that, especially if you stop to think that
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 3                   18 Dec 2000


     those nine policies might contradict one another.

     DS> Exactly. They have no place among the RCC and have no validity as
     regards this elecsham.

     JS> Where we differ is that, in the absence of any ability for some of
     the RCs to unilaterally bind the others, we have to fall back on
     whatever is already considered binding on us all: some pre-agreement.

     DS> P4? Do all Regions agree to be bound by P4? I don't think so.

     JS> All of us, except you, consider P4 to be such a pre-agreement.

     DS> Not just me, give your head a shake.

     I was referring to the RCs; I haven't heard any of the others renounce
     P4.

     JS> P4 specifies that the RCs elect the ZC;

     DS> I'm well aware of what it says. The fact is that it is non-binding
     and irrelevant, has never been Sysop-ratified, and is simply a tool
     used by RCs to attempt to force Sysops to conform to their will. This
     elecsham is a perfect example of why P4 was tossed out with
     yesterday's trash in my Region. This elecsham is another fine example
     of P4 being used as a big stick by the RCs to elect yet another ZC
     from their ranks with no direct Sysop voice.

     JS> but it is silent as to how they make up their minds.

     DS> How convenient.

     JS> So any number of us could decide to conduct a sysop-level vote
     within our respective Regions without any new agreement, policy, or
     whatever you wish to call it.

     DS> As long as Sysops realize that the RCs are the superior Sysops
     that really call the shots.

     JS> For that reason, while we could not on the spur of the moment bind
     one another to conduct a plebiscite we also could not, on the spur of
     the moment, bind one another not to do so - within our own respective
     Regions.

     DS> You just made my point. P4 is not binding. Why then are we being
     forced to have a P4 election instead of a Sysop election?

     You say it is not binding. I say it is. Does that make me dishonest?
     ignorant? When I joined this organization, I agreed to abide by its
     rules. When I joined my current employer, I agreed to abide by its
     rules. When I joined a community theater group, I agreed to abide by
     its rules.

     Did I always agree completely with those rules? No - but I made a
     choice: I could either join despite any misgivings I might have, try
     to get the rules changed, or leave. I've made different choices under
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 4                   18 Dec 2000


     different circumstances, depending upon how strong my feelings were
     and how much I wanted to join each organization.

     Never did I join an organization with the express intent of
     disregarding its rules entirely. I have no right to do so. I would no
     more join FidoNet and renounce P4 than join the Catholic Church and
     renounce canon law. It would make no more sense than declaring myself
     to be a bird with the anatomy of a mammal.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     (17685) Fri 15 Dec 00  9:14p By: Jerry Schwartz To: Darrell Salter Re:
     ZC Election Procedures St:
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, Darrell...

     Dec 11, 2000 at 18:24, Darrell Salter wrote to Jerry Schwartz:

     JS> Representative (non-proportional) democracies, such as this one,
     are common even among mammals. The European Union, for example, is
     currently embroiled in this very issue. The U.S. Senate is structured
     this way, as are many of the controlling committees of NGOs and the
     United Nations. Organizations as diverse as NATO and Amnesty
     International govern themselves without "one man, one vote" in any
     literal sense. So whether or not FidoNet should is a legitimate matter
     for debate, whether you personally think it should be considered or
     not.

     DS> The difference of course being that such organizations serve their
     members, not the other way around like in Fidonet where the tail wags
     the dog.

     Not every citizen of the United States believes that the U.N. serves
     him or her; that may be true in Canada as well.

     JS> Many people do not believe that simpling walking away accomplishes
     anything. What did you accomplish, other than to guarantee that none
     of the other RCs would thereafter consider anything you said?

     DS> Hardly. Ever sat in on a meeting between union reprentatives and
     management officials? If you're offended by my style you wouldn't
     last 10 seconds with some of those people, on either side. Both sides
     are free to get up and walk out if they perceivee the other to
     operating in bad faith.

     I've rarely heard of any negotiation where the parties disagreed but
     did NOT accuse one another of operating in bad faith. I think Hallmark
     has cards for that. Saying it doesn't make it so.

     JS> Would it have been practical to pick an interim ZC at random from
     the nodelist? I don't think so; we would have chosen someone we knew,
     someone we knew could handle the job without any learning curve (since
     the whole point would have been to make a quick transition), and
     someone willing to do the job. Who do you think that would have been?

     DS> Dave Hamilton?

     JS> There are people complaining now because two of the sitting RCs
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 5                   18 Dec 2000


     are candidates; can you imagine what the volume level would have been
     if either had been appointed interim ZC?

     DS> Why select an RC at all?

     Does Dave have all of the necessary processing in place for producing
     a Diff, folding in the necessary updates from other Zones, and so
     forth? I don't, but I've had years of experience with the necessary
     tools. On the other hand, there are plenty of NCs who are baffled by
     MakeNL, and follow their predecessor's batch files by rote.

     JS> You know my opinion of appointing an interim officer who is
     forbidden to run (at least in the case where the pool of potential
     candidates is small); can you picture the scene if a sitting RC were
     interim ZC and also a candidate in the election?

     DS> Why select an RC at all? You make it sound like collecting, at
     most, 10 files and running MakeNl on them is some big deal.

     Well, perhaps I'm a little more dense than most but it took me awhile
     to get MakeNL running right at the Region level; in fact, I found a
     small glitch in my processing just recently after all this time.

     JS> The less nasty alternative was an immediate election.

     DS> In my opinion, the only alternative that made sense.

     JS>> Despite the opinions of those who said an election could be done
     in plenty of time, here we are with a schedule which will barely give
     us a new ZC by Christmas eve; and personally, I consider the schedule
     just about right. (My rule of thumb, based upon experience, is that
     administrative stuff such as our regional echo, the Snews, and the
     Diff only move once a week.)

     DS> This election could have been over already and done as a direct
     Sysop vote. 50% + 1 wins the day. Done deal until next time. Again, no
     big deal. Is that what we have? No. We have this gawd-awful sham
     instead.

     You are ignoring my comment about timing. Regardless of the mechanism,
     the timetable would have been about the same give or take a few days.
     What we didn't have was time to slug it out over the issue of
     Zone-wide voting.

     DS> Have you not considered that the very same sysops that are likely
     to vote in this RC-level vote could just as easily have voted
     directly? Why didn't that happen? Because Jim Cannell didn't like who
     his Region voted for last time? Sorry, that's just sick. That the RCs
     went along with it is sicker.

     See above. I'm quite aware that they could have voted directly; it was
     the time that would have been wasted arguing about it that we couldn't
     spare.

     JS> Remember, we had a firm deadline imposed upon us by David. With
     him set to exit right after New Year's Eve, and a new ZC being named
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 6                   18 Dec 2000


     right before Christmas, there will be a large amount of work to be
     done at a time when many people are travelling or otherwise engaged.
     If we had delayed the election by futher discussion, or if we had
     shortened the schedule, we would have made a bigger mess than we have
     now.

     DS> Nonsense. If you had started immediately by allowing Sysops to
     vote directly to an EC, instead of pissing around, it would have been
     over.

     JS> If we had bypassed determining the will of the sysops with regard
     to the election, you mean? Remember that little feedback session we
     went through?

     DS> long ago. When I saw that the RCs were going to screw the Sysops I
     walked away. You should have too. This kind of shit is the last thing

     JS> I disagree, at least for myself. You made a different choice. Just
     as it is your right to make a choice that I would not, it is my right
     to make a choice that YOU would not. I still believe that I will have
     more influence over what comes next than you will, largely because I
     did not choose to leave the table.

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: Jerry Schwartz
     To: Dave Hamilton
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, Dave...

     Dec 10, 2000 at 09:30, Dave Hamilton wrote to Jerry Schwartz:

     JS> Remember, the existing rules allow (even encourage) any RC to
     publicly summarize the gist of a discussion, to seek either input or
     support; but the condition is that individual opinions not be readily
     attributable to individuals (i.e., no quoting).

     DH> There is nothing wrong with the idea behind those rules. In fact,
     there was nothing inherently wrong with the echo in the first place.

     DH> The reason those rules were created was that there was potential
     for abuse prior to their existence.

     DH> The current argument for revision is that there has been abuse
     using them.

     I don't agree with your statement there. I'm not sure what you believe
     constitutes abuse, but I've heard two major issues: Darrell believes
     his actions were misrepresented by the other RCs; and a Zone-wide
     plebiscite was proposed and then abandoned.

     The latter is a pretty simple case: the RCs considered an idea and
     dropped it. The matter was hardly a secret, as everyone seemed to know
     with milliseconds.

     It's been said that opening the echo wouldn't interfere with the RCC's
     deliberations. If that were literally true, then nothing would have
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 7                   18 Dec 2000


     been different. In any case, I don't consider it "abuse" to consider
     an idea and reject it, regardless of the reasons. If you believe it
     was abuse to not have a Zone-wide plebiscite, then that's your
     opinion; but it wasn't abuse of the echo nor its rules.

     Remember, my justification for keeping the echo closed is so that the
     RCs can exchange opinions without every trial balloon causing a public
     uproar. If there is no public uproar, then there will be no public
     influence on the discussion beyond what could occur with the rules as
     they are.

     If you are advocating for public uproar, with the idea that every time
     an RC says something that someone disagrees with they should be
     publicly assaulted in Z1C or FN_SYSOP, then we do not see eye to eye.

     The former contention, that Darrell's statements were misrepresented,
     I simply disagree with. You know what he said, you know what the rest
     of us said. He believes that it is not the job of RC12 to do more than
     report opinions which he has been asked to pass on; I believe that an
     RC should do more than that. He believes that what he did constituted
     support for a Zone-wide plebiscite; it did, in a very narrow sense,
     but not in the broader sense of trying to win others over to R12's
     position.

     Quite honestly, since he believes he did exactly what he was supposed
     to do and no more, I don't understand why he has been so upset. He
     didn't get what he wanted, but that's got to be something he's
     experienced before. I don't see any abuse in that.

     Regards, Jerry mailto:jerryschwartz@comfortable.com
     http://www.writebynight.com

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Dave Hamilton
     To: Jerry Schwartz
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     DH> The current argument for revision is that there has been abuse
     using them.

     JS> I don't agree with your statement there. I'm not sure what you
     believe constitutes abuse, but I've heard two major issues: Darrell
     believes his actions were misrepresented by the other RCs; and a
     Zone-wide plebiscite was proposed and then abandoned.

     Add RCs claiming Darrell misrepresented his region to the RCC and
     misrepresented the RCC to his region. Add Carol's claim that Darrell's
     exact quote of Jim Cannell's post re the P4 legality of the election
     was false. Add Ross's support for Andrea's claim that R12 and R12C
     pushed for a speedy election.

     None of these could be verified without access to the echo for posts
     and context. All of them were straightened out with that access.

     Changing the meaning of someone's post when you paraphrase it is abuse
     of the system that permits only paraphrasing when trying to report
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 8                   18 Dec 2000


     accurately.

     JS> If you are advocating for public uproar, with the idea that every
     time an RC says something that someone disagrees with they should be
     publicly assaulted in Z1C or FN_SYSOP, then we do not see eye to eye.

     I am advocating no such thing. When I first proposed the idea, I
     suggested that the echo should be read-only and that interested sysops
     should clarify anything they want with their own RCs.

     If a member of the RCC initiates an issue in a public forum I see no
     reason why responses should not be made in the same forum. This is not
     related to the privacy of Z1REGCON unless the public statement happens
     to be about something whose context includes it.

     In every public discussion in which I have participated that involved
     R12C I have privately consulted him before forming an opinion. Every
     thread.

     JS> He believes that it is not the job of RC12 to do more than report
     opinions which he has been asked to pass on; I believe that an RC
     should do more than that.

     Opinions vary. He would get elected in R12; you might not.

     JS> He believes that what he did constituted support for a Zone-wide
     plebiscite; it did, in a very narrow sense, but not in the broader
     sense of trying to win others over to R12's position.

     Another person's method and effectiveness may have been different.
     Mine would not have been: I would have forwarded the regional
     consensus to the RCC in its private echo and debated it with Z1 sysops
     in a public echo such as this one where presumably the RCC hangs out.
     A different personality may not conflict as much as Darrell's did.
     Time will tell.



     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     (17694) Fri 15 Dec 00 10:45a
     By: Jerry Schwartz
     To: Warren Bonner
     Re: Changing fidonet
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, Warren...

     Dec 12, 2000 at 12:03, Warren Bonner wrote to Carl Austin Bennett:

      WB> Can an "Ad-hoc" committee be formed (seperate from the RCC) by
      WB> knowledgable sysops to look over those documents and formulate a
      WB> Zone One Policy 1.0 to be ratified by a Sysop vote, so the  *C's
      WB> have a real ratified policy to work with?

     In essence, I think that is what Ross was talking about. The committee
     would initially be composed of those who participated in the
     appropriate echo, although experience tells us that it would
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 9                   18 Dec 2000


     ultimately be a relative handful who put together the final draft. (As
     Thomas Jefferson said, when the authorship of the Declaration of
     Indepence was called into question, "It IS in MY handwriting.")

     Regards,
     Jerry
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     (17695) Fri 15 Dec 00 10:52a
     By: Jerry Schwartz
     To: Lesley-Dee Dylan
     Re: Changing FidoNet
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, Lesley-Dee...

     Dec 14, 2000 at 01:21, Lesley-Dee Dylan wrote to Jerry Schwartz:

     JS> Doing this when an election is actually pending is much
     more troublesome, and that's why unanimous agreement
     was appropriate in this case.

     LD> THERE WAS NO UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT!

     LD> You just finished stating that there cannot be an election unless
     there is a unanimous agreement amongst the RCs on how it is to be
     held.  And there WAS NO UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT!

     LD> Therefore, there cannot be an election.  It is void.

     JS> You can take snatches out of context all you want, but that
     doesn't make your assertion true. What I said, again and again, is
     that in order to impose a NEW set of rules while an election was
     imminent it would be appropriate to get unanimous agreement - to the
     new set of rules. The existing set of rules, by which we customarily
     operate, is P4. It allows the RCs to vote as they see fit. Some of us
     see fit to be guided by plebiscites within our respective Regions;
     that is in accord with P4. It doesn't require any change, any new law.

     You may not feel bound by P4, but you are also not required to vote.
     Nobody is making you do anything you don't want to do. You may ignore
     the election completely. However, I believe that in due time there
     will be a nodelist listing someone other than David Moufarrege as Z1C.
     What you will do when that happens, I have no idea.

     Regards,
     Jerry
                           ~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~~



     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 10                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                 ARTICLES
     =================================================================


                        More on our "Saviours".
                      By gary gilmore, 1:2410/400

     I would like to correct something I said last week.  I said this:

     "Note that our "saviour" doesn't seem to mind that the RC12 is also
     the REC12, which means he's doing this "mailmoving and nodelist
     clerking" that "Saviour Lesley" seems so vehemently against".

     Unfortunately, the RC change for R12 came through the same time that
     this article was published, so some might think I was talking of Carl
     Austin Bennett.  I was not.  I was referring to Darrell Salter, who
     was both R12C and R12EC at the time the articles writing.

     That said, just a reminder about the "saviour" tactics that I warned
     against:

     >Echo: SUPER-BITCH
     >From: Lesley-Dee Dylan (1:250/525)
     >To:   All.
     >Date: Wed Dec 13, 01:39
     >
     LD>I have just forced my mailer to send out my latest Gilmore attack,
     and hopefully, before he becomes aware of this message, he will have
     already taken the bait.  Be ready for it. He is probably going to try
     to backtrack on what he said in the snooze, and claim that he and
     Janis were NOT incompetent in the performance of their duties as
     assistant RC and REC to Martin Belcke.  But since he claims in his
     snooze article that it has been impossible in the past five months to
     hold an election for RC because of the broken mail feeds and outdated
     nodelists, then there is only one other option.  He was lying about
     why he has not held the election - he just wants to be the permanently
     appointed (BK-style) RC of Region 11. I knew that the fun in this
     election was going to turn out to be Gilmore :-)

     Oh my my my... it would seem that I have offended a "saviour", and for
     this I must pay. <laugh>  Here's a prime example of the methods I
     mentioned in my previous article about our wonderful "saviours".  If
     you don't toe the party line and quote, word for word, from the
     "saviour bible", ye shall be stoned and then cast in the pit of fire.

     One might also note that our "saviour", who is so concerned with
     saving all of Fidonet, seems to be more concerned with me than the ZC
     election at hand.  Ah well, not to worry.  A "saviour" has never been
     one to really worry about what's good for us when there's something
     they need to attack. <laugh>  It's just a little detour, I'm sure our
     "saviour" will be back to tell us all how wrong we are in no time,
     right after she's done trying to attack me for whatever she can come
     up with.  I'm truely terrified. <yawn>

     Well folks, like most of you, I'm lucky enough to have a real life,
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 11                  18 Dec 2000


     and really feel sorry for people like our "saviour" here, since Lesley
     spends all her time swimming in her own bile, practically choking on
     the hate she nurtures and lovingly tends to.  This is typical of so
     many of our "saviours".  But as I was saying... I have a real life.

     What our "saviours" do here in Fidonet means little to me.  They can
     attack, name call and lie, fling baseless accusations, use cheap
     innuendos and play all the basic "saviour" games they like, but at the
     end of the day, I still have a real life.  I have a wife that was 2
     hours from death this past Tuesday and had to have emergency surgery.
     I have too many hours to work (and am averaging no more than 5-6 hrs
     of sleep per night) since this is my busy season. (I work in a major
     theatre here in Detroit)  I don't have the time (nor the inclination)
     to sit around on my computer thinking up ways to be a "saviour",
     thinking all day long "how can I attack this or that person", or
     micro-analyzing everything everyone says, trying to detect something I
     can twist and mis-quote just to play "saviour" games.  I want to watch
     my wife get better.  I want to get though the busy time at work w/o
     being injured by some new crew guy.  I want to enjoy Fidonet as the
     hobby that brings me a little relief from the stresses of my real
     life.

     Most of us have real lives.  Fidonet is our hobby.  We enjoy it.  Some
     others (like our "saviours") see Fidonet as a constant battle. They're
     not happy unless they're fighting over something, anything, and
     attacking and tearing things or people down.  That makes them feel
     good.  That makes our "saviours" feel like they've won another battle
     in their holy war, and makes them feel like they're just a little more
     better than you are.

     It's sad, and I hope that somehow, some day, they'll get real lives
     like the rest of us, and realize that there's many things in the world
     that mean a lot more than Fidonet.  Scary things (like what my wife
     and I have just been through) and wonderful things (like some of the
     people I've met though this hobby), but there are other things, and
     winning "saviour wars" in Fidonet doesn't amount to anything.  Again,
     beware the "saviours", since they're only happy if you're completely
     agreeing with them.  If you're not, you must be beaten and clubbed.
     Much like Paul Newman in the movie "Cool Hand Luke", they want to help
     "get your mind right".

     Ignore the "saviours", and don't let them ruin the hobby you enjoy.
     Happy Holidays to all fellow sysops, and to our "saviours", I hope
     Santa brings them some happiness, so that they might share that
     instead of the hate, FUD and warlike tactics that they currently offer
     us all.

     Take care everyone, and Happy Holidays, no matter which ones you
     celebrate.

     --gary
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Sat 16 Dec 00  9:23p    Rcvd: Sat 16 Dec  9:23p
     By: Lesley-Dee Dylan, Greater Toronto Area HUB 2 (250/201)
     To: Warren Bonner
     Re: Snooze article
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 12                  18 Dec 2000


     St: Pvt  Rcvd
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------

     I loved Gary's snooze article of last week.  He really did provide me
     with such good ammunition to use against Janis. :-)

     Region 11 has been unable to hold an election since he was appointed
     temporary RC, because the regional mail was not flowing and the
     nodelist was out of date. OK.  Martin Belcke had some family trauma
     that kept him from doing his nodelist clerking jobs properly - but
     isn't that why so many RCs appoint themselves a "deputy" or
     "assistant" RC?   And just who was the assistant RC in Region 11 while
     Martin was incapacitated from his duties?

     And the regional mail was not flowing?  Some nets were cut off from
     their mail? Well ... that was not in the RC's job description.  That
     fell within the pervue of the REC.  Make sure that the nets were able
     to get their regional echos, and providing them with assistance in
     acquiring feeds for their echomail, and ensuring the routing tables
     were up to date so the netmail got through, was entirely the
     responsiblity of the REC, wasn't it?

     RC for five months, there had to have been people who were negligent
     in their jobs who allowed the nodelist to get out of date and the mail
     flow to break down and allowed the routing charts to become
     inaccurate.

     And just who were these people?

     Region,11,Central_United_States,IL_IN_KY_MI_OH_WI,Martin_Belcke,1-309-
     672-4430,9600,H16,CM,MO,XA
     ,2,Region_11_Assistant_RC,Dearborn_MI,Gary_Gilmore,
     1-313-582-0888,9600,V34,CM ,XA
     ,1,Reg_11_EchoCoord,Louisville_KY,Janis_Kracht,1-502-245-6778,9600,CM,
     XX,H16, V32b,V42b,V34,V32T,X2C,UREC

     So sweet of Gary to provide me with the documentation proving that
     Janis is incompetent in the performance of her Fido duties.  Now we
     all know why I am saying that Janis is unsuitable to hold the Z1C
     position.

     I have already thanked Gary profusely.

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 13                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                  COLUMNS
     =================================================================


     Thank each and everyone of you for your contributions to the Snooze,
     wheather assenting or dissenting, it would not be possible without
     your input. My heart felt thanks.

     Here is the latest release on the Lions Quarterback by coach Ross:

     Coach Bobby Ross had put together the perfect Lions team. The only
     thing he was missing was a good quarterback. He had scouted all the
     colleges, and even the high schools, but he couldn't find a ringer
     quarterback who could ensure a Super Bowl win.

     Then one night, while watching CNN, he saw a war-zone scene in Bosnia.
     In one corner of the background, he spotted a young Bosnian soldier
     with a truly incredible arm. He threw a hand grenade straight into a
     15th-story window 200 yards away -- ka-boom! He threw another hand
     grenade into a group of 10 soldiers 100 yards away -- ka-blooey! Then
     a car passed, going 90 mph -- bulls-eye!

     "I've got to get this guy!" Ross said to himself. "He has the perfect
     arm!"

     So, he brings him to the States and teaches him the great game of
     football, and the Lions go on to win the Super Bowl for the first time
     in history.

     The young Bosnian is lionized as the Great Hero of football, and when
     Ross asks him what he wants, all the young man wants to do is to call
     his mother. "Mom," he says into the phone, "I just won the Super
     Bowl."

     "I don't want to talk to you," the old woman says. "You deserted us.
     You are not my son."

     "I don't think you understand, Mother!" the young man pleads. "I just
     won the greatest sporting event in the world. I'm here among thousands
     of my adoring fans."

     "No, let me tell you," the mother retorts. "At this very moment, there
     are gunshots all around us. The neighborhood is a pile of rubble. Your
     two brothers were beaten within an inch of their lives last week, and
     this week your sister was raped in broad daylight."

     The old lady pauses, and then tearfully says:

     "...I'll never forgive you for making us move to Detroit."
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     heeeeeeehaha, Sorry Gary, no offence intended, <chortle>.

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~C U Next Week~~~~~~~~~~~~

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 14                  18 Dec 2000


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 15                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                            FIDO NAVAL STORIES
     =================================================================


     From: "william brabant" <buffalos3@webtv.net>aka "Buffalo"

     My name is Buffalo and I have the watch.

     What does a sailor do at sea to keep amused?? Surfing the net and
     sending emails is one of the newest  pastimes but is controlled by the
     mission of the ship and the area it is in. There is a television
     system on board both closed circuit, or a ships channel and satellite.
     Back in my day backgammon and card games were popular usually spades.
     Gambling was frowned upon  but poker games were allowed as long as
     there was no money visible . The really daring people would play craps
     ad thousands of dollars changed hands usually in a matter  of minutes.

     One night on watch in the boiler room an E-6 came running into the
     console booth wearing a hard hat underwear and shower shoes. The
     Master At Arms had walked in on a crap game and they had left 1500.
     lying on the deck and ran . Reason was that the Captain had threatened
     to bust everyone playing down to the rank of the lowest man present
     and they had been playing with an E-3.  The E-6 escaped but they all
     learned to be less conspicuous that night. As for the buffalo I wasted
     too many nights of sleep breaking even playing cards and decided that
     my sleep and telling jokes was a better pastime. Hope you enjoy
     today's offering.

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     A blonde walks into a pro shop, points to a golf club and asks the
     clerk the price. The clerk looked to where she was pointing and stated
     that the owner told him not to sell golf equipment to blondes because
     they always seem to return the items.

     The blonde left the shop, very mad, and walked down the street to a
     wig shop, where she bought a brunette wig.

     She returned to the pro shop and, pointing to the same golf club,
     asked the clerk the price.

     The clerk replied, "Sorry lady, the owner does not sell golf equipment
     to blondes because of the high return rate."

     "How did you know that I am a blonde," she asked.

     The clerk replied, "That's a golf umbrella, not a golf club."

                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 16                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                  RECIPES
     =================================================================


     By: Carol Shenkenberger
     To: The Fidonet Chefs
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05

           Title: Albacore or Yellowfin Tuna
      Categories: Seafood, Marinades
           Yield: 4 Servings

           1 c  Vermouth
         1/2 tb Lemon juice
         1/4 ts Marjoram
         1/4 ts Rosemary
           1    Onion, chopped
         1/2    Celery, rib, chopped
           1    Bay leaves
       1 1/2 tb Parsley, fresh, chopped
           2 lb Tuna
       1 1/2 tb Butter
       1 1/2 tb Flour

     Combine vermouth, juice, roesmary, onion, clery, bayleaf, parslely
     in a bowl, Add fish. Marinate 5-6 hr. Put in casserole dish, add
     marinade, salt & pepper. Bake 400 covered 35 min. until flaky. In
     skillet melt butter, stir in flour, cook 2 min. Pour of liquid from
     casserole to pan. Cook 5 min. Pour over fish. Serve

                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

           Title: Sashimi Bass sings from the sea
      Categories: Seafood, Xxcarol, Main dish
           Yield: 4 Servings

           2 tb Virgin olive oil
           1 tb Lemon juice
           1 ts Basil leaves, fresh only!
           1 ts Chopped fresh coriander
          20 oz Fresh raw  Sea Bass, boneles

     Ok, step one.  That Bass must be *very fresh*.  Swimming yesterday is
     your aim, and if it wasnt swimming at the most 3 days ago, its way too
     old for this! You can tell by smelling the fish.  If it smells more
     then faintly fishy, its too old.  Bake it or do something else with
     it.  Nuff said ok?

     Now, you chop that fish up into bite size pieces.  You can make the
     slices look pretty such as the japanese do, or just hack them up.
     Taste is the same.  Mix the otjher ingredients, and pour over the fish
     just before serving. If cutting fish ahead of time, store in a
     zip-lock type bag separate from the sauce.

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 17                  18 Dec 2000


     This can also be a side dish if your family doesnt eat much meat.  As
     such, it serves very well with a bowl of hot butter beans (dried large
     lima beans) and rice.  For a soup, consider Japanese Dashi or a mild
     pumpkin/carrot puree.  For a veggie, you cant beat steamed Bok Choy
     with this.

       From the kitchen of:  xxcarol

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

           Title: Sashimi Delight - Aku/Ahi
      Categories: Seafood, Xxcarol, Main dish
           Yield: 4 Servings

           1 lb Aku or Ahi (Tuna)
         1/2 c  Worstershire sauce (brown)
         1/2 c  Shoyu (soy sauce)
         1/4 ts Wasabi powder

     Now this is a simple and delicious mainstay in my home.  What you need
     is really *fresh* fish.  To tell if it is fresh enough, sniff it and
     if it smells more than faintly fishy, its too old for this dish. Make
     blackened fish of it in that case.

     What to do?  Chop up that fish pretty and bite sized.  Its also
     called Yellowfin or skipjack tuna.  Keep it in an airtight container
     until just before serving, then add the sauce in dipping bowls to the
     side of the fish.

     Goes perfectly with short or medium grain 'sticky rice' (regular rice
     made to not be fluffy, but stick together so easier eaten with
     chopsticks) and plain vegatibles such as green beans, Bok Choy
     cabbage, or sliced fresh cucumber pieces.  Add a few rice crackers and
     all is set.

     For dessert, consider slices of pear or fresh peach.

     Nutritional notes:  High in sodium due to the sauces, but low in fat
     and calories. Suitable for diabetics.

       From the kitchen of:  xxcarol

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

           Title: Dashi
      Categories: Xxcarol, Soups
           Yield: 4 Servings

           1 sm Kombu piece (seaweed/kelp)
           2 c  Water
           1 c  Katsuo bushi (dried bonito)

       The kombu piece will be about 4-5 inches square.

     Place on heat, remove kombu when it comes to a boil and add Katsuo
     Bushi. Once flakes sink, pour through strainer and discard flakes (or
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 18                  18 Dec 2000


     save for second soup use!).  Can be made without Katsuo Bushi, with
     Shiitake mushrooms in it's place for a less salty and vegetarian type
     but it needs a good 2 hours gentle boil to taste right.

     Optional additions galore!  Top picks are little chunks of Tofu, green
     onions, mushroom bits, shrimp, and shredded cabbage.

       From the kitchen of:  xxcarol

     MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05

     --- Telegard v3.09.g2-sp4
      * Origin: SHENK'S EXPRESS Norfolk VA 757-486-3057 28.8 Dual
     (1:275/100)


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 19                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                               POET'S CORNER
     =================================================================



     A POEM FOR THOSE OVER 30

     A computer was something on TV
     From a science fiction show of note
     A window was something you hated to clean
     And ram was the cousin of a goat.

     Meg was the name of my girlfriend
     And gig was a job for the nights
     Now they all mean different things
     And that really mega bytes.

     An application was for employment
     A program was a TV show
     A cursor used profanity
     A keyboard was a piano.

     Memory was something that you lost with age
     A CD was a bank account
     And if you had a 3 in. floppy
     You hoped nobody found out.

     Compress was something you did to the garbage
     Not something you did to a file
     And if you unzipped anything in public
     You'd be in jail for a while.

     Log on was adding wood to the fire
     Hard drive was a long trip on the road
     A mouse pad was where a mouse lived
     And a backup happened to your commode.

     Cut you did with a pocket knife
     Paste you did with glue
     A web was a spider's home
     And a virus was the flu.

     I guess I'll stick to my pad and paper
     And the memory in my head
     I hear nobody's been killed in a computer crash
     But when it happens they wish they were dead.

     ~Author unknown



     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 20                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                              COMIX IN ASCII
     =================================================================


     A Christmas card from New Zealand:

                      Introduction: G-day All Readers

                                    O
                                        O  O  O
                                                 O                  *
                MOORY COWristmas!                 .__.             /|\
                             .____________________|  |____.       /||o\
                            /______________________________\     /|o|||\
          ~   #    #       /________________________________\   /|||||o|\
           ~~  #  #          ||   |   ||||||||||||   |   ||    /||o||||||\
              ~(oo)          ||___|___||||||||||||___|___||   /||||o||||||
        /-------\/           ||   |   ||||||||||||   |   ||  /|o||||o|||o|
       / |     ||            ||___|___||||||||||||___|__ ||        | |
      *  ||----||            ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||oooooooo| |oooo
     oooo~~oooo~~ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


     ... Seasons Greetings. . . . from the Main Land of New Zealand!

     ~~~ ReneWave v2.00+

     --- xMail 1.00
      * Origin: Murphy's BBS  64 3 3519020  Christchurch  N.Z.  (3:770/245)


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 21                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                  WANTED
     =================================================================


     Hello everyone in every nation...
     I am asking you for any articles on anything you deem to be of
     interest to Fidoneters, or conversely, anything you would like to ask
     Fidoneters, seek opinions or solutions to problems you or a friend may
     have.

     Also I have solicited bilingual articles.  Articles submitted in your
     native language and in English, to be published sequentially in an
     issue of FidoNews. That will help strengthen Fido in membership nodes
     as more folks will have a place to practice their hobby, plus sharpen
     their skills with second or third language.

     And lastly, we are looking for programers who wish to tell us about
     their BBS program products.  We need to revitalize the strong roots
     that the programmers had established in the last two decades.  We need
     new programs also, even old programs reconstructed to work with the
     newer technologies developed in the last couple of years.

     Send any items to:
     wdbonner@pacbell.net
            or
     fidonews@netscape.net
            or
     editor@fidonews.org
           or
     ICQ = warbond #17773628

     Thank you in advance,
     Ol'wdb


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 22                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                  NOTICES
     =================================================================

     By: brenda donovan
     To: all
     Re: Z1C Election rules
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                         ZONE 1 COORDINATOR ELECTION - 2000
     The Z1C has announced an election, for a new Z1C. Per Policy4, the ZC
     is elected by the RC's under them.  It is the choice of the RC's to do
     this by the following method per P4 section 6.2.

     A Z1 Sysop is defined as any Sysop who is nodelisted in Z1 and
     physically located within the normal geographical boundries of zone 1.

     The nodelist used will be the nodelist.322 version.  Reasonable
     exceptions will be made during the nomination phase by the election
     coordinator if a node, net or region is accidently dropped from this
     version and this is validated by the RC or NC of the affected node.
     The term 'nodelisted' means listed in this version of the nodelist.

                                 Nominations

                Nominating time table: NOV 17-25, 2000
                All dates start at 00:00 and end at 11:59 PM EST

     Any nodelisted Z1 Sysop of Fidonet may nominate themselves or another
     nodelisted Sysop of of Z1 Fidonet for the position of Z1C.  The
     nomination must be made in the Z1_Election echo and should be
     addressed to the Election Coordinator.

     The nomination must include the name of the nominee and their Fidonet
     node number.

     Once a nomination has been received by the election coordinator, the
     name will be added to the list of nominees.  The nomination must then
     be accepted by the nominee and seconded by a Z1 Sysop in the echo to
     become a fully eligible candidate.

             Discussion Period NOV 26- DEC 02, 2000
             All dates start at 00:00 and end at 11:59 PM EST

     Following the nomination period, a period shall be allowed for each
     candidate to campaign for the position.  During this period,
     questioning of the candidates is encouraged.

             Regional Feedback Period  DEC 03-16, 2000
             All dates start at 00:00 and end at 11:59 PM EST

     Following the campaign period, the above period shall be allowed for
     each region to conduct selection proceedings in accordance with
     regional policy and such methods as are determined as appropriate
     based on regional policy or the desires of the Sysops within that
     region.  All voting or other feedback including what is desired if
     there is a run-off election and the primary candidate your region
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 23                  18 Dec 2000


     selected is eliminated, must be concluded no later than 16 DEC.  No
     time is alloted to conduct secondary polls of regional input once RC
     voting commences.

             Regional Coordinator Voting - DEC 17-22, 2000
             All dates start at 00:00 and end at 11:59 PM EST

     Following collection of regional input, the RC's shall cast their
     vote. (Location TBD at this time).

     Initial voting will be from 17-18 DEC.  The candidate with the most
     votes, wins.  This will be calculated by a simple majority where if
     any one candidate receives 6 RC votes, they will be announced as the
     winner.  If no candidate achieves 6 RC votes, a run-off election will
     take place from 19-20 DEC between the top 2 candidates.

     Contesting of the vote will take place from 21-22 DEC.  Once finalized
     and with no RC's contesting the vote, the results will be posted in
     the Z1_ELECTION echo.

     Note, this section may be ammended after the initial Z1C election
     process has begun, in order to finalize the location of the RC votes.

             Term begin/end: Turnover date to May 2003
     Upon completion of the election, the newly elected Z1C's term begins
     as soon as turnover can be accomplished but no later than 5 January
     2001. Due to early turnover, the normal 2 year period will be extended
     5 months and end May 2003.  This is in order to avoid mandating a vote
     over the holiday season in 2 years.

         Z1C Election Coordinator - 2000
                                            xxcarol
                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Sat 16 Dec 00  9:15p    Rcvd: Sat 16 Dec  9:15p
     By: Carol Shenkenberger, Shenk's Express (275/100)
     To: Warren Bonner
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                     *Weekly notes*

     In Region13, I try to post these, best as I can for all to
     see and comment on.  Sometimes there isnt more going on
     than 'gee it's raining and the tomatoes are happy' and
     sometimes it's news worth note by others <grin>.

     This week, a post came from the Z1EC that he is leaving
     Fidonet.  Jim Balcom has been around for ages but he says
     it's time for him to move on.  He will be missed.

     We've also got a Z1C election going on, and sorry, but I wont
     have reportable results in time for this issue, but should
     have by next issue.

     More when I have more ok?
                                 xxcarol

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 24                  18 Dec 2000


     Thanks Carol, for the heads up on Jim Balcom. Yes Jim has been a fido
     friend for years and years. Thanks Jim for your years of service, we
     are sorry to see you go, and maybe we'll see you return soon; old ties
     may fade a bit...<g>... but they are hard to break!

     Warm Regards,
     Ed


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 25                  18 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                            FIDONET BY INTERNET
     =================================================================

     ------------------------------------------------------
     *Fidonet-related sites

                       . -- -- -- -- --- -- -- -- -- .
                       |    FIDONET-RELATED SITES    |
                       ` -- -- -- -- --- -- -- -- -- '
                          Last update:  December 10, 2000

     FidoNet
     Homepage:     http://www.fidonet.org
     FidoNews:     http://www.fidonews.org   [HTML]
                   ftp://ftp.nwstar.com/fidonet/fidonews/
                   ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/fnews/
     Echolist:     http://www.baltimoremd.com/echolist/
     Echomail links: http://www.osirusoft.com/fidonet/fidoip.html
     SDS Files:    http://fidobbs.dk/download (Web Access to SDS)
     FTSC page:    http://www.ftsc.org/
     General:      http://www.writebynight.com/fidonet.html

     Zone 1:       http://www.z1.fidonet.org
       Region 10:  http://www.r10.org
         Net 102   http://home.earthlink.net/~kayshapero/net102.htm
         Net 103:  http://www.webworldinc.com/club103/
         Net 203:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8687/net203index.html
       Region 11:  http://oeonline.com/~garyg/region11/
        Net 2410:  http://www.vector.11.com/net2410/
       Region 12:  http://sparkys.dyndns.org
       Region 13:  http://www.net264.org/r13.htm
         Net 264:  http://www.net264.org/
         Net 275:  http://www.homershut.net/~mahoover/net275/
       Region 14:  http://www.ouijabrd.com/region14
         Net 282:  http://www.rxn.com/~net282/
       Region 15:  <vacant>
       Region 16:  <vacant>
       Region 17:  http://www.region17.net
         Net 140:  http://www.nwstar.com/~net140
       Region 18:  http://techshop.pdn.net/fido/

       Region 19:  http://bise.tzo.com/r19
         Net 124:  http://www.dallasinet.com/net124
                   http://texoma.net/~flv
         Net 130:  http://www.startext.net/homes/net130
         Net 393:  http://www.chatter.com/~wb/

     Zone 2:       http://www.z2.fidonet.org
                   ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/zone2 (Z2 nodelists etc.)
       Region 20:  http://www.fidonet.pp.se (in Swedish)
       Region 23:  http://www.fido.dk (in Danish)

       Region 24:  http://www.swb.de/personal/flop/gatebau.html (German)
                   http://www.was-ist-fido.de/
         Fido-IP:  http://home.nrh.de/fido/ (English/German)
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 26                  18 Dec 2000


       Region 25:  http://www.literary.freeserve.co.uk/net2502/
       Region 26:  http://www.nemesis.ie
          REC 26:  http://www.nrgsys.com/orb
       Region 27:  http://telematique.org/ft/r27.htm
       Region 29:  http://www.rtfm.be/fidonet/  (French)
                   http://Welcome.to/skynetbbs/
       Region 30:  http://www.fidonet.ch  (German)
     ? Region 33:  http://www.fidoitalia.net  (Italian)
       Region 34:  http://www.pobox.com/cnb/r34.htm  (Spanish)
           REC34:  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/4552/
       Region 36:  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7207/
       Region 38:  http://public.st.carnet.hr/~blagi/bbs/adriam.html
       Region 41:  http://www.fidonet.gr (Greek/English)
       Region 42:  http://www.fido.cz
     !    Net422:  http://www.fido.sk (Slovak/English)
       Region 50:  http://www.fido7.com/  (Russian)
        Net 5010:  http://fido.tu-chel.ac.ru/  (Russian)
        Net 5015:  http://www.fido.nnov.ru/  (Russian)
        Net 5028:  HTTP://5028.nordnet.ru/
        Net 5030:  http://kenga.ru/fido/  (Russian & English)
        Net 5049:  http://www.n5049.z2.fidonet.org  (English/Russian)
        Net 5074:  http://www.z2.n5074.fidonet.net
     ??  Net 5085:  http://www.fidonet.uz/ (Russian)

     Zone 3:       http://www.z3.fidonet.org

     Zone 4:
       Region 80:  http://fidobrasil.8m.com  (Portuguese)
       Region 90:
         Net 904:  http://members.tripod.com/~net904 (Spanish)

     Zone 5:       http://www.eastcape.co.za/fidonet/

     Zone 6:       http://www.z6.fidonet.org
       Region 65:  http://www.cfido.com/fidonet/cfidochina.html
                   (Chinese)


                          Fidonet Via Internet Hubs

     See also: http://www.osirusoft.com/fidoip.html

     a @ preceding an individual's name implies a virtual email
     address. The email is translated as follows
     firstlast@osirusoft.com will automatically route to the
     appropriate individual's email.  Anyone in this list will
     also receive routed notice of this feature.  In my case, it
     would still be joejared@osirusoft.com, but you get the idea.

     Also, as information is provided to me, I will be adding a
     latency field to each node, which is defined as the maximum
     time between when the message is received, and when it is
     sent on to other nodes, or available to be sent onward,
     defined in minutes. A latency of ! implies that there is an
     immediate response, and an attempt to deliver immediately
     after processing, or a "MinuteMail System", as it were.
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 27                  18 Dec 2000


                v-email flag firstnamelastname@osirusoft.com
                | email address or
     Node#      | Operator          | Facilities (*) | Speed,| Basic Rate
                |                   |                |latency|
     -----------+-------------------+----------------+-------+------------
     Zone 1     |                   |                |       |
       10/3     | Brenda Donovan    | FTP,UUE,BinkP  | 384K,30| n/c
       10/345   @ Todd Cochrane     | FTP,BinkP,VMOT | T1,!  | n/c
       13/25    @ Jim Balcom        | FTP            | 56k   | $20mo.
       18/500   @ Ross Cassell      | FTP, BinkP     |128K+,!| n/c
      19/68     | Ben Ritchey       | UUE:BFDS       | 33.6k | n/c
      103/5     @ Mark Luetger      | BinkP          | 384k,!| n/c
      103/153   @ Michael Box       | BinkP          | aDSL,!| n/c
      103/301   @ Joe Jared         | BinkP,FTP,NFS  | 384k,!| n/c
      103/401   @ Warren Bonner     | BinkP          | aDSL,!| n/c
      105/8     | Russ Johnson      | FTP,BinkP,VMoT | 384k  | n/c
      105/72    @ Larry James       | FTP, BinkP     | aDSL  | $50/yr
      106/1     @ Steve Loupe       | BinkP, FTP     | 128k  | ???
      106/6018  | Lawrence Garvin   | FTP, VMoT      | aDSL,60| n/c
      107/453   @ Jeffrey Estevez| FTP,BinkP,VMoT,UUE| 56k,60| $10 mo.
      140/1     @ Bob Seaborn       | FTP,BinkP      | T3,30 | $5/$16
      167/133   | Stephen Monteith  | BinkP          | 128k+ | n/c
      211/417   @ Korombos          | BinkP,UUE,FTP  | T1    | n/c
      218/109   @ Matt Munson       | BinkP,UUE      | 33.6k | n/c
      246/160   @ Mason Vye         | FTP, UUE       | 56K   | n/c
      249/116   | Carl Austin Bennett | FTP, UUE    |ADSL,60 | n/c
      280/169   | Brian Greenstreet | FTP            | 33.6  | $2mo.
      342/3     @ Richard Dodsworth | BinkP,FTP      | 128K+ | n/c
      395/670   | Arthur Stark      | BinkD,FTP      | 128k  | n/c
      379/1     @ Dale Ross         | FTP, BinkP,UUE | 256K+,! n/c
      396/1     @ John Souvestre    | FTP,VMoT       | T1,10 | $5/mo
      396/45    | Marc Lewis        | UUE            | 33.6  | $26/yr
     2604/104   @ Jim Mclaughlin    | FTP,VMoT,UUE   | 33.6  | $1mo
     2613/404   @ David Moufarrege  | BinkP,FTP,VMoT | 128k+,!| n/c
     2624/306   | David Calafrancesco  | VMoT        | 33.6  | n/c
     3407/4     @ jyates@bsdi.ldl.net | UUE,FTP            | 28.8  | n/c
     3632/84    | Robert Todd    |FTP,VMoT,UUE,BinkP | 57.6k | n/c
     3651/9     @ Jerry Gause       | FTP,VMoT       | 33.6  | $3/$6
     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 2     |
       20/11    | Henrik Lindhe     | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
       31/1     | Gabriel Plutzar   | BinkP          | T1+   | n/c
      203/600   | Mikael Karlsson   | UUE            | 64k   | n/c
      221/360   @ Tommi Koivula     | BinkP,UUE      | ???   | n/c
      236/205   @ Michael Kaaber    | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      246/2098  | Volker Imre       | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      280/1601  @ Jeroen VanDeLeur  | FTP,UUE        | 64k   | n/c
      292/620   | Eddy Missoul      | VMoT, UUE,BinkP| 64k   |N/C
      292/624   | Steven Leeman     | UUE          | 64k     | N/C
      292/907   | Bart Verhaeghe    | BinkP,VMoT,UUE | 64K   | n/c
      292/2003  | Eric Vaneberck    | BinkP          | 768k  | n/c
      301/1     | Peter Witschi     | BinkP          | 768k  | n/c
      332/807   | Roberto Mascolo   | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      335/535   @ Mario Mure        | BinkP,VMot,UUE | 64k   | n/c
      335/610   | Gino Lucrezi      | UUE            | 33.6  | n/c
      344/201   | Julio Garcia      | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 28                  18 Dec 2000


      346/3     @ Carlos Navarro    | UUE            | ???   | n/c
      382/100   | Sinisa Burina     | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      406/555   | Ofir Michaeli &   | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      406/555   | Marius Kaizerman  | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      423/81    | Milos Bajer       | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      464/4077  | Serguei Trouchelle| UUE            | 19.2  | n/c
      465/204   | Va Milushnikov    | BinkP          | 33.6k | n/c
      469/84    | Max Masyutin      | VMoT           | 256k  | n/c
      480/112   | Adam Sarapata| FTP, VMoT, UUE,BinkP| 128k  | n/c
     2411/413   @ Dennis Dittrich   | UUE,BinkP      | 64k   | n/c
     2446/301   @ Lothar Behet      | BinkP,VMoT,UUE,FTP | 64K   | n/c
     2474/275   | Christian Emig    | UUE            | 64k   | unkn
     5030/115   | Andrey Podkolzin  | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
     5100/8     | Egons Bush        | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
     5020/1159  | Gennady Kudryashoff | UUE          | 33.6  | n/c
     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 3
      633/260   @ Malcolm Miles     | FTP,BinkP      | 64K   | n/c
      640/954   | Rick Van Ruth     | FTP,VMot,UUE,BinkP| 56K| n/c
      774/605   @ Barry Blackford|BinkP,VMoT:10023,ifcico,FTP |33.6| n/c

     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 4
      801/161   @ Renato Zambon     | UUE            | 33.6  |n/c
      905/100   | Fabian Gervan     | VMoT,UUE,BinkP | 128k  | n/c
      902/18    | Javier Tejedor    | UUE            | 33,6  | n/c

     --
     * FTP   = Internet File Transfer Protocol
     * VMoT  = Virtual Mailer over Telnet (various)
     * UUE   = uuencode<->email type transfers
     * BinkP = front end mailer for TCPIP networks
     * NFS   = Linux Networking
     ----------------------------------------------
     Fidonet oriented news servers

     news.osirusoft.com
     news.tardis.net

     Fidonet oriented chat rooms.

     room #fidonet  5PM (PDT 11AM GMT) Sundays
     irc.osirusoft.com  (Peers wanted)

     ----------------------------------------------

     Please send updates, corrections and suggestions to
     Joe Jared, 1:103/301, joejared@osirusoft.com.  All email addresses
     here for purpose of corresponding with fidonet members about
     obtaining a feed.  Improper use of the virtual email addresses, and
     most especially, email addressed to blockme@relays.osirusoft.com
     will be considered a request to be blocked by my open relay spam
     stopper at http://relays.osirusoft.com



     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 29                  18 Dec 2000


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     FIDONEWS 17-52               Page 30                  18 Dec 2000


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