      F I D O N E W S         Volume 17, Number 50             04 Dec 2000
     +----------------------------+---------------------------------------+
     |  The newsletter of the     |   ISSN 1198-4589 Published by:        |
     |    FidoNet community       |   "FidoNews"                          |
     |          _                 |   1-714-639-0377     1:1/23           |
     |         /  \               |                                       |
     |        /|oo \              |                                       |
     |       (_|  /_)             |                                       |
     |        _`@/_ \    _        |                                       |
     |       |     | \   \\       |   Editor: Warren Bonner               |
     |       | (*) |  \   ))      |           editor@fidonews.org         |
     |       |__U__| /  \//       |           fidonews@netscape.net       |
     |        _//|| _\   /        |                                       |
     |       (_/(_|(____/         |                                       |
     |             (jm)           |   Newspapers should have no friends.  |
     |                            |                    -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
     +----------------------------+---------------------------------------+
            ZONE ONE COORDINATOR ELECTION DISCUSSIONS THIS WEEK
     


                        Table of Contents
     1. EDITORIAL  ................................................  1
        -=+Editorial+=-  ..........................................  1
     2. GUEST EDITORIAL  ..........................................  3
        -=+GUEST EDITORALS+=-  ....................................  3
     3. LAND OF THE LOST NODES  ...................................  7
        *****NavyNode*****  .......................................  7
     4. LETTERS TO THE EDITOR  ....................................  9
        -=+LETTERS TO EDITOR+=-  ..................................  9
     5. ARTICLES  ................................................. 12
        -=+ARTICLES+=-  ........................................... 12
     6. COLUMNS  .................................................. 16
        -=*+DALLAS' COLUMN+*=-  ................................... 16
        -=*+JANIS' COLUMN+*=-  .................................... 23
        -=*+ROSS' COLUMN+*=-  ..................................... 29
        +*RUTH ARGUST'S COLUMN*+  ................................. 38
     7. GETTING TECHNICAL  ........................................ 45
     8. WE GET EMAIL  ............................................. 49
        -=+ECHO MESSAGES OF NOTE+=-  .............................. 49
     9. NET HUMOR  ................................................ 54
        -=*Jokes for today*=-  .................................... 54
     10. QUESTION OF THE WEEK  .................................... 56
        -=+THIS WEEKS QUESTIONS+=-  ............................... 56
     11. NOTICES  ................................................. 59
        ===+NOTICE+===  ........................................... 59
     12. FIDONET BY INTERNET  ..................................... 61
     13. FIDONEWS INFORMATION  .................................... 66
        FIDONEWS INFORMATION  ..................................... 66
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 1                    4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                 EDITORIAL
     =================================================================


     Hi friends in Fidoland...er, fight-o-land! I hope you all have your
     sense of humor caps on this week!  Wow... what a week it has been.
     As ol' Clem Cadidalhopper says onna hot day, "Boy-howdy it's hotter'n
     a fire-cracker"! Well the temperature in the echoes your editor has to
     work with, plus phone calls and netmails, indicates it is about to
     reach "RED-LINE" warning level.  Everyone is excited, the adrenaline
     level is high, and the feistiest sysops already have their contest
     gloves on and are swinging.  I just hope that EVERYONE comes together
     when the election is over, and not act like Floridians... oops 'scuse
     me Andrea, honest I wasn't talking about you. <G>

                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            FRIENDS

     Love starts with a smile, grows with a kiss, and
     ends with a tear.

     Don't cry over anyone who won't cry over you.

     If love isn't a game, why are there so many players?

     Good friends are hard to find, harder
     to leave, and impossible to forget.

     You can only go as far as you push.

     Actions speak louder than words.

     The hardest thing to do is watch the one you love,
     love somebody else.

     Don't let the past hold you back, you're missing
     the good stuff.

     Life's short. If you don't look around once in a
     while you might miss it.

     A best friend is like a four leaf clover, hard to
     find and lucky to have.

     Some people make the world special just by being in it.

     Best friends are the siblings God forgot to give us.

     When it hurts to look back, and you're scared to look
     ahead, you can look beside you and your best friend
     will be there.

     True friendship never ends.

     Friends are forever.
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 2                    4 Dec 2000


     Good friends are like stars....You don't always see
     them, but you know they are always there.

     Don't frown. You never know who is falling in love
     with your smile.

     What do you do when the only person who can make
     you stop crying is the person who made you cry?

     Nobody is perfect until you fall in love with them.

     Everything is okay in the end. If it's not okay,
     then it's not the end.

     Most people walk in and out of your life, but only
     friends leave footprints in your heart.

     Send this on to everyone special in your life,
     even the people who really make you mad sometimes.

     Remember, every minute spent angry is sixty seconds
     of wasted happiness.

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 3                    4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                              GUEST EDITORIAL
     =================================================================


     By: Dave Hamilton, Aurora Exploratoria (229/622)
     To: Warren Bonner
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Answering a question about the election choice offered to R17 sysops,
     RC12 Darrell Salter responded:

     They don't. R17, like many Regions, believe in *C partisanship. They
     couldn't care less about Fidonet sysops except as a manipulative tool
     to get what they want. The R17 Good Ole Boys prop up their own Good
     Ole Boy in return for favour and power. Now they're hoping the Good
     Ole Boys at the RC level will prop him up as Z1C. That's why they
     advertise him as the best of the Good Ole Boys. He is. He didn't even
     flinch at selling out the sysops with P4, just like Ross, and both
     quickly and proudly exclaimed 'What a Good Ole Boy am I'. Has nothing
     to do with the choice of sysops. Whichever one is elected will serve
     the RCs and the RCs will serve them. Watch what happens, especially
     for those that have helped them perform the rape of the sysops.

     Dallas claims he'll do away with the system that sees ZC appoint RC
     who in turn appoints ZC. He'll never do that. He's into acquiring
     power not relinquishing it. Dallas is into manipulation and will use
     every tool available to him, especially Pee4. It's been his modus
     operandi as long as I've known him. That's where he gets his kicks.
     That's what makes Fidonet "fun" for him. I suspect he secretly
     despises sysops and wants only to lord over them. He'll be positively
     gleeful at the prospect of being an RC-elected Z1C. Once he's there,
     he'll be just like Satti, and it'll be eons before we're rid of him.

     Ross is nowhere near as intelligent as Dallas. Ross is a yes-man
     claiming to represent sysops but actually doesn't represent anyone
     that doesn't approve of him. He'll say just about any thing to any one
     to get the approval his sorry, frightened ego needs. He is deathly
     afraid of Dallas and I suspect he craves approval, perhaps because he
     was ignored as a child and is seeking that approval vicariously
     through Fidonet. Dallas knows this and will continue as Ross' father
     figure.

     Both are extremely dangerous *C-for-lifers that will choke the life
     out of this network in Zone 1 if elected by their RC buddies. Their
     goals are identical ...

     Getting what they want at the expense of the sysops. They both see
     themselves as superior sysops, and let's face it, most RCs do. Their
     reasons are different and have nothing to do with the betterment of
     Fidonet and it's sysops. One's a manipulator, one's a yes-man. Neither
     one has a shred of integrity where Fidonet sysops are concerned. I
     wouldn't trust either one of them. What they both have going for them
     is that most sysops don't care if they are truly represented or not.
     Pee4 saw to that many years ago by giving the RCs the big stick to use
     against any sysop that rose up to challenge them. Remember, we just
     recently saw 2 RCs, one of them Dallas, pick up that stick and use it
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 4                    4 Dec 2000


     against any sysop that dared to exercise a choice.

     Look for more of the same in the future.

     Ross the yes-man quickly sold out the sysops and fell in line. One
     region and one RC alone has demonstrated any spine, and that has
     brought onto them P4 threats of excommunication and a carefully
     orchestrated hate-mongering campaign. Such is the P4-era of Fidonet,
     the one Tom Jennings objected to so strenuously, and it'll get much
     worse soon. Watch for it.
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: Gary Gilmore
     To: Ruth Argust
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     RA> I have not jumped to =any= candidate's defense in this election.

     Of course not.  You're too busy trying to beat up on all of them.  You
     seem to have all the answers, but you declined to be a candidate for
     the Z1C position. If you truely know how it should all work, then one
     would think that you'd be more than happy to help our hobby by
     volunteering to lead.  Of course, I also respect anyone's decision to
     participate as much or as little as they like, but don't hold a lot of
     respect for those that can tell everyone how it should be done while
     standing on the sidelines.  To those types, I can only say "Show us
     how it should be done by running for the position yourself".

     I have great respect for all the candidates for being willing to take
     the unfounded accusations, tarring, implications, character
     assasinations and general miserable attitudes of some here just for
     the "honor" of VOLUNTEERING, not actually DOING the job yet, but
     taking all this crap just for VOLUNTEERING. Then they'll have two
     years of being beat up all over the Fidonet echoes when they don't
     serve the whims of each and every individual. (That "what's in it for
     ME" or "what have you done for ME" syndrome.  Gosh, what an honor.

     They probably ALL deserve to be Z1C just for putting up with it.  No
     where in policy, or any other Fidonet document, does it state or imply
     that "Those that run for any office in Fidonet shall subject
     themselves to be covered in flaming dogshit, have their parentage
     questioned, be lied about and have to answer each question to the
     satisfaction of each and every person", but that's what happens.  Some
     of the same people that would have poo-pooed what Clinton did as "none
     of our business" would hold a Z1C candidate (someone who doesn't have
     control of taxes or nuclear weapons) to a much, much higher standard.
     It's a no-win situation, and we wonder why ZCs retreat, or quit. Hmmm,
     can't imagine why.

     My "defense" of Janis wasn't a defense, it was pointing out what YOU
     were on about.  Let's see...

     1) Janis mentions FileGate in her lists of activities. 2) You state
     that FDNs aren't Fidonet.  You say this a few times. 3) You then start
     to ask leading questions about FileGate stuff.

     {I say something here, which you call "defense".)

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 5                    4 Dec 2000


     4) You then toss up an old conflict you had with Janis regarding the
     FileGate. 4a) When some question you about it, you basically state
     "Well, SHE brought it up first".  Cheesy.

     Hmmm...  Seems you were using your line of questioning not because of
     concerns for the ZC position, but as a weapon to "get even" for some
     past event which you harbor a grudge over.    Truely honorable.

     I too have had disagreements with Janis WRT the FileGate.  However, I
     don't hold a grudge over them.  I'm not going to use that against her,
     because I feel she's a good candidate.  (Indeed, I nominated Janis
     because there were only 2 "real" candidates IMHO, and the rest were
     nominated "in spite" or because someone thought they were being funny.
     I don't take the ZC position lightly enough to play those games with
     nominees.)  I wanted to see a wider playing field and more choices.
     Perhaps others, instead of stamping their feet and crying "THIS
     ELECTION IS POOPY AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO PLAY AND WE'RE GOING TO TELL
     OUR MOMMY ON YOU <pout pout>", should have nominated candidates that
     they believed in, and we'd have an even larger choice, and a more
     varied ballot. That didn't happen, so oh well.  <shrug>

     I've had disagreements with Dallas, though I think he's a good
     candidate.  I'm not going to hold a grudge and use this time to beat
     him up to get even for something in the past.  I know that, if he's
     elected, we'll have differences, which I'm willing to work
     with/around/to change.

     I've had disagreements with Ross, though I think he's a good
     candidate.  I'm also not going to hold a grudge and use this time to
     beat him up to "get even".I know that, if he's elected, we'll have
     differences, which I'm willing to work with/around/to change.

     Point being, *I* can have differences with the elected ZC without
     trying to sabatoge them in the election.  Differences are a part of
     nature.  Being able to deal with them on a rational and honest level
     are part of being an adult.

     Now, let's take your line of questioning.  You're were obviously
     leading up to a "get even" sort of thing.  Let your grudges go, and
     ask yourself "will candidate X be good for the good of Fidonet as a
     whole?".  I think they all would be, with varying degrees of how
     they'll do it.  The ZC is but one leader, your RC is another, and the
     RCs will balance out the ZC.  No renegade ZC will be able to do much
     if your RC (and the other RCs) are bucking them on the behalf of their
     regions.

     To paraphrase "ask not what your ZC will do for you, as what you can
     do for Fidonet".  What have -you- done for Fidonet, Ruth?  What's your
     legacy? If you're better and have done more than these three
     candidates, then by all means be holier-than-thou if that's what you
     want.  All of these people have volunteered to do things "above and
     beyond" those asked of Joe Average Sysop to help better the hobby, or
     at least a higher level of resonsibility in it. I commend them for
     that, and I thank them for being willing to parade around with a huge
     target on their backs so people like you can shoot arrows at it.

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 6                    4 Dec 2000


     I have no problems with any of the candidates, and look forward to the
     decision of my region as to who they want to lead the zone, no matter
     which person it is.

     --gary

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 7                    4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                          LAND OF THE LOST NODES
     =================================================================


     (14725) Thu 30 Nov 00  9:25p    Rcvd: Sat 2 Dec  9:22a
     By: SHANNON TALLEY
     To: WARREN BONNER
     Re: Navy?
     St: Rcvd
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     WB>I wasn't seeking an official declaration, just an ARTICLE exalting
     the lifestyle of a sailor on a technically equipped ship, at sea doing
     what most sysops do at home land side.  Would be interesting to know
     how the computer time is allotted, and what your duties are.  What is
     your rate? How old are ya? Do you do two year stints between xfers?
     Can you get the area/base/sta/ship you choose in xfers?  I wasn't
     looking for mil. secrets about the ship at all... they are most likely
     available in Mil.com anyway. <G>
               =============================================


     Hi Warren!

     I'll try and answer these to the best of my ability.  I'm writing this
     using DOS Edit on my personal laptop using Bluewave.  I connect to the
     ships network using a P266/NT based computer and software specially
     configured to the ship's system.  We can't install anything special on
     the server simply due to the possibility that some sailor might give
     the network a virus. It is a very logical security precaution.
     Bandwidth is somewhat limited, but I can't go into details regarding
     our bandwidth's capabilities or limitations.  I download a QWK file
     from my BBS at www.fidotel.com / telnet.fidotel.com. I've got a simple
     way to download QWK via HTML on my BBS.  It's VERY handy. Simply click
     a URL on my QWK page, and it creates a QWK file and it's automatically
     Emailed it to me.

     I am an "Intelligence Specialist First Class" (E6). Due to my
     occupation, I have unfettered access to the Internet.  I spend most of
     my day reading material generated on other networks.  Some of my time
     is spent reading CNN Emails I have sent to me as well as doing
     research on some news sites. I really enjoy the "White House Press
     Releases" as they are distributed in Echomail.

     I'm 33, and I've been in the Navy nearly 14 years.  I've been assigned
     to an F14 Squadron (jets), Naval Special Warfare (SEALs), Instructor
     Duty, and the ANZIO is my second ship.  In "my" occupation we serve 3
     years at an over-seas job or ship, and 3 years stateside (shore) duty.
     I have 2 years left on the ANZIO and 3 1/2 years shore duty and I will
     be eligible for retirement. So far, I have received orders everywhere
     I have requested.  I am in a small and very manageable occupation, so
     we usually get what we want (as long as the request isn't unreasonable
     or outside our standard sea/shore rotation).

     Basically I am an information manager.  I funnel the right information
     to the right people which helps tactical commanders make sound
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 8                    4 Dec 2000


     tactical decisions.

     The crew has unfettered access to Email unless they have abused Email
     in some way.  Internet access is available to the crew certain times
     of the day or night depending on bandwidth availability or
     restrictions.  We have a general lounge with several computers
     available for Email and games. Most crew members have a computer
     available to them in their work center.  Everyone who wants to send
     and receive Email has a computer available to them.

     When I first came in the Navy, Email was never heard of.  I had used
     Fidonet before and thought Email was just a "dream" in the Navy.  The
     fact is, it has changed the way many of us function.  "NOW" when I go
     to sea for a long period of time, I have my bills forwarded to me here
     on the ship.  I then connect to my bank and write online checks which
     my bank mails to my creditors (for only 5.00$ per month).  I receive
     voicemail and faxes to my 800 number using Efax.com which are then
     forwarded to my Email account here on the ship. I can also "Send"
     faxes via Email using Efax. Technology has made going to sea much more
     bearable than what it used to be.  "Instant" mail has made staying in
     touch with our families so much easier.

     The true benefit of all this technology was that I would often record
     a voice message on the computer and attach it to Email and mail it to
     my daughter.  She would reply by leaving a message at my 800 number. I
     could listen to her say, "I love miss you daddy".  It would often
     bring a tear to my eye as I was trying to do my job while operating
     off the coast Yugoslavia in the Adriatic Sea.


     I realize most of this is kind of jumbled thoughts... poorly
     organized... I just don't have allot of time out here to sit and write
     a thoughtful page. Please take this, and take some literary liberty
     with it and see if you can make it a little more coherent.  Also -
     please run spell check.. this DOS edit doesn't have it... :)

     Thank you Warren! Shannon

     ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5 *
     Origin: FidoTel on the Web! www.fidotel.com, Virginia Beach!!
     (1:275/311)
                              ~~~~~~~~~~END~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 9                    4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                           LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
     =================================================================


     By: Lesley-Dee Dylan, Leftover Hippies (250/525)
     To: Warren Bonner
     Re: Snooze submission
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     MY OPINIONS ON THE Z1C CANDIDATES:


     THE BENEVOLENT ELFLORD Dallas Hinton - This guy believes that he knows
     what his region wants, and needs, and he will take care of it for
     them.  He believes he is benevolent. Hebelieves he knows best.  He
     believes that it is in the best interest of the sysops of Fido that
     the existing administrative structure and power of Fido is taken care
     of in all cases, even if it means losing a few sysops along the way.
     His region in Western Canada should not be required to hold any
     elections, because the sysops of his region do not want them, and he
     knows this because hedetermines what the sysops of his region want. If
     The Benevolent Elflord is elected as Z1C, he will >know< our needs are
     that we never be bothered with anything devisive or stressful like
     democracy everagain.

     THE WOULD-BE ELFLORD Janis Kracht - This gal believes just about
     everything Dallas believes, withoutthe part about benevolence.  She
     was trained by Elflord-for-Life Martin Belcke, who recently resigned
     his Elflord position in Region 11, turning the reins overto his best
     buddy Gary Gilmore.  In five months, Gary has not been able to
     "manage" to pull an election together (his latest excuse is that there
     is a Z1Celection on, so the region cannot have an election at the same
     time - didn'tstop Region 12).  Janis turns to Gary for help on all
     matters that are over her head, which is just about everything.  Gary
     is the asshole who filed a policy complaint against Net 163 for
     providing a node number to a node in Malaysia when there was no other
     way for him to be in Fido.  Janis is expected to lean on Gary for
     support for a while, then get full of herself and throw him off. When
     she figures out that she is not capable of handling the position, and
     doesneed help after all, she will turn to Dallas Hinton, and he will
     end up controlling the zone.  Since Janis objects strongly to any hint
     that Region 11 should have an election for RC, do not expect to every
     be bothered with an election for Z1C again if she wins.

     THE KISS-ASS ELFLORD Ross Cassell - This mail mover does not see a
     conflict of interest between mailmoving and nodelist clerking.  He
     believed that the zone should have been allowed to have a one-sysop,
     one-vote, non-electoral college, direct vote for the Z1C position, but
     backed down on his position as soon as Dallas Hinton saidno and then
     Ross changed his vote.  This is what we can expect from Ross
     throughout his term as Z1C.  At the end of his two-year term, Ross
     Cassell can be depended upon to try to hold an election for Z1C.  If
     Dallas Hinton still wants to be Z1C, then we will have an election, so
     that Dallas can try to grab the reins of power.  If Dallas Hinton has
     decided that it is better to be the puppet master behind the Z1C, and
     let Ross take all the flack, while Dallas holds all the power, then we
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 10                   4 Dec 2000


     have no chance in hell of ever having a Z1C election again.

     My suggestion is that the first place vote go to Ross, and the second
     place vote to Dallas.  Janis is the biggest threat to Fido I have seen
     in a long time.
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Michael Grant To: Ross
     Cassell Re: Questions
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Ross;

      A little clarification on a point or two, if you please...

     MG>  1. Will you work actively as Z1C to bring about changes to the
     Fidonet P-4.07 policy document? If these efforts produce a palatable
     document for the majority of members of Zone 1, will you present
     it to the other Zone coordinators as a possible new policy document
     for all of Fidonet?

     RC> No. If we went this route, the other zones would see this as
     a ZONE1 authored document. Rather we get all zones to send
     representativces to a committee of sorts.

     It is my opinion (without any proof, I readily admit) that it is
     mainly Zone 1 that desires change, and that the will does not exist in
     other zones to change the document. What steps do you think you could
     take to confirm or deny this from within the ZCC? Would you take the
     other zone coordinators at their word or would you seek opinion from
     individual sysops in other zones, perhaps via an independant poll?

     MG> If the other Zones seem opposed or indifferent to it, will you
     then work to have it adopted as Zone 1 policy?

     RC> As suggested by myself earlier, I would favor the RC> creation of
     a Z1 policy document.

     Would you prefer to first attempt making a network-wide change to the
     P-4.07 document over drafting a Zone 1 policy?

     MG> Would you attempt to remove any RC whom you discovered was going
     against the wishes of his or her region, if that region had no recall
     mechanism? What criteria would you consider a valid one for such a
     removal?

     RC> Not unilaterally.  I would consult with the members of that
     region to find out whats going on, what they want et al?

     Would your consultation be mainly weighted by the sysops of the
     region, or would you also consult the RCC? Can you state in some form
     of a percentage basis if you consulted both, what the ratio of weight
     of consideration you would lend to each group?


     Thank You.
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 11                   4 Dec 2000


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 12                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                 ARTICLES
     =================================================================


     By: Steve Quarrella
     To: ZC Candidates
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     I think George brings up a good point to address.  What are your
     thoughts on this one?

      * Forwarded from '** FTSC_PUBLIC'
      * Originally by George Roberts, 1:220/10
      * Originally to Leonard Erickson
      * Originally dated Wed 29 Nov 2000  10:52P

      -*- Forwarded message follows: -*-

     -=> Leonard Erickson wrote to George Roberts <=-

      -=> Quoting George Roberts to Steve Quarrella <=-

     GR> I believe that the ideal would be that ANYONE who has a POTS line
     be listed in the nodelist based on geographic area, and that
     anyone who is ION be listed in a completely seperate region.  That
     way people could easily see that the people were ION based on
     their node number.

     LE> Two problems. First, "net" numbers *aren't* as closely tied to
     region numbers as some folks think.

     I understand that.

     LE> Second, a number of people get *really* irate at the idea of
     "forcing" ION nodes into different nets.

     Well, I wasn't stating that we should *force* people into the ION net,
     just that if someone was applying for a node # in Fidonet, they could
     be placed in an ION net for ease of getting them set up.  Do you
     realize that it took me weeks to get into Fido?  Not because the
     people who I was contacting weren't helpful, because they definately
     were.  It's because there is NO WHERE that states HOW to get into
     Fidonet if you are an Internet Only node.

     I had to happen across someone who gave me point access and then route
     netmails to people I thought could help.

     Obviously, someone who is ION with an existing node number would not
     be forced to switch nets.  I'm just talking for ease of bringing new
     sysops into Fidonet.  In case people haven't noticed, Fidonet's
     numbers are slipping...  yet people are putting up telnet BBSes
     everyday.  Why aren't we getting these people quickly and easily into
     Fidonet?



     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 13                   4 Dec 2000


     Regards,

     George A. Roberts IV, email: groberts@nexusbbs.net Developer, Nexus
     Bulletin Board System http://www.nexusbbs.net/ *
     telnet://bbs.nexusbbs.net

                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: David Calafrancesco
     To: all candidates
     Re: questions for the candidates...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello all!

     I haven't seen any platforms from any of you as of yet so we need to
     ask some questions to get the measure of you as potential ZCs.

     1) Are you willing to bind yourself to only invoking P4.07 to solve a
     problem rather than prevent someone from doing what they feel needs to
     be done? Examples would be using P4.07 to force a node into a local
     geographic net against their will when they want to be listed
     elsewhere and have an NC/RC willing to have the listing etc...

     2) Are you willing to bind yourself to accepting the will of the
     members of a region in selecting their own RC (eg sysop voting in a
     region)?

     3) In Region 13 we have a local election policy that allows for a
     recall vote for RC, will you bind yourself to accept the results of
     such a recall should it ever be needed?

     4) What experience do you have working with people you disagree with?
     4a) Can you work with them without losing your temper? 4b) Have you
     lost your temper working with people you found disagreeable, if so,
     what happened and what were the circumstances?

     5) What circumstances (other than a dead telenumber) in this day and
     age are sufficient to toast a node's number? 5a) Do you support
     leaving a 'toasted' node in the nodelist pending their appeals except
     in the very rare case of there being demonstrable harm to the network
     if the node is left in the nodelist pending the appeal?

     6) Do you have any other duties in FIDO? 6a) Will they conflict with
     your being the ZC? 6a1) if so, what do you plan to do about them?

     7) Do you feel that P4.07 needs to be fixed? 7a) If so, in what ways?
     7a1) What do you feel you can do to bring about change?

     8) What do you feel should be done to market this hobby to potential
     new customers?

     9) Do you support the inclusion of IP Only nodes? 9a) Do you support
     IP Only nodes in coordinator positions? 9b) Do you support the
     creation of an IP Only region or at least an IP Only net? 9c) Do you
     agree that any node in north america (at least) on the internet is
     local to every other internet node and as such could band themselves
     together into a net if they so desire?
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 14                   4 Dec 2000


     10) What techincal changes should be made in FIDO to make it more
     stable and open to potential new members?

     Thanks...

     Dave Calafrancesco, Team OS/2 dave@drakkar.org

                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Dallas Hinton
     To: Steve Quarrella
     Re: Suggestion for the future
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Steve -- on Nov 30 2000 at 10:06, you wrote:

     SQ> I think George brings up a good point to address.  What are your
     SQ> thoughts on this one?

     George is absolutely right -- there is no reason why we shouldn't be
     contacting telnet BBSes to invite them to join FidoNet. Everybody
     would win, imo.

     Who should do this? It would make sense for the invite to come from
     the NC of the net the telnet system might belong to, but as ZC I'd
     certainly have no problem writing a message which someone could
     deliver on my behalf. If *I* happen to see a telnet system I'll
     deliver it myself, but the more eyes the better!

     Cheers... Dallas

                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Foxy Ferguson
     To: The Candidates
     Re: Questionaire
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Some of the members of my net wish me to forward to them the
     candidate platforms along with voting instructions. Here are
     eight questions for you as a candidate. Please try to cover
     these concerns as succinctly as possible.

     1) How long have you been a member of Fidonet?

     2) What volunteer/appointed/elected positions have you held
     during that time?

     3) What do you envision the Z1C position to entail?

     4) Do you believe you have the time and wherewithall to do
     justice to the duties you would be called upon to perform?

     5) What is your vision of Fidonet's future and what can be
     done to achieve it?

     6) As objectively as possible, analyze yourself and indicate
     the qualities you possess that would have a bearing on how well
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 15                   4 Dec 2000


     you would be able to fulfill the Z1C job as you view it.

     7) Why did you accept the nimination?

     8) Why do you think you would be a =better= person for the job
     than the other two candidates?

     I, the silent ones of my net, and no doubt many others shall
     appreciate your response to these points and I, personally, wish
     to thank all three of you for deciding to seek the Z1C job,
     despite the obvious hazards.

     Regards,
     Foxy
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Jack Yates
     To: Steven Horn
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     SH> In other words, David did not get a sysop election across Zone 1
     (if that is what he wanted) but he did get a sysop election within
     each region.  Since he authorized the release of the election rules
     that led to this, he can't have been totally upset.

     JY> I've watched this football get kicked from one end of the parking
     lot to the next and wonder why no one has realized:

     David Moufarrege is the ZC, yes; David is also a SysOp, one SysOp out
     of many in Zone 1.  While David can *want* a Zonewide election that
     does not involve the ultimate appointment by the RCC as mandated in
     Policy and say so pubicly *as a SysOp*, he cannot order one *as the
     Zone Coordinator*.  Whether some of us deny it, ignore parts oor all
     of it, adhere to the spirit, but not the letter, or embrace it fully,
     Policy 4.07 does exist and is the guiding documentof this hobby; to
     decree that an election such as several members of Region 12 would
     like may be an improvement over what has been done in the past but the
     Policy Wankers would call him on the carpet with a swiftness, I'm
     sure. Further, a Z1C could (figuratively) walk into the ZCC, sit down
     at the table and be told to go back and be properly appointed before
     taking that seat; i.e. he would be powerless in the ZCC and not
     particularly strong among the folks inZone 1 who still believe in
     Policy, of which there are more than a few.

     AFAIC we have the best of elections we can have at this point in time
     and if weare to do otherwise in the future, we should create a Zone
     Policy that mandates the RC reflect the choice of their regions in a
     Zone-wide election.

     However, before such a policy is created, it should be determined if
     the grunt SysOps of all the regions actually *want* to vote on every
     issue.
                         ~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~



     -----------------------------------------------------------------
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 16                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                  COLUMNS
     =================================================================


     By: Dallas Hinton
     To: All
     Re: Z1C questions 1 of 3
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Group: Now that I'm home from work and have had time to consider
     your questions, I'd like to try and answer them all in one big
     message. That way, you've got all my answers in one place!

     From: David Calafrancesco

      1) Are you willing to bind yourself to only invoking P4.07 to solve a
     problem rather than prevent someone from doing what they feel needs to
     be done? Examples

     Absolutely -- one of the basics of P4, imo, is the concept that each
     sysop is a self-governing entity and that the purpose of Policy is
     define standards for us to communicate easily. In the old days, that
     meant enforcing zone-mail hour -- but now that's unnecessary (at least
     in Zone 1) and Policy should be changed.


      2) Are you willing to bind yourself to accepting the will of the
     members of a region in selecting their own RC (eg sysop voting in a
     region)?

     Absolutely -- just I have done with NCs in Region 17, so I would do
     with RCs if I were the ZC. And before anyone comments, let me tell you
     right out that I have replaced an NC on two occasions, and closed down
     several nets because of missing NCs. In every case, I took those
     actions as a last resort, and with appropriate consultation and
     support from the affected members.

      3) In Region 13 we have a local election policy that allows for a
     recall vote for RC, will you bind yourself to accept the results of
     such a recall should it ever be needed?

     Yes.

      4) What experience do you have working with people you disagree with?
     4a) Can you work with them without losing your temper? 4b) Have you
     lost your temper working with people you found disagreeable, if so,
     what happened and what were the circumstances?

     :-)) I'm a high school teacher, involved in Career Preparation (Work
     Experience) programs. I regularly have to deal with other teachers who
     disagree with letting students leave school for a week to experience
     the work world. We're still able to sit together in the staff room.
     :-)  I HAVE lost my temper with some -- I do my best to bite my tongue
     and go away until I can regain my temper -- if necessary, I apologize
     to them and try again.

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 17                   4 Dec 2000


      5) What circumstances (other than a dead telenumber) in this day and
     age are sufficient to toast a node's number?

     Beats me -- I'm sure there are some (Major and repeated spamming comes
     to mind) but I sure don't want to make up a blanket rule. Such things
     should be dealt with on a case by case basis with input from all
     affected parties, and from the RC council. RCs tend to have a lot of
     people skills, for the most part, as well as technical skills and it
     would be foolish of any ZC to ignore that resource.

      5a) Do you support leaving a 'toasted' node in the nodelist pending
     their appeals except in the very rare case of there being demonstrable
     harm to the network if the node is left in the nodelist pending the
     appeal?

     Yes, even if it means providing an independent number (I've had to do
     that on one occasion).

      6) Do you have any other duties in FIDO? 6a) Will they conflict with
     your being the ZC? 6a1) if so, what do you plan to do about them?

     I'm currently RC 17, and will be resigning that in early Spring,
     regardless of the outcome of this election. If I am chosen as ZC, I'll
     resign earlier. I move a small amount of mail for a small group of
     friends -- I don't see any conflict there.

      7) Do you feel that P4.07 needs to be fixed? 7a) If so, in what ways?
     7a1) What do you feel you can do to bring about change?

     P4 is badly out of date. Much of it is still quite workable ("too
     easily annoyed", for example) but other parts are just plain
     ridiculous (Zone mail hour) or fuzzy (ION). I believe I can bring
     together good people to redraft P4. A multi-stage approach will be
     needed, first to amend the revision process, then to do the actual
     revisions. Along the way, we may be able to use a Zone Policy to help
     accomplish what we (as a group of sysops) decide we want our hobby's
     policy to be.


     8) What do you feel should be done to market this hobby to potential
     new customers?

     I've a number of ideas, but again I'd like to get input from the zone
     rather than trying to play the expert. I'm a coordinator, not a expert
     with all the answers.

     9) Do you support the inclusion of IP Only nodes?

     Yes, absolutely.

     9a) Do you support IP Only nodes in coordinator positions?

     With some hesitation, yes. The hesitation is that I think it's
     important that no sysop become disenfranchised by losing the ability
     to contact his/her coordinators even though s/he has only POTS
     connectivity. I've seen several suggestions for work-arounds, and I
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 18                   4 Dec 2000


     suspect we'll have to again deal with this situation case by case.

     9b) Do you support the creation of an IP Only region or at least an
     IP Only net? 9c) Do you agree that any node in north america (at
     least) on the internet is local to every other internet node and as
     such could band themselves together into a net if they so desire?

     Yes on b and c. I already have an IP net in my region, although it's
     not exclusively IP.

     10) What technical changes should be made in FIDO to make it more
     stable and open to potential new members?

     I wish I knew! Obviously we have to use the Internet to make echomail
     and filebone transfers fast and affordable. Equally obvious, those of
     us still running a BBS need to maintain POTS and (I'm working on this
     for my system) add Telnet capability. Beyond that, I think it's time
     we got some of our good people writing/assembling turn-key packages
     that will work as well as a Yahoo- type email account. Connectivity
     first, then technical knowledge -- goodness knows I couldn't have got
     MY system running without help and the challenge was to find that
     help!

     Continued to next message....
     By: Dallas Hinton
     To: All
     Re: Z1C questions 2 of 3
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi All -- following up a message from Dallas Hinton to you:

     From : Foxy Ferguson

     1) How long have you been a member of Fidonet?

     I set up my first system on March 1, 1988, and joined FidoNet almost
     at once.

     2) What volunteer/appointed/elected positions have you held
     during that time?

     NEC (2 years, I think), NC (2 years), and RC (7 years)

     3) What do you envision the Z1C position to entail?

     The most important job, of course, is Nodelist building and
     distribution (yes, a nodelist clerk!). However, other jobs (in no
     particular order of importance) include representing Zone 1 to the
     other ZCs, coordinating the Zone as a whole (through a
     representational process that starts with the individual sysop and
     works up through the NC / RC chain), hearing any policy complaints or
     appeals beyond the RC level, and coordinating the formation and work
     of various groups to develop software packages, FidoNet advertising
     packages, and Policy revisions, and, of course, providing technical
     assistance wherever possible.

     4) Do you believe you have the time and wherewithall to do justice to
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 19                   4 Dec 2000


     the duties you would be called upon to perform?

     I do, or I wouldn't have accepted the nomination. I gave it a lot of
     thought and discussion before deciding, and my wife still thinks I'm
     nuts! :))

     I'm close to taking early retirement from work; I have most evenings
     free at home, and have a lot of experience as a coordinator.

     5) What is your vision of Fidonet's future and what can be done to
     achieve it?

     I think I've addressed that in my earlier message.

     6) As objectively as possible, analyze yourself and indicate the
     qualities you possess that would have a bearing on how well you would
     be able to fulfill the Z1C job as you view it.

     I've had close to 20 years as a teacher of adolescents, and I'm still
     (mostly) sane. I've spent most of those years persuading
     administrators to give my programs more money (with some successes and
     some failures). I'm a reasonably calm person and can usually find the
     humour in things that go wrong! I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.
     And yes, I think I can even work with Ward, despite our philosophical
     differences!

     7) Why did you accept the nomination?

     Sheer stupidity?  (see above) :-)

     8) Why do you think you would be a =better= person for the job than
     the other two candidates?

     I'm not sure I do think that. I believe that any of the three of us
     would do a good job for FidoNet, and if I'm not the winner I won't be
     all that unhappy!

     I, the silent ones of my net, and no doubt many others shall
     appreciate your response to these points and I, personally, wish to
     thank all three of you for deciding to seek the Z1C job, despite the
     obvious hazards.

     You're welcome!
     CONTINUED...

     By: Dallas Hinton
     To: All
     Re: Z1C questions 3 of 3
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi All -- following up a message from Dallas Hinton to you:

     From : Ruth Argust

     1 - Have you ever filed a policy complaint?

     Yes.
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 20                   4 Dec 2000


     2 - Without details as to the instance, what was the result of your
     filing a policy complaint?

     The sysop in question appealed the ruling to the then RC who upheld
     it. The sysop was suspended for a period of time.

     3 - Did the "punishment" benefit Fido or was it for personal
     satisfaction?

     I believe it benefitted FidoNet -- things were much quieter for a
     while after that event.

     4 - Did you ever rule on a policy complaint?

     Yes, I've received several over the years, both as NC and as RC (not
     the same complaints, of course!). In almost every case, I managed to
     bring resolution between the participants without having to formally
     "rule".

     5 - Was the policy complaint appealed?

     n/a

     6 - If appealed, was your ruling upheld?

     n/a

     7 - Without details as to the instance, what was the "punishment"
     deemed to be?

     None.


     8 - As Z1C, you may at some time need to rule on a policy complaint.
     Do you see excommunication as the only punishment suitable for a
     violation of policy or are there other alternatives available and if
     so, what are they?

     There are many alternatives, but I believe it important to aim for
     resolution of the dispute rather than punishment of an offense. If
     resolution just can't be achieved, then "punishment" might consist of
     a period of enforced down time, removal from a net (to Regional or
     Zone Independent status). I'd sure like to avoid that approach if at
     all possible.


     Cheers... Dallas


     From : David Hallford

     What is your stance on the inclusion of non POTS nodes in the
     nodelist?

     As addressed earlier, I'm all in favour of them, although I have some
     reservations regarding having them take on *C roles.
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 21                   4 Dec 2000


     What is your position on geographical exemptions and what, if any,
     administrative actions would you require before a non-geographical
     node number was issued to a node?

     Particularly given the ION situation, I see no particular reason to
     enforce geography any more -- that's one of the changes I'd like to
     see in P4. Certainly the *Cs affected should be given an opportunity
     to discuss such a move, but as long as there's no harm being caused to
     FidoNet I don't see any reason to try and block such moves. I would be
     somewhat unhappy about cross zone exemptions, although I'm not
     entirely sure why. :-) It would be a topic for discussion, for sure.

     What is your position on sysop level elections for all *C positions?

     Like you, I'm ambivalent. I believe the purpose of having the RCs vote
     is twofold:

     1) to provide each region an equal voice regardless of
     population/membership;

     2) because in reality, it's the RCs who have to work with the ZC and
     therefore they should have a large voice in picking a ZC.

     Do you support the internet oriented flags in the nodelist?

     For sure!

     That pretty much covers my concerns. Thank you for taking the time to
     read this message.


     Thanks for asking!

     Continued to next message...


     Cheers... Dallas

     No-one has asked me this question, but I'd like to answer it anyway!
     :-))

     If I am elected as ZC, my first priority will be to get the nodelist
     building process transferred and stable. Fortunately, I have holidays
     from December 22 to January 7th, so I'll have ample time to get that
     done and make sure it's stable and replying to incoming segments
     promptly.

     Following that, in no particular order, I would:

     1) Establish links with the ZCC (multiple links for redundancy, by
     preference);

     2) Establish links with the RCC (multiple links for redundancy, by
     preference);

     3) Establish links with the other zones to ensure smooth transfers of
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 22                   4 Dec 2000


     zone segments;

     4) In consultation with the RECs, select a ZEC;

     5) Get sysop committees formed to begin (or continue) the process of:
     a) revising Policy;
     b) determining an ION policy;
     c) determining a better way of
     selecting/electing *Cs (note, NOT *ECs --this is none of the ZC's
     business, imo);

     6) Select an assistant/backup ZC who would mirror all nodelist
     processing and be able to step in at short notice should such become
     necessary;

     That's all I can think of at the moment -- I'm sure there are other
     details I've overlooked, but I perceive those as being the most
     important!

     Cheers... Dallas


                                 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Dallas Hinton
     To: Michael Grant
     Re: Questions
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Michael -- on Nov 28 2000 at 00:49, you wrote:

     MG>  1. Will you work actively as Z1C to bring about changes to the
     Fidonet P-4.07  policy document? If these efforts produce a
     palatable document for the  majority of members of Zone 1, will you
     present it to the other Zone  coordinators as a possible new policy
     document for all of Fidonet? If the  other Zones seem opposed or
     indifferent to it, will you then work to have it adopted as Zone 1
     policy?

     Yes.

     MG>  2. Do you support the idea of making all coordinator positions in
     Zone 1  elected positions, with set terms of service and recall
     mechanisms? If so,  what terms of service and mechanisms/causes
     for recall would you propose?

     No. While having all *C positions is, on the face of it, a noble
     ideal, the reality is that we don't have enough volunteers now.
     *Requiring* elections might well scare off some otherwise-willing
     volunteers, as well as forcing an action which some regions (or nets)
     wouldn't want. I suggest that giving nets and regions freedom of
     choice is a better solution; those that want elections can certainly
     have them, while those who would rather ignore the whole issue can do
     that to.

     MG>  3. Will you respect the rights of the separate regions of self
     determination,  accepting their choices for RC if they decide to
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 23                   4 Dec 2000


     elect them, and ensuring  that each region has an equal say on all
     matters of importance?

     Absolutely -- as I already said in some earlier diatribe. :-)

     MG> Will you  accept the individual members of the RCC as
     representative of their  respective regions, and consult that body
     on matters of importance to the  entire zone?

     Yup -- that's what the RCC is for!

     MG> Would you attempt to remove any RC whom you discovered was
     going against the wishes of his or her region, if that region had
     no recall mechanism? What criteria would you consider a valid one
     for such a removal?

     If a region wants to replace an RC, they have only to do so and advise
     the ZC. That practise was established during Bob Satti's tenure and I
     certainly would continue it. The criteria are up to the region -- an
     RC represents his/her region and if the region no longer considers
     him/her to be doing the job they should choose a new one asap.

     MG>  4. Will you be open and communicative to any individual sysop of
     Zone 1 who  may pose questions to you in public (sysop-only) echos
     such as Z1C, FN_SYSOP,  SYSOP, ZCC_PUBLIC, or RCC-PUBLIC? Will you
     be prompt in answering concerns  sent via netmail or e-mail? Will
     you act in as timely a manner as possible  in any matters of
     importance that you are asked to consider, such as policy
     complaints or serious concerns about one who holds a *C position?

     Of course -- that's how I am as an RC, and I see no reason why I would
     behave any differently as ZC. That doesn't alter the fact that my
     reply may well be to redirect the questioner to someone who knows more
     about that issue than I do!

     MG>  Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer these
     questions.

     You're welcome.

     MG>  ... Be polite.  First listen to sermon, THEN eat missionary.

     Wait -- ZC -- I'm not so sure.....


     Cheers... Dallas

                            ~~~~~~~~BEGIN~~~~~~~~
                             ***JANIS' COLUMN***
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------


     By: Janis Kracht
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 24                   4 Dec 2000


     To: All
     Re: Questionnaire
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     >1) How long have you been a member of Fidonet?

     I believe since sometime in 1991.

     >2) What volunteer/appointed/elected positions have you held
     >during that time?

     NC, REC, International Coordinator of the FileGate.

     >3) What do you envision the Z1C position to entail?

     Timely distribution of the nodediffs, as well as work with RC's and
     others in Fidonet to create an atmosphere that makes current sysops
     want to stay in the network, and makes Fidonet an attractive place for
     new sysops and users on our systems.

     >4) Do you believe you have the time and wherewithall to do
     >justice to the duties you would be called upon to perform?

     Yes.

     >5) What is your vision of Fidonet's future and what can be
     >done to achieve it?

     In the past few years we've taken the attitude that the internet can
     be "used" in a sense to enhance our connectivity to our network as far
     as HUBing, picking up echomail and files, etc.  Now I believe we need
     to turn this around somewhat and actually start to make our bbs
     systems a place where internet users will feel comfortable and
     interested in our systems.

     As I mentioned in David's inquiry, I've already started a project to
     do this. This new project will use internet technology to attract
     Internet users to our bbs systems.  The project is at its very
     beginning of Phase one, with some minor details yet to be worked out.
     Phase one of this idea involves creating a database of all systems in
     Fidonet to allow a browser user to select a site in the database based
     on features provided by the site such as message boards (echos), games
     (doors), etc. Phase 2 of this project will involve tieing dialup nodes
     to the database to pull in connections to systems not available on the
     internet.

     I also feel it is important to have systems and people connected to
     Fidonet regardless of what software they use, or how they connect to
     Fidonet (ip nodes, etc.)

     >6) As objectively as possible, analyze yourself and indicate
     >the qualities you possess that would have a bearing on how well
     >you would be able to fulfill the Z1C job as you view it.

     I'm patient <smile>.  I am generally able to think of ways to have
     people work together, and enjoy doing so.

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 25                   4 Dec 2000


     I do not work full-time.  I have the time to give to the network.

     >7) Why did you accept the nomination?

     I accepted the nomination because I think I can do the job well.

     >8) Why do you think you would be a =better= person for the job
     >than the other two candidates?

     I have time to devote to it, I play well with others <g> and I look
     forward to helping our hobby to survive beyond 2001 with some new
     ideas.

     >I, the silent ones of my net, and no doubt many others shall
     >appreciate your response to these points and I, personally, wish
     >to thank all three of you for deciding to seek the Z1C job,
     >despite the obvious hazards.

     :)

     Take care,
     Janis
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Janis Kracht
     To: All
     Re: questions for the candidates...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     1) Are you willing to bind yourself to only invoking P4.07 to solve a
     problem rather than prevent someone from doing what they feel needs to
     be done? Examples would be using P4.07 to force a node into a local
     geographic net against their will when they want to be listed
     elsewhere and have an NC/RC willing to have the listing etc...

     Certainly.  As we try to find ways to deal with the survival of our
     network given the Internet's influence, I believe a number of
     situations should be examined with a different mindset.

     2) Are you willing to bind yourself to accepting the will of the
     members of a region in selecting their own RC (eg sysop voting in a
     region)?

     I don't think the word bind is a necessary thing here David.  I think
     it makes sense to do so.

     3) In Region 13 we have a local election policy that allows for a
     recall vote for RC, will you bind yourself to accept the results of
     such a recall should it ever be needed?

     Yes.

     4) What experience do you have working with people you disagree with?

     Plenty.  The fact that the Filebone and the FileGate can work together
     and have for a good number of years is indicative of this.  Within the
     FileGate itself, I've also worked with people who did not agree with
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 26                   4 Dec 2000


     me for one reason or another.  If someone had a problem with a
     particular file echo for instance, I generally am able to find a
     suitable work-around to take care of the problem.

     4a) Can you work with them without losing your temper?

     Yes.

     4b) Have you lost your temper working with people you found
     disagreeable, if so, what happened and what were the circumstances?

     No.

     5) What circumstances (other than a dead telenumber) in this day and
     age are sufficient to toast a node's number?

     Offhand I can't think of one.  I think as we move into more internet
     connectivity, IP nodes/nets,etc., situations may develop that we
     haven't thought of at this time. As these issues emerge, I believe
     they should be looked at on an individual basis with input from RC's,
     and NC's, etc. regarding how they should be dealt with.

     5a) Do you support leaving a 'toasted' node in the nodelist pending
     their appeals except in the very rare case of there being demonstrable
     harm to the network if the node is left in the nodelist pending the
     appeal?

     Yes.  And the same with *C positions as well (NC/NEC, RC/REC, etc.)

     6) Do you have any other duties in FIDO?

     Yes. Coordinator of the FileGate.  Network Coordinator of net 2320.
     Regional Echomail Coordinator of Region 11.

     6a) Will they conflict with your being the ZC?

     No, though I've mentioned to those in my net that should I win this
     election that if they'd like an election for NC2320, and  I'd be
     willing to continue pulling in the net's echomail/netmail if
     neccessary.

     6a1) if so, what do you plan to do about them?


     7) Do you feel that P4.07 needs to be fixed? 7a) If so, in what ways?
     7a1) What do you feel you can do to bring about change?

     Yes I do feel P4.07 needs to be fixed or rewritten altogether.  I
     think we need to re-think the strict geographic conditions of policy
     4.07, Zone Mail Hour, and "general sysop-level elections" (or lack of
     them rather) in Policy 4.07. While some feel Sysop-wide votes can be
     messy, I don't think they are impossible if organized.

     8) What do you feel should be done to market this hobby to potential
     new customers?

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 27                   4 Dec 2000


     While I don't look at bbs users as customers, nor do I look at nodes
     in Fidonet as customers, I'm hoping that the idea being worked on in
     number 10 below may help in this aspect.

     9) Do you support the inclusion of IP Only nodes?

     Yes.

     9a) Do you support IP Only nodes in coordinator positions?

     If the coordinator is easily accessable by those in this person's
     network, yes.

     9b) Do you support the creation of an IP Only region or at least an IP
     Only net?

     I think that a dialup network presense in an area can only help to
     bring nodes _back_ to Fidonet, so I'd like to see both IP regions/nets
     and geographic regions/nets be available in Fidonet.

     9c) Do you agree that any node in north america (at least) on the
     internet is local to every other internet node and as such could band
     themselves together into a net if they so desire?

     Yes.

     10) What techincal changes should be made in FIDO to make it more
     stable and open to potential new members?

     One idea I've already started working on with some non-Z1 nodes is a
     new project to use internet technology to attract Internet users to
     our bbs systems.  The project is at its very beginning of Phase one,
     with some minor details yet to be worked out.  Phase one of this idea
     involves creating a database of all systems in Fidonet to allow a
     browser user to select a site in the database based on features
     provided by the site such as message boards (echos), games (doors),
     etc. Phase 2 of this project will involve tieing a dialup node to the
     database to pull in connections to systems not available on the
     internet.

     Take care, Janis
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Janis Kracht
     To: Ruth Argust
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Ruth,

     >> 2) Are you willing to bind yourself to accepting the will of the
     members of a region in selecting their own RC (eg sysop voting in a
     region)?

     >> I don't think the word bind is a necessary thing here David.  I
     think it makes sense to do so.

     > Since you do not wish to use the word "bind", would you please
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 28                   4 Dec 2000


     provide an example when would it not make sense to do so?

     What I said was I didn't think it was necessary to "say it".  In other
     words, it goes without saying.  I don't have a problem with accepting
     the elected RC of a region.


     >> 4) What experience do you have working with people you disagree
     with?

     >> Plenty.  The fact that the Filebone and the FileGate can work
     together and have for a good number of years is indicative of this.
     Within the FileGate itself, I've also worked with people who did
     not agree with me for one reason or another.  If someone had a
     problem with a particular file echo for instance, I generally am
     able to find a suitable work-around to take care of the problem.

     > But in some cases, it was true that certain of the rules you
     established or > "coordinated" were quite inflexible irregardless of
     the circumstances.

     Like?

     I didn't want to remove the Xfiles echomail listing from filegate.zxx.
     That was a matter of the work in maintaining two documents.  I also
     didn't think it was that big a deal to the operation of the FileGate,
     but removing those listings probably would have alienated the
     coordinator who was already feeling a bit "outside" the flow of things
     because of some people's comments.

     > In view of this, how would you determine which parts, if any, of P4
     were inflexible?

     You'd have to give me a more specific question if you'd like a
     specific answer here Ruth :)  In general I can tell you that I don't
     feel there is a whole lot about policy 4 that I can't be flexible
     about.  I assume you've also read the other posts I've made regarding
     questions asked here of the candidates.

     >> 6) Do you have any other duties in FIDO?

     >> Yes. Coordinator of the FileGate.

     >A very long fought battle says that the FILEBONE and the FILEGATE are
     NOT part> of FidoNet.

     So?  It takes up some of my time.  Isn't that the real question that
     was asked? I thought it was :)  Also, insinuated by the question was
     the issue of experience in dealing with problems, people and such..
     all of which are part of coordinating the FileGate.

     >> Network Coordinator of net 2320. Regional Echomail Coordinator of
     Region 11.

     >> 6a) Will they conflict with your being the ZC?

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 29                   4 Dec 2000


     >> No, though I've mentioned to those in my net that should I win this
     election that if they'd like an election for NC2320, and  I'd be
     willing to continue pulling in the net's echomail/netmail if
     neccessary.

     >> 6a1) if so, what do you plan to do about them?

     > I am a bit unsure about your NC hat above. Would you please clarify
     since the> sentence seems incomplete.

     Personally, I don't feel that being the NC of net 2320 will conflict
     with my being ZC, however I'm leaving it up to my net whether they'd
     like me to drop out as their NC.  If they need me to continue to pull
     in the traffic for them I don't have a problem with that. I said this
     to them because some of the people who might want to run in the
     election might not want to pay for the internet service necessary to
     do so.

     >> 7) Do you feel that P4.07 needs to be fixed?
     >> 7a) If so, in what ways?
     >> 7a1) What do you feel you can do to bring about change?

     >> Yes I do feel P4.07 needs to be fixed or rewritten altogether.  I
     >> think we need to re-think the strict geographic conditions of
     >> policy 4.07, Zone Mail Hour, and "general sysop-level elections"
     >> (or lack of them rather) in Policy 4.07. While some feel Sysop-wide
     >> votes can be messy, I don't think they are impossible if organized.

     >It should be said that attempts to change P4 for many years have
     failed. But a>David asked, what do you feel you can do to bring about
     change and further, ho > would you work to accomplish this?

     I'd like to organize a task force of sysops and *C's to rewrite policy
     4.07 or amendents to it.

     Take care,
     Janis
                          ~~~~~~~~~BEGIN~~~~~~~~~~
                             ***ROSS' COLUMN***




     -----------------------------------------------------------------


     By: Ross Cassell
     To: David Calafrancesco
     Re: questions for the candidates...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello David!
     26 Nov 00 21:58, you wrote to all candidates:

     DC> I haven't seen any platforms from any of you as of yet so we need
     to ask some questions to get the measure of you as potential ZCs.

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 30                   4 Dec 2000


     It was beginning to become impossible for the platforms, given the
     other noise.

     DC> 1) Are you willing to bind yourself to only invoking P4.07 to
     solve a problem rather than prevent someone from doing what they feel
     needs to be done? Examples would be using P4.07 to force a node into a
     local geographic net against their will when they want to be listed
     elsewhere and have an NC/RC willing to have the listing etc...

     If the instance involves some sort of refugee status, then listing
     them where they want as opposed to losing them outright is
     preferrable.

     One however doesnt need a NET 1212 node number to pull mail from a NET
     1212 node.

     DC> 2) Are you willing to bind yourself to accepting the will of the
     members of a region in selecting their own RC (eg sysop voting in a
     region)?

     I come from such a region, so yes.

     DC> 3) In Region 13 we have a local election policy that allows for a
     recall vote for RC, will you bind yourself to accept the results of
     such a recall should it ever be needed?

     I come from such a region that has the recall bit outlined, so yes.

     DC> 4) What experience do you have working with people you disagree
     with? 4a) Can you work with them without losing your temper? 4b) Have
     you lost your temper working with people you found disagreeable, if
     so, what happened and what were the circumstances?

     I am well known to have a thin skin and a thick skin, but I also am
     not well known to be overly laid back. I'll tell you outright, I do
     not tolerate baseless accusations or theories, suppositions or
     innuendo if there are zero facts or incomplete facts to back it up.

     When it comes to working with people, it takes 2 to tango, there are
     individuals I disagree with on one facet of fidonet, but can get
     things done with them on other facets.

     I feel strongly about what I have done, am doing and can do for this
     network and I do hit back when this is impuned.

     DC> 5) What circumstances (other than a dead telenumber) in this day
     and age are sufficient to toast a node's number? 5a) Do you support
     leaving a 'toasted' node in the nodelist pending their appeals except
     in the very rare case of there being demonstrable harm to the network
     if the node is left in the nodelist pending the appeal?

     The NODELIST is FIDONETS phone book, I do not support leaving dead
     nodes in this list as window dressing, as removed node can be
     re-inserted as fast as it was removed, but pending appeal the node
     should be left in, perhaps with the HOLD flag?

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 31                   4 Dec 2000


     I do not look kindly at Policy Complaints, because you have one fellow
     hobbyists trying to deprive another hobbyist of the hobby.

     I have had only one PC cross my netmail folder since I was the R18C,
     fortunately I was able to talk both parties into compromising and
     apologizing that made the notion of the PC a moot point, the
     complainer got what he originally wanted and the other party stayed.

     Every *C, whom finds his or herself in the position of deciding a PC,
     needs to step back and ask the complaining party, "Are you sure", "Are
     you aware of..." and other points.

     DC> 6) Do you have any other duties in FIDO?

     Yes, I am a mail mover.

     DC> 6a) Will they conflict with your being the ZC?

     No, I have separated those duties from my RC hat.

     DC> 7) Do you feel that P4.07 needs to be fixed?

     Yes. (But see answer to 7a1)

     DC> 7a) If so, in what ways?

     More sysop inclusion in decision making, such as removing ambiguity in
     the selection of *C's. This does not mean to mandate elections, but to
     specifically allow them in those cases, areas where they are desired.
     Region XX might be ok with electing the RC, Region ?? might be
     comfortable with some other method?

     DC> 7a1) What do you feel you can do to bring about change?

     An outright policy revision is going to be a more monumental task,
     since we have 5 other zones to bring on board to do it. A Z1C is gonna
     have to find out via the ZCC how active/alive the other zones are and
     if there is some discontentment among these other zones with p4,
     enough in which to effect change.

     If said is determined have each region in each zone elect a
     representative to a committee to begin working on a revision?? (I am
     of course open to other ideas)

     Another thought to consider is this:

     A few regions in Z1 have written policies that supplement Pee4 without
     exceeding pee4 and cover such things as elections and the like. Why
     not create a Z1 policy document?

     DC> 8) What do you feel should be done to market this hobby to
     potential new customers?

     Word of mouth has always been the best tool, I once dropped off
     business cards describing my BBS at local computer stores, of course
     this only worked locally and we cannot expect to have sysops go print
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 32                   4 Dec 2000


     up business cards..

     Most sysops with Internet Access usually get some web space with their
     accounts, I suppose the sysops whom care could put some info on their
     pages describing Fidonet and promote it with moderated echoes as
     opposed to the free for all usegroups on the Internet.

     DC> Do you support the inclusion of IP Only nodes?

     Absolutely.

     DC> 9a) Do you support IP Only nodes in coordinator positions?

     If an NC, only if they can maintain FTN contact with a IP capable *C
     above them.

     POTS may be, a rarer thing, but it isnt passe.

     DC> 9b) Do you support the creation of an IP Only region or at least
     an IP

     NETS.

     DC> Only net? 9c) Do you agree that any node in north america (at
     least) on the internet is local to every other internet node and as
     such could band themselves together into a net if they so desire?

     Most regions have ION nets already..

     NET 211 in R10 NET 3830 in R19

     et al

     RIN section in R18

     I believe its up to each region how to deal with ION's.

     DC> 10) What technical changes should be made in FIDO to make it more
     stable and open to potential new members?

     The further promotion of ION ability and the absolute erasure of the
     concept that one must run a BBS to be in Fidonet.

     In the time I have been the R18C, too many times have I heard this:

     "Ummm Ross, I have been in Fido for xx years, over the past x years,
     my BBS has suffered xx usage drops and I cannot keep or justify having
     the BBS anymore, I must resign my node number"

     I have been successful in a number of these cases in retaining these
     sysops, once I educated them on the fact that a BBS is not a
     requirement, but many have been a victim of this MYTH.

     == Ross E-mail: rcassell@home.com ICQ = 5305939

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 33                   4 Dec 2000


     To: Ruth Argust
     Re: questions for the candidates...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello Ruth!

     27 Nov 00 15:41, you wrote to me:

     RC>> If the instance involves some sort of refugee status, then
     listing them where they want as opposed to losing them outright
     is preferable.

     RA> I would like to clarify this a bit if I may. David did not mention
     refugee status, he simply said if they "want" to be listed elsewhere.
     Are you saying that listing a node(s) elsewhere would only apply =if=
     it involves refugee status? Or would a node have to "threaten" as in
     "I'm leaving Fido if I can't switch"?

     In my answer I am assuming no one would want to switch unless under
     duress?

     RC>> I feel strongly about what I have done, am doing and can do for
     this network and I do hit back when this is impuned.

     RA> And what would that hitting back consist of if the following were
     involved:

     RA> 1 - A sysop?

     RA> 2 - An RC?

     RA> 3 - The IC?

     RA> Basically, what is your definition of hitting back?

     To defend my position if I can.

     There are times when you cant because the opponent is a brick wall,
     but there are times when you can and should.

     RC>> The NODELIST is FIDONETS phone book, I do not support leaving
     dead nodes in this list as window dressing, as removed node can be
     re-inserted as fast as it was removed, but pending appeal the node
     should be left in, perhaps with the HOLD flag?

     RA> Why change that node's status in any way at all while under
     appeal? Using a HOLD flag may prevent ERN from reaching that node.
     Most mailers will NOT dial a HOLD node for direct/crash netmail. Isn't
     that actually disenfranchising that node while under appeal?

     I believe Roy Witt has functioned quite well in this network with the
     HOLD flag.. :-)

     Note the perhaps..

     But also note that a removable offense better be serious.

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 34                   4 Dec 2000


     RC>> A few regions in Z1 have written policies that supplement Pee4
     without exceeding pee4 and cover such things as elections and the
     like. Why not create a Z1 policy document?

     RA> If region xx wants zone-level elections for the z1c position for
     example, while region xx wants the electoral college method of voting,
     how could agreement ever be reached as to any Z1 policy document?

     Time, patience & compromise.

     Compromising has to be a factor..

     It would have to be put to the zone in such a way as to show a benifit
     for all, at least to those not as used to electing the *C structures.

     I am sure Gerry has been able to convince you as to why he needs a new
     power drill, the same applies here.. We will have to try to convince,
     sell our side of the story.

     RC>> I believe its up to each region how to deal with ION's.

     RA> And what if an ION node located in R19 wished to be listed in
     R10's ION net?

     Well, the R10 ION net currently has an International flavor. :-)

     But to not dodge the spirit of the question, I would hope the node
     gave R19 the chance to list him or her within the methodology it had
     set aside for ION's?

     Being listed in the same net because 'your buddy' is, seems silly to
     me, you are ultimately in the same ASCII text file, just not within 5
     or 6 lines of your buddy..

     You and Dee for example are pretty good friends, she is in 250, you in
     2404. Both of you several lines apart, but never more than a netmail
     message away.

     RA> In situations, such as you describe, allowing a sysop to continue
     with a MO flag is preferable to losing that node but I would not say
     it is a preferable thing to do. In fact, looking at the nodelist, I
     see that many RCs indeed run only MO with no BBS. While, again, it is
     not required, it does tend to discourage growth of Fido.

     RA> Don't you think it would set a better example if the Z1C ran a
     BBS?

     The promotion of Fidonet in Spartanburg, SC???

     Actually I was the last local dial-up BBS to go down in my town, I do
     not know on Davids situation, as Rochester NY is a bigger metro area?

     I stuck it out for a long long time, I printed business cards and
     distributed them to local computer stores (also now defunct thanks to
     Best Buy). In the end, what callers I had left, all 5 of them, treated
     my Spitfire BBS like a dial-up nintendo and ignored the message base.
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 35                   4 Dec 2000


     I am still maintaining a Fido presence tho, this is still key.

     == Ross E-mail: rcassell@home.com ICQ = 5305939

                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Ross Cassell
     To: Dave Hamilton
     Re: Questions
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello Dave!

     29 Nov 00 21:28, you wrote to me:

     DH> How will you know "the sysops" don't want an RC?

     By receiving input or any complaints by the affected sysops.

     DH> Will you ask the RC? Will you ask the RC to poll the sysops that
     might not want him, to see if any have the nerve to tell him they want
     him removed? Then consider that a valid survey when he reports that
     they are happy with him?

     DH> Can you see any flaws at all in this process?

     After hearing one side of the story, I would ask the RC for their side
     of the story and consider things from there. But I would not charge
     the RC with asking his or her own constituents if they want to keep
     him or her. Also bear in mind we are talking about regions that dont
     have a recall mechanism in place.

     You could also come up with a number of scenarios, but each one is
     different and unique.

     Food for thought, I might be hesitant to do anything if I am only
     hearing from 5 or 6 sysops whom are being what we know to be a vocal
     minority. It might give me cause to poll the NC's to get a bigger
     perspective.

     I believe Ruth Argust can give you a more detailed recollection of the
     Bob Kohl thing than I could, so having said that my take on that is
     the then Z1C should have been more pro-active to have headed that herd
     of at the pass.

     I do not feel the current crop of RC's have the attributes that
     existed in the afore mentioned former R10C either.

     But know this, any *C cannot be everything to everybody, to think
     otherwise is foolish. So if ever presented with a scenario, one factor
     to consider is the personality conflicts involved.

     Christopher Baker was the then R18C, when my region adopted electing
     RC's and a R18POL. Christopher Baker had theses attributes:

     * Extremely competent on the technical levels and knew policy like the
     back of his hand. (these were different times then)
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 36                   4 Dec 2000


     * His communication skills were sorely lacking, he could often be
     condescending.

     The second attribute cost him the election.

     Obviously if the RC cannot work the NC's and sysops in his region
     because of an attitude on the RC's part, it might be more detrimental
     to let the *C stay, but that question is up to the affected sysops and
     not a sole decision to be only decided by a ZC.

     == Ross E-mail: rcassell@home.com ICQ = 5305939

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Ross Cassell
     To: Dave Hamilton
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello Dave!

     30 Nov 00 10:43, you wrote to Darrell Salter:

     Dave, I am going to give the peacock his reply here, since many of you
     astutely pointed out that this is a public echo, he can read it here,
     I see no reason to duplicate my responses.

     My oh my how we have this never ending desire to be placated, is this
     an eastern canadian attribute?

     RC>>> I already stated that I wouldnt dictate these things not to
     happen (if elected), I still reserve the right to have the opinion
     that it is not necessarily a requirement to be in the same net to be
     with like minded people.

     DS>> You wanking hypocrite! That is exactly what you did when I asked
     you to allow a sysop to become a member of a net in your region,
     remember? They were buddies and wanted to be in the same net,
     remember? You clearly went on a big power trip and adamantly refused
     that request on geographic grounds [...]

     Times change and opinions change.

     The parties involved also were involved in an Othernet<tm>.

     Nevertheless this was not the case of a stranded node, but already
     established nodes.

     Had I been asked 4 years ago about myself drinking beer, my opinion
     then as compared to now would be different... Then I did, now I dont..

     If Darrell wants to wind his panties in a wad so tightly by not
     recognizing *OR* allowing one to change or adopt different
     philosophies, let him..

     DH> Now you're going to be considered a fanatic because *you* are the
     one who coughed up the evidence. Let's see if he accuses you of
     putting a spin on it.
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 37                   4 Dec 2000


     No his recollection is fairly accurate, his crystal ball is flawed.

     DH> There is no pattern of his doing what he claims to support. If you
     can corner him into a straight answer, you can't predict that his
     future behaviour will match it.

     I have nodes geographically located in 18 but listed elsewhere and
     nodes located elsewhere listed in 18..

     Maybe you are hypothesising incorrectly?

     == Ross E-mail: rcassell@home.com ICQ = 5305939

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Ross Cassell
     To: Michael Grant
     Re: Questions
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello Michael!
     28 Nov 00 00:49, you wrote to Z1C Candidates:

     MG>  1. Will you work actively as Z1C to bring about changes to the
     Fidonet P-4.07 policy document? If these efforts produce a palatable
     document for the majority of members of Zone 1, will you present it to
     the other Zone coordinators as a possible new policy document for all
     of Fidonet?

     No.

     If we went this route, the other zones would see this as a ZONE 1
     authored document.

     Rather we get all zones to send representativces to a committee of
     sorts.

     MG> If the other Zones seem opposed or indifferent to it, will you
     then work to have it adopted as Zone 1 policy?

     As suggested by myself earlier, I would favor the creation of a Z1
     policy document.

     MG>  2. Do you support the idea of making all coordinator positions in
     Zone 1 elected positions, with set terms of service and recall
     mechanisms? If so, what terms of service and mechanisms/causes for
     recall would you propose?

     No.

     I support letting each net and region decide on the mechanism's in
     which their *C is selected.

     I favor elections for the ZC position, the thing to do now is to come
     up with a universally accepted guideline to use, via any potential
     zonal policy document?

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 38                   4 Dec 2000


     MG>  3. Will you respect the rights of the seperate regions of self
     determination, accepting their choices for RC if they decide to elect
     them, and ensuring that each region has an equal say on all matters of
     importance? Will you accept the individual members of the RCC as
     representative of their respective regions, and consult that body on
     matters of importance to the entire zone?

     Yes

     MG> Would you attempt to remove any RC whom you discovered was going
     against the wishes of his or her region, if that region had no recall
     mechanism? What criteria would you consider a valid one for such a
     removal?

     Not unilaterally.

     I would consult with the members of that region to find out whats
     going on, what they want et al?

     MG>  4. Will you be open and communicative to any individual sysop of
     Zone 1 who may pose questions to you in public (sysop-only) echos such
     as Z1C, FN_SYSOP, SYSOP, ZCC_PUBLIC, or RCC-PUBLIC? Will you be prompt
     in answering concerns sent via netmail or e-mail? Will you act in as
     timely a manner as possible in any matters of importance that you are
     asked to consider, such as policy complaints or serious concerns about
     one who holds a *C position?

     Yes.

     But as real-life permits.. :)

     == Ross E-mail: rcassell@home.com ICQ = 5305939

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~BEGIN~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                               ***RUTH'S COLUMN***


     -----------------------------------------------------------------


     From: "Ruth Argust" <ruth@petpride.org>
     To: <wdbonner@pacbell.net>
     Subject: replace other article of mine
     Date: Friday, December 01, 2000 10:11 PM

                     Comments on the Z1C Election

     Ruth Argust
     1:2404/201

     We have at hand an election for the position of Z1C. David Moufarrege
     rendered his intention to surrender the position on October 19, 2000.
     With that and other posts, David restated his wishes in regard to
     filing the position "... I made it quite clear that I favor a
     direct and general election, not the "electoral college" model with
     no statuatory accountability for the vote."
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 39                   4 Dec 2000


     Unfortunately, after his intent to surrender, the issue went to the
     RCC where somehow the RCs had gotten the impression that they were to
     fill the Z1C position with an Interim and hold elections at a later
     date. Time was wasted while some RCs ran to their regions asking for
     input in regard to this Interim. Other time was wasted as some RCs
     objected to David's having cast Zone 1's vote for Ward Dossche and
     wished it withdrawn. Finally they got to work and the first draft,
     called Version A, did indeed allow for zone 1 sysop-level voting in
     the election. As time passed, however, Jim Cannell later joined by
     Dallas Hinton strongly objected to this version insisting that it
     violated Policy. They ignored the similarity to RCs being elected
     in some other regions by sysop-level elections and the fact that
     the Z1C has simply "appointed" that RC to their position to satisfy
     Policy 4. If the RCs had agreed to accept the results of a direct
     sysop-level vote and simply cast their votes in this manner, there
     would be no conflict with P4.

     The Jim-Dallas steam roller effect had begun and one by one, whether
     in the interests of time, expediency or in preventing a war within
     the RCC itself, enough of the RCs agreed on what was called Version C
     to govern the election. Only the RCs will vote and how each RC
     decides to cast their vote depends entirely on what that RC wants to
     do. They do NOT have to consult at all with the sysops in their
     regions. Some regions will poll their sysops. Some RCs will simply
     cast their regional ballot however that RC chooses to do so.

     If you recall, in the last Z1C election, RCs were mandated to collect
     the votes from the NCs (who were to poll the sysops) and vote
     accordingly. While that is not the ideal, we are now regressing back
     to a time when sysops may not be counted at all.

     All Zone 1 sysops should feel angry and cheated. The RCs have reneged
     on the words of the Z1C and while many of us were protesting, we have
     been called trouble makers and the MOB among other terms. I
     personally asked Dallas no less than three times directly "Why are
     the RCs refusing to have a sysop-level vote?" and the question was
     never answered. In regard to a zone 1 position, there is no real
     reason why each region individually should cast one vote. Arguments
     as to population are simply not valid and may harshly skew the
     results. As has been seen in the discussions, sysops from all over
     the zone have many of the very same concerns as evidenced by the
     questions posed to the candidates.

     Zone 1 is presented with three candidates for the Z1C position
     (alphabetically listed):

     Ross Cassell
     Dallas Hinton
     Janis Kracht

     The regional vote collection process (if there is one in your region)
     is set to begin. Will your vote as a sysop even matter? Check with
     your RC to see what method is being used in your region if you have
     not yet been informed.

     Who should you vote for?
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 40                   4 Dec 2000


     This depends on what you are looking for as qualities in a Z1C. All
     the candidates have said they do have time for the duties of the
     position. All appear to be technically competent in order to compile
     a nodelist. Most of the candidates have, in one way or another,
     agreed to ignore geographic restrictions, Ross being a bit more
     strict than the other two. All candidates support ION nodes and
     FidoNet growth by use of ION nodes. All agree that Policy 4.07 is
     outdated and needs change, some suggesting that we first try to
     implement a Zone 1 Policy. Only one of them has ever filed a Policy
     Complaint, that being Dallas Hinton. That PC was based on echomail
     content and even though it was filed in 1995, Dallas contends that
     the situation is different now. Since there have been no changes in
     policy in the last five years, I don't see how that is so but no
     response has yet been made by Dallas at the time of this writing.
     Ross made the following comment in regard to Policy Complaints,
     "... I do not look kindly at Policy Complaints, because you have one
     fellow hobbyists <sic> trying to deprive another hobbyist of the
     hobby." Janis is the "dark horse" in this election since she is not
     a current RC. Other than her discussing plans to bring new nodes into
     Fido, Janis has been rather brief on many responses she has given.
     Whether she has been reading administrative echoes in the past is not
     known but she has not been an active participant. She does show
     naivete in many of her responses that leads one to believe she is not
     well versed in some important parts of Fido history which do impact
     how FidoNet runs at this time.

     The qualities beyond this that I would want in a Z1C, you may not
     care about even though you should. I would look for a person who
     stood for sysop rights, who would be willing to work to be certain
     that the next election for Z1C would indeed be a zone-wide sysop-level
     election. I would look for a person who would care about working
     first with the sysops and next with the RCs and not the other way
     around. I would look for a person who does not believe in any "upper
     levels" or "lower levels". I would look for a person who wants to
     serve the sysops of the Zone as the sysops wish the Z1C to serve
     them. I would look for a person who believes we are all equal sysops
     with none more equal than any other. I would look for a person who
     does not feel that being the Z1C places them on any pedestal, who
     does not treat the sysops like unintelligent children but realizes
     that Fido's true strength and power comes from the sysops and them
     alone. And I would look for a person who truly believes that
     Fido = SYSOPS.

     After careful consideration of all of the above, I would cast my vote
     for Mickey Mouse.

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     (14039) Tue 28 Nov 00  2:01a
     By: Ruth Argust
     To: Dallas Hinton Re: Z1C
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi Dallas.

     Dallas Hinton wrote in a message to All:

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 41                   4 Dec 2000


     Please bear with me, I have changed the initials to reflect the
     section that I originally posted so as not to be confusing to others.

     DH> From : Ruth Argust

     <snip>

     RA>  2 - Without details as to the instance, what was the result of
     your  filing a policy complaint?

     DH> The sysop in question appealed the ruling to the then RC who
     upheld it. The sysop was suspended for a period of time.

     Forgive me but I do not see suspension in Policy 4.07. If the sysop
     was "suspended," that sysop was most likely dropped from the nodelist.
     Per Section 2.1.12, "a system which has been dropped from the network
     is said to be excommunicated (i.e. denied communication)."

     Therefore, it seems that your policy complaint resulted in a sysop
     being excommunicated for an undefined period of time, correct?

     <snip>

     RA>  3 - Did the "punishment" benefit Fido or was it for personal
     satisfaction?

     DH> I believe it benefitted FidoNet -- things were much quieter for a
     while after that event.

     RA> Only for a while? Does this mean that the excommunication did not
     resolve the problem? Why not?

     <snip>

     RA>  8 - As Z1C, you may at some time need to rule on a policy
     complaint.  Do you see excommunication as the only punishment
     suitable for a  violation of policy or are there other alternatives
     available and if  so, what are they?

     DH> There are many alternatives, but I believe it important to aim for
     resolution of the dispute rather than punishment of an offense.
     Certainly, that is a given.

     DH> If resolution just can't be achieved, then "punishment" might
     consist of a period of enforced down time,

     RA> I don't see enforced down time in Policy 4.07 either. Is this
     again excommunication disguised in other verbiage? If you note my
     original question was posed as to elicit some creative thinking in
     order to see what type of alternatives might be available other than
     excommunication. It appears, however, that you have listed that first.

     DH>  removal from a net (to Regional or Zone Independent status). I'd
     sure like to avoid that approach if at all possible.

                                     *ruth*
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 42                   4 Dec 2000


                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     (14919) Fri 1 Dec 00  8:20p
     By: Ruth Argust
     To: All
     Re: Dallas and FidoNews
     St:
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Other than removing the line feeds, this has not been edited by me in
     any manner whatsoever. There are many sites on the Internet to find
     old issues of FidoNews if you wish to confirm this article.

     -----------------------------------------------


     F I D O  N E W S --                   Vol.12  No.37    (11-Sep-1995)
     ------------------------------------------------

     Dallas Hinton Falsifies Evidence In Policy Complaint

     By Alan Boritz - 1:2605/102@fidonet.org

          A FidoNet RC falsify evidence against one of his fellow sysops?
     Strange, but apparently true.  It seems that Dallas Hinton, a former
     Canadian high school music teacher, currently the region 17
     coordinator, and a sysop of three systems in the same network as Bob
     Satti (net 153), was so eager to file a policy complaint against one
     sysop that he skipped the most basic step in any Policy4 complaint
     action (communication with the "problem" sysop).

          Mr. Hinton's "complaint" began with a netmail message.  This one,
     in fact.  Note the date and time when written:

     (85)    Thu 3 Aug 95 20:47                                   Cost: 0
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     By: Dallas Hinton, BandMaster (1:153/715)
     To: Brent Hamm
     Re: Policy Complaint
     St: Pvt Crash Kill
      - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - - -
     @MSGID: 1:153/715.0 0219075d
     @CHRS: IBMPC 2
     Original message addressed to: Brent Hamm (1:2805/1).
     Carbon copies sent to: Will Wright (1:2805/0), Tim Pearson (1:14/0),
     Bob Satti (1:1/0).

     Brent!

     In a recent message in the WARNINGS echo, you signed yourself as:

     _ _ _ O / _ _ C_U_T_ H_E_R_E_ _ _ _
           O \
       The Terminator, 1:289/22
       FidoNet International Coordinator

       --- FMail/386 1.0g
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 43                   4 Dec 2000


       * Origin: The EchoMail Liberation Army (1:2805/1)
       [...]
       PATH: 2805/1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 153/920 716

     _ _ _ O / _ _ C_U_T_ H_E_R_E_ _ _ _
           O \

     If you post another message with a fake signature, you will be the
     subject of a policy complaint.  Impersonation of a *C is not
     acceptable behaviour in FidoNet.

     Dallas Hinton
     RC 17

        @Via 1:153/715 @19950804.054749 TNT 0.99B0204+


     24 hours later, Dallas Hinton posted a public message in the MODERATOR
     conference announcing that he had ALREADY filed a PC against Mr. Hamm:

     Date:   Fri Aug 04 1995 20:55:54
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     From:   Dallas Hinton
     To:     Charles Ring
     Subj:   Hijacking Threat
     MODERATOR                      -------------------------------

     Hi Charles -- recently you wrote in a message to All:

     CR> "The Terminator" has already started disrupting the WARNINGS
     CR> echo and has convinced some users that he's its moderator.
     CR> It's not the first time that this vandal/bully has caused
     CR> havoc. Why is everyone afraid of him?

     I would suggest that a flood of netmail to his Net Coordinator would
     impress the NC to hint gently at him regarding the likelihood of his
     node number lasting.

     FYI, I have filed a policy complaint (section 1.3.5, paragraph 2,
     sentence 5) with his NC (Will Wright) over Mr. Hamm signing himself as
     "FidoNet International Coordinator".  I promptly received netmail from
     a mental midget in a different net signing himself "Satanus Maximus"
     and claiming to be "Regional Coordinator of Region 17".  Since I
     haven't been told by the ZC that I've been replaced, I'll be filing a
     PC against him, too. <sigh>.

     That's more PCs in a week than I've filed my previous 8 years in
     FidoNet.

     Cheers ... Dallas
     Moderator, SURVIVOR and RGN17 echoes
     RC 17

         -!- timEd 1.10.g1+
         ! Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver BC, CANADA [604-266-7754]
         (1:153/715)
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 44                   4 Dec 2000


     --

     Let's recap the dates of those messages:

     Thursday, 8/3/95 @ 20:47 - Hinton SENDS his 9.1 message.
     Friday,   8/4/95 @ 20:55 - Hinton claims he's ALREADY filed a PC with
                                N2805C.

     RA> Mr. Hinton, supposedly an experienced RC and competent sysop, had
     reason to know that a netmail response may not be immediately
     forthcoming, since he had no way of knowing when Mr. Hamm would first
     read his netmail message, and especially since Mr. Hinton has admitted
     to having "problems" with netmail. And as an experienced sysop,
     familiar with echomail topology and message propagation, Mr. Hinton
     knows full well that echomail messages can take several days to travel
     through wide-area routing between Mr. Hamm's and his locations.

     RA> Although Mr. Hinton now claims to have "communicated" with the
     subject of his PC, Mr. Hinton's own messages, presented to Will Wright
     (N2805C) and posted publicly, show that he had NO intention of waiting
     for Mr. Hamm's response to his 9.1 (required communication) message
     before filing his PC, since he acted LONG before he could have
     reasonably received either a response, or to see the results of his
     "request" in the echomail conferences Mr. Hinton was reading that
     resulted in this conflict.

     RA> A ridiculous PC based on a ridiculous "complaint," with no
     relation to Policy4.  Hinton's complaint has already been struck down
     at the NC and RC levels, though Hinton secretly filed his complaint
     with R14C (so that the sysop against whom the complaint was filed
     would not have the opportunity to respond to his appeal).  Will Hinton
     appeal secretly (again) to Z1C, and will Bob Satti (Z1C) mysteriously
     "recover" long enough to issue a decision on his friend's appeal? Will
     Hinton abuse more sysops though the Policy4 complaint/appeal process
     before Satti resumes his duties as Z1C?  Stay tuned here to find out.

     RA> Dallas Hinton has refused to comment on these issues, but you can
     reach him at 1:153/715@fidonet.org or dhinton@portal.ca.

                                   Ruth

      * Origin:  The Great White South                    (1:2404/201)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~END~~~~~~~~~~




     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 45                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                             GETTING TECHNICAL
     =================================================================

                         -=+TECH NOTES+=-

     Internet Only Nodes by David Hallford 1:211/103

     With the explosion of internet only nodes, I think we in Fidonet
     should revisit the idea.

     The count as of the last nodelist in November of internet capable
     nodes yields the following numbers:
     IP:
     25 ITX:
     109
     IUC:
     110 IBN:
     634 ITN:
     211 IVM:
     67 IFT:
     74 IFC:
     194 IUC:
     110 ISE:
     14 IEM:
     101

     Seperate lists of these nodes in 3d format are parsed from the
     nodelist weekly and distributed in the fileecho INODELST weekly from
     David Moufarrege's system <thank you David>, as well as lists which
     are importable/includable for BinkD and TransX.

     I have no clue how many of these are internet only nodes, but I know
     there are a fair amount out there just from reading the echos. The
     problem is, however, how do we reach these nodes? I see two
     possibilites - one is that we have an email contact flag (not IEM
     which is used for something else) the other is that we have a routing
     flag.

     Both ideas have an up and down side, but I would actually like to see
     both used. The routing flag can be parsed from the nodelist easily, as
     currently are the other internet flags and melded with your current
     route file. The e-mail address can also be parsed weekly and
     distributed as a simple text file for reference.

     Think about these things. It's really easier than you think to
     implement either idea (or both).

     The guy who does the INODELST parsing says he can easily modify his
     software to do this.

                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: David Hallford
     To: Ross Cassell
     Re: Questions
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 46                   4 Dec 2000


      RC> Hello David!

     Hi Ross!

       Thank you for your timely response. Greatly appreciated.

                                     with warm regards,
                                       Dave

     Electronic Postscript:


      RC> If elected, I intend to continue and try to
      RC> further the inroads Mouf made in this area.


       I think David did an excellent job in this area also. A lot of folks
     have overlooked that. Two years ago Mouf started distributing the
     weekly lists parsed from the nodelist of the I-suite of flags. I thank
     him for that.

     --- GEcho 1.20/Pro
      * Origin: The Psychotic Submarine (1:211/103)

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     By: Steven Leeman
     To: FidoNews Robot
     Re: FidoNews 17:48 [04/06] Technical
     St:
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello FidoNews,

      Sunday November 19 2000 14:15, FidoNews Robot wrote to All:

      FR>                              GETTING TECHNICAL
      FR>      ============================================================
      FR>                            by Steve Leeman
      FR>      By: Steven Leeman To: All Re: V92 en V44 another occurence
      FR>      of the coming of a new modem protocol!

     aargh...you could have asked an English translation...as was posted in
     ftsc_public a few days after mine inhere :-)

      FR>      FidoNet: Echo for Point from Holland) * From: Henri Derksen,

      Fidonet Technical Standards Committee Public (2:292/624) FTSC_PUBLIC
      From : Henri Derksen             2:280/1208      Thu 16 Nov 00 01:11
     Subj : V92 and V44
      * Forwarded from "125  HS_Modems International"
     Hallo Everybody,

     In the English magazine Acorn User issue 225 from Oktober 2000 sysop
     David Dadementioned the ratification by the ITU-T (CCITT) of the new
     modem standards V92 and V44. See also: http://www.acornuser.com

     For clearity here the old situation:
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 47                   4 Dec 2000


     HighSpeed DataComm with a V90 modem on even Analogue as on ISDN-lines
     or a combination of those two.

     ITU-T V90    64000/56000/33600 bps (inclusive the rest of V34)

     BBS-user / Point     BBS BossNode / InterNet Service Provider
     Originate modem      Answer Modem    Max possible speeds in bps:

     1   Analogue   Analogue        Rx  33.600 / Tx  33.600 = V34+ / V34+
     2   ISDN       Analogue        Rx  33.600 / Tx  56.000 = V34+ / V90c
     3   Analogue   ISDN            Rx  56.000 / Tx  33.600 = V90s / V34+
     4   ISDN       ISDN            Rx  56.000 / Tx  56.000 = V90  / V90
     5   ISDN       ISDN            Rx  64.000 / Tx  64.000 = V90  / V90



     New is the ITU-T V92 standard with 44.000 bps in stead of the 33.600
     bps on High Speed Split Bitrate connections.

     ITU-T V92    64000/56000/44000 bps (inclusive the rest of V90 and V34)

     BBS-user / Point     BBS BossNode / InterNet Service Provider
     Originate modem      Answer Modem    Max possible speeds in bps:

     1   Analogue    Analogue        Rx  44.000 / Tx  44.000 = V34+ / V34+
     2   ISDN        Analogue        Rx  44.000 / Tx  56.000 = V34+ / V92c
     3   Analogue    ISDN            Rx  56.000 / Tx  44.000 = V92s / V34+
     4   ISDN        ISDN            Rx  56.000 / Tx  56.000 = V92  / V92
     5   ISDN        ISDN            Rx  64.000 / Tx  64.000 = V92  / V92

     Note: an old famous Low Speed Split Bitrate connection was 1200rx/75tx
     ;-). Thats why an InterSpeedBuffer was often used! Sure on PC's witch
     had a serial port that could not accept split rates.

     Also new is V44 that follows the V42bis OnLine DataCompression. V44
     uses the LZJH algorithm and has a max OnLine Compression rate of 1:6
     against 1:4 with V42bis, 25% better thus !

     May be the V92 and V44 are the latest technical mutations for analogue
     modems? After that the ISDN-, ADSL- en CAI-Coaxkabel-modems are more
     used.

     Who knows more about V92 and V44?
     Until now I have heard very little about it.
     I wanted to upgrade my ZyXEL Elite 2864 modem (V34) with flashrom to
     V90. But I think I can better wait until the V92 flash-rom-image is
     ready ? ;-).

     I am very interested in your answers.

     Greetings from  |_|     |\ | |enri |/erksen, SysOp UniCorn BBS

     NetMail:            77:8500/504.1 @ AcoNet
                          2:2801/208.1 @ FidoNet

     InterNet E-Mail to: Henri_Derksen@aconet.org
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 48                   4 Dec 2000


     UniCorn BBS:        +31-(0)26-4425506   Modem 8N1 t/m V34 28.800 bps
     TeleFAX:            +31-(0)26-4425506.

        o     Steven Leeman,
      )/\,[_) Sysop SkyNET Bbs
      `T7 ]=[ http://welcome.to/skynetbbs (Dutch/English)

     ... Fidonet, Where do you want to go today
     ---
      * Origin: SkyNet Bbs <32-(0)16-580862> (2:292/624)

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 49                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                               WE GET EMAIL
     =================================================================


     By: David Calafrancesco To: Janis Kracht Re: questions for the
     candidates...
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Janis Kracht wrote in a message to Ruth Argust:

     >> 6) Do you have any other duties in FIDO?

     >> Yes. Coordinator of the FileGate.

     >A very long fought battle says that the FILEBONE and the FILEGATE are
     >NOT part
     > of FidoNet.

      JK> So?  It takes up some of my time.  Isn't that the real question
      JK> that was asked? I thought it was :)  Also, insinuated by the
      JK> question was the issue of experience in dealing with problems,
      JK> people and such.. all of which are part of coordinating the
      JK> FileGate.

     Correct, as the person who wrote that question, I was looking for any
     and all jobs that related to FIDO and your experience coordinating
     files is relevant to that question and the others.

     Dave Calafrancesco, Team OS/2
     dave@drakkar.org

                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Janis Kracht
     To: David Hallford
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello there David,

     > First: I want to thank you for being willing to take on the duties
     as Z1C. I know that any position of service in Fidonet requires the
     use of your time and tends to make you a target for not so nice echo
     and net mail.

     One thing you learn early in Fidonet is how to roll with the
     punches <g>

     > My major concerns deal with the political climate within Fidonet
     these days.  Go figger. To be fair (not to sandbag you) I will tell
     you how I stand on the>issue before I ask you how you stand on it.
     This way there will be no hidden trick questions.


     > #1. I support 100% the inclusion of none POTS nodes in the nodelist.
     I am one being that I send and recieve all my mail by an email
     tunneling program. As a traveling man this allows me to remain in
     Fidonet.
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 50                   4 Dec 2000


     > What is your stance on the inclusion of non POTS nodes in the
     nodelist?

     No problem whatsoever.

     > #2. I also support a nodes right to go into any zone/region/net that
     can give them the best level of support or protect them from
     percieved persecution regardless of the geographical constraints of
     P4.

     Same here :)

     > What is your position on geographical exemptions and what, if any,
     dministrative actions would you require before a non-geographical
     node number was issued to a node?

     I don't see a reason for "admistrative actions" to qualify a node for
     what policy 4.07 now refers to as an exemption.

     Here's an example of what I mean, "One Internet FidoNet Node's Story"
     if you will <smile>:

     A fellow from the Internet contacted me via e-mail asking how he could
     join Fidonet.  I worked with him to get his IP mailer running
     correctly, and then later I worked with him to get his echomail and
     files tossing correctly.  Once things were going well, I put him in my
     net, and then contacted the NC of the net he would have been in had he
     been a land-line node.  I asked the NC to let me know when he would be
     able to put this fellow in his own net but that this fellow could
     continue to pick up any traffic from me.  That NC was out of town for
     over a month for personal reasons and though we've been in contact
     with each other, he still has yet to move this node over to his net.
     Is this hurting anyone?  I don't think so. Oh, I did contact my RC
     over this as well... in case anyone decided that seeing this node in
     my net was offensive <g>, but I don't feel in general that one needs
     an administrative decision or action to accept a new node into our
     network.

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Jerry Schwartz
     To: David Calafrancesco
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hello, David...

     Nov 26, 2000 at 10:06, David Calafrancesco wrote to Jerry Schwartz:

      DC> A question for you... will R16 be voting on the ZC candidates and
      DC> will you bind yourself to voting their will at the RCC level?

     As I already said, I am conducting a plebiscite in which every R16
     sysop is entitled to one vote. I, as RC, will vote for the candidate
     who got the most votes. In the event that the candidate who got the
     most votes is eliminated and a runoff is required, I will vote for the
     remaining candidate who got the most votes in the plebiscite. In the
     event of a tie in the plebiscite, I will choose among the tied
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 51                   4 Dec 2000


     candidates. (I couldn't see any other way to proceed.)

     As to whether or not they will vote, I hope so; but I wouldn't be
     surprised if I only see a handful of ballots.

     Regards,
     Jerry
     mailto:jerryschwartz@comfortable.com
     http://www.writebynight.com

                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Lesley-Dee Dylan
     To: David Calafrancesco
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      DC> No... it was constructed to allow a region like yours
      DC> to let their RC get away with not representing them
      DC> again. Please don't expect the rest of the zone to make
      DC> your RC stand up and play nice with you. If you want an
      DC> RC to represent you, then bind them with a policy that
      DC> binds them to your collective will. We in R13 have such
      DC> a policy and an RC that bound herself to that policy.

     Darrell is representing our region just fine, thank you.  Don't
     complain if you don't like the way he is doing it.  Region 12 likes it
     just fine.

      BS> I would suggest that you put your efforts towards
      BS> organizing region 12,

     With the current situation, an election for RC underway in Region 12,
     we have to have the agreement of the sitting RC, the RC-election-RO,
     and both the candidates running for the office before an RO for the
     Z1C election can be appointed.  We have three in agreement at the
     moment, for the RO-candidate I nominated, and we are awaiting the last
     one to agree.  If s/he doesn't agree, then we start again and try to
     find another one.

     I've been asked to assume the position of RO myself, but I consider
     that it would be an inappropriate inpropriety for me to accept, since
     one of the candidates is my immediate uplink.  I take the subject of
     the impartiality and independence of an RO very seriously.

      DC> Sorry... compromises sometimes have to be made... make
      DC> the best of it. Tell Darrell to represent your region
      DC> with a sysop election in the region, period.

     Darrell has been representing our region very well.  Our region
     believes, overwhelmingly, that the RCC should not be redefining sysop
     level to mean electoral college.  David Mouffarege had said "direct;"
     how does that cover electoral college?  That is not direct.  Darrell
     has been doing an excellent job of telling the RCC and the zone that
     this is the opinion of our region. Darrell has also shown us that the
     RCC carries on in their super-secret elflord conference to the
     detriment of the freedom of the sysops.  He has told us that he feels
     that the appropriate response to this is to withdraw from the elflord
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 52                   4 Dec 2000


     conference, to the public echos, unless specifically asked by a member
     of the region to speak on his/her behalf in the secret echo.  The
     region agreed with his evaluation, and told him to go ahead.  Darrell
     wants to be held accountable - to his region.  He wants us to see what
     is happening.  He wants it done in public, where we can watch over him
     and make sure he is doing what we want on our behalf.

     Darrell is representing Region 12 extremely well.

                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Michael Grant
     To: Z1C Candidates
     Re: Questions
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Hello Ross, Dallas, and Janis.

      Thank you for accepting your nominations for the Z1C position, and
     best of luck in the election.

      A few questions for you:

      1. Will you work actively as Z1C to bring about changes to the
     Fidonet P-4.07 policy document? If these efforts produce a palatable
     document for the majority of members of Zone 1, will you present it to
     the other Zone coordinators as a possible new policy document for all
     of Fidonet? If the other Zones seem opposed or indifferent to it, will
     you then work to have it adopted as Zone 1 policy?

      2. Do you support the idea of making all coordinator positions in
     Zone 1 elected positions, with set terms of service and recall
     mechanisms? If so, what terms of service and mechanisms/causes for
     recall would you propose?

      3. Will you respect the rights of the seperate regions of self
     determination, accepting their choices for RC if they decide to elect
     them, and ensuring that each region has an equal say on all matters of
     importance? Will you accept the individual members of the RCC as
     representative of their respective regions, and consult that body on
     matters of importance to the entire zone? Would you attempt to remove
     any RC whom you discovered was going against the wishes of his or her
     region, if that region had no recall mechanism? What criteria would
     you consider a valid one for such a removal?

      4. Will you be open and communicative to any individual sysop of Zone
     1 who may pose questions to you in public (sysop-only) echos such as
     Z1C, FN_SYSOP, SYSOP, ZCC_PUBLIC, or RCC-PUBLIC? Will you be prompt in
     answering concerns sent via netmail or e-mail? Will you act in as
     timely a manner as possible in any matters of importance that you are
     asked to consider, such as policy complaints or serious concerns about
     one who holds a *C position?

      Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer these questions.

      Mike Grant.

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 53                   4 Dec 2000


                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~~~



     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 54                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                 NET HUMOR
     =================================================================


     Definition:  Impotence... Nature's way of saying,
     "No hard feelings".
     ---------------------------------------------------------

     Q: What's the difference between medium and rare?

     A: Six inches is medium, Ten inches is rare

     ---------------------------------------------------------

     An elderly couple were celebrating their 50th wedding
     anniversary, so they decided to return to the little town
     where they first met. They sat in a small coffee shop in the
     town and were telling the waitress about their love for each
     other and how they met at this same spot. Sitting next to
     them was the local cop and he smiled as the old couple spoke.

     After the waitress left the table, the old man said to his
     wife," Remember the first time we made love, it was up in
     that field across the road, when I put you against the
     fence. Why don't we do it again for old times sake?" The
     wife giggled like crazy and said, "Sure, why not."

     So off they went out the door and across to the field. The
     cop smiled to himself, thinking how romantic this was and
     decided he better keep an eye on the couple so they didn't
     run into any harm.

     The old couple walked to the field and as they approached
     the fence they began to undress. The old man picked up his
     wife when they were naked and leaned her against the fence.
     The cop was watching from the bushes and was surprised at
     what he saw. With the vitality of youth, the wife bounced up
     and down excitedly, while the husband thrashed around like a
     wild man, then they both fell to the ground in exhaustion.

     Eventually, they stood up, shook themselves, and got
     dressed. As they walked back towards the road, the cop
     stepped from his hiding spot and said, "That is the most
     wonderful love making I have ever seen. You must have been a
     wild couple when you were young."

     "Not really," said the old man, "when we were young, that
     fence wasn't electric."

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     How do you get an elephant into a Safeway grocery store?

     Answer: You take the "S" out of Safe and the "F" out of way...
     hmmmmm.....there is no "F" in way!
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 55                   4 Dec 2000


                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

         How did you do on your blind date last night, Sarah?

         "Terrible!" the room-mate answered. "He showed
                  up in his 1932 Rolls Royce."

        "Wow! That's a very expensive car. What's so bad
                       about that?"

        "He was the original owner."

                         ~~~~~~~~~~END~~~~~~~~~


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 56                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                           QUESTION OF THE WEEK
     =================================================================


     By: David Hallford
     To: Candidates
     Re: Questions
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hi!

       First: I want to thank you for being willing to take on the duties
     as Z1C. I know that any position of service in Fidonet requires the
     use of your time and tends to make you a target for not so nice echo
     and net mail. It speaks well of all of you that you are willing to do
     this in support of Fidonet.


       My major concerns deal with the political climate within Fidonet
     these days. Go figger. To be fair (not to sandbag you) I will tell you
     how I stand on the issue before I ask you how you stand on it. This
     way there will be no hidden or trick questions.


     #1. I support 100% the inclusion of none POTS nodes in the nodelist. I
     am one being that I send and recieve all my mail by an email tunneling
     program. As a traveling man this allows me to remain in Fidonet.

       What is your stance on the inclusion of non POTS nodes in the
     nodelist?


     #2. I also support a nodes right to go into any zone/region/net that
     can give them the best level of support or protect them from percieved
     persecution regardless of the geographical constraints of P4.


       What is your position on geographical exemptions and what, if any,
     administrative actions would you require before a non-geographical
     node number was issued to a node?


     #3. I am ambivalent on elections.


         What is your position on sysop level elections for all *C
     positions?


     #4. I support all the internet oriented flags in the nodelist
     (FTS-5001) and would like to see more as the technology advances.


       Do you support the internet oriented flags in the nodelist?


     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 57                   4 Dec 2000


     That pretty much covers my concerns. Thank you for taking the time to
     read this message.


                             with warm regards, Dave

     --- GEcho 1.20/Pro * Origin: The Psychotic Submarine (1:211/103)

                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Carol asks:
        Question:  How do you feel about this? Would you accept that one
     region may have different views and account for them in an issue like
     this?

     2.  My of the nodes here do not look like ION's because they do not
     qualify as running their own servers in their homes, but instead use
     those of others or have them located outside of their homes.

        Question:  Would you support more advanced FTSC 5001 (etc) flags to
     show such accurately?

     3.  As a combination of the above, some nets send their segments via
     other than the listed NC in R13.

        Question:  Would you object to this or uphold a possible P4
     complaint if such came to be sent with that as a portion of the
     decision?

                                            xxcarol

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

     By: Andrea Santos
     To: All Candidates
     Re: Questions
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     1) We almost "lost" a Region (14) in Zone 1 to a merger because of a
        missing RC, and this wasn't the first time it's happened.
        Acknowledging that weekly automated nodelist submissions may not
        tell you an RC is alive, what measures will you put in place to
        ensure this doesn't occur again?

     2) Zone 6 continues to be a mess with one inactive ZC after another.
        Do you feel this is only a matter for the IC or do you have any
        thoughts to bring to the table which could possibly effect
        change there?

     3) What issues would you like to pursue with our IC?

     4) In your tenure as a Coordinator, was there a decision you made
     which stood out as particularly difficult?  Rewarding?

     5) What is the greatest strength you bring to the position of Z1C?

     6) If elected, will you be a regular presence in the Z1C echo?

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 58                   4 Dec 2000


     7) Will you use Fidonews as a communicative channel?

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 59                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                                  NOTICES
     =================================================================


     By: Carol Shenkenberger
     To: All
     Re: Z1C Election
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                         ZONE 1 COORDINATOR ELECTION - 2000

     The Z1C has announced an election, for a new Z1C. Per Policy4, the ZC
     is elected by the RC's under them.  It is the choice of the RC's to do
     this by the following method per P4 section 6.2.

     A Z1 Sysop is defined as any Sysop who is nodelisted in Z1 and
     physically located within the normal geographical boundries of zone 1.

     The nodelist used will be the nodelist.322 version.  Reasonable
     exceptions will be made during the nomination phase by the election
     coordinator if a node, net or region is accidently dropped from this
     version and this is validated by the RC or NC of the affected node.
     The term 'nodelisted' means listed in this version of the nodelist.

                                 Nominations

                Nominating time table: NOV 17-25, 2000
                All dates start at 00:00 and end at 11:59 PM EST

     Any nodelisted Z1 Sysop of Fidonet may nominate themselves or another
     nodelisted Sysop of of Z1 Fidonet for the position of Z1C.  The
     nomination must be made in the Z1_Election echo and should be
     addressed to the Election Coordinator.

     The nomination must include the name of the nominee and their Fidonet
     node number.

     Once a nomination has been received by the election coordinator, the
     name will be added to the list of nominees.  The nomination must then
     be accepted by the nominee and seconded by a Z1 Sysop in the echo to
     become a fully eligible candidate.

                Discussion Period NOV 26- DEC 02, 2000
                All dates start at 00:00 and end at 11:59 PM EST

     Following the nomination period, a period shall be allowed for each
     candidate to campaign for the position.  During this period,
     questioning of the candidates is encouraged.

                Regional Feedback Period  DEC 03-16, 2000
                All dates start at 00:00 and end at 11:59 PM EST

     Following the campaign period, the above period shall be allowed for
     each region to conduct selection proceedings in accordance with
     regional policy and such methods as are determined as appropriate
     based on regional policy or the desires of the Sysops within that
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 60                   4 Dec 2000


     region.  All voting or other feedback including what is desired if
     there is a run-off election and the primary candidate your region
     selected is eliminated, must be concluded no later than 16 DEC.  No
     time is alloted to conduct secondary polls of regional input once RC
     voting commences.

                Regional Coordinator Voting - DEC 17-22, 2000
                All dates start at 00:00 and end at 11:59 PM EST

     Following collection of regional input, the RC's shall cast their
     vote. (Location TBD at this time).

     Initial voting will be from 17-18 DEC.  The candidate with the most
     votes, wins.  This will be calculated by a simple majority where if
     any one candidate receives 6 RC votes, they will be announced as the
     winner.  If no candidate achieves 6 RC votes, a run-off election will
     take place from 19-20 DEC between the top 2 candidates.

     Contesting of the vote will take place from 21-22 DEC.  Once finalized
     and with no RC's contesting the vote, the results will be posted in
     the Z1_ELECTION echo.

     Note, this section may be ammended after the initial Z1C election
     process has begun, in order to finalize the location of the RC votes.

                Term begin/end: Turnover date to May 2003

     Upon completion of the election, the newly elected Z1C's term begins
     as soon as turnover can be accomplished but no later than 5 January
     2001. Due to early turnover, the normal 2 year period will be extended
     5 months and end May 2003.  This is in order to avoid mandating a vote
     over the holiday season in 2 years.


         Z1C Election Coordinator - 2000

     Addendum to clarify:  RC votes are cast in accordance with regional
     policy which in some cases means the RC has delegated the vote to an
     RO/EM or whatever their region uses for the collection phase.  This is
     expressly left up to the regions to determine. For example:  R13C has
     delegated this to the R13EM.

                                    xxcarol

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~END~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 61                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                            FIDONET BY INTERNET
     =================================================================

     ------------------------------------------------------
     *Fidonet-related sites

                       . -- -- -- -- --- -- -- -- -- .
                       |    FIDONET-RELATED SITES    |
                       ` -- -- -- -- --- -- -- -- -- '
                          Last update:  November 29, 2000

     FidoNet
     Homepage:     http://www.fidonet.org
     FidoNews:     http://www.fidonews.org   [HTML]
                   ftp://ftp.nwstar.com/fidonet/fidonews/
                   ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/fnews/
     Echolist:     http://www.baltimoremd.com/echolist/
     Echomail links: http://www.osirusoft.com/fidonet/fidoip.html
     SDS Files:    http://fidobbs.dk/download (Web Access to SDS)
     FTSC page:    http://www.ftsc.org/
     General:      http://www.writebynight.com/fidonet.html

     Zone 1:       http://www.z1.fidonet.org
       Region 10:  http://www.r10.org
                   http://www.psnw.com/~net205/region10.html
         Net 102   http://home.earthlink.net/~kayshapero/net102.htm
         Net 103:  http://www.webworldinc.com/club103/
         Net 203:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8687/net203index.html
       Region 11:  http://oeonline.com/~garyg/region11/
        Net 2410:  http://www.vector.11.com/net2410/
       Region 12:  http://sparkys.dyndns.org
       Region 13:  http://www.net264.org/r13.htm
         Net 264:  http://www.net264.org/
         Net 275:  http://www.homershut.net/~mahoover/net275/
       Region 14:  http://www.ouijabrd.com/region14
         Net 282:  http://www.rxn.com/~net282/
       Region 15:  <vacant>
       Region 16:  <vacant>
       Region 17:  http://www.region17.net
         Net 140:  http://www.nwstar.com/~net140
       Region 18:  http://techshop.pdn.net/fido/

       Region 19:  http://bise.tzo.com/r19
         Net 124:  http://www.dallasinet.com/net124
                   http://texoma.net/~flv
         Net 130:  http://www.startext.net/homes/net130
         Net 393:  http://www.chatter.com/~wb/

     Zone 2:       http://www.z2.fidonet.org
                   ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/zone2 (Z2 nodelists etc.)
       Region 20:  http://www.fidonet.pp.se (in Swedish)
       Region 23:  http://www.fido.dk (in Danish)

       Region 24:  http://www.swb.de/personal/flop/gatebau.html (German)
                   http://www.was-ist-fido.de/
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 62                   4 Dec 2000


         Fido-IP:  http://home.nrh.de/fido/ (English/German)
       Region 25:  http://www.literary.freeserve.co.uk/net2502/
       Region 26:  http://www.nemesis.ie
          REC 26:  http://www.nrgsys.com/orb
       Region 27:  http://telematique.org/ft/r27.htm
       Region 29:  http://www.rtfm.be/fidonet/  (French)
                   http://Welcome.to/skynetbbs/
       Region 30:  http://www.fidonet.ch  (German)
     ? Region 33:  http://www.fidoitalia.net  (Italian)
       Region 34:  http://www.pobox.com/cnb/r34.htm  (Spanish)
           REC34:  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/4552/
       Region 36:  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7207/
       Region 38:  http://public.st.carnet.hr/~blagi/bbs/adriam.html
       Region 41:  http://www.fidonet.gr (Greek/English)
       Region 42:  http://www.fido.cz
     !    Net422:  http://www.fido.sk (Slovak/English)
       Region 50:  http://www.fido7.com/  (Russian)
        Net 5010:  http://fido.tu-chel.ac.ru/  (Russian)
        Net 5015:  http://www.fido.nnov.ru/  (Russian)
        Net 5028:  HTTP://5028.nordnet.ru/
        Net 5030:  http://kenga.ru/fido/  (Russian & English)
        Net 5049:  http://www.n5049.z2.fidonet.org  (English/Russian)
        Net 5074:  http://www.z2.n5074.fidonet.net
     ??  Net 5085:  http://www.fidonet.uz/ (Russian)

     Zone 3:       http://www.z3.fidonet.org

     Zone 4:
       Region 80:  http://fidobrasil.8m.com  (Portuguese)
       Region 90:
         Net 904:  http://members.tripod.com/~net904 (Spanish)

     Zone 5:       http://www.eastcape.co.za/fidonet/

     Zone 6:       http://www.z6.fidonet.org
       Region 65:  http://www.cfido.com/fidonet/cfidochina.html
                   (Chinese)


                          Fidonet Via Internet Hubs

     See also: http://www.osirusoft.com/fidoip.html

     a @ preceding an individual's name implies a virtual email
     address. The email is translated as follows
     firstlast@osirusoft.com will automatically route to the
     appropriate individual's email.  Anyone in this list will
     also receive routed notice of this feature.  In my case, it
     would still be joejared@osirusoft.com, but you get the idea.

     Also, as information is provided to me, I will be adding a
     latency field to each node, which is defined as the maximum
     time between when the message is received, and when it is
     sent on to other nodes, or available to be sent onward,
     defined in minutes. A latency of ! implies that there is an
     immediate response, and an attempt to deliver immediately
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 63                   4 Dec 2000


     after processing, or a "MinuteMail System", as it were.

                v-email flag firstnamelastname@osirusoft.com
                | email address or
     Node#      | Operator          | Facilities (*) | Speed,| Basic Rate
                |                   |                |latency|
     -----------+-------------------+----------------+-------+------------
     Zone 1     |                   |                |       |
       10/3     | Brenda Donovan    | FTP,UUE,BinkP  | 384K,30| n/c
       10/345   @ Todd Cochrane     | FTP,BinkP,VMOT | T1,!  | n/c
       13/25    @ Jim Balcom        | FTP            | 56k   | $20mo.
       18/500   @ Ross Cassell      | FTP, BinkP     |128K+,!| n/c
      19/68     | Ben Ritchey       | UUE:BFDS       | 33.6k | n/c
      103/5     @ Mark Luetger      | BinkP          | 384k,!| n/c
      103/153   @ Michael Box       | BinkP          | aDSL,!| n/c
      103/301   @ Joe Jared         | BinkP,FTP,NFS  | 384k,!| n/c
      103/401   @ Warren Bonner     | BinkP          | aDSL,!| n/c
      105/8     | Russ Johnson      | FTP,BinkP,VMoT | 384k  | n/c
      105/72    @ Larry James       | FTP, BinkP     | aDSL  | $50/yr
      106/1     @ Steve Loupe       | BinkP, FTP     | 128k  | ???
      106/6018  | Lawrence Garvin   | FTP, VMoT      | aDSL,60| n/c
      107/453   @ Jeffrey Estevez| FTP,BinkP,VMoT,UUE| 56k,60| $10 mo.
      140/1     @ Bob Seaborn       | FTP,BinkP      | T3,30 | $5/$16
      167/133   | Stephen Monteith  | BinkP          | 128k+ | n/c
      211/417   @ Korombos          | BinkP,UUE,FTP  | T1    | n/c
      218/109   @ Matt Munson       | BinkP,UUE      | 33.6k | n/c
      246/160   @ Mason Vye         | FTP, UUE       | 56K   | n/c
      249/116   | Carl Austin Bennett | FTP, UUE    |ADSL,60 | n/c
      280/169   | Brian Greenstreet | FTP            | 33.6  | $2mo.
      342/3     @ Richard Dodsworth | BinkP,FTP      | 128K+ | n/c
      395/670   | Arthur Stark      | BinkD,FTP      | 128k  | n/c
      379/1     @ Dale Ross         | FTP, BinkP,UUE | 256K+,! n/c
      396/1     @ John Souvestre    | FTP,VMoT       | T1,10 | $5/mo
      396/45    | Marc Lewis        | UUE            | 33.6  | $26/yr
     2604/104   @ Jim Mclaughlin    | FTP,VMoT,UUE   | 33.6  | $1mo
     2613/404   @ David Moufarrege  | BinkP,FTP,VMoT | 128k+,!| n/c
     2624/306   | David Calafrancesco  | VMoT        | 33.6  | n/c
     3407/4     @ jyates@bsdi.ldl.net | UUE,FTP            | 28.8  | n/c
     3632/84    | Robert Todd    |FTP,VMoT,UUE,BinkP | 57.6k | n/c
     3651/9     @ Jerry Gause       | FTP,VMoT       | 33.6  | $3/$6
     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 2     |
       20/11    | Henrik Lindhe     | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
       31/1     | Gabriel Plutzar   | BinkP          | T1+   | n/c
      203/600   | Mikael Karlsson   | UUE            | 64k   | n/c
      221/360   @ Tommi Koivula     | BinkP,UUE      | ???   | n/c
      236/205   @ Michael Kaaber    | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      246/2098  | Volker Imre       | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      280/1601  @ Jeroen VanDeLeur  | FTP,UUE        | 64k   | n/c
      292/620   | Eddy Missoul      | VMoT, UUE,BinkP| 64k   |N/C
      292/624   | Steven Leeman     | UUE          | 64k     | N/C
      292/907   | Bart Verhaeghe    | BinkP,VMoT,UUE | 64K   | n/c
      292/2003  | Eric Vaneberck    | BinkP          | 768k  | n/c
      301/1     | Peter Witschi     | BinkP          | 768k  | n/c
      332/807   | Roberto Mascolo   | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      335/535   @ Mario Mure        | BinkP,VMot,UUE | 64k   | n/c
     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 64                   4 Dec 2000


      335/610   | Gino Lucrezi      | UUE            | 33.6  | n/c
      344/201   | Julio Garcia      | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      346/3     @ Carlos Navarro    | UUE            | ???   | n/c
      382/100   | Sinisa Burina     | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      406/555   | Ofir Michaeli &   | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      406/555   | Marius Kaizerman  | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      423/81    | Milos Bajer       | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
      464/4077  | Serguei Trouchelle| UUE            | 19.2  | n/c
      465/204   | Va Milushnikov    | BinkP          | 33.6k | n/c
      469/84    | Max Masyutin      | VMoT           | 256k  | n/c
      480/112   | Adam Sarapata| FTP, VMoT, UUE,BinkP| 128k  | n/c
     2411/413   @ Dennis Dittrich   | UUE,BinkP      | 64k   | n/c
     2446/301   @ Lothar Behet      | BinkP,VMoT,UUE,FTP | 64K   | n/c
     2474/275   | Christian Emig    | UUE            | 64k   | unkn
     5030/115   | Andrey Podkolzin  | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
     5100/8     | Egons Bush        | BinkP          | ???   | n/c
     5020/1159  | Gennady Kudryashoff | UUE          | 33.6  | n/c
     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 3
      633/260   @ Malcolm Miles     | FTP,BinkP      | 64K   | n/c
      640/954   | Rick Van Ruth     | FTP,VMot,UUE,BinkP| 56K| n/c
      774/605   @ Barry Blackford|BinkP,VMoT:10023,ifcico,FTP |33.6| n/c

     --------------------------------------------------------------
     Zone 4
      801/161   @ Renato Zambon     | UUE            | 33.6  |n/c
      905/100   | Fabian Gervan     | VMoT,UUE,BinkP | 128k  | n/c
      902/18    | Javier Tejedor    | UUE            | 33,6  | n/c

     --
     * FTP   = Internet File Transfer Protocol
     * VMoT  = Virtual Mailer over Telnet (various)
     * UUE   = uuencode<->email type transfers
     * BinkP = front end mailer for TCPIP networks
     * NFS   = Linux Networking
     ----------------------------------------------
     Fidonet oriented news servers

     news.osirusoft.com
     news.tardis.net

     Fidonet oriented chat rooms.

     room #fidonet  5PM (PDT 11AM GMT) Sundays
     irc.osirusoft.com  (Peers wanted)

     ----------------------------------------------

     Please send updates, corrections and suggestions to
     Joe Jared, 1:103/301, joejared@osirusoft.com.  All email addresses
     here for purpose of corresponding with fidonet members about
     obtaining a feed.  Improper use of the virtual email addresses, and
     most especially, email addressed to blockme@relays.osirusoft.com
     will be considered a request to be blocked by my open relay spam
     stopper at http://relays.osirusoft.com

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 65                   4 Dec 2000


     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 66                   4 Dec 2000


     =================================================================
                           FIDONEWS INFORMATION
     =================================================================

     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --  FIDONEWS STAFF - -- -- -- -- -- -- +
     |                                                             |
     | Editor:     Warren D. Bonner, 1:1/23, editor@fidonews.org   |
     | Webmaster:  Jim Barchuk, jb@fidonews.org                    |
     | Columnist:  Joe Jared, 1:103/0, joejared@osirusoft.com      |
     |             (Fido Via Internet Hubs column)                 |
     | Columnist:  Ol' WDB, 1:103/401, fidonews@netscape.net       |
     | Humor:      Chuckles & Grins, emailed to editor             |
     | Sites Bio:  Frank Vest, 1:124/6308.1                        |
     |             (The best site of the week)                     |
     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -  EDITORS EMERITI - -- -- -- -- -- -- +
     |                                                             |
     |       Tom Jennings, Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince      |
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     |       Christopher Baker, Zorch Frezberg, Henk Wolsink,      |
     |       Doug Meyers                                           |
     |                                                             |
     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

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     Fidonews is published weekly by and for the members of Fidonet.
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     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -  FIDONEWS AVAILABILITY - -- -- -- -- -- -- +
     |                                                                |
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     |         http://www.fidonews.org                                |
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     |                                                                |
     + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

     FIDONEWS 17-50               Page 67                   4 Dec 2000


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