      F I D O N E W S         Volume 16, Number 02         11 January 1999
     +----------------------------+---------------------------------------+
     |  The newsletter of the     |   ISSN 1198-4589 Published by:        |
     |    FidoNet community       |   "FidoNews"                          |
     |          _                 |        +27-41-515-913    [5:5/23]     |
     |         /  \               |                                       |
     |        /|oo \              |                                       |
     |       (_|  /_)             |                                       |
     |        _`@/_ \    _        |                                       |
     |       |     | \   \\       |   Editor:                             |
     |       | (*) |  \   ))      |        Henk Wolsink    5:7104/2       |
     |       |__U__| /  \//       |                                       |
     |        _//|| _\   /        |                                       |
     |       (_/(_|(____/         |                                       |
     |             (jm)           |   Newspapers should have no friends.  |
     |                            |                    -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
     +----------------------------+---------------------------------------+
     |             Submission address: FidoNews Editor 5:5/23             |
     +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
     |  MORE addresses:                                                   |
     |                                                                    |
     |    submissions=> editor@fidonews.org                               |
     |                  hwolsink@catpe.alt.za                             |
     +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
     |    For  information,   copyrights,   article   submissions,        |
     |    obtaining copies of FidoNews or the internet gateway FAQ        |
     |    please refer to the end of this file.                           |
     +--------------------------------------------------------------------+


                        Table of Contents
     1. EDITORIAL  ................................................  1
     2. GUEST EDITORIAL  ..........................................  3
        Who Decides - Douglas Myers  ..............................  3
     3. ARTICLES  .................................................  4
        ECHO TALK - David E. Waters on The Real Problem  ..........  4
     4. NOTICES  ..................................................  5
     5. FIDONET BY INTERNET  ......................................  6
     6. FIDONEWS INFORMATION  ..................................... 10
     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 1                   11 Jan 1999


     =================================================================
                                 EDITORIAL
     =================================================================

     Greetings,

     So much has been written about how much/many Nodes FidoNet is
     loosing every week, that I have pleasure showing you a few
     messages from previous posted Nodelist stats.

     I'm not going to present you with any meaningfull or otherwise
     bull here as the figures below, speak for themselves.  Please,
     regardless whether the figures are correct or not is not the point,
     what is the point, it presents some form of demise of FidoNet in
     a manner, which is frighting.  A hobby in which I and many of you,
     have spent many hours in, not to speak of the amount of money we
     invested in it.

     From a message: 23 April 1996.

     Nodelist Robot
           | Nl-4 | Nodelist-3  | Nodelist-2  | Nodelist-1  |  Current Nl |
     ------+------+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------+
     Zone-1| 14734| 14535   -199| 14572     37| 14457   -115| 14340   -117|
     Zone-2| 16478| 16567     89| 16576      9| 16629     53| 16599    -30|
     Zone-3|  1154|  1155      1|  1152     -3|  1146     -6|  1124    -22|
     Zone-4|   584|   584      0|   584      0|   584      0|   584      0|
     Zone-5|   120|   120      0|   120      0|   120      0|   117     -3|
     Zone-6|   880|  1226    346|  1229      3|  1228     -1|  1228      0|
     ------+------+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------+
     Total | 33950| 34187    237| 34233     46| 34164    -69| 33992   -172|
     ------+------+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------+
           | Nl-4 | Nodelist-3  | Nodelist-2  | Nodelist-1  |  Current Nl |
           +------+-------------+-------------+-------------+-------------+

     From a message: 3 January 1997.

     Nodelist Robot
     |Zone|Nl-341|Nodelist-348|Nodelist-355|Nodelist-362|Nodelist-003|%%|
     +----+------+------------+------------+------------+------------+--+
     |  1 | 10931|10737  -194 |10564  -173 |10452  -112 |10370   -82 |36|
     |  2 | 16185|16150   -35 |16127   -23 |16104   -23 |16056   -48 |55|
     |  3 |   882|  882     0 |  878    -4 |  876    -2 |  869    -7 | 3|
     |  4 |   578|  572    -6 |  413  -159 |  556   143 |  552    -4 | 2|
     |  5 |    94|   94     0 |   93    -1 |   93     0 |   93     0 | 0|
     |  6 |  1006| 1003    -3 | 1003     0 | 1075    72 | 1073    -2 | 4|
     +----+------+------------+------------+------------+------------+--+
          | 29676|29438  -238 |29078  -360 |29156    78 |29013  -143 |
          +------+------------+------------+------------+------------+

     From a message: 3 January 1998

     Nodelist Robot
      !Zone/Jul!Ndl-339!Nodel.-346!Nodel.-353!Nodel.-360!Nodel.-002!%%!
      +--------+-------+----------+----------+----------+----------+--+
      !  1/360 !  6338 ! 6338    0! 6225 -113! 6199  -26! 6199    0!27!
     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 2                   11 Jan 1999


      !  2/002 ! 14627 !14654   27!14605  -49!14523  -82!14538   15!63!
      !  3/360 !   591 !  591    0!  592    1!  580  -12!  580    0! 3!
      !  4/353 !   436 !  434   -2!  434    0!  435    1!  435    0! 2!
      !  5/353 !    92 !   92    0!   92    0!   91   -1!   91    0! 0!
      !  6/318 !  1091 ! 1091    0! 1091    0! 1091    0! 1091    0! 5!
      +--------+-------+----------+----------+----------+----------+--+
               ! 23175 !23200   25!23039 -161!22919 -120!22934   15!
               +-------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

     From a message: 10 January 1999

     Nodelist Stats

      +--------+-------+----------+----------+----------+----------+--+
      !Zone/Jul!Ndl-345!Nodel.-352!Nodel.-359!Nodel.-001!Nodel.-008!%%!
      +--------+-------+----------+----------+----------+----------+--+
      !  1/008 !  3714 ! 3675  -39! 3660  -15! 3613  -47! 3593  -20!20!
      !  2/008 ! 13073 !13127   54!13071  -56!13089   18!12994  -95!72!
      !  3/008 !   345 !  344   -1!  338   -6!  338    0!  311  -27! 2!
      !  4/008 !   267 !  267    0!  267    0!  267    0!  267    0! 1!
      !  5/008 !    60 !   60    0!   60    0!   60    0!   59   -1! 0!
      !  6/001 !   912 !  912    0!  912    0!  906   -6!  906    0! 5!
      +--------+-------+----------+----------+----------+----------+--+
               ! 18371 !18385   14!18308  -77!18273  -35!18130 -143!
               +-------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

     As can be seen, FidoNet is loosing Nodes at a rate of some 4000 per
     annum.  At this rate, we have some 4 years to go, before it's
     history.  A very sad state of affairs.

     Not so happy reading,

     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 3                   11 Jan 1999


     =================================================================
                              GUEST EDITORIAL
     =================================================================


     Who Decides - Douglas Myers

                                 Who Decides?
                             D. Myers, 1:270/720

     One of the consequences of being an internationally-known Fidonet
     Busybody is that I am occasionally confused with someone with
     actual influence.  Such was the case recently when Catalin Bradu of
     Romania, the RC of Region 53 sent me information he really wanted to
     get to Bob Satti.

     He was under the mistaken impression that I would have the email
     address of Fido's Top Cop.  All I have is a calling plan which lets
     me call in the US and Canada for a dime a minute, so crashing
     netmail is almost trivial.  If I'd been smart, I'd have just sent it
     along and let it go.

     It was stuff I didn't want to hear about.  He was excommunicating
     someone named Gabi Andrei for Excessively Annoying Behavior in
     proselytizing his particular brand of religion.  Though he
     apparently had the support of his region, his ZC, Ward Dossche
     ordered him to reverse his ruling.  A few days later, Ward removed
     him as RC, placing someone in charge who didn't support the EAB
     action.

     Now who wants to get involved in this?  Who wants to support someone
     proselytizing in netmail and echomail?  But then, who wants to
     support the nasty business of excommunication?  Especially in
     far-off Romania?

     Who should be making these decisions anyway?  Should Excessively
     Annoying Behavior be determined by the folks in the region where it
     occurs, or is it the province of the Zone Coordinator?

     For that matter, who decides when a popularly-elected Regional
     Coordinator should be removed.  Is it the province of his
     electorate, or is it up to the Zone Coordinator?

     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 4                   11 Jan 1999


     =================================================================
                                 ARTICLES
     =================================================================


     ECHO TALK - David E. Waters on the Real Problem

                 . -- -- -- -- -- ECHO TALK -- -- -- -- -- .
                 | Food for thought from Fido's echomail.  |
                 | Purloined without permission by D Myers |
                 ` -- -- -- -- -- --  -  -- -- -- -- -- -- '

     David E. Waters on The Real Problem:
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
     There is no depth in Fido. For instance, there is no school for
     future Sysops. When we all die, thats it it's over. Nobody is
     trained to take over any of the "Jobs" in Fido. How many know the
     politics of how to get mail from N.A. to Austraila? (Show of hands
     please.)

     Sysoping will very quickly become a lost art like "canning" (you
     know those jars our Grandmothers had full of stuff when we were
     kids). The unreleased version of Trade Wars is a prime example, it
     ties directly through a server and does not need a BBS to run.

     I know I am a "Johnny come lately" and most folks figure I do not
     whats going on and for the most part they are right. I am also a
     locksmith and there are no new people (Kids, teenagers & young
     adults) training behind us at least not enough to keep open all the
     shops that are out there now. Which means the fewer there are the
     resource gets more expensive (think about that the next you call 2-3
     locksmiths for an estimate, what if there was only 1?).

     I'm 52 and no I do not know how old anybody else is and it really
     does not matter, we ALL die sometime. All of us better figure out
     how to solve this part first or the who is doing what will not
     matter if there is no what to do, because the mail and files will
     have stopped because somebody died and nobody could take thier
     place.

     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 5                   11 Jan 1999


     =================================================================
                                  NOTICES
     =================================================================

                       Future History

       16 Feb 1999
          13th Anniversary of the introduction of EchoMail by Jeff Rush.

       12 May 1999
          12th Anniversary of Fido Operations in Zone 4;
          10th Anniversary of the creation of FidoNet Zone 4.

       24 Jul 1999
          XIII Pan American Games [through 8 Aug 99].

        9 Jun 1999
          Tenth Anniversary of the adoption of FidoNet Policy 4.07.

       10 Sep 1999
          10th anniversary of Zone 5 operations.

       26 Oct 1999
          Thirty years from release Abbey Road album by the Beatles.

       31 Dec 1999
          Hogmanay, Scotland. The New Year that can't be missed.

        1 Jan 2000
          The 20th Century, C.E., is still taking place thru 31 Dec.

        1 Jun 2000
          EXPO 2000 World Exposition in Hannover (Germany) opens.

       15 Sep 2000
          Sydney (Australia) Summer Olympiad opens.

       21 Sep 2000
          10 years of FidoNet in +7 (xUSSR)

        1 Jan 2001
          This is the actual start of the new millennium, C.E.

       -- If YOU have something which you would like to see in this
             Future History, please send a note to the FidoNews Editor.

     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 6                   11 Jan 1999


     =================================================================
                            FIDONET BY INTERNET
     =================================================================

     This is a list of all FidoNet-related sites reported to the
     FidoNews Editor as of this issue; see the notice at the end.

     FidoNet:

     Homepage    http://www.fidonet.org
     FidoNews    http://www.fidonews.org             [HTML]
                 http://209.77.228.66/fidonews.html  [ASCII]
     WWW sources http://travel.to/fidonet/
     FTSC page   http://www.goldware.dk/ftsc
     Echomail    [pending]
     General     http://owls.com/~jerrys/fidonet.html
                 http://www.nrgsys.com/orb/foti
     List servers:
                 http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/fidonet-discussion

     ============

     Zone 1:       http://www.z1.fidonet.org

       Region 10:  http://www.psnw.com/~net205/region10.html

       Region 11:  http://oeonline.com/~garyg/region11/

       Region 13:

         Net 264:  http://www.net264.org/r13.htm

       Region 17:  http://www.nwstar.com/~region17/

       Region 18:  http://techshop.pdn.net/fido/

       Region 19:  http://www.compconn.net/r19

     Zone 1 Elist  http://www.baltimoremd.com/elist/

     Not sure where the following should be placed:

                   http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fido.html

     ============

     Zone 2:       http://www.z2.fidonet.org

     ZEC2:
     Zone 2 Elist: http://www.fbone.ch/echolist/

       Region 20:  http://www.fidonet.pp.se (in Swedish)

       Region 23:  http://www.fido.dk (in Danish)

       Region 24:  http://www.swb.de/personal/flop/gatebau.html (German)
     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 7                   11 Jan 1999


         Fido-IP:  http://home.nrh.de/~lbehet/fido (English/German)

       Region 25:  http://www.bsnet.co.uk/net2502/net/

        Region 26: http://www.nemesis.ie
           REC 26: http://www.nrgsys.com/orb

       Region 27:  http://telematique.org/ft/r27.htm

       Region 29:  http://www.rtfm.be/fidonet/  (French)

       Region 30:  http://www.fidonet.ch  (German)

       Region 33:  http://www.fidoitalia.net (Italian)

       Region 34:  http://www.pobox.com/cnb/r34.htm  (Spanish)
           REC34:  http://pobox.com/~chr

       Region 36:  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7207/

       Region 38:  http://public.st.carnet.hr/~blagi/bbs/adriam.html

       Region 41:  http://www.fidonet.gr (Greek/English)

       Region 42:  http://www.fido.cz

       Region 48:  http://www.fidonet.org.pl

       Region 50:  http://www.fido7.com/  (Russian)
        Net 5010:  http://fido.tu-chel.ac.ru/  (Russian)
        Net 5015:  http://www.fido.nnov.ru/  (Russian)
        Net 5030:  http://kenga.ru/fido/  (Russian & English)
        Net 5073:  http://people.weekend.ru/soa/  (Russian)

     ============

     Zone 3:       http://www.z3.fidonet.org

     ============

     Zone 4:

       Region 90:  http://visitweb.com/fidonet
         Net 903:  http://www.playagrande.com/refugio
         Net 904:  http://members.tripod.com/~net904 (Spanish)

     ============

     Zone 5:       http://www.eastcape.co.za/fidonet/index.htm

     ============

     Zone 6:       http://www.z6.fidonet.org

       Region 65:  http://www.cfido.com/fidonet/cfidochina.html (Chinese)

     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 8                   11 Jan 1999


     ============

     Pages listed above are as submitted to the FidoNews Editor,
     and generally reflect Zone and Regional Web Page sites.  If
     no Regional site is submitted, the first Network page from
     that Region is used in its place.  Generally, Regional pages
     should list access points to all Networks within the Region.

     TCP/IP accessible node access information should be submitted
     to the FidoNews Editor for inclusion in their Region or Zone.

                      -----------oOo-------------

                       Fidonet Via Internet Hubs

     Node#      | Operator          | Facilities (*) | Speed | Basic Rate
     -----------+-------------------+----------------+-------+------------
     1:12/12    | Ken Wilson        | FTP            | T1    | $24mo.
     1:13/25    | Jim Balcom        | FTP            | 56k   | $20mo.
     1:106/1    | Matt Bedynek      | FTP,VMoT,UUE   | 64k   | $5/$15mo.
     1:106/6018 | Lawrence Garvin   | FTP,VMoT       | 64k   | $5/mo.
     1:107/451  | Andy Knifel       | FTP, VMoT, UUE | 33.6  | n/c
     1:124/7008 | Ben Hamilton      | FTP,VMoT,UUE   | 64k   | $10/$20mo.
     1:140/12   | Bob Seaborn       | FTP            | T1    | $5/$20
     1:270/101  | George Peace      | FTP            | T1    | $30mo.
     1:271/140  | Tom Barstow       | UUE            | T1    | n/c
     1:275/1    | Joshua Ecklund    | UUE            | 28.8  | $10/yr.
     1:280/169  | Brian Greenstreet | FTP            | 33.6  | $2mo.
     1:2401/305 | Peter Rocca       | FTP,UUE        | T1    | unkn
     1:2424/10  | Alec Grynspan     | FTP,UUE        | T1    | n/c
     1:2604/104 | Jim Mclaughlin    | FTP,VMoT,UUE   | 33.6  | $1mo.
     1:2624/306 | D. Calafrancesco  | VMoT           | 33.6  | $15yr.
     1:345/0    | Todd Cochrane     | FTP            | T1    | n/c
     1:346/250  | Aran Spence       | FTP,UUE        | T1    | $10mo.
     1:396/45   | Marc Lewis        | UUE            | 33.6  | $26/yr.
     1:3651/9   | Jerry Gause       | FTP,VMoT       | 33.6  | $3/$6
     1:396/1    | John Souvestre    | FTP,VMoT       | T1    | $15mo.
     2:33/505   | Mario Mure        | VMoT,UUE       | 64k   | n/c
     2:254/175  | Alex Kemp         | UUE            | 56k   | n/c
     2:284/800  | Jeroen VanDeLeur  | FTP,UUE        | 64k   | n/c
     2:335/610  | Gino Lucrezi      | UUE            | 33.6  | n/c
     2:469/84   | Max Masyutin      | VMoT           | 256k  | n/c
     2:2411/413 | Dennis Dittrich   | UUE            | 64k   | n/c
     2:2474/275 | Christian Emig    | UUE            | 64k   | unkn
     3:633/260  | Malcolm Miles     | FTP            | 33.6  | n/c
     4:905/100  | Fabian Gervan     | VMoT, UUE      | ???   | n/c
     5:7104/2   | Henk Wolsink      | FTP            | 28.8  | n/c
     --
     * FTP  = Internet File Transfer Protocol
     * VMoT = Virtual Mailer over Telnet (various)
     * UUE  = uuencode<->email type transfers
     [I'm only cataloging transfer methods, eg, ftp, email, telnet.
     Specific programs using these protocols are no longer being listed.
     Contact the system operators for details of which programs they have
     available.]

     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 9                   11 Jan 1999


     Compiled by C. Ingersoll, 1:2623/71, (609)814-1978, fbn@dandy.net
     Posted on the 1st of every month in FN_SYSOP, R13SYSOP and Fidonews.

     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 10                  11 Jan 1999


     =================================================================
                           FIDONEWS INFORMATION
     =================================================================


      ------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION -------

       Editor: Henk Wolsink

       Editors Emeritii: Tom Jennings, Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell,
                         Vince Perriello, Tim Pozar, Sylvia Maxwell,
                         Donald Tees, Christopher Baker, Zorch Frezberg

       "FidoNews Editor"
           FidoNet  5:5/23
           BBS  +27-41-515-913,  2400/9600/V.34/V.90

        more addresses:
           Henk Wolsink -- 5:7104/2,    hwolsink@catpe.alt.za

        (Postal Service mailing address)
           FidoNews Editor
           P.O. Box 12325
           Port Elizabeth,
           6006
           South Africa

         ------------------------------------------------------

     FidoNews is published weekly by and for the members of the FIDONET
     INTERNATIONAL AMATEUR ELECTRONIC MAIL system.  It is a compilation
     of individual articles contributed by their authors or their
     authorized agents.  The contribution of articles to this compilation
     does not diminish the rights of the authors.  OPINIONS EXPRESSED in
     these articles ARE THOSE OF THE AUTHORS and not necessarily those of
     FidoNews and/or the Editor.

     Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is
     Copyright 1998 Henk Wolsink.  All rights reserved.  Duplication
     and/or distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only.  For
     use in other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or
     the Editor.

                             =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

     OBTAINING COPIES: The most recent issue of FidoNews in electronic
     form may be obtained from the FidoNews Editor via manual download or
     file-request, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet.
     PRINTED COPIES may be obtained by sending SASE to the above postal
     address.  File-request FIDONEWS for the current Issue.  File-request
     FNEWS for the current month in one archive.  Or file-request specific
     back Issue filenames in distribution format [FNEWSFnn.ZIP] for a
     particular Issue.  Monthly Volumes are available as FNWSmmmy.ZIP
     where mmm = three letter month [JAN - DEC] and y = last digit of the
     current year [8], i.e., FNWSJAN8.ZIP for all the Issues from Jan 98.

     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 11                  11 Jan 1999


     Annual volumes are available as FNEWSn.ZIP where n = the Volume number
     1 - 15 for 1984 - 1998, respectively. Annual Volume archives range in
     size from 48K to 1.4M.


        INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via:

                        http://www.fidonews.org
                        http://www.fidonet.org/fidonews.htm
                        ftp://ftp.fidonet.org/pub/fidonet/fidonews/
                        ftp://ftp.irvbbs.com/fidonews/
                        ftp://ftp.nwstar.com/Fidonet/Fidonews

        And in non-English formats via:

                        http://www.hvc.ee/pats/fidonews (Estonian)
                        http://www.fidonet.pp.se/sfnews (Swedish)

                                   *=*=*

     You may obtain an email subscription to FidoNews by sending email to:

                        jbarchuk@worldnet.att.net

     with a Subject line of: subscribe fnews-edist

     and no message in the message body. To remove your name from the
     email distribution use a Subject line of: unsubscribe fnews-edist
     with no message to the same address above.

                                      *

     You may retrieve current and previous Issues of FidoNews via FTPMail
     by sending email to:

                        ftpmail@fidonews.org

     with a Subject line of: help

     and FTPMail will immediately send a reply containing details and
     instructions. When you actually make a file request, FTPMail will
     respond in three stages. You find a link for this process on
     www.fidonews.org.

                                    *=*=*

     You can read the current FidoNews Issue in HTML format at:

                        http://www.fidonews.org

     STAR SOURCE for ALL Past Issues via FTP and file-request -
     Available for FReq from 1:396/1 or by anonymous FTP from:

                        ftp://ftp.sstar.com/fidonet/fnews/

     Each yearly archive also contains a listing of the Table-of-Contents
     FIDONEWS 16-02               Page 12                  11 Jan 1999


     for that year's issues.  The total set is currently about 13 Megs.

                                  =*=*=*=

     The current week's FidoNews and the FidoNews public-key are now also
     available almost immediately after publication on the FidoNews Editor
     homepage on the World Wide Web at:

                        http://209.77.228.66/fidonews.html

     There are also links there to jim barchuk's HTML FidoNews source and
     to John Souvestre's FTP site for the archives.  There is also an
     email link for sending in an article as message text.  Drop on over.

                            =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

     SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in
     FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file
     ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews Editor, or file-requestable
     from 5:5/23 [5:7104/2] as file "ARTSPEC.DOC".  ALL Zone Coordinators
     should have copies of ARTSPEC.DOC. Please read it.

     "Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered
     trademarks of Tom Jennings, P.O. Box 410923, San Francisco, CA 94141,
     and are used with permission.

                  "Disagreement is actually necessary,
                   or we'd all have to get in fights
                   or something to amuse ourselves
                   and create the requisite chaos."
                                     -Tom Jennings

     -----------------------------------------------------------------

