Date: 17 Sep 2000 16:55:01 -0400 Message-ID: <20000917205501.11350.qmail@xuxa.iecc.com> From: owner-telecom-digest@telecom-digest.org (Telecom Digest) To: telecom-digest@telecom-digest.org Subject: Telecom Digest V2000 #56 Reply-To: editor@telecom-digest.org Sender: owner-telecom-digest@telecom-digest.org Errors-To: owner-telecom-digest@telecom-digest.org Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: dbbe52abccc47b199ff3f451e7fc42bc Status: RO X-Status: Telecom Digest Sunday, September 17 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 056 In this issue: Re: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner, but is privacy compromised? Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) Re: Telecom Digest V2000 #55 Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) Re: Sorry, but... Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) Re: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner, but is privacy compromised? Re: Office COCOT??? Re: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner, but is privacy compromised? Re: Sorry, but... Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) Re: Sorry, but... Re: Message format, enough already Re: GTE Bay Area ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Sep 2000 06:31:46 -0400 From: "Ron Bean" Subject: Re: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner, but is privacy compromised? blackhole@handheld.net writes: >Radio Shack stores are handing out free barcode scanners in the >shape of a cat to their customers. I got one in the mail, apparently because I subscribe to Wired magazine (which has been hyping it lately). There was no mention of Radio Shack, so I was surprised that one of the cables that came with it was clearly marked "Radio Shack". Why does it connect to the keyboard connector instead of a USB port? I thought some newer PC's had USB keyboards... Do they still have the old-fashioned keyboard port as well? >The idea is that when you want more information on a product in >the Radio Shack catalog, you scan a (rather odd, diagonal) >barcode and it will take you right to a web page featuring that >product. I assume the diagonal barcodes are just a visual gimmick to make them stand out on the page. But do you think Radio Shack's webpages are going to be any more informative than their catalog? (Of course, the catalog doesn't have a "buy now" button, which is probably the idea behind the whole program). And what's this nonsense of starting words with a colon? A colon is punctuation, dammit. It goes wherever the sentence needs it to go, not where some :marketroid wants it. It's cute the first couple of times you see it, but it makes the sentences harder to read. >The software seems quite large for what one would expect to be a >glorified barcode scanner driver, coming in at over 3 and a half >megs (that's the downloadable version; I did not try the CD). Probably graphics for the installer program, plus the usual bloat. It may also have several versions for different versions of Windows (is there Mac version, or do they assume Mac users don't shop at Radio Shack?) >I apologize for the long quotes, but did you notice that buried >in there was this startling revelation: "The :CueCat reader is >only on loan to you from Digital :Convergence and may be recalled >at any time." That's just a polite bit of fiction for the lawyers (most credit cards have similar language, but they never ask for them back, they just ask you to destroy the old one). I wonder how many people got them in the mail and just threw them away. They're trying to solve a major problem of "ecommerce", which is that websites are great for customers who already know what they want, but how do you get people to your website if they've never heard of your product? Especially if they've seen a lot of lame websites and have no reason to expect that yours is any more informative. Ironically, one solution involves ink on dead trees... Actually, I've always thought it would be cool if PC's came with barcode readers as standard equipment. I can think of all kinds of uses for them (the old Tandy Model 100 from the mid-1980s had a port where you could plug in a barcode reader, but I don't think anyone really used it for anything). - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 06:33:48 -0400 From: "Ron Bean" Subject: Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) John De Hoog writes: >In the distant past it may have been correct protocol to put in hard >carriage returns a la the typewriter; but this is the age of HTML and >format=flowed, where the person viewing (or listening to) a message can >adjust it to individual needs. You can do that with plain ASCII as well, if your editor (or viewer) recognizes it as a valid format-- the editors that produce those messages with the newlines at the end of each line have no problem reflowing paragraphs. Some can even re-flow text with several layers of ">>>" quoting at the beginning of each line, and retain the proper levels of attribution for all of the text. There are also advantages to reading usenet with a fixed-width font, where ASCII-drawings may be encountered (but you can still make the type any size you want). >If you consider the needs of the visually >impaired, for example, it makes more sense to send messages that can >easily be reformatted with large type, etc. That's the beauty of >electronic messages -- the recipient does not have to be bound to the >format used by the sender. Actually this is a good argument in favor of plain ASCII. If you send messages in HTML, the recipient is bound by the format: it looks lousy in a reader that's expecting the traditional plain ASCII format. Furthermore, HTML is often used with font and size tags to control the way the reader sees the message-- the exact opposite of what you're advocating (although you can ignore the tags). If a newsreader makes it difficult to post messages in the older formats, then it's part of the problem (Rule of thumb: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send out"). Having said that, I don't expect to change anyone's mind. There will always be competing mutually incompatible standards, and each will have its advocates. I prefer to focus on the content of the message, and deal with whatever format it's in (unless it's totally garbled). It's an annoyance, but not a major one (do people still understand the concept of a *minor* annoyance, ie, one that causes me extra work but doesn't cause any hard feelings?). - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 06:51:28 -0400 From: John De Hoog Subject: Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) "Ron Bean" wrote: > If you send messages in HTML, the recipient is bound by the > format: it looks lousy in a reader that's expecting the > traditional plain ASCII format. Furthermore, HTML is often used > with font and size tags to control the way the reader sees the > message-- the exact opposite of what you're advocating (although > you can ignore the tags). Please note that I was not advocating sending messages in HTML. I used HTML as an example of new, flexible formats. Another is format=flowed. The worst message format, perhaps, is putting in hard returns but using a long line length. - -- John De Hoog dehoog@dehoog.org http://dehoog.org - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 10:25:58 -0400 From: Fred Goldstein Subject: Re: Telecom Digest V2000 #55 In V2000 No. 055, blackhole wrote: >I hope the lines in this message are not too long, Eudora does > >not even give me a way to count characters in a line! and John De Hoog added, >In the distant past it may have been correct protocol to put in hard >carriage returns a la the typewriter; but this is the age of HTML and >format=flowed, where the person viewing (or listening to) a message can >adjust it to individual needs. If you consider the needs of the visually >impaired, for example, it makes more sense to send messages that can >easily be reformatted with large type, etc. That's the beauty of >electronic messages -- the recipient does not have to be bound to the >format used by the sender. Sorry, but you're both off point. First off, I'm using Eudora (3, not 4, but I'm sure the capability's stll there) and it wraps my lines correctly. Options -> Sending mail -> Word wrap, check "on". Second, this digest is an email digest gatewayed to Usenet, not a web site. Both email and Usenet are "plain text" media by specification. HTML is abusive. ANd in my case, it doesn't get through. My ISP's mail server strictly conforms to the relevant RFCs. Its POP symbiont (not "daemon"; that's a clue as to which OS it's on) "knows" that the spec calls for no more than 255 characters per record, so it cuts off any record longer than that. So I get only part of the paragraph. Eudora's read-mail function wraps it nicely, of course, into three and a half lines or so. Many usenet readers don't wrap, though, because it's not supposed to be necessary, and it breaks other expectations that some posters may have. And since usenet's on its, uh, trailing edge of popularity, not much new development's going on there. Now it's easy to say that the ISP should use a better server (true), but the server *is* conformant to the spec. Formatted and long-record mail should be confined to intranet use, in companies whose uniform software supports these non-standardized (read: MS does them however they please) features. - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 11:02:50 -0400 From: John David Galt Subject: Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) Ron Bean wrote: > If a newsreader makes it difficult to post messages in the older > formats, then it's part of the problem (Rule of thumb: "Be liberal > in what you accept, and conservative in what you send out"). A good rule. The Usenet RFCs recommend no more than 75 characters per line because many people still use trn or tin on dumb terminals. > I prefer to focus on the content of the message, and deal with > whatever format it's in (unless it's totally garbled). Extra-wide lines are one of several common problems that cause me to just skip the message, because reading it is too much trouble. HTML is another -- because it usually displays in tiny print. (HTML in Usenet messages is also considered evil because it can be used to load web-bugs and the like without the user's knowledge.) - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 11:07:22 -0400 From: Joseph Singer Subject: Re: Sorry, but... 15 Sep 2000 14:59:29 -0400 Joel B Levin wrote: >In <4.3.2.7.2.20000915134221.00dcf9c0@pop.novagate.com>, > blackhole@handheld.net wrote: > >}I am sorry that some of you could not read my previous message. >} >} >}Since this list is Robo-Moderated it apparently does not accept >} >}Usenet posts. > >If you are using a decent usenet server, posted messages to moderated groups >like this should be automatically forwarded to the robo-moderator for posting. > >Also, I find it hard to believe that there isn't somewhere in Eudora an option >to wrap lines on output. Under options/sending mail tick the box lableled Word Wrap. This problem sounds like mis-configuration. - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 12:31:44 -0400 From: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Subject: Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) In article <39C38B59.DB1003B3@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us>, John David Galt wrote: >(HTML in Usenet messages is also considered evil because it can be >used to load web-bugs and the like without the user's knowledge.) And furthermore, many news servers' spam filters (including the one I operate) automatically drop such articles. Most people (except the spammers) seem to have gotten the message. - -GAWollman - -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:07:31 -0400 From: "Ed Ellers" Subject: Re: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner, but is privacy compromised? Ron Bean wrote: "I got one in the mail, apparently because I subscribe to Wired magazine (which has been hyping it lately). There was no mention of Radio Shack, so I was surprised that one of the cables that came with it was clearly marked "Radio Shack"." Look on the bottom. It says "Custom Manufactured...by RadioShack..." RS knows how to get products manufactured, so Digital Convergence had them do the job. "Why does it connect to the keyboard connector instead of a USB port? I thought some newer PC's had USB keyboards...Do they still have the old-fashioned keyboard port as well?" I'm not sure about that, but a lot of AT-case PCs from small custom builders don't have USB ports even if they are present on the motherboard -- AT-form-factor boards often aren't supplied with USB connectors -- so many of the people who could potentially use this device don't have a USB port available to plug it into. "But do you think Radio Shack's webpages are going to be any more informative than their catalog?" In many cases, yes. For RCA TVs they even have downloadable (PDF) spec sheets. "And what's this nonsense of starting words with a colon?" They're just being artsy-fartsy. "Actually, I've always thought it would be cool if PC's came with barcode readers as standard equipment. I can think of all kinds of uses for them (the old Tandy Model 100 from the mid-1980s had a port where you could plug in a barcode reader, but I don't think anyone really used it for anything)." PCM Magazine had BASIC program listings for the Model 100, Tandy 102 and Tandy 200 that could be scanned in from bar codes in the back of the magazine. - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:11:07 -0400 From: "Ed Ellers" Subject: Re: Office COCOT??? Roy Smith wrote: "Today I was over there and needed to make a phone call. So I picked up one of the phones and dialed. I was surprised and amused to hear a (very poor audio quality) recording saying, "The call you have made requires a 25 cent deposit. Please hang up, deposit 25 cents, and try your call again". "I was rolling on the floor. Of course, the folks in the office weren't very amused; they've been trying to get it fixed for the two months since they moved in there." I'd say that that is the opposite of most COCOTs -- you're talking about a normal phone on a line provisioned for coin service, while most COCOTs are specifically *not* on lines provisioned for coin service, but instead use a microcontroller in the phone (which is a big reason why so many of them stink on dry ice). - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:16:10 -0400 From: "Ed Ellers" Subject: Re: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner, but is privacy compromised? Andrew Green wrote: "By comparison, getting yet another proprietary barcode system into common use is going to be a bigger hurdle for them -- how many people are still using those VCRplus codes in the TV listings?" Probably a fair number, since VCR Plus+ is still featured in most new VCRs. Matsushita Electric (the company behind Panasonic) actually had a bar code wand on VCRs in the mid-1980s, both in Japan and elsewhere; several Japanese listings magazines carried the bar codes (it probably helped that MEI is probably the biggest advertiser in Japan), but in North America the bar code system was only used with a special printed sheet to quickly enter times and channels manually. - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:03:32 -0400 From: Joel B Levin Subject: Re: Sorry, but... On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:14:07 GMT you wrote: }On 15 Sep 2000 14:59:29 -0400, in comp.dcom.telecom you wrote: }| If you are using a decent usenet server, posted messages to }| moderated groups like this should be automatically forwarded }| to the robo-moderator for posting. } }Currently usenet posts are being sent by usenet servers to Pat's }old address at MIT - not to the current submission address at }"editor@telecom-digest.org". } }Perhaps an integrated mail-news server would help. I use Free }Agent - which allows me to reply via email and send email. They are nevertheless getting there -- my submissions have almost all been posted to Usenet. I presume Pat's address at MIT is autoforwarding them to the robomoderator also. /JBL - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 15:41:47 -0400 From: Joel B Levin Subject: Re: Message format (was: Radio Shack gives away barcode scanner...) In <200009160113.KAA10710@coral.ocn.ne.jp>, John De Hoog wrote: }In the distant past it may have been correct protocol to put in hard }carriage returns a la the typewriter; but this is the age of HTML and }format=flowed . . . Usenet is in the age of its lowest common denominator and still adheres to a standard of plain, fixed width text format and lines wrapped at less than 80 characters (thus allowing some room for quoting characters). I frequently skip articles in html (1) because they're not worth the trouble to decipher and (2) because if I did have an html-aware newsreader they could easily be a source of web bugs I don't want to enable. /JBL - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 17:39:28 -0400 From: sjsobol@NorthShoreTechnologies.net (Steve Sobol) Subject: Re: Sorry, but... >>From 'blackhole@handheld.net': >I am sorry that some of you could not read my previous message. > > >Since this list is Robo-Moderated it apparently does not accept > >Usenet posts. Read the confirmation message you got from the bot - you must confirm that you actually made the original post before it gets posted. This is done to prevent spam, and you only need to do it before the first post you make to the group. >So I have to send via E-mail and I use Eudora and it simply will >not break up the lines unless I double-space them like this. Or, you could simply read the instructions given to you. :) >When we had a human moderator, posts from Usenet were >accepted and we did not have this problem (also I could munge >my return address in such a way that a human could figure out >how to contact me via e-mail). Posts from usenet ARE accepted, and you can munge the From: header and use a Reply-to: header - that should work fine (right, John?) - -- North Shore Technologies, Cleveland, OH http://NorthShoreTechnologies.net Steve Sobol, BOFH - President, Chief Website Architect and Janitor Linux Instructor, PC/LAN Program, Natl. Institute of Technology, Akron, OH sjsobol@NorthShoreTechnologies.net - 888.480.4NET - 216.619.2NET - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 2000 17:54:56 -0400 From: johnl@iecc.com (John R Levine) Subject: Re: Message format, enough already >}Currently usenet posts are being sent by usenet servers to Pat's >}old address at MIT - not to the current submission address at >}"editor@telecom-digest.org". They're forwarded to the right place; I have the password to Pat's account and adjusted that. Re Eudora, mail, news, and all that -- this newsgroup and mailing list are plain text only. The modbot looks for MIME headers and bounces back anything that isn't. I don't currently filter messages with ridiculously long lines, but perhaps I should bounce or quietly fold them, too. Discussions of moderation policy aren't really on topic. If you have questions about the way the modbot does or doesn't work, please ask me directly. - -- John R. Levine, IECC, POB 727, Trumansburg NY 14886 +1 607 387 6869 johnl@iecc.com, Village Trustee and Sewer Commissioner, http://iecc.com/johnl, Member, Provisional board, Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-mail - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 2000 00:27:54 -0400 From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Subject: Re: GTE Bay Area "John Willkie" wrote in message news:LAW-F193HvoFOAmEaJs000085b5@hotmail.com... > Re; you're posting about gte in the bay area. The franchises were > established about six or seven decades (or more) before the Rural > Electrification Administration or the FCC started handing out subsidies, and > then (with a couple of exceptions) only to RURAL telephone > companies/systems. (GTE did quite well at that trough, then sold off many > small systems in the 1990's). > > You should examine telephone history: Bell and Home battled it out > overbuilding in the same markets, without interconnection. GTE's > predecessors got hick towns (Santa Monica, Los Gatos, Morgan Hill) and > interconnected with Bell and sometimes Home. Some of those communities are > now significant in size: until you look at the other cities in their local > metropolitan areas. Fourteen years ago, GTE served about 3% of the wireline customers in the SF metro area, according to the FCC order permitting PacTel to acquire additional interests in the nonwireline cellular operator. See _James F. Rill, Trustee_, 1986 FCC LEXIS 3364, 60 Rad. Reg. 2d (P & F) 583, FCC 86-251, at n.35 (May 27, 1986). Much has changed in the Bay area since then, but GTE is still a bit player in the SF area's local exchange business. - -- The Telecom Digest is currently robomoderated. Please mail messages to editor@telecom-digest.org. ------------------------------ End of Telecom Digest V2000 #56 *******************************