Return-Path: Received: by massis.lcs.mit.edu (8.7.4/NSCS-1.0S) id IAA29740; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:57:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:57:15 -0500 (EST) From: editor@telecom-digest.org Message-Id: <199710301357.IAA29740@massis.lcs.mit.edu> To: ptownson Subject: TELECOM Digest V17 #297 TELECOM Digest Thu, 30 Oct 97 08:57:00 EST Volume 17 : Issue 297 Inside This Issue: Editor: Patrick A. Townson New NPA for St. Paul (Tad Cook) Free Telecom Seminar (Joe Scotti) Phone Extension to Remote Location (EdM@barneyboller.com) 800/888 Rationing Update (Judith Oppenheimer) Call For Papers: Applied Telecommunication Symposium (B.L. Bodnar) Re: Paging Firm Collapses (Anthony Argyriou) Re: Modem Users, Who You Gonna Call?; Not Bell Atlantic (Rudy Torres) Re: Modem Users, Who You Gonna Call?; Not Bell Atlantic (samiller@BIX.com) Re: Gilder Says Reno Attacked Microsoft too Late (L. Drew Davis) Re: Tower Site Leases (Adam H. Kerman) Re: Tower Site Leases (Bruce Wilson) Re: Tower Site Leases (Allison Hift) Re: New York Times on Net Day (John R. Levine) Re: New York Times on Net Day (Kevin DeMartino) Re: Canada Area 867 Activated Today (Linc Madison) TELECOM Digest is an electronic journal devoted mostly but not exclusively to telecommunications topics. It is circulated anywhere there is email, in addition to various telecom forums on a variety of public service systems and networks including Compuserve and America On Line. It is also gatewayed to Usenet where it appears as the moderated newsgroup 'comp.dcom.telecom'. Subscriptions are available to qualified organizations and individual readers. Write and tell us how you qualify: * telecom-request@telecom-digest.org * The Digest is edited, published and compilation-copyrighted by Patrick Townson of Skokie, Illinois USA. You can reach us by postal mail, fax or phone at: Post Office Box 4621 Skokie, IL USA 60076 Phone: 847-727-5427 Fax: 773-539-4630 ** Article submission address: editor@telecom-digest.org ** Our archives are available for your review/research. The URL is: http://telecom-digest.org They can also be accessed using anonymous ftp: ftp hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/archives (or use our mirror site: ftp ftp.epix.net/pub/telecom-archives) A third method is the Telecom Email Information Service: Send a note to archives@telecom-digest.org to receive a help file for using this method or write me and ask for a copy of the help file for the Telecom Archives. ************************************************************************* * TELECOM Digest is partially funded by a grant from the * * International Telecommunication Union (ITU) in Geneva, Switzerland * * under the aegis of its Telecom Information Exchange Services (TIES) * * project. Views expressed herein should not be construed as represent-* * ing views of the ITU. * ************************************************************************* Finally, the Digest is funded by gifts from generous readers such as yourself who provide funding in amounts deemed appropriate. Your help is important and appreciated. A suggested donation of twenty dollars per year per reader is considered appropriate. See our address above. Please make at least a single donation to cover the cost of processing your name to the mailing list. All opinions expressed herein are deemed to be those of the author. Any organizations listed are for identification purposes only and messages should not be considered any official expression by the organization. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: New NPA for St. Paul Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:31:06 PST From: tad@ssc.com (Tad Cook) St. Paul, Minn., to Get New Area Code, Agency Decides By Martin J. Moylan, Saint Paul Pioneer Press, Minn. Knight-Ridder/Tribune Business News Oct. 29--St. Paul and other communities in the eastern half of the Twin Cities will be switched to a new area code next July, the Minnesota Public Utilities Commission decided Tuesday. The split will leave Minneapolis and the western suburbs in the 612 area -- at least for the time being. The PUC did not rule out the possibility of yet another split sometime in the next several years. Without the split, the supply of telephone numbers in the 612 area code likely would have been exhausted by summer, thanks to a growing appetite by customers for second lines, cellular phones, pagers and other devices. In August, the PUC couldn't agree on a solution after a series of public hearings on the subject over the summer. But commissioners on Tuesday readily approved the east-west split on a 4-1 vote, saying it keeps together communities that identify with each other, requires relatively little ten-digit dialing and fosters competition between US West and companies that want to challenge its lock on the local phone business. "There's something to being able to dial seven digits," Chairman Edward Garvey said. "Sixty to eighty percent of calls would be seven digits under a split. With this split, we can preserve seven-digit dialing for most citizens most of the time." Don Storm was the only commissioner to back an "overlay" plan, which would have superimposed a new area code on the existing 612 area code. Existing phone customers would get to keep their old numbers. But that would also mean two area codes for the same area, and all calls would require ten-digit dialing. Under that proposal, some homes and businesses could have ended up with telephones having different area codes. "Are we concluding that the public is not capable of doing more ten-digit dialing?" asked Storm. "I can't see anything less disruptive than the overlay. ... The public is much brighter and more capable of adjusting to multiple numbers than we acknowledge." But commissioner Gregory Scott said an overlay would leave US West with the bulk of 612 numbers, and consumers and business would value it more. "I can't get around the idea that an overlay is anti-competitive," he said. In the fall of 1999, the PUC will consider the Twin Cites' need for perhaps a third area code. It's gambling that efforts to conserve telephone numbers and technology fixes will preclude that, though. But if a new area code is needed, the commission indicated it would give Minneapolis, Richfield and some adjacent communities an area code of their own. The commission expects US West will appeal its decision because of the commission's edict that the east-west split follow municipal boundaries, not phone exchange lines. US West protested that rejiggering its network to follow community lines would be risky and cost it at least $10 million. But Garvey dismissed the Baby Bell's laments. "We should not be held hostage to willy-nilly exchange boundaries," he said. The commission's east-west boundary is pretty soft, actually. It had not even assigned all suburbs to one side or the other when it voted for the area code split Tuesday. Garvey said that some suburbs could switch sides if that made deployment of a new area code easier. The PUC also left some big issues hanging. It did not address what relief, if any, to offer alarm companies that must reprogram burglar and other alarms. A trade group representative estimated that the Twin Cities area has 100,000 to 150,000 alarms. The commission also did not decide if it will allow cellular phones and pagers held by St. Paulites and their eastern brethren to be grandfathered. That would mean they would not have to reprogram the devices with a new area code. At Tuesday's hearing, US West and the Minnesota Telephone Association, representing 88 of the state's 92 local phone companies, backed an overlay, arguing it provided the greatest long-term relief with the least amount of confusion. "With a split you have to think, `Where am I calling and where am I calling from?"' said Mike Thompson of US West. "An overlay eliminates that confusion. A split adds complexity and creates confusion." The overlay has been adopted in only a few states, including Maryland and Colorado. The Minnesota Business Utilities Users Council, which includes 3M, Honeywell, Norwest Bank, and 12 other big Minnesota companies, called for a split. saying it would better promote competition, while retaining a high degree of seven-digit dialing. "And tying an area code to some sort of geographic connection is deeply important," said Bill Flynn of the MBUUC. "It is deeply embedded in the psyche of rate payers." In voting for an east-west split, the PUC rejected two other split options on the table. One would have divided the 612 area code in three areas immediately. The other -- the doughnut approach -- would have given one area code to Minneapolis and St. Paul and some surrounding suburbs. Another code would have gone to the rest of the territory that now comprises the 612 area code. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:03:35 -0500 From: Joe Scotti Subject: Free Telecom Seminar Register Now... COMPLIMENTARY CONFERENCE SLATED FOR NOV. 6TH Learn How Competition in the Local Telecommunications Market May Impact Your Business. Hampstead, NH-- AUDITEL, Inc., a telecommunications management consulting firm in Hampstead, NH, announces a complimentary seminar by way of a dial-in telephone conference on November 6, 1997 at 10:00 a.m. The interactive telephone conference will focus on helping New Hampshire businesses better understand how competition in the local telecommunications market may impact their business. The conference will be opened by co-hosts Joe Scotti, AUDITEL's president, and Attorney Andrew Eills of Gallagher, Callahan and Gartrell. They will discuss issues surrounding telecommunications technology and its impact on business consumers in New Hampshire. This overview will be followed by a panel discussion. "Several of the companies providing local telephone services have enthusiastically agreed to join the panel and share their vision of the future, as well as their perspective on the current state of local competition," says Scotti. "This is a tremendous opportunity to talk directly with the people who are shaping the future of telecommunications in New Hampshire." A question and answer period will following the panel discussion. The last education teleconference held jointly by AUDITEL and Gallagher, Callahan and Gartrell was held in May of 1997 and addressed the issues of presubscription and deregulation. Anyone wishing to join in on the telephone conference may register by calling AUDITEL at 1-800-364-2616, extension 21. Registration is limited to 100 participants. Upon registration participants will be given a special dial-in phone number for the conference along with a PIN identification code to gain access to the program. While the conference itself is presented at no cost to 'attendees', normal long distance charges apply. AUDITEL, Inc. is a telecommunications management and consulting company based in Hampstead, NH. With 40 years of industry experience, AUDITEL assists companies with the design, procurement, installation and implementation of telephone systems, data networks, videoconferencing systems, wireless systems, and disaster planning programs. Gallagher, Callahan and Gartrell, a full-service law firm representing clients in the areas of utilities and telecommunications, is co-sponsoring the event. Andrew Eills practices business law with Gallagher, Callahan and Gartrell where his practice includes representing clients in the telecommunications field. 213 Stage Road www.auditel.com Tel: (603) 329-5000x21 Hampstead, NH 03841 telecom@auditel.com Fax: (603) 329-5511 ------------------------------ From: Ed M Subject: Phone Extension to Remote Location Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:38:36 -0500 Organization: Netcom I would like to run a phone extension from a PBX to a location 4400 feet from the nearest phone jack. Running to this location is a power cable (120 VAC) and multimode fiber. I was planning to use boxes that run phone over AC but this doesn't seem to work over these distances. I was assured by the salesperson that the units I tried (the brand is EZOnline) would work so long as they are on the same phase but all I get is hiss though they work fine when placed closer together. Being consumer level stuff the technical support is nil. Does anyone know where I can get "extended range" phone-over-AC units? Or does anyone know where I can get equipment that is cabable of running an extension out over multimode fiber? Thanks. (remove nospam if replying privately) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:34:39 -0500 From: Judith Oppenheimer Reply-To: joppenheimer@icbtollfree.com Organization: ICB TOLL FREE - 800/888 news... commentary... consulting... Subject: 800/888 Rationing Update The 888 Conservation Plan will stretch the toll-free resource to April '98, based on certain assumptions, one of which is that the amount of numbers returned to Spare (available) will be approximately 54,230 per week, an amount derived at from last year's averages. Toll-free number growth -- amount Reserved less amount returned to Spare -- for the week ending October 25 was approximately 58,955 numbers, certainly within plan parameters. However, the amount of numbers returned to Spare last week was down 20,000 from prior weeks, which signals, at the very least, an appearance of RespOrgs recycling disconnected numbers, rather than return them to the available pool. Beyond the legal ramifications, a trend in this direction would indicate a potential problem in reaching April '98. Judith Oppenheimer, Publisher ICB TOLL FREE NEWS - http://www.icbtollfree.com Mailto:joppenheimer@icbtollfree.com with your name, company name and title to activate 15-day FREE Online trial subscription. Incl. fax number (U.S. only) for FREE Fax Edition trial subscription. FREE GIFT OFFER: mailto:freegift@icbtollfree.com ------------------------------ From: bohdan@ihgp4.ih.lucent.com (B. L. Bodnar) Subject: Call For Papers: Applied Telecommunication Symposium Date: 29 Oct 1997 22:03:20 GMT Organization: Lucent Technologies Applied Telecommunication Symposium (ATS) Part of the 1998 Advanced Simulation Technologies Conference (ASTC'98) April 5-9, 1998 Boston Park Plaza Hotel Boston, Massachusetts The Applied Telecommunication Symposium is intended for professionals, engineers, developers, managers, and others interested in cellular and packet traffic characteristics, analysis of telecommunication networks, and practitioners operating telecommunication networks. We are looking for innovative technical papers describing projects, applications, and research and development work pertinent to telecommunication. Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: - Traffic Models 1. Internet Traffic 2. Packet Switching 3. Cellular (CDMA, TDMA, Voice Signaling, Call Details) - Overload Control and High Load Handling 1. Internet on POTS Line 2. Internet Telephony 3. Load Balancing 4. Overload Control Strategies - Component Modeling - Processors - Interprocessor Communication - Systems - Router Design and Evaluation - ATM - Voice & Data Integration Conference Committee: Dr. Bohdan Bodnar Lucent Technologies, Inc. bbodnar@lucent.com Dr. Ariel Sharon Lucent Technologies, Inc. asharon@lucent-com Keith Stanley Lucent Technologies, Inc. krstan@lucent.com Dr. Axel Lehmann University of Munich lehmann@informatik.unibw-muenchen.de Three copies of a 300-word abstract or a draft paper should be submitted to the session organizers by November 24, 1997. Notification of acceptance is currently being sent for papers which have been submitted. Full papers will be published in the Conference Proceedings and should be submitted to The Society for Computer Simulation International by January 12, 1998. The abstracts should be sent to: Applied Telecommunication Symposium c/o ASTC'98 P.O. Box 17900 San Diego, CA 92177 USA The Society for Computer Simulation International may be accessed on the Web at http://www.scs.org ------------------------------ From: anthony@alphageo.com (Anthony Argyriou) Subject: Re: Paging Firm Collapses Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:32:03 GMT Organization: Alpha Geotechnical Reply-To: anthony@alphageo.com tad@ssc.com (Tad Cook) passed our way: > California Bay Area Pager Service's Collapse No Surprise > By Jon Healey, San Jose Mercury News, Calif. > Knight-Ridder/Tribune Business News > SAN JOSE, Calif.--Oct. 27--The collapse of EconoPage Inc., the largest [various snips] > As a reseller, EconoPage did not operate a paging network; instead, it > resold the pagers and services it bought in bulk from some of the > nation's largest paging networks, including PageNet and PageMart > Inc. of Dallas. > PageNet is now in the process of cutting off service to customers who > purchased paging contracts through EconoPage, but it is also offering > them a discount rate of $60 to continue their service for another > year. Eligible customers are those whose pagers have a PageNet logo. My girlfriend's pager was from EconoPage. She was paged today (Wednesday) by TSR Wireless, her service provider. The number has a taped message saying that they will be contacting customers directly within three weeks to re-establish them as direct TSR Wireless customers, and that they will not cut off service before then. > EconoPage's biggest growth spurt came in the last six to 12 months, > after it had opened more than 30 retail outlets, Wolk said. About five > months ago, though, checks that EconoPage had written to PageNet for > pagers started to bounce. My local EconoPage store has a sign on the door which says "closed for internal audit" - their phone number is apparently pretty unresponsive (I was told that the OGM is "Hello. Goodbye.") An employee of a competitor of their's told me that the owners of the company were very difficult to find recently, and implied that they may have run off to Hawaii, or some such, as their company collapsed. More news when my girlfriend experiences it. Anthony Argyriou http://www.alphageo.com ------------------------------ From: Rudy Torres Subject: Re: Modem Users, Who You Gonna Call?; Not Bell Atlantic Date: 30 Oct 1997 07:39:55 GMT Organization: Swisscom AG Reply-To: Rudy Torres Maybe it is time for consumers to complain very loudly to their PUCs about Bell Atlantic's new policy. I'm sure the PUCs will authorize such a policy in exchange for much lower tariff prices to satisfy consumers. Or, like the residents in some are of New York (IIRC) some time ago protested, they all flushed their toliets at the same time causing a serious problem to the Department of Water and Sewage (whom the residents were protesting). Maybe all the users of Modems and Faxes in Bell Atlantic's region should all dial into the PSTN at the same time (over and over again by millions of customers) for about 30 minutes in protest. Just a thought on democracy and economic market forces. : ) A very successful businessman once said, "...always remember, the customer is always right." Rudy [To e-mail via auto-reply, please remove "anti-spam" measures from the address prior to sending] ------------------------------ From: samiller@BIX.com Subject: Re: Modem Users, Who You Gonna Call?; Not Bell Atlantic Date: 29 Oct 1997 13:12:06 GMT Organization: Galahad On Mon, 27 Oct 97 16:17 EST Robert J. Perillo of TELECOM Digest wrote this re Modem Users, Who You Gonna Call?; Not Bell Atlantic: > This decision is seen as a marketing move to stimulate demand for > ISDN lines Got the letter, thought it was stupid (although I personally don't see how anyone could go for BA's inside wire maintenance anyway ;>) What confuses me is the allegation that BA hopes to use this ploy to sell ISDN (that was my reading of the letter as well) because AFAIK BA stopped scheduling ISDN installations about six months ago, about the time their proposed ISDN tariffs were shot down. Are they installing now? If not, what the aitch do they want? Scott A. Miller samiller@bix.com samiller@bellatlantic.net ------------------------------ From: drewd@mindspring.com (L. Drew Davis) Subject: Re: Gilder Says Reno Attacked Microsoft too Late Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:14:33 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Reply-To: drewd@mindspring.com TELECOM Digest Editor noted in response to Eric Florack : > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: I don't think Ms. Reno is very good at > math. Let's pencil this out: how many shares of Microsoft does Gates > own? A bit under 271 million, as of September 1997, or about 22.3% of the company. > How much is the value of each share? At close on the 29th, 131 1/8th. > His net worth now is around 48 billion I think. About 35.5 billion in Microsoft stock. I have no idea what else he may own, but it's probably negligible compared with the Microsoft shares. > Given a fine of a million dollars per day, Gates will be broke in > 101 years ... The whole point of a corporation is to separate individual assets from company assets. Microsoft, not Gates, will be paying the fine (if any). $1 million per day represents about 10% of MS's earnings after taxes last year. In terms of assets, they've got about 9 billion in cash out of 10 billion total, and they're earning about 5% on that money. Their interest income could cover the fine. (Invidious comparisons in this post brought to you by www.sec.gov and the EDGAR database. A "10K" is an annual report, and a "14A" is a proxy statement listing people with significant numbers of shares.) L. Drew Davis drewd@mindspring.com You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:52:47 CST From: Adam H. Kerman Subject: Re: Tower Site Leases Marty Bose wrote: > I'm disappointed to see TELECOM Digest publishing a troll request > like this one. When I worked for a PCS carrier this was a typical > request from a lawyer trying to find a way for his client to bust a > lease that the owner had second thoughts about. On the average they > would come back and request a new lease at four to ten times the > original lease, usually after construction had started. It's perfectly legitimate to ask about the value of land. I assumed that no lease had been signed. I hope the landowner gets a lease at a fair price. What would not be fair is if his land isn't immediately reassessed at its new, higher value. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:00:18 -0500 From: blw1540@aol.com (Bruce Wilson) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Tower Site Leases In article , Marty Bose writes: > I'm disappointed to see TELECOM Digest publishing a troll request like > this one. When I worked for a PCS carrier this was a typical request > from a lawyer trying to find a way for his client to bust a lease that > the owner had second thoughts about. On the average they would come > back and request a new lease at four to ten times the original lease, > usually after construction had started. This sounds like the Bell System (and large independent) paranoia I came to know and love during my years with what was then the Iowa State Commerce Commission. I don't see any way that knowing what average terms are will help a party break a lease. Somebody who wants to try holding a gun to a company's head is going to try to do it regardless of what others may be doing and how their demands compare to averages. Bruce Wilson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:26:36 EST From: Allison Hift Subject: Re: Tower Site Leases I take this opportunity to respond too the post by Marty Bose: > I'm disappointed to see TELECOM Digest publishing a troll request like > this one. When I worked for a PCS carrier this was a typical request > from a lawyer trying to find a way for his client to bust a lease that > the owner had second thoughts about. On the average they would come > back and request a new lease at four to ten times the original lease, > usually after construction had started. > I hope that no one will respond to this, as this guy may go to work > for one of your clients next! "This guy" that you refer to is a young, ambitious, woman who just graduated from law school and will be admitted to the Bar in November. I have clerked for two years for the Law Firm of Leibowitz & Associates, P.A. This Firm solely represents counties and cities in telecommunications matters. I am now an attorney at this Firm (Pending Bar Admission). I, along with the Law Firm, pride myself on practicing fairly and ethically. I do not appreciate you rude posting concerning my question. I am collecting information concerning tower site lease agreements throughout the United States so that I can assist a client of the Firm's in making an informed, intelligent decision. Allison K. Hift, Bar Admission Pending Leibowitz & Associates, P.A. 1 Southeast Third Ave. Suite 1450 Miami, Florida 33131-1715 Voice (305) 530-1322 Fax (305) 530-9417 http://www.library.law.miami.edu/~hift hift@cobra.law.miami.edu ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 1997 05:33:18 -0000 From: johnl@iecc.com (John R. Levine) Subject: Re: New York Times on Net Day Organization: I.E.C.C., Trumansburg, N.Y. > An article in Saturday's {New York Times} (10/25/97) "Internet's > Value in U.S. Schools Still in Question" (page 1) described the 2nd > annual netday and showed the prejudice of some of the press against > the educational use of the Internet. I thought the story was pretty well balanced. I've been active getting our small upstate district on-line, and we're all acutely aware that although Net access can be quite useful to high school kids, the younger the kids are the less use they have for computers. As others have noted, computers are expensive and installing computers for the sake of doing so is rarely a good use of limited district funds. We are fortunate in having a lot of skilled local volunteers (many Cornell people live in the district) and enough wiggle room in the budget that we were able to add money for computers without cutting anything else. But if it were a tradeoff between, say, elementary school computers and elementary school music and art instruction, I know which one I'd choose. John R. Levine, IECC, POB 640 Trumansburg NY 14886 +1 607 387 6869 johnl@iecc.com, Village Trustee and Sewer Commissioner, http://iecc.com/johnl, Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 ------------------------------ From: Kevin DeMartino Subject: Re: New York Times on Net Day Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:58:59 -0500 Thomas G. Spalthoff is right on target (V17 #293). The Internet is a great medium for communicating and accessing information, but it is not a silver bullet for our schools. Do we really need every classroom wired to the Internet, as President Clinton has suggested? Computer literacy is important, but it is not as important as literacy in English (and other languages). Kevin DeMartino kdemartino@drc.com ------------------------------ From: Telecom@LincMad.NOSPAM (Linc Madison) Subject: Re: Canada Area 867 Activated Today Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:04:39 -0800 Organization: LincMad Consulting; change NOSPAM to COM In article , jdg@but-i-dont-like-spam.boxmail.com (John David Galt) wrote: > No one has mentioned this, but I doubt that folks _in_ the territories > have permissive dialing, because lots of prefixes in Alberta probably > conflict with those in the eastern (former 819) part of 867; and lots > of prefixes in Quebec/819 probably conflict with those in the western > part of 867. It's a moot point, unless some part of Yukon/NWT allows seven-digit toll dialing. If they have 1+10D for HNPA tolls, then there is no ambiguity: you can dial 1-{403/819/867}-nxx-xxxx, permissively, with the obvious caveats. Dixon, CA, had to be splash cut without outbound permissive dialing on their realignment because they have 7D HNPA toll dialing. Another interesting angle, though, would be local calls in Inuvik. Presumably they can still have permissive dialing of the local 979-xxxx or 777-xxxx numbers, assuming they have full toll alerting. If you dial 777-xxxx, you must mean (867) 777-xxxx, since otherwise you'd dial 1-403-777-xxxx; likewise, 979-xxxx must mean (403) 979-xxxx, since otherwise you'd dial 1-819- or 1-867-979-xxxx. Then again, Inuvik is small enough that they might have local 4D dialing. ** Do not spam e-mail me! ** Linc Madison * San Francisco, California * Telecom@LincMad-com >> NOTE: if you autoreply, you must change "NOSPAM" to "com" << ------------------------------ End of TELECOM Digest V17 #297 ******************************