Subj : Re: Penruddock and Lowther To : All From : Venelow Date : Thu Sep 06 2018 11:14 pm From: Venelow On Tuesday, September 4, 2018 at 8:49:08 PM UTC-4, ch...@dickinson.uk.net w= rote: > On Wednesday, 5 September 2018 00:31:51 UTC+1, Venelow wrote: > > On Sunday, September 2, 2018 at 5:39:07 PM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote: > > > On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 8:53:53 PM UTC-7, Venelow wrote: > > > > On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 3:19:45 PM UTC-4, Venelow wrote: > > > > > Hi Medievalists > > > > > > > > > > I am researching family history and am now on unfamiliar ground. = A family tree provided by a professional genealogist many years ago links t= o the Penruddock family through Mary the daughter of Sir Edward and Mary (M= assey) who married Stephen Bowman. The information about the Penruddocks en= ds with Robert P. of Arkelby, Cumberland who is said to have married Agnes = the dau. and h. of Sir William Leigh and his father Thomas P. said to have = married Agnes Lowther the daughter of Sir John Lowther of Westmorland. > > > > > > > > > > This information appears to have come from Crisp's Visitations. T= here are no dates attached to Robert or Thomas. I have worked out that Agn= es Leigh was the daughter of Sir William Leigh who died in 1439 leaving an = heir who was still in their minority. This comes from his father's (also Si= r William Leigh) entry in the History of Parliament series about early M.Ps= ... > > > > > > > > > > It appears that Agnes Leigh's parents were William Leigh and Isob= el Lowther and they married in 1424. Isobel was one of the daughters of Rob= ert Lowther and Margaret Strickland and Robert was the son of Sir John Lowt= her and Maud/Margaret Preston. (Rev. C.M. Lowther Bouch CW2 48 p122) > > > > > > > > > > I have not been able to find a daughter of Sir John Lowther calle= d Agnes and the chronology seems to be a bit off. I did find a Thomas Penru= ddock was a witness to the nuncupative will of Robert Lowther dated 17 Marc= h 1429/30. If this is the same Thomas Penruddock (father of Robert) then it= does appear that the two families were well acquainted if not actually rel= ated by marriage at that date. > > > > > > > > > > If Thomas Penruddock did marry a daughter of Sir John Lowther the= n Robert's mother would be his wife's great aunt and Robert and Agnes would= be first cousins once removed. > > > > > Does anyone have any information about Agnes Lowther or confirmat= ion of who Thomas Penruddock of Arkelby married? > > > > > > > > > > Any insight into this problem gratefully recieved. Thanks for rea= ding. > > > > > > > > > > Venelow > > > > > Canada > > > > > > > > Thank you John. I knew about the Owen book but did not know it was = available online. However the information in it has thrown up more problems= with the Penruddock tree as presented in the Visitations of England and Wa= les Vol 4 1902 by Frederick Arthur Crisp. > > > > That shows Edward Penruddock of Arkelby who died before 27 Sept 156= 0 husband of Elizabeth Highmore. His father Robert P. of Arkelby husband of= Agnes Leigh dau and h. of William Leigh and his father Thomas P. husband o= f Agnes Lowther. > > > > > > > > In the Owen book the Agnes Lowther and Thomas Penruddock marriage i= s some generations after the William Leigh Isobel marriage instead of being= before. It seems the "Professional Genealogist" of approx.60 to 70 years a= go was not very diligent. This is not the first time I have found the infor= mation provided in this tree to be inaccurate. Back to the drawing board > > > > > > > > If anyone has credible information on the Penruddocks from Sir Geor= ge of Ivy Church, Wilts M.P. for Salisbury 1552/3 back into Cumberland I wo= uld be grateful to receive it. > > > > > > > > Many thanks. > > > > Venelow > > > > Canada > > > > > > I think the problem here may lie not in the family of Penrudduck, but= rather in the family of Leigh of Isell =E2=80=93 and specifically in the i= dentification of the Sir William Leigh whose daughter Agnes married Robert = Penruddock of Arkelby. > > > > > > I'm not aware of any good pedigree of the family, but it seem= s that there were five Williams in succession in the late 14th century and = throughout the 15th century. The family continued to produce MPs for Cumbe= rland as late as the reign of Elizabeth I, but the connection of the later = Leighs to the earlier ones is not very clear. > > > > > > The five Williams seem to have been easily confused by various author= s (including which one served as MP at which times), but this is what I=E2= =80=99ve been able to piece together from Roskell's HOP 1386-1421, = Wedgwood's HOP 1439-1509, and various articles (not always accurate= ) in Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeologi= cal Society. > > > > > > 1. William Leigh (living 1394); m. Katherine NN > > > 2. Sir William Leigh (d. 1428), MP various times between 1399 and 141= 9; m. Agnes, dau. of Sir Clement Skelton > > > 3. Sir William Leigh (aged 40 [or 34?] at father's death, d. = 1439), MP 1433 [or 1423?]; m. Isabel, dau. of Sir Robert Lowther > > > 4. Sir William Leigh (beheaded 1462), MP 1459 > > > 5. Sir William Leigh, Sheriff of Cumberland 1469; m. Elizabeth, dau. = of John Hudleston (m. (2) Sir Edward Redman) > > > > > > I can presently find no later William Leigh, but that doesn't= mean there wasn't one. Based on this construction, however, I=E2= =80=99d suggest that Agnes Leigh who married Robert Penruddock was probably= not the daughter of the Sir William Leigh who married Agnes Lowther. It= 's more likely, but definitely not certain, that she was the daught= er of the last known Sir William Leigh, Sheriff in 1469. The chronology he= re is better than the alternative, but it's not great. Perhaps the= Penruddock pedigrees simply mis-identified the name of Agnes Leigh=E2=80= =99s father - maybe he wasn't a William at all. > > > > > > Hi Again John > > > > Thank you for your reply re Sir William Leigh (Legh Lee, Ley etc.). I s= pent last weekend looking for more information on the Leighs and found a tr= ee online that stated the son of Sir William Leigh (II) had a son called W= illiam who married Elizabeth Hudleston. So I was already suspecting my theo= ry that the heir who was a minor when Sir William II died in 1439, referred= to in the History of Parliament biography of his father William I, was no= t a daughter called Agnes. It had looked most promising especially as the = pedigree states she was the hieress of Sir William Leigh and she appeared t= o be called after her grandmother Agnes Skelton. I agree that since the nam= e Leigh Lee etc is so profilic there could be an error as to his first name= ... > > > > I have also been looking at the information from Hugh Owen's bo= ok that Agnes Lowther the daughter of Sir John Lowther c. 1487 =E2=80=93 1= 553 was the Agnes that married Thomas Penruddock. This information is in C= hapter 5 on page 58. There is a source note number 13 on p. 418 which refe= rences Sir John's will as a source for his wife Lucy surviving him.= Then adds =E2=80=9CFor Thomas Penruddock see Harleian Society Vol 10 p.148= Wiltshire Visitations 1623.=E2=80=9D > > > > I managed to track down Sir John's Will of 1552 and there is no= mention of Agnes or any Penruddock grandchildren. I could not find the Vo= l 10 version of the Wiltshire Visitations of 1623 but I did find other edit= ions. One edited by George W Marshall p.66 =E2=80=93 67 does not mention Th= omas Penruddock and Agnes Lowther but starts with Sir George Penruddock and= Elizabeth Apryce and mentions that his father was Edward of Arkelby. Anot= her version published in 1828 starts with George Penruddock son of Edward o= f Arkleby and completely misses his son Edward who married Mary Massey and = proceeds with his grandson John who who married Joan Mead. > > > > The Wiltshire Visitations of 1565 and the Cumberland Visitations of 161= 3 do start with Thomas Penruddock and Agnes Lowther but no dates are mentio= ned. I assume the Vol 10 version of 1623 includes the earlier information. > > > > There is a drawing of the Penruddock Arms in the 1613 Visitations. The = arms were granted to George Penruddock in 1548. The six annulets of the Lo= wther family feature in the bottom left quarter. I don't know what the othe= r two quarters are. > > > > Guess I'll just keep digging. Thank you for taking the time to answer. > > > > Sincerely, > > Venelow > > Canada > > Just a thought that probably isn't very helpful. Roy Hudleston did a lot = of work on Cumbrian families and I'm not sure how much has been published b= eyond 'Cumberland Families & Heraldry'. He donated all his papers to Durham= University, so it might be worth contacting their archivist. > > http://reed.dur.ac.uk/xtf/view?docId ark/32150_s1mk61rg99c.xml&toc.id= > > Chris Hi Chris Thank you for that information. In trying to work out if there is a Lowther= or Leigh connection I am trying to find out about the Penruddock coat of a= rms which was, according to his biography on the History of Parliament site= , granted in 1548. This was twenty years before he was knighted in 1568. He= died in 1581 and in the Visitations of Cumberland 1615 the coat of arms is= quartered with the arms of Sandford, Lowther and either Lumley or Thweng? = The editor is not sure. I found the fourth quarter in the Visitation of Yorkshire, 1564 as belongin= g to the Aslakeby (or Aslaby) family but there is a Thweng mentioned in the= pedigree. The Sandford pedigree was also in the Yorks 1564. No mention of any Penrudd= ocks in these pedigrees. Sir George's father Edward d.c. 1560 is said to ha= ve married Elizabeth Highmoor and there is a Sandford in the Highmore pedig= ree but no suitable candidate to be the Elizabeth married to Edward. So I am interested as to how these additions to the Penruddock arms came ab= out. I guess I have to find a copy of Roy Hudleston's book and see if they are m= entioned. Thanks for responding. Venelow Canada --- NewsGate v1.0 gamma 2 * Origin: News Gate @ Net396 -Huntsville, AL - USA (1:396/4) .