11-Jan-2009 11:53:16-PST,3179;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:51:18 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.199]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 07:05:46 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ool-45720130.dyn.optonline.net [69.114.1.48]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0KDB007BUB8TSSM0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:05:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:05:16 -0500 From: Thomas DeBellis Subject: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction? To: Tops-20 Wizards Message-id: <496A0AAC.1080104@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) ReSent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:51:11 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I just ran across some interesting interaction between the SIBE% JSYS and ERJMPR. As far as I recall, no control transfer in the ERJMP group is ever supposed to occur unless the process encounters an error in the JSYS or instruction directly before the ERJMP. Not so with SIBE%, it seems. It turns out that if the input buffer is not empty, the ERJMPR is always taken. But the process has does not seem to have encountered any error, has it? At least the last error hasn't changed ... Check out the following program and type while it is asleep. The process stops at NEMPTY+4 (error path) both on a TVT and a LAT terminal. Ac1 is always properly filled TITLE SIBEH SEARCH MONSYM,MACSYM SIBEH: movei 1,.fhslf movei 2,lstrx1 seter% movei 1,^d5000 disms% movei 1,.priin setzb 2,4 sibe% erjmpr NEMPTY EMPTY: haltf% nop nop NEMPTY: dmove 3,1 movei 1,.fhslf geter% haltf% nop nop END 1,,SIBEH @execute sibeh MACRO: SIBEH LINK: Loading [LNKXCT SIBEH execution] @i for MIC (2): Kept, Background, SLEEP at EOFWPC+1, 0:00:02.8 => MACRO (1): HALT at NEMPTY+4, 0:00:00.0 @e 1 1/ 400000 @e 2/ SETZ LSTRX1 (2/ 400000,,601405) @e 3/ LSTRX1 (3/ 601405) @e 4/ 36 @ 11-Jan-2009 12:33:05-PST,1628;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:31:28 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:31:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:31:04 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction? In-Reply-To: <496A0AAC.1080104@optonline.net> Message-ID: References: <496A0AAC.1080104@optonline.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:31:19 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) The general idea of ERJMP is to make system calls behave like TOPS-10 system calls in having a +1 and +2 return. In the case of SIBE%/ERJMP, it seems pointless to me for ERJMP to behave in any other way. If the ERJMP is not taken, then what's the point of doing a SIBE% other than validating the JFN? -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 11-Jan-2009 15:26:56-PST,3199;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:25:18 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.200]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:55:57 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ool-45720130.dyn.optonline.net [69.114.1.48]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0KDB00HWNRH30LS0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:55:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:55:50 -0500 From: Thomas DeBellis Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction? In-reply-to: To: Mark Crispin Cc: Tops-20 Wizards Message-id: <496A5CD6.1010609@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <496A0AAC.1080104@optonline.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) ReSent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:25:11 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Become more like Tops-10?? Boy that's never occured to me ... My impression was that the ERJMP/ERCAL functionality was to elminate the possibility of some errors which would otherwise cause software interrupts from breaking program control flow. In EFTPSR, I just about never want a JSYS to blow up--I want control. Another example (perhaps not good) is that sometimes I need to check for non-existent pages and putting an ERJMP after an ILDB is one way to do this. There are others. So I put lots of ERJMP's everywhere and have lots of code for error conditions. Perhaps too defensive, I suppose. On the other hand, I have to be that defensive in order for the new FTP server to more gracefully handle attacks (and of course, not get broken). I bumped into this because I got hit with another type of attack ... Cretins ... But the point was that the ERJMP gets taken even if there is no error. That seems counter-intuitive and contradicts what's in JSYS REFERENCE (section 1.4). It's certainly easy enough to code around. But it just strikes me as odd somehow... Mark Crispin wrote: > The general idea of ERJMP is to make system calls behave like > TOPS-10 system calls in having a +1 and +2 return. > > In the case of SIBE%/ERJMP, it seems pointless to me for ERJMP to > behave in any other way. If the ERJMP is not taken, then what's the > point of doing a SIBE% other than validating the JFN? > > -- Mark -- > > http://panda.com/tops-20 > TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors > > 11-Jan-2009 15:33:18-PST,2243;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:31:37 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:31:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:31:09 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction? In-Reply-To: <496A5CD6.1010609@optonline.net> Message-ID: References: <496A0AAC.1080104@optonline.net> <496A5CD6.1010609@optonline.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:31:30 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote: > But the point was that the ERJMP gets taken even if there is no error. > That seems counter-intuitive and contradicts what's in JSYS REFERENCE > (section 1.4). It's certainly easy enough to code around. In the case of SIBE/ERJMP, what is the useful behavior? There are only two possible actions: take the ERJMP, or resume flow at +2. As a machine instruction, ERJMP is a no-op. If it works as if you suggest, then it would ERJMP only if the JFN is invalid (various DESXxx codes; a program bug); otherwise resume at +2 whether or not the buffer is empty. If it works the way it does, then it ERJMPs if the JFN is invalid or the buffer is non-empty, or resumes at +2 if the buffer is empty. The latter behavior seems more useful, given what SIBE is supposed to do. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 28-Jan-2009 19:07:37-PST,1199;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:05:51 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:03:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:04:42 -0800 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: OPR failure on panda machine. To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14381242541.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:05:45 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: OPR failure on panda machine. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Do this: @ena $R OPR OPR>push semi-operator or operator capability required. OPR> ^C $opr OPR>push Tops-20 panda EXEC VERSION ... @POP OPR>^C $DISA the problem is with monitor version 7.1(21733)-4, exec version 7.1(4453)-4, and opr verison 6(7134). --jsol ------- 28-Jan-2009 19:10:24-PST,1851;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:08:53 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:05:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:04:45 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: OPR failure on panda machine. In-Reply-To: <14381242541.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14381242541.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:08:46 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: OPR failure on panda machine. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) OPR does a RSCAN, and whatever occurs after the first word is used as the command to execute on a PUSH. Try "OPR BASIC". On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > Do this: > > @ena > $R OPR > OPR>push > semi-operator or operator capability required. > > OPR> > ^C > $opr > OPR>push > > Tops-20 panda EXEC VERSION ... > > @POP > OPR>^C > > $DISA > the problem is with monitor version 7.1(21733)-4, exec version > 7.1(4453)-4, and opr verison 6(7134). > > --jsol > ------- > -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 29-Jan-2009 14:10:40-PST,2718;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:08:56 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:43:03 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549CE3480F for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:42:55 -0500 (EST) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 103292424F; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:42:55 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com In-reply-to: (message from Mark Crispin on Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:04:45 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: OPR failure on panda machine. References: <14381242541.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-Id: <20090129214255.103292424F@panix5.panix.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:42:55 -0500 (EST) ReSent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:08:47 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: OPR failure on panda machine. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:04:45 -0800 (PST) > From: Mark Crispin > OPR does a RSCAN, and whatever occurs after the first word is used as the > command to execute on a PUSH. Try "OPR BASIC". > On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: >> Do this: >> @ena >> $R OPR >> OPR>push >> semi-operator or operator capability required. >> OPR> >> ^C >> $opr >> OPR>push >> Tops-20 panda EXEC VERSION ... >> @POP >> OPR>^C >> $DISA >> the problem is with monitor version 7.1(21733)-4, exec version >> 7.1(4453)-4, and opr verison 6(7134). What jsol didn't mention in his posting is that he verified through me that that sequence of commands works as expected on the Toad-1 at PDPplanet before sending it to this list. The log I sent him follows: !res * !r opr OPR>push TOPS-20 Command processor 7(5000)-3 !pop OPR>ex !res * !disa @r opr 17:26:51 --SEMI-OPERATOR or OPERATOR privileges required-- @res * @opr 17:27:04 --SEMI-OPERATOR or OPERATOR privileges required-- @res * @ena !opr OPR>push TOPS-20 Command processor 7(5000)-3 !pop OPR>ex ! Rich 29-Jan-2009 14:54:20-PST,2729;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:52:47 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:52:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:52:23 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Rich Alderson cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: OPR failure on panda machine. In-Reply-To: <20090129214255.103292424F@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: References: <14381242541.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <20090129214255.103292424F@panix5.panix.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:52:36 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: OPR failure on panda machine. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > What jsol didn't mention in his posting is that he verified through me that > that sequence of commands works as expected on the Toad-1 at PDPplanet before > sending it to this list. You have an older, and hacked, version of OPR: 6(7073)-3. Panda has 6(7134), which is newer and unhacked. I suspect that XKL never used any of the stuff on the TSU tapes. We know what happens: the command line is RSCANd and anything after the first word is passed as the command line to the fork when a PUSH is done. There's strong evidence that it is intentional. The apparent intent is to set up a restricted operator environment via "OPR some-command" where "some-command" is what gets done when a PUSH is done. Towards the end, there was quite a bit of attention in TOPS-20 towards limiting operator privileges. Given that: . it is probably intentional . we don't know what else added in the TSU tapes may depend upon it. . it is security code in a security-sensitive program . even if it is a bug, it is utterly unimportant (why should we care about funny behavior if someone is silly enough to say "R OPR" instead of "OPR"?) I don't think that it's a good use of time to worry about it any further. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 7-Mar-2009 10:00:55-PST,4402;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 09:59:10 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 07:48:08 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n27Fm2VT002187 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 10:48:02 -0500 Message-ID: <49B29731.90302@acedsl.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 10:48:01 -0500 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: SPACS%/PMAP% file store Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 09:59:01 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: SPACS%/PMAP% file store ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Does anyone know what the interaction is between SPACS% and PMAP% when outputing to a file? On input, I know that SPACS% can override the page access of whatever the file was PMAP%'ed with. In other words, if I have a file mapped in with write access, I can shut off that write access with an SPACS%. On the other hand, nothing that either SPACS% or PMAP% does gets remembered on an output. I don't believe that the FDB (or anything else) has (perhaps) an index slot for a per-page protection. Did TENEX? I don't recall that it did and--from what I can remember from the TENEX JSYS manual--it didn't. But I only used TENEX a very few times, and that on a Foonly... Was a file store per page access protection envisioned? If so, this would have been interesting (among several other interesting TENEX features) The reason I make the inquiry is (of course) the long awaited Tops-20 Extended Mode FTP server. I'm debugging the dynamic paged buffering logic (meaning everything else works, including paged retrieves). Once this is done ... I know that SSAVE% writes page access information into the .EXE file and that GET% respects that information when pulling a file into a fork's virtual address space. At some point, when I implement a post-lude for the new FTP server (which is partially crafted), my intention is to leverage this SSAVE%/GET% behavior. Right now, it does lots of SPACS% on start up to write protect pages. The BBN server appears to be similar in this regard (lots of SPACS%), which is where I got the idea from. What I'm seeing is that, when running paged file structures, the Tops-20 FTP client ALWAYS sends access control pages (with the result of an RPACS%), whether or not the remote host is running Tops-20. My initial thought was that this was kind of strange because the client knows some things about whether it is talking to a Tops-20 flavored host. Access control information will always be lost on Tops-20 on the completion of the output PMAP%. Err, right? What is odd is that the (much older) BBN FTP server will only send simple data pages (I.E., no page access bits) when running on Tops-20. And the Tops-20 FTP client knows how to handle these simple data pages. The BBN server also knows how to handle simple pages, too. Why would the Tops-20 FTP client always send access controlled pages at all? This results in a 25% increase in page header information which can be significant for highly compressed (I.E., zero trimmed) pages. Well, I've been puzzling over it. Respecting write protected files, maybe? Something like 424242? Maybe not. No matter what page protection is sent, the file descriptor page is going to override this after the final PMAP% is done when the pos-transfer code does it's (winning) CHFDB% stuff. Debugging maybe? Any stray (or otherwise errorneous) stores by the remote client into the buffer would be caught. That's useful which, besides backward compatibility, is another reason that I'll keep this. But why send this all the time? 7-Mar-2009 10:02:22-PST,4575;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 09:59:35 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 08:22:21 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n27GMEtv016518 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 11:22:14 -0500 Message-ID: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:22:13 -0500 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Another Uptime Record Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 09:59:20 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Tommy Timesharing is nearing its second uptime record! As can be seen below, it was booted on Lincoln's birthday of last year. Very Presidential. Assuming I make it to next Monday morning, I will need to set a system shutdown in order to avoid the dredded (but nearly infinately admirable) UP2LNG bug halt. ---------------------------------------------------------------- @TIMET2.EXE Tops-20 was booted on Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:19:18AM-EST. It will crash with an UP2LNG BUGHLT on Monday, March 16, 2009 2:41:36AM-EDT. @i mon Up 9337:59:45!!!!!!!!! Idle 98% Waiting 0% Sched ovh 1% Pager traps 0% Swap reads 62318 Writes 1387371 File reads 3917225 Writes 9296233 8092 Pages of user memory 1012606059 Term wakeups 11233 Term interrupts NBAL av 0.46 NRUN av 0.02 Runtime of jobs on sched queues 0-6 (sec) 175201 98148 98437 21811 5565 54015 5765 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Well, what with my host machine having a big honking UPS and there being fairly good power here (although I do get a lot of transients), maybe I'll set lots of uptime records. Heh. Which leads me to think about some future behavior. Right now, UP2LNG makes me nervous. It just happens, with no warning. So users could lose work or worse, the file system could get whacked or worse. Bad... It seems to me that an interim hack might be to have the system fudge an HSYS% once we were within three hours of an UP2LNG. It's straightforward enough: UPDTCK could poke a value into HSYST1. Then CHKHSY would send messages appropriately and the EXEC would properly report it. Obviously, you wouldn't want this value queued... Which leads me to another concern that I had had. Outside of a (five minute?) window, HSYS% values are always queued. Same deal on a reboot. However, there are certain cases where you do NOT want the HSyS% queued. There is no way to specify this. A long time ago (September of 2003), I rewrote HSYS% to handle some problems with the queued code. It would be easy enough to modify it to handle this. But I was wondering about this whole uptime business anyway. I mean, why should a Unix (blech) system stay up longer than a (winning) Tops-20 system? I could modify the millisecond clock code to keep the uptime count in a signed double. I'd update it with a DADD or some such. Lots of changes to compares ... Then I'd change TIME% to give an error return (or otherwise gronk) when the old clock wrapped (or something). Then I could catch programs which needed to be modified. I know that Galaxy is at least one of these, but I know how to fix that (one of the advantages of being Columbia's Galaxy Hero for eight years). The new FTP server also expects a single word TIME% result, but the internal computation itself handles uptimes (which it needs to simulate /bin/ls behavior) as if it were passed a double. That will be easy enough to fix. Same deal with the TIME2T program. But how to get the double word to the user address space? Modify TIME% to return a double when running in an extended section. Or maybe an XTIME% JSYS? Didn't somebody already do something like this? 7-Mar-2009 12:03:03-PST,1871;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:01:26 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 11:31:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 11:31:42 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record In-Reply-To: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> Message-ID: References: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:01:20 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote: > But I was wondering about this whole uptime business anyway. I mean, > why should a Unix (blech) system stay up longer than a (winning) > Tops-20 system? I could modify the millisecond clock code to keep the > uptime count in a signed double. I'd update it with a DADD or some > such. Lots of changes to compares ... Then I'd change TIME% to give > an error return (or otherwise gronk) when the old clock wrapped (or > something). XKL did this in their system. Ralph Gorin may be able to answer these questions. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 7-Mar-2009 18:24:27-PST,4028;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:22:31 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail.xkl.com ([192.94.202.37]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:35:30 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from tardis.xkl.com (fw1-dmz.xkl.com [192.94.202.33]) by mail.xkl.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n27MZNro003712 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:35:25 -0800 X-Received: from obfuscation.xkl.com (obfuscation.xkl.com [10.10.0.198]) by tardis.xkl.com (8.14.1/8.13.3/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id n27MZIqd020819; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:35:20 -0800 Message-ID: <49B2F6A6.3040602@xkl.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:35:18 -0800 From: Ralph Gorin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas DeBellis CC: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record References: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> In-Reply-To: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 192.94.202.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 10.1.0.29 ReSent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:22:24 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) We've had systems crash with UP2LNG. (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in the future. I changed it to HRLOI AC,377777.) We made an attempt to allow the clock to wrap to negative numbers by changing to what amount to unsigned comparisons. But this doesn't work perfectly. And it only doubles the possible uptime. There are a lot of places where millisecond resolution isn't needed: I've changed some code to compare against a clock that advances only once each second. Tom's idea to hold TODCLK in a double word has merit. Some timed dismisses expect to compute on only one word; various fork tables would need to be extended for double words. The change is tedious but straight-forward. We changed the TIME% JSYS. Our version takes an argument in AC 1. As the original did not require AC 1 to be set up, this is not perfectly winning. On the other hand, the chances of a program offering one of the sixbit names by accident is small. If AC 1 contains 'TODSEC' then return the uptime in seconds in AC 1, the residue in milliseconds in LH of AC 2 and the divisor to convert to seconds (the number 1) in the RH of AC 2. if AC 1 contains 'MSTIME' then return the uptime in milliseconds as a double word in AC 1 and AC 2. For other values of AC 1, the old behavior is preserved: the uptime in milliseconds is returned in AC 1 and the divisor (^D1000) is returned in AC 2. Unfortunately, published documentation says the value is milliseconds and the divisor is ^D1000, so there would be a lot of broken programs if you changed units. If the uptime has exceeded 2^35 milliseonds, the program gets the TIMEX3 error. This is an encouragement to fix old programs. Ralph The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address. 7-Mar-2009 18:34:13-PST,1790;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:32:45 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:32:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:32:03 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Ralph Gorin cc: Thomas DeBellis , Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record In-Reply-To: <49B2F6A6.3040602@xkl.com> Message-ID: References: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> <49B2F6A6.3040602@xkl.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:32:34 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Ralph Gorin wrote: > (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks > would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody > thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in > the future. I changed it to HRLOI AC,377777.) Yes, we have that fix. It's at FUNLK+5. You told us about it back in 1998. Thanks again, or we'd be having problems after only 198 days... -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 7-Mar-2009 19:11:35-PST,2574;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mv.opost.com ([199.125.75.195]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 19:05:08 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from road.fpl (road.fpl [172.22.41.6]) by mv.opost.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n2834wbj005808 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 7 Mar 2009 22:04:58 -0500 X-Received: from road.fpl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by road.fpl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n2834vNY026657; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 22:04:57 -0500 X-Received: (from dlm@localhost) by road.fpl (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id n2834vYG026656; Sat, 7 Mar 2009 22:04:57 -0500 Message-Id: <200903080304.n2834vYG026656@road.fpl> From: Dan Murphy Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 22:04:57 -0500 To: gorin@xkl.com, slogin@acedsl.com, TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record Reply-To: Dan Murphy X-ParkBits-MailScanner-ID: n2834wbj005808 X-ParkBits-MailScanner: Not scanned. X-ParkBits-MailScanner-From: dlm@opost.com X-Spam-Status: No ReSent-Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 19:09:53 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Ralph Gorin on Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:35:18 -0800 writes: > (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks > would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody > thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in > the future. Yup. Might have been me. > I changed it to HRLOI AC,377777.) OK, so I reckon that is 2^35 ms = 34E6 seconds = 397.68 days. That's a pretty good uptime. I'll challenge anyone to present a Windoze box that has been up that long. However, I have (had) a Linux box that beats that by a long mile. It is a machine that sits on the internet 24/7, no external firewall, serving web sites, email, dns, ntp, and ssh. (www.parkbits.com if you are interested.) I brought it down back on November 30, 2008, to upgrade software. It had been running Fedora Core 3. At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for 780 days. -d 8-Mar-2009 14:52:30-PDT,2038;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:50:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8E034801 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:44:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 774132427A; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:44:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM In-reply-to: <49B2F6A6.3040602@xkl.com> (message from Ralph Gorin on Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:35:18 -0800) Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record References: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> <49B2F6A6.3040602@xkl.com> Message-Id: <20090308214440.774132427A@panix5.panix.com> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:44:40 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:50:20 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:35:18 -0800 > From: Ralph Gorin > Tom's idea to hold TODCLK in a double word has merit. > Some timed dismisses expect to compute on only one word; > various fork tables would need to be extended for double words. > The change is tedious but straight-forward. 2^70 = 1,180,591,620,717,411,303,424 microseconds = 13,664,254,869,414.4826785185185... days = 37,410,690,949.8 years I think that would suffice to prevent UP2LNG BUGHLT's on well-maintained hardware. I'd be happy to make the changes necessary. Rich 8-Mar-2009 15:59:49-PDT,2030;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:58:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:51:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Dan Murphy cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record In-Reply-To: <200903080304.n2834vYG026656@road.fpl> Message-ID: References: <200903080304.n2834vYG026656@road.fpl> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:58:08 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Dan Murphy wrote: >> (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks >> would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody >> thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in >> the future. > Yup. Might have been me. I seem to recall that field service wanted to take a KL down for PM every two weeks, and a KS down every month. So it probably wasn't unreasonable to assume that 198 days was good enough. > At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for > 780 days. I've seen servers with 4-digit day uptimes: 1,095 days from deployment to retirement due to going off warranty, with no outage in-between. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 8-Mar-2009 16:01:17-PDT,2445;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:58:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:57:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store In-Reply-To: <49B29731.90302@acedsl.com> Message-ID: References: <49B29731.90302@acedsl.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:58:20 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote: > Did TENEX? I don't recall that it did and--from what I can remember > from the TENEX JSYS manual--it didn't. From reading the early Tenex papers, it seems that this was envisioned but was never implemented. Since Dan Murphy has revealed that he reads this list, perhaps he can comment (with considerably more authority!). > What I'm seeing is that, when running paged file structures, the > Tops-20 FTP client ALWAYS sends access control pages (with the result > of an RPACS%), whether or not the remote host is running Tops-20. I don't believe that FTP on any operating system other than Tenex and TOPS-20 ever implemented paged mode. > Why would the Tops-20 FTP client always send access controlled pages > at all? I assume that you're talking about the one written at Stanford that was hacked from PUPFTP, and not the original Tenex/TOPS-20 FTP program. I assume that they did it because they saw the capability in the protocol specification and implemented it without regard for whatever or not it was useful. Take a look at what the old BBN FTP client did. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 8-Mar-2009 19:19:53-PDT,3033;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 19:18:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mv.opost.com ([199.125.75.195]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 19:17:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from road.fpl (road.fpl [172.22.41.6]) by mv.opost.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n292HYx7013558 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Mar 2009 22:17:34 -0400 X-Received: from road.fpl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by road.fpl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n292HYTQ014268; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 22:17:34 -0400 X-Received: (from dlm@localhost) by road.fpl (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id n292HX4E014267; Sun, 8 Mar 2009 22:17:33 -0400 Message-Id: <200903090217.n292HX4E014267@road.fpl> From: Dan Murphy Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 22:17:33 -0400 To: MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM, TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record Reply-To: Dan Murphy X-ParkBits-MailScanner-ID: n292HYx7013558 X-ParkBits-MailScanner: Not scanned. X-ParkBits-MailScanner-From: dlm@opost.com X-Spam-Status: No ReSent-Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 19:18:08 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) OK, so while we are giving credit, I will point out that some of Mark's code was, and is, being exercised constantly on my servers, namely the uw-imap package that provides imap and pop3 access to my email clients. Alas, the Fedora packages have denigrated that in recent releases in favor of the cyrus components. Fortunately, I can still get and build the uw-imap components. To return the compliment, imapd is a great improvement over its successors. -d ===================== Mark Crispin on Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:51:09 -0700 (PDT) writes: > On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Dan Murphy wrote: > >> (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks > >> would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody > >> thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in > >> the future. > > Yup. Might have been me. > I seem to recall that field service wanted to take a KL down for PM every > two weeks, and a KS down every month. So it probably wasn't unreasonable > to assume that 198 days was good enough. > > At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for > > 780 days. > I've seen servers with 4-digit day uptimes: 1,095 days from deployment to > retirement due to going off warranty, with no outage in-between. > -- Mark -- > http://panda.com/tops-20 > TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 9-Mar-2009 16:18:04-PDT,6333;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 16:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.198]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 15:55:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ool-45720130.dyn.optonline.net [69.114.1.48]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0KG9003A2H0HRMJ0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM; Mon, 09 Mar 2009 18:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 18:55:28 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record In-reply-to: <20090308214440.774132427A@panix5.panix.com> To: Rich Alderson Cc: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Message-id: <49B59E60.1090906@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> <49B2F6A6.3040602@xkl.com> <20090308214440.774132427A@panix5.panix.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) ReSent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 16:16:08 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Rich, Ah yes, large numbers. And times. I wasn't sure about the units you used in your calculations for a 70-bit TODCLK. This is a MILLI-second (ms) based clock, not a MICRO-second (us) one. Er, right? Let me know if you ever do do any work on this. I knocked together a set of macros to compare signed double word values that may be of use to you. I call them the DCAM group and it is my intention to seperately publish them in the spirit of HSTNAM and GETCPU sometime after releasing the server. I handle all single word unsigned values by casting them to (positive) double signed values, performing the arithmatic and then folding the results back into single unsigned values. I do this because using (large) unsigned numbers has always caused deep confusion for me. This is particularly the case on the PDP-10 which does not have unsigned comparison. Unsigned arithmatic is more straight forward on the Intel 80x86 architecture due to the existance of an unsigned conditional jump. However, it is still a pain in the neck (or at least my neck, anyway). I once wrote an uptime program under OS/2 1.x to handle the 32 bit unsigned millisecond clock from the global information segment. Here is what it says on my Windows 2000 laptop (the last Windows version which includes support for OS/2 1.x protected mode applications): OS/2 up 1 week, 2 days, 18 hours, 45 minutes, 51 seconds and 274 milliseconds As an aside, Windows XP will allow 16 bit dual mode applications to run, but odd things happen. I seem to recall that even this is broken in Vista. Anyway, at 0xffffffff milliseconds, the counter wraps after 7 weeks, 17 hours, 2 minutes, 47 seconds and 295 milliseconds. Provided you are not doing presentation manager development, my OS/2 machines regularly wrapped this count. Not bad. To get back to Tops-20, casting to signed longs must be done for ALL time calculations, including anything that uses the time of day. Although Tops-20 will easily handle anything after 19-JAN-2038 03:14:07-GMT, there is at least some system code that is going to break on 27-SEP-2217 20:00:00-EST (do you see why)? There are some changes that I made to Galaxy that address the TOD problem. There are some other places that I still need to review. If you'll have a look at I$AGE and I$AFTER in QSRADM.MAC, you'll see what I'm talking about. Processing numbers that approach the dynamic range of storage variables is NOT obvious for mere mortals! Many programs get it wrong. For example, have a look at this output from Tennessee Tuxedo (TTux), Tommy Timesharing's (TOMMYT) host Linux (Debian) box: slogin@TTux:~$ uptime 13:56:07 up 116 days, 2:57, 2 users, load average: 0.10, 0.09, 0.02 slogin@TTux:~$ Since TOMMYT itself has been up over 9,387 hours, this number is clearly wrong. One assumes this because a 32 bit counter got wrapped. I'd point this out to some Linux hero (Larry Greenfield? Michael K. Johnson?), but the last time I tried to do something like that (concerning IP policy routing maps), I got nearly two solid weeks of NIH and nothing else. Actually I couldn't even get them to understand what I was talking about. Immensely frustrating. Same deal with an early version of psFTP. It may be remembered that I had to 'fix' the Tops-20 FTP client to not send either the MODE or STRU. God that was annoying. All so I could download some RFCs... Another number example would be the previous error with the KLH10 implementation of CVTDBO (which Mark fixed). It may be remembered that [EXP .INFIN,.INFIN] was converted to 20,070,057,552,195,992,158, 207 and not 1,180,591,620,717,411,303,423. That being said, do you see why your working value of 1,180,591,620, 717,411,303,424 is incorrect (I.E., off by one)? It's tedious work. And Annoying. Tools have to be used carefully or they do the wrong thing (or at least display incorrect results). Excel 2000 does the wrong thing, too: (POWER(2,70)-1) displaying as the same value as POWER(2,70). Assuming 1,000 milliseconds per second, 60 seconds per minute, 60 minutes per hour, 24 hours per day, 7 days a week and 52 weeks per year, when I ran the math, I got a maximum uptime 37,539,161,729 years, 8 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 35 seconds and 3 milli-seconds. That Seems Adequate... It's close enough to what Excel gets: 37,539,161,729 years, 8 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours and 36 seconds, zero milliseconds. So how did you get 37,410,690,949.8? I think it's the hallmark of a Tops-20 programmer (as opposed to the wann-be's) that we're at least aware of this kind of stuff. --T 9-Mar-2009 16:57:42-PDT,3434;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 16:56:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 16:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n29NgfGE028501; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:42:41 -0400 Message-ID: <49B5A96F.9050603@acedsl.com> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 19:42:39 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Murphy CC: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record References: <200903080304.n2834vYG026656@road.fpl> In-Reply-To: <200903080304.n2834vYG026656@road.fpl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 16:56:03 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > That's a pretty good uptime. I'll challenge anyone to present a > Windoze box that has been up that long. Well, there are uptimes and then there are uptimes for Windows. I think a lot depends on what the mission of the box is. I have a Windows 2000 Server that has been in continuous service for over a year. This is an IBM x232 with a triple redundant UPS, hot swap power supplies, error correcting memory and a RAID 5 with two hot spares. The box does nothing but run Backup Exec to backup about 50 Windows workstations. And serve files. It never has any software installed on it. Nobody logs into it (under pain of death), either. Typically, I have to take a Windows box out of service to apply (the many required) security patch updates. And every software package install seems to crave a reboot these days. Notwithstanding the previous, I can't get my Windows XP Professional machine to stay up for more than a month, even if I torpedo the Windows Explorer (which sometimes gets me an extra week or so). One supposes this is un-Professional.. Windows has gotten better about auto-whacking itself while doing software development. Provided you were not doing Presentation Manager development, OS/2 was remarkably robust (see previous), particularly if you were running a monochrome monitor (in addition to the EGA). I regularly wrapped the (32 bit millisecond) uptime counter. But I don't actually know what my longest uptime was. I assume my Debian stays up so long because I don't use it to do anything but run the KLH10 microengine. It does run latd and sshd. > At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for 780 > days. How could you tell? I mean what program did you use? Uptime gives the wrong results. What impresses me about Tops-20 is that I have done a bucketload of development on the FTP server and haven't had any downtime. Lots of wrong arguments to monitor calls, ^C'ing and it runs as a top- level fork. No downtime. 9-Mar-2009 17:30:19-PDT,2446;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:28:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:09:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCE734802 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:09:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 2423D2427B; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:09:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM In-reply-to: <49B59E60.1090906@optonline.net> (message from Thomas DeBellis on Mon, 09 Mar 2009 18:55:28 -0400) Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record References: <49B29F35.4010402@acedsl.com> <49B2F6A6.3040602@xkl.com> <20090308214440.774132427A@panix5.panix.com> <49B59E60.1090906@optonline.net> Message-Id: <20090310000931.2423D2427B@panix5.panix.com> Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:09:31 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:28:38 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Hey, Tom, http://sun-microsystems.org/BigCalculator/BigCalculator.shtml Yes, an off-by-1 error. I entered 2^70 and neglected to subtract 1. As for the rest: - Divide by 1000_10 (1750_8) to get seconds - Divide by 86400_10 to get days - Divide by 365.25_10 to get years I was going for a back-of-the-envelope approximation, to show the desirability of the doubleword TODCLK, not looking to implement it at the moment I was writing my posting. I think we're all agreed that the heat death of the universe is a reasonable epoch to shoot for... Your answer is incorrect to the extent that a year is not 52 7-day weeks (i. e., 364 days), but I would expect your answer to larger, not smaller, on that account. It is entirely possible that the calculator I used is not as good as it might be. I didn't feel like doing the math by hand, 'coz 2^70 is a lot of dividend. Rich 9-Mar-2009 19:07:25-PDT,2883;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mv.opost.com ([199.125.75.195]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 18:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from road.fpl (road.fpl [172.22.41.6]) by mv.opost.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n2A1iANr028767 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:44:10 -0400 X-Received: from road.fpl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by road.fpl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n2A1iAuR009864 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:44:10 -0400 X-Received: (from dlm@localhost) by road.fpl (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id n2A1iACp009863 for TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:44:10 -0400 Message-Id: <200903100144.n2A1iACp009863@road.fpl> From: Dan Murphy Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 21:44:10 -0400 To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record Reply-To: Dan Murphy X-ParkBits-MailScanner-ID: n2A1iANr028767 X-ParkBits-MailScanner: Not scanned. X-ParkBits-MailScanner-From: dlm@opost.com X-Spam-Status: No ReSent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:05:22 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Thomas DeBellis on Mon, 09 Mar 2009 19:42:39 -0400 writes: > > At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for 780 > > days. > How could you tell? I mean what program did you use? Uptime gives > the wrong results. That may be, but I can easily confirm when it was last booted. It was definitely over 2 years prior, but I didn't think to see if the uptime days were exactly right. This system is not quite as HA as the one you describe. No redundant power supplies for example. It does have mirrored RAID disks -- not that any of the disks failed during this time, as that would have required a reboot to replace. It is on a decent but not spectular UPS. In fact, the last outage, 2+ years back, was the result of a municipal power outage in the city where the machine is co-located with a regional ISP -- an outage that lasted over 8 hours and outlived the UPS. I'm not especially concerned with how well software does at running on hardware where the power is off. On hardware that stays up and does not fail however, I like software that does not choke on its own longevity. Cheers, -d 9-Mar-2009 20:06:14-PDT,2150;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:04:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vsta.org ([208.70.148.177]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:24:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from deepthought.vsta.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vsta.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3162EABB4B for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:24:27 -0700 (PDT) To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM From: Andy Valencia Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Mar 2009 21:44:10 EDT." <200903100144.n2A1iACp009863@road.fpl> Message-Id: <20090310022427.3162EABB4B@vsta.org> Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:24:27 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:04:29 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) -------- [Dan Murphy writes:] > I'm not especially concerned with how well software does at > running on hardware where the power is off. On hardware that > stays up and does not fail however, I like software that does not > choke on its own longevity. After IOS got over the inevitable 32-bit millisecond counting kind of issues (just shy of 50 days, I think), we would regularly encounter customer routers which had sat in closets for year after year after year with no service interruption. Mind you, this was *software* routing, not just a CPU idling while silicon handled packets. Those times, of course, are past. I had to eject Cisco the last time I did a major network design because IOS had become just too slow and flaky. Happily there are now very cheap, and very reliable layer 3 switches which boot fast, switch at wire rate, and do it in such a way that it doesn't seem like a big deal. Andy Valencia 9-Mar-2009 20:16:31-PDT,1971;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:09:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Dan Murphy cc: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record In-Reply-To: <200903100144.n2A1iACp009863@road.fpl> Message-ID: References: <200903100144.n2A1iACp009863@road.fpl> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:14:56 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Mon, 9 Mar 2009, Dan Murphy wrote: > It is on a decent but not spectular UPS. In fact, the last > outage, 2+ years back, was the result of a municipal power outage > in the city where the machine is co-located with a regional ISP -- > an outage that lasted over 8 hours and outlived the UPS. I envy you and your talk about outages that outlive the UPS as if that is a remarkable event that happens only every few years. In these parts, pretty much all outages outlive the UPS, there are typically a half dozen outages a year (especially in winter), and anything less than 8 hours is a short outage. The longest outage that I experienced was 5 days. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 11-Mar-2009 08:48:24-PDT,3917;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:46:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,341,1233532800"; d="scan'208";a="154021281" X-Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Mar 2009 10:33:45 +0000 X-Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n2BAXjFP031884; Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:33:45 -0700 X-Received: from cisco.com (pita.cisco.com [171.71.177.199]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n2BAXjvs000364; Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:33:45 GMT X-Received: (from billw@localhost) by cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) id DAA28003; Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Bill Westfield Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 3:32:19 PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield To: Andy Valencia Cc: TOPS-20 List Moderator , TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1439; t=1236767625; x=1237631625; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=billw@cisco.com; z=From:=20William=20=22Chops=22=20Westfield=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Another=20Uptime=20Record |Sender:=20Bill=20Westfield=20; bh=q4efu+4lcAxfgCEp8tXa52ttK8P6u8YFQHHwb9U14zY=; b=FlwfC9y2bmVFaRQxb8GzFK7hCs4Vej3yhn1ScnVPU1Kr6HQdH13jBLUflP 2oMOlSkYeF0bnIjZzpZO19C8FkA4FdfFaE3DIlLisSk28Hej7v8QGOsnWit6 SCPsl+0y0g; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=billw@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); ReSent-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:46:19 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) After IOS got over the inevitable 32-bit millisecond counting kind of issues (just shy of 50 days, I think), we would regularly encounter customer routers which had sat in closets for year after year after year with no service interruption. Mind you, this was *software* routing, not just a CPU idling while silicon handled packets. We just recently had a report from a customer of a 10-y uptime: ============================== SK-HE001-RT002#sh vers Cisco Internetwork Operating System Software IOS (tm) 4500 Software (C4500-J-M), Version 11.2(14), RELEASE SOFTWARE (fc1) Copyright (c) 1986-1998 by cisco Systems, Inc. Compiled Mon 18-May-98 13:54 by tlane Image text-base: 0x600088A0, data-base: 0x607BE000 ROM: System Bootstrap, Version 5.3(16) [richardd 16], RELEASE SOFTWARE (fc1) BOOTFLASH: 4500 Software (C4500-BOOT-M), Version 11.2(14)P, RELEASE SOFTWARE (fc1) SK-HE001-RT002 uptime is 10 years, 4 days, 6 minutes System restarted by power-on at 11:43:38 CET Mon Oct 19 1998 System image file is "flash:c4500-j-mz.112-14", booted via flash Host configuration file is "upg-dcn/133.1.170.1.cfg", booted via tftp ============================== Those times, of course, are past. I had to eject Cisco the last time I did a major network design because IOS had become just too slow and flaky. Don't forget BIG. Sigh :-( BillW 12-Mar-2009 09:43:14-PDT,6029;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:16:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n2CGGIYQ018555; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:16:18 -0400 Message-ID: <49B93551.9060304@acedsl.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:16:17 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Crispin CC: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store References: <49B29731.90302@acedsl.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:41:17 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > > What I'm seeing is that, when running paged file structures, the > > Tops-20 FTP client ALWAYS sends access control pages (with the > > result of an RPACS%), whether or not the remote host is running > > Tops-20. > I don't believe that FTP on any operating system other than Tenex > and TOPS-20 ever implemented paged mode. Sometime during the 1980's, when I was still reading the FTP (lovers?) mailing list, I seem to remember a company called FTP Software. I vaguely recall somebody working on an FTP client there posting a message as to whether they should implement paged file structures or not. Unfortunately, I don't remember the response! This is the only instance that I am aware of where paged file structures were ever mentioned outside of a TENEX/Tops-20 system. But they actually DO make sense for any operating system that supports discontiguous files (I.E., files with 'holes' in them). I thought that Windows NTFS supports this. Another benefit is the file descriptor page which allows the server to set some file meta-data, such as user strings and times. A case could be made for this being a cuteness. More modern FTP clients, such as the Mac OSX character mode one, set some file meta-data via the use of MDTM verb. I may follow this lead at some point to allow some Tops-20 meta-data to be set whether or not paged file structures are being used. Judging from the amount of data being sent over the wire, I plan to modify the FTP client to avoid running with paged file structures unless certain conditions are met. > > Why would the Tops-20 FTP client always send access controlled > > pages at all? > I assume that you're talking about the one written at Stanford that > was hacked from PUPFTP, and not the original Tenex/TOPS-20 FTP > program. Yes. > I assume that they did it because they saw the capability in the > protocol specification and implemented it without regard for > whatever or not it was useful. It's hard to say. As I said before, paged file structures are essential if you want to send files with holes in them. This is useful for sending Quasar's queue file, some kinds of dump files and perhaps database files. Now that I think about it, there were a few instances where I actually did transfer a PRIMARY-MASTER-QUEUE-FILE. QUASAR file from some systems in order to help debug Quasar crashes. I seem to recall I did this on SCORE, once. But this doesn't explain why you'd always want to send access controlled pages... Doing so makes the send loop somewhat more straightforward. I hasten to add that I am reluctant to criticise the Stanford FTP client. It is hands down one of the more winning pieces of code I've come across. Very clear, structured and easy to maintain. > Take a look at what the old BBN FTP client did. I had already done this. That's what had really gotten my puzzler going. The old BBN FTP code does not send access controlled pages when it detects that it is not running on TENEX. If it receives an access controlled page while running under Tops-20, it omits issuing the SPACS%. I think this is the proper behavior. The only reason I can see to send and respect access controlled pages under Tops-20 is that it could help buffer debugging. I have a great deal of logic to try to catch stray stores--write protected code, guard pages and the like. This could be an additional tool. Note that I say BBN FTP code and not the BBN FTP client or server. The TENEX FTP subsystem is architected to have a lot of common code and produces either a client or a server depending on some assembly conditionals. I thought that was a pretty fine idea. If I were ever going to write a Tops-20 FTP client (which I currently see absolutely no reason for doing), I'd probably go with something like this approach. I do, however, have some architectural placeholders for having any program being able to initiate an FTP transfer. The server can be mapped into an inferior fork and the data fork can be directly invoked (I.E., without an RSCAN%) to transfer a file either off of a disk or out of mapped memory (presumably from a superior). Something like the MM/Emacs interface. Likewise, the code should be easily adaptable to IP6. I've already implemented the appropriate keywords to do this (EPRT, EPSV) which the MAC OS X character mode FTP client prefers to use. DECnet, Chaosnet and PUP would be pretty easy, too. 12-Mar-2009 10:58:05-PDT,2456;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:56:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:47:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store In-Reply-To: <49B93551.9060304@acedsl.com> Message-ID: References: <49B29731.90302@acedsl.com> <49B93551.9060304@acedsl.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:56:21 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Thu, 12 Mar 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote: > This is the only instance that I am aware of where paged file > structures were ever mentioned outside of a TENEX/Tops-20 system. > > But they actually DO make sense for any operating system that supports > discontiguous files (I.E., files with 'holes' in them). I thought > that Windows NTFS supports this. Most versions of UNIX also allow holey files, but it is even more rarely used on UNIX than TOPS-20. The virtual disk made by klh10 is holey, although once it gets copied about the holes tend to be filled with zeroes. > The old BBN FTP code does not send access controlled pages > when it detects that it is not running on TENEX. If it receives an > access controlled page while running under Tops-20, it omits issuing > the SPACS%. Hmm, then maybe Tenex did do something that wasn't in TOPS-20. I suspect that this was a difference between the BBN pager and the KL pager. Dan ought to be able to speak much more intelligently and authoritatively about this than me......... -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 12-Mar-2009 11:33:20-PDT,2317;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:31:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from sesame.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.59.56]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:31:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from sesame.cc.columbia.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sesame.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.3/8.14.1) with ESMTP id n2CIV9uB006801; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:31:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: (from fdc@localhost) by sesame.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.3/8.14.1/Submit) id n2CIV95w006800; Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:31:09 EDT From: Frank da Cruz To: Thomas DeBellis Cc: TOPS-20 List Moderator , Mark Crispin , Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store In-Reply-To: <49B93551.9060304@acedsl.com> Message-ID: ReSent-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > But they actually DO make sense for any operating system that supports > discontiguous files (I.E., files with 'holes' in them). I thought > that Windows NTFS supports this. > Unix does too, sort of. /* Make a big file that doesn't actually take up any disk space */ /* To build on Solaris: "make bigfile CFLAGS=-xarch=generic64" */ #include #include main() { FILE * fp; if (!(fp = fopen("BIGFILE","w"))) { printf("fopen failed\n"); exit(1); } if (fseeko(fp,(off_t)3000000000LL,SEEK_SET) < 0) { perror("fseek"); exit(1); } if (fputc('x',fp) == EOF) { perror("fputc"); exit(1); } fclose(fp); exit(0); } I use this for creating a 3GB file for testing 64-bit file access and transfer code without making the disk quota alarms go off. It's a 1-byte file whose first byte is faaaaar away... - Frank 13-Mar-2009 19:58:47-PDT,1624;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:56:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:55:09 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: question about KLH10... To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:56:23 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I am trying to install my very own tops-20 klh20 and what is happens is kind of strange. I have two copies of the emulator/rp07 files, and I can ftp from one to another, but I cannot ftp (or telnet) to the unix gateway host. I don't have any way to set up a static IP address (at lease without changing carriers). I currently use AT&T as my IP carrier. I heard a rumor saying that telnet/ftp/smtp from the tops-20 machine to the gateway unix host are not possible. Is that really true? It is going to be difficult to use my emulator without being able to ftp/telnet/smtp to the unix box. What I want to do is ftp stuff either to or from the gateway host to or from the tops-20 host. thanx, --jsol ------- 13-Mar-2009 20:04:44-PDT,1723;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:03:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:00:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: question about KLH10... In-Reply-To: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:03:09 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > I have two copies of the emulator/rp07 files, and I can ftp from > one to another, but I cannot ftp (or telnet) to the unix gateway host. That happens if the TOPS-20 system and the UNIX host are sharing the same Ethernet interface. Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so TOPS-20 has a dedicated card, and it will work fine. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 14-Mar-2009 13:46:44-PDT,1368;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:44:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:28:29 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: linux klh-20 To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14392977814.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:44:17 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: linux klh-20 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I think I have most of it working. Mark and I were working on some stuff but we have reached an impasse as to what he knows about linux hosting klh20. Right now I can't connect to my linux host from the tops-20 side because linux doesn't support telnet/ftp. I can not connect from the unix to the 20 as it says "no route to host". please let me know what you can tell me. I can send you what you need from my files to see what is done and what needs to be done. --jsol ------- 14-Mar-2009 18:44:18-PDT,1033;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:42:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:24:28 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: one more thing... To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14392988005.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:42:34 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: one more thing... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I share VoIP on the 192.186.1.x host numbers (host 33 for the phone, and host 1 for the unix box). that might be part of the problem... ------- 14-Mar-2009 18:45:45-PDT,1151;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:55:18 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: last one (I hope) To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14392993619.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:42:56 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: last one (I hope) ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I think that I need to make it possible for my unix host tohave two IP addresses, one is the AT&T non-static number, and 192.168.1.1 for the tops-20 sites to use. let me know if you know how is is done... is there a unix mailing list like TOPS-20? ------- 14-Mar-2009 18:47:11-PDT,2411;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vms173003pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.3]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:05:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from bob-smiths-computer.local ([96.231.203.19]) by vms173003.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KGI003MRO1HGVO0@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> for tops-20@lingling.panda.com; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:05:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-id: <49BC2A35.8000507@verizon.net> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:05:41 -0400 From: bob smith Reply-to: Bob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.18) Gecko/20081031 SeaMonkey/1.1.13 MIME-version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" Cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: linux klh-20 References: <14392977814.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> In-reply-to: <14392977814.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:44:25 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: linux klh-20 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > I think I have most of it working. Mark and I were working on > some stuff but we have reached an impasse as to what he knows > about linux hosting klh20. > > Right now I can't connect to my linux host from the tops-20 > side because linux doesn't support telnet/ftp. I can not connect > from the unix to the 20 as it says "no route to host". > > please let me know what you can tell me. > > I can send you what you need from my files to see what is done > and what needs to be done. > > --jsol > ------- > > > Jonathan, what variant of linux are you running? are you running inetd? are your running iptables with with telnet and ftp disabled? bob -- =============================================== Command Line Interface - the only way to feel like you control the computer. 14-Mar-2009 18:49:11-PDT,6618;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:47:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.17]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:59:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from bob-smiths-computer.local ([96.231.203.19]) by vms173017.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KGI00FZ8QITE8UG@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> for tops-20@lingling.panda.com; Sat, 14 Mar 2009 17:59:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-id: <49BC36C5.700@verizon.net> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:59:17 -0400 From: bob smith Reply-to: Bob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.18) Gecko/20081031 SeaMonkey/1.1.13 MIME-version: 1.0 To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: question about KLH10... on linux References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> In-reply-to: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=------------040702010108040107000707 ReSent-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:47:23 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... on linux ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040702010108040107000707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Crispin wrote: > On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: >> I have two copies of the emulator/rp07 files, and I can ftp from >> one to another, but I cannot ftp (or telnet) to the unix gateway host. > > That happens if the TOPS-20 system and the UNIX host are sharing the > same Ethernet interface. Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host > so TOPS-20 has a dedicated card, and it will work fine. > > -- Mark -- > > http://panda.com/tops-20 > TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors > > Jonathan, what are you running - what hardware and what Linux version? Just to make sure I look in the right areas. I have both i386 and x86-64 boxes. I was not pleased with Fedora on i386, many reasons. thanks by the way, I had planned on putting KLH on two systems soon, and you nudged me to start on it sooner than later!! I just unpacked the panda distro I got from mark a while back, I unpacked it on a new to me machine, dual cpu amd box running 64bit linux, unpacks fine, boots into KLH, starts TOPS20, but I was not able to connect - of course this is after editting the ip address in the ini file. I will go back and look at the Linux set up, it is a server set up with virtual support. last time I unpacked the panda I think it was on an alpha running netbsd and there were no issues, just ran, but I will turn that machine on tomorrow and reverify. When I first ran KLH10, I had to do some compile magic to make it work on alpha (thanks Ken, I remember the help!!) and that install is still on that machine. That was a DGC I think I installed panda on both a DS10 and a DGC box, but just ran the RP and TOPS 20 builds on my home built KLH and it worked fine, I have to go check that. Raining here so I have time to play with the computers inside. Will advise. bob -- =============================================== Command Line Interface - the only way to feel like you control the computer. --------------040702010108040107000707 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Crispin wrote:
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
I have two copies of the emulator/rp07 files, and I can ftp from
one to another, but I cannot ftp (or telnet) to the unix gateway host.

That happens if the TOPS-20 system and the UNIX host are sharing the same Ethernet interface.  Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so TOPS-20 has a dedicated card, and it will work fine.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors


Jonathan, what are you running - what hardware and what Linux version?
Just to make sure I look in the right areas.  I have both i386 and x86-64 boxes.
I was not pleased with Fedora on i386, many reasons.
thanks by the way, I had planned on putting KLH on two systems soon, and you nudged me to
start on it sooner than later!!

I just unpacked the panda distro I got from mark a while back, I unpacked it on a new to me machine,
dual cpu amd box running 64bit linux, unpacks fine, boots into KLH, starts TOPS20, but I was not
able to connect - of course this is after editting the ip address in the ini file.
I will go back and look at the Linux set up, it is a server set up with virtual support. last time I unpacked
the panda I think it was on an alpha running netbsd and there were no issues, just ran, but I will turn that
machine on tomorrow and reverify.  When I first ran KLH10, I had to do some compile magic to make it
work on alpha (thanks Ken, I remember the help!!) and that install is still on that machine.  That was a DGC
I think I installed panda on both a DS10 and a DGC box, but just ran the RP and TOPS 20 builds on my home built
KLH and it worked fine, I have to go check that.  Raining here so I have time to play with the computers inside. 
Will advise.
bob


-- 
===============================================
Command Line Interface - the only way to feel like you control the computer.
--------------040702010108040107000707-- 21-Mar-2009 12:31:47-PDT,5570;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:29:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail-gx0-f159.google.com ([209.85.217.159]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:19:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3so4016600gxk.16 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:19:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vL+M4oxRrUSi1/aFehAq/mVUUVyWBh0S23RerlbuRTY=; b=vLMe/5PxjGLgXN63bS2Ks2lMvbpQ5WAzCxixcAwDta9quuCoB6yX7zZpEdKXc2XNFj lcEb4X+7bVHJhB56/JfCIVDUVqiiFv90e6w/X/ulUSKEOOogFl4TObiqvsc4TMKVO97v xA3G/Eq04ipwoR33ntgJl5jRDM9g0mgzvFQdI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nKpkvovik+EsQ+KT6Odicj0VSbEeJNTpLrGBsEFqZgzfhk0r9GcuNsBY9Q+zf9Z8n0 fuCa9EIvke+iY4hDerP/q4nWUO1hQ7BCze+Y0MMhNuCJh2LzTKROH0nVNsExwPYi2JkM oV2IxSEEWE/xrZWZGlk+2dz8ggqTFupaKOrA8= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.150.121.6 with SMTP id t6mr7528852ybc.131.1237663170813; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:19:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 13:19:30 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: question about KLH10... From: Chris Smith To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Cc: Mark Crispin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:29:22 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so TOPS-20 > has a dedicated card, and it will work fine. It is not necessary to add another ethernet card. Obtain Mike McMahon's klh-2.0i from http://home.comcast.net/~mmcm/klh10/tuntap.patch You need to enable this feature by setting a #define in klh10-2.0i/src/Mk-lnx86.mk: CENVFLAGS = -DCENV_CPU_I386=1 -DCENV_SYS_LINUX=1 -DKLH10_NET_TUN=1 \ Make sure your kernel supports TUN/TAP devices Device Drivers ---> [*] Network device support ---> <*> Universal TUN/TAP device driver support or, in a prebuilt kernel, # modprobe tun Enable masquerading if you don't already -- (Here eth0 is your default gateway) # echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward # iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE Choose an otherwise unused subnet, 192.168.36.* Linux will be at 192.168.36.1 Tops-20 will be at 192.168.36.20 Use this line in klt20.ini devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ipaddr=192.168.36.20 tunaddr=192.168.36.1 Hit internet.address IPNI#0,192.168.36.20,PACKET-SIZE:1500,LOGICAL-HOST-MASK:255.0.0.0,DEFAULT,PREFERRED Hit internet.gateways PRIME 192.168.36.1 Hit hosts.txt and resolv.config You need to run kn10-kl as root, not just setuid dpni20 as before. Go. It should say something like [dpni20: ifc "tap0" => ether 32:71:1e:5b:9f:75] [dpni20: tun 192.168.36.1] [dpni20: VHOST 192.168.36.20] [KNILDR: Loading microcode version 1(172) into Ethernet channel 0] tap0 looks like $ ip addr show tap0 18: tap0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast qlen 500 link/ether ca:73:91:b8:40:0d brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff inet 192.168.36.1 peer 192.168.36.20/24 brd 192.168.36.255 scope global tap0 $ ip route show 205.29.245.0/25 dev eth0 proto kernel scope link src 205.29.245.97 192.168.36.0/24 dev tap0 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.36.1 192.168.198.0/24 dev eth1 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.198.1 127.0.0.0/8 dev lo scope link default via 205.29.245.2 dev eth0 Beware of iptables filter rules that reject traffic from the 20. Use tcpdump to debug. ping looks like $ ping 192.168.36.20 PING 192.168.36.20 (192.168.36.20) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from 192.168.36.20: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=0.311 ms 64 bytes from 192.168.36.20: icmp_seq=2 ttl=255 time=0.355 ms arp looks like $ arp Address HWtype HWaddress Flags Mask Iface 205.29.245.2 ether 00:19:e7:15:cf:c5 C eth0 192.168.36.20 ether 00:00:00:00:00:00 C tap0 192.168.36.20 * MP * 13:21:07.636853 arp who-has 192.168.36.20 tell 192.168.36.1 13:21:07.637071 arp reply 192.168.36.20 is-at 00:00:00:00:00:00 That 00:00:00:00:00:00 is odd but it doesn't appear to cause trouble. I am using Linux. FreeBSD already has this (pre klh10i) and maybe Solaris too. 21-Mar-2009 16:48:40-PDT,3868;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 16:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.200]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 16:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ool-45720130.dyn.optonline.net [69.114.1.48]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0KGV00KOMQP542J0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:31:51 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis Subject: Re: question about KLH10... In-reply-to: <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> To: Chris Smith Cc: Tops-20 Wizards , Mark Crispin Message-id: <49C578E7.6080108@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) ReSent-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 16:46:54 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > > Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so TOPS-20 has a > > dedicated card, and it will work fine. > It is not necessary to add another ethernet card. Perhaps not in all cases. I wasn't sure if the KLH10 changes were only to make shared IP work. If so, then I can think of some reasons why you might want a dedicated Ethernet interface. I do not have the most up to date information on this, but I was never able to get LAT to work until I used a seperate Ethernet card for KLH10. That may have changed. Has it? Linux itself will run LAT. LAT is useful if you trash your IP free space on the 20, because you can still get in to do stuff. I have managed to do this while developing FTP. LAT is useful for regression testing. You can also connect physical terminals into LAT boxes (there are new boxes you can get, not the old ones). All my local access (in the house) is via LAT and my ACJ has been modified to be aware of this. I can not recall exactly about DECnet, but I thought that earlier versions wanted to program the MAC address on the NI. That could make things difficult. I have no other information on Tops-20 based DECnet, but I recall that MRC was looking at it at one point. The galant individual who chooses to implement IP6 on the 20 will undoubtedly want a seperate Ethernet card. Ditto IPX and NetBUEI (Heh) Financially, I have seen name brand PCI based Ethernet cards (the Linksys PLNE100TX, for example) selling for as low as $15. Others for less than $12. If you don't have a free PCI slot (say you're on a laptop), I have seen USB 2.0 based Ethernet adaptors going for less than $20. PCMCIA Ethernet adaptors for under $25. So why WOULDN'T you want to use an extra adaptor? Other than having a full switch (or hub), I don't see any reason for not throwing in an adaptor for KLH10. Running on a Palm or something like that? Just wondering ... The extra things a seperate adaptor gets you may come in handy (or be interesting or fun to play with). Certainly it will not break any but the most strapped piggy bank. 21-Mar-2009 23:18:49-PDT,4948;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 23:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail-gx0-f159.google.com ([209.85.217.159]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:35:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3so4181349gxk.16 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:35:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4/qVn+JP48ZiEH0z1XoZeHGzI0YBZi7cuj7eiv9ujF4=; b=DAXYRyWPePmgiO2Cj9GkEyFMViqMDVzDKj10YFPTl+HW2nU+DjUNRW7P0r9QTTEaLK rOIuALmdkTrY60snqnh1TdRnEiGyn3Vh/Kyh1WcuodpI1juulLGWnQIoDR+rSI+po4id FNZ29a2pZWdMe6NWCk/mzfF6WTehW/hQRceoE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q//RipTFEiciuIOjI/YrxoYHK6L71AuiNVDU+1JalvRvs1IhsH1tLpCJMSz1DOh2gc 3KZNMh5ZVFGj1kXMOEDoZEkYGqyzV42K9q/xhfbdOXaHpFEDT8wPC3CFLv/6bC/uqo1i 9dbYtrzIIkW6+4TW9e4rFCI3n6r4lvzb5meqc= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.151.101.20 with SMTP id d20mr9054050ybm.122.1237685704307; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:35:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49C578E7.6080108@optonline.net> References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> <49C578E7.6080108@optonline.net> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:35:04 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90903211835g6eb03060p4ec216f6df9eb229@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: question about KLH10... From: Chris Smith To: Thomas DeBellis Cc: Tops-20 Wizards , Mark Crispin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 23:17:00 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > I wasn't sure if the KLH10 changes were > only to make shared IP work. If so, then I can think of some reasons > why you might want a dedicated Ethernet interface. No, it provides a dedicated interface. See /usr/src/linux/Documentation/networking/tuntap.txt. > Financially, I have seen name brand PCI based Ethernet cards (the > Linksys PLNE100TX, for example) selling for as low as $15. Others for > less than $12. If you don't have a free PCI slot (say you're on a > laptop), I have seen USB 2.0 based Ethernet adaptors going for less > than $20. PCMCIA Ethernet adaptors for under $25. > > I do not have the most up to date information on this, but I was never > able to get LAT to work until I used a seperate Ethernet card for > KLH10. That may have changed. Has it? It proably hasn't changed but it's not the dedic=false case. LAT would probably work. Certainly tops-20 emits some kind of LAT announcement. I don't know how to connect to it. > So why WOULDN'T you want to use an extra adaptor? Well, it's software, it won't wear out. You don't have to leave your chair and drive to Fry's (1000 miles away). And it is preposterous for a computer to be unable to send itself datagrams. Me, I have tried the extra ethernet card. Two cables from computer to hub, different IP addresses, so it could send from one to the other. Plugged in the cable, smelled smoke, unplugged the cable. Motherboard eth0 is toast. And when I plugged anything at all into that port, smell of blue smoke. Years later I have a nice new motherboard with working eth's and no inclination at all to plug in two cables to a single hub. > Other than having a full switch (or hub), I don't see any reason for > not throwing in an adaptor for KLH10. Running on a Palm or something > like that? Just wondering ... I too am wondering ... With klh10 i, tops-20 FTP from ftp.kernel.org turns in 110 kilobaud. With Linux, same machine, linux ftp turns in 1219 kilobaud -- 10x better. With klh10 i, tops-20 FTP from local Linux turns in 1605 kilobaud. With Linux, same machine, ftp from itself turns in 5520 kilobaud. This seems to be more or less cpu bound so this is reasonable. But what's up with TCP performance to remote hosts? And while I'm wondering ... Where is PCL? I can't find any documentation, and the Panda EXEC does not seem to have it. 21-Mar-2009 23:22:07-PDT,1836;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 23:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2009 23:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 23:20:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Chris Smith cc: Thomas DeBellis , Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: question about KLH10... In-Reply-To: <1a6457e90903211835g6eb03060p4ec216f6df9eb229@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> <49C578E7.6080108@optonline.net> <1a6457e90903211835g6eb03060p4ec216f6df9eb229@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 23:20:33 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Chris Smith wrote: > Where is PCL? I can't find any documentation, and the Panda EXEC > does not seem to have it. Huh? The Panda EXEC most certainly has PCL. Did you try the DECLARE command? -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 22-Mar-2009 08:30:38-PDT,2783;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:28:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.200]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 07:20:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ool-45720130.dyn.optonline.net [69.114.1.48]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0KGW00FEHVU8GJ30@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 10:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 10:20:32 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis Subject: Re: question about KLH10... In-reply-to: <1a6457e90903211831p60307a60j681a064e019c04e1@mail.gmail.com> To: Chris Smith Cc: Tops-20 Wizards Message-id: <49C64930.5080102@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> <49C578E7.6080108@optonline.net> <1a6457e90903211831p60307a60j681a064e019c04e1@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:28:03 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Where is PCL? I can't find any documentation, the Panda EXEC > does not seem to have it. PCL is definitely there and working. I use it all the time. However, older PANDA distributions (circa 2002) do not appear to have PCL documentation. The files that I have are called PCL.TXT and PCLREF.DOC. I put them in PS:, but I do not know where they would normally go. I think we may have had them in PS: at Columbia. I'm not implying that there ever was anything 'abnormal' about PCL. I mean I don't know if PCL ever made it into the standard DEC distribution for 7.0. I don't recall that it was in 6.0; at least at Columbia, I'm pretty sure that we had to put it in. If Mark has these files in the latest PANDA distribution, then check there. If not, I will be happy to supply these you off-list and follow up with Mark as to whether these should be considered for inclusion in future releases. 22-Mar-2009 08:56:21-PDT,3341;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.46.156]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:48:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so1001165ywm.52 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:48:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=aPJYpNaZNHwoOxzMw+ZMgXliIFUumsO4Q4UB6c1VDHk=; b=gP9eCKgnoosbX044anY4oF7J72msLrAQeGXqMvDRlcGwgWrIHN7+pNMK4O/oAZrkZ+ kP5UfAHby0Jqii0m+sFxmtZgxKXTsIqMUWAbdPiywv7jhUttV10Qi70XN+lcE8KQFM8Y jUXWfiXMLnelmUq8Xd+jmrpgXi9aoOOOMZgUE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tTeiKTbcNwI2wb3M8k43GaYp5al8FGNwE5WSUXJYY24CGAT5a0z43lomEBHVrn48B7 tm9F1LuADs5OBEl6SQOOH7++OmVdLLN1QihhsjyvBj15/ptBtugeWDQ+byG5WUMwp0A5 +3u8nsXJgbSnDsQRzZpqvjQrkyBn+amgvQ5Vw= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.150.95.15 with SMTP id s15mr10962516ybb.138.1237736931168; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:48:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49C64930.5080102@optonline.net> References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> <49C578E7.6080108@optonline.net> <1a6457e90903211831p60307a60j681a064e019c04e1@mail.gmail.com> <49C64930.5080102@optonline.net> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 09:48:51 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90903220848x1226212dkf74d3e6377ace5bf@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: question about KLH10... From: Chris Smith To: Thomas DeBellis , Mark Crispin Cc: Tops-20 Wizards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 08:54:42 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Huh? The Panda EXEC most certainly has PCL. Did you try the DECLARE com= mand? Yes, it's there. Thanks. > I'm not implying that there ever was anything 'abnormal' about PCL. =A0I > mean I don't know if PCL ever made it into the standard DEC > distribution for 7.0. =A0I don't recall that it was in 6.0; at least at > Columbia, I'm pretty sure that we had to put it in. There's a that had PCL and MIC sources and binaries (PCL-EXEC.EXE) and perhaps documentation? Panda has COMMAND-EDITOR-NOTES.TXT there which is great. I had been just retyping mistakes completely. > I will be happy to supply these you off-list Thanks! 22-Mar-2009 11:49:07-PDT,4956;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:47:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from a.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.16.245]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from Amiga.local (64-142-29-114.dsl.static.sonic.net [64.142.29.114]) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n2MIR4qW009524; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:27:04 -0700 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:27:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Wright X-Sender: fw@Amiga.local Reply-To: Fred Wright To: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: question about KLH10... In-Reply-To: <1a6457e90903211835g6eb03060p4ec216f6df9eb229@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:47:22 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Chris Smith wrote: > > Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so TOPS-20 > > has a dedicated card, and it will work fine. > > It is not necessary to add another ethernet card. It *may* not be necessary, depending on what you're trying to do. :-) [...] > Enable masquerading if you don't already -- > (Here eth0 is your default gateway) > > # echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward > # iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE That depends on whether you want to share the IP or not. For maximum flexiblity, *not* using NAT allows the virtual 10 to have its own IP address. But it would still need to be on its own subnet, and other machines on the LAN would need to understand the routing (though just having the default gateway understand it is usually sufficient, and will typically use ICMP Redirect to supply routing information to other hosts). [...] > You need to run kn10-kl as root, not just setuid dpni20 as before. Why? Is anything outside dpni20 making network calls? [...] > I am using Linux. FreeBSD already has this (pre klh10i) and maybe > Solaris too. Though the "iptables" references would need to be different on non-Linux platforms. Disclaimer: I haven't actually done this myself with KLH10, but I wrote the code and documentation to do almost exactly the same thing for Macs emulated on Amigas. On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Chris Smith wrote: > > I wasn't sure if the KLH10 changes were > > only to make shared IP work. If so, then I can think of some reasons > > why you might want a dedicated Ethernet interface. > > No, it provides a dedicated interface. > See /usr/src/linux/Documentation/networking/tuntap.txt. It provides a dedicated *virtual* interface, and relies on the host to route traffic to and from the physical interface. [...] > > I do not have the most up to date information on this, but I was never > > able to get LAT to work until I used a seperate Ethernet card for > > KLH10. That may have changed. Has it? > > It proably hasn't changed but it's not the dedic=false case. > LAT would probably work. Certainly tops-20 emits some kind > of LAT announcement. I don't know how to connect to it. For a LAT client running on the host, I don't see why it wouldn't work. But no other machine will be able to make LAT connection, because LAT isn't an IP-based protocol, and hence isn't routable via the IP routing code (actually, LAT was never designed to be routable at all). Ditto for DECnet. Getting non-IP protocols through from the outside would require either bridging, or additional protocol-specific routing. [...] > Me, I have tried the extra ethernet card. Two cables from computer > to hub, different IP addresses, so it could send from one to the > other. Plugged in the cable, smelled smoke, unplugged the cable. > Motherboard eth0 is toast. And when I plugged anything at all > into that port, smell of blue smoke. There is absolutely no way in hell that your broken hardware was specifically the consequence of plugging two Ethernet cables from the same machine into the same hub. In fact, electrically, that's an easier case than cables from *different* computers, since they won't have different ground references (which is why Ethernet is transformer-coupled). Ethernet ports are required to withstand common-mode components of at least 500V to meet the spec. You weren't by any chance trying to connect two things supplying Power over Ethernet with different opinions of the voltage, were you? [...] Fred Wright 22-Mar-2009 12:04:47-PDT,2667;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:03:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:59:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Fred Wright cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: question about KLH10... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:03:11 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sun, 22 Mar 2009, Fred Wright wrote: >> You need to run kn10-kl as root, not just setuid dpni20 as before. > Why? Is anything outside dpni20 making network calls? AFAIK, the only reason to run kn10-kl as root (setuid root) is so that it can lock itself into memory for better performance. dpni20 is the thing that really needs root. > It provides a dedicated *virtual* interface, and relies on the host to > route traffic to and from the physical interface. Hence my preference to use a dedicated physical interface. Having used both modes, I will never use a virtual interface if I have a choice. > For a LAT client running on the host, I don't see why it wouldn't > work. But no other machine will be able to make LAT connection, because > LAT isn't an IP-based protocol, and hence isn't routable via the IP > routing code (actually, LAT was never designed to be routable at all). > Ditto for DECnet. That explains why I never got DECnet working with a virtual interface. > There is absolutely no way in hell that your broken hardware was > specifically the consequence of plugging two Ethernet cables from the same > machine into the same hub. I too had to wonder about that. It made no sense to me, especially as that is how I have Meimei+Lingling configured. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 22-Mar-2009 16:55:08-PDT,5576;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:53:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.157]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:54:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 6so1031015yxn.52 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2hZKvawwALz0WH1uQg3NWwdz7hpZ8vkDZTH5KgaI5xQ=; b=bSrEp0GxdZDZNbMRAloW52cHyi8P+dkZL4o04wgZhjxUJogq2QgTFFarptGeX0cUpt jyh7DofYY6sEjlw43LjCzD4zc10i1QSN+HFGTNGZHaKCeZWQle/BxMASSGwMSvvHqykK mINn1VKqSzs3wKE/CRqX4Cipdm33LE4IOxdUo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LS6IT3nYxo3O8o2rQ0YqVxr8JQ4kFUFUv1/HtiOmtfydWXLAx3+IE1klnHB2uZ4KNm hNosHPf1ZfzV4j3cZpffoIaOgcZmlCvCOmfB2EavSOGbnERtv59xIN62JS357ouEYTOe bx0d+yvGWhk07IU/KjA7etPRsmoAtQucPsrBY= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.150.157.17 with SMTP id f17mr11303020ybe.191.1237751674161; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1a6457e90903211835g6eb03060p4ec216f6df9eb229@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:54:34 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90903221254y71fbead9q8cd4cac223e7306d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: question about KLH10... From: Chris Smith To: Tops-20 Wizards , Fred Wright Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:53:01 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) >> Enable masquerading if you don't already -- >> (Here eth0 is your default gateway) >> >> # echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward >> # iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE > > That depends on whether you want to share the IP or not. For maximum > flexiblity, *not* using NAT allows the virtual 10 to have its own IP > address. But it would still need to be on its own subnet, and other > machines on the LAN would need to understand the routing (though just > having the default gateway understand it is usually sufficient, and will > typically use ICMP Redirect to supply routing information to other hosts). The NAT is to get out of the house. I only have one IP address. If I had several, the situation with tap0 would be identical to eth0. It has the address you give it. >> You need to run kn10-kl as root, not just setuid dpni20 as before. > > Why? Is anything outside dpni20 making network calls? dpni20 uses privileged system() calls to set up the tunnel. They don't get run as root. setreuid() fixes that and there are no more error messages, but KNILDR loading the microcode fails. Don't know why. >> No, it provides a dedicated interface. >> See /usr/src/linux/Documentation/networking/tuntap.txt. > > It provides a dedicated *virtual* interface, and relies on the host to > route traffic to and from the physical interface. I'm not sure if I understand. eth0 gets and sends ethernet frames to the upper levels. tap0 gets and sends ethernet frames to the upper levels. There is no difference. At the very lowest level, where eth0 has a low-level driver that does I/O instructions, tap0 has a low-level driver that operates read() and write() in dpni20. dpni20 sees ethernet frames indistinguishable from hardware ones. > Getting non-IP protocols through from the outside would require either > bridging, or additional protocol-specific routing. KVM does the following, which should work for dpni20, but it does not: Make a bridge br0 address 10.0.0.1. Make a tunnel tap0 IP address 0.0.0.0 promiscuous. Add tap0 to br0. Tell klh10h dedic=true ifc=tap0. Linux will route to and from br0. Doesn't work. And it's off topic to boot, sorry, it wouldn't help route Decnet either. > There is absolutely no way in hell that your broken hardware was > specifically the consequence of plugging two Ethernet cables from the same > machine into the same hub. In fact, electrically, that's an easier case > than cables from *different* computers, since they won't have different > ground references (which is why Ethernet is transformer-coupled). > Ethernet ports are required to withstand common-mode components of at > least 500V to meet the spec. > > You weren't by any chance trying to connect two things supplying Power > over Ethernet with different opinions of the voltage, were you? One power-over-ethernet device, to my wireless antenna. I actually had the problem twice, the other was a fried ethernet card. I don't remember the details. But it was sufficiently convincing at the time. 22-Mar-2009 16:56:34-PDT,3067;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:53:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.46.158]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:03:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so1032094ywm.52 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:03:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HOfjRpi1EkK4B1K1iSvP1AD4fgmZ/8RKJG09sk/4Q10=; b=ns78s+9Imw6uMS0iPf/XnknyNn9axfJs1K70ImYqaD33jnI8vzaVaC2kWiUwBl6Riw zYKt8Qygd1HDdl/yZwDRAUTHaUev4iwTDObDKa7H8jFldfYTtPDJ2Di0VKuJ+524Pxul 07S0j3ApeXauFGJkKiwQJmduEEBvg0M6Z9OY8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tnuxDiw13YOulyA70gwcufbk4UyI9hiVJse6mwsZoc24tFk/7oorHhN8eSolH5jkeF ZycuBrc8A5cgaaQXEW+b3DWgOk9xrdc581mS3EZAe4Ig/WS+FNVF14CmkV9Ac1mWBoZB JqVoSMi+4pFmCEFuY/wKy0BQsytL/gTd39ihM= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.151.154.8 with SMTP id g8mr11302256ybo.208.1237752206331; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:03:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:03:26 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90903221303w247dd1aes7be1fabd8e67b146@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: question about KLH10... From: Chris Smith To: Mark Crispin Cc: Fred Wright , Tops-20 Wizards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:53:18 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) >> For a LAT client running on the host, I don't see why it wouldn't >> work. =A0But no other machine will be able to make LAT connection, becau= se >> LAT isn't an IP-based protocol, and hence isn't routable via the IP >> routing code (actually, LAT was never designed to be routable at all). >> Ditto for DECnet. > > That explains why I never got DECnet working with a virtual interface. What do you mean by virtual interface? If traffic on its subnet has Decnet frames, or Chaosnet frames, dpni20 will see them. I assume tops-20 will then toss them. 22-Mar-2009 16:58:00-PDT,3337;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:54:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.198]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:06:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ool-45720130.dyn.optonline.net [69.114.1.48]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0KGX006A7K6BNVJ0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:06:10 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis Subject: Re: question about KLH10... In-reply-to: <1a6457e90903211835g6eb03060p4ec216f6df9eb229@mail.gmail.com> To: Chris Smith Cc: Tops-20 Wizards Message-id: <49C6C462.9030303@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> <49C578E7.6080108@optonline.net> <1a6457e90903211835g6eb03060p4ec216f6df9eb229@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:53:56 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Me, I have tried the extra ethernet card. Two cables from computer > to hub, different IP addresses, so it could send from one to the > other. Plugged in the cable, smelled smoke, unplugged the cable. > Motherboard eth0 is toast. And when I plugged anything at all into > that port, smell of blue smoke. > Years later I have a nice new motherboard with working eth's and no > inclination at all to plug in two cables to a single hub. The true hacker does not let mere electricity stand in the way of developing winning software. I am the author of FAIS, the specialized sound storage system for the ProDisk-464, a professional audio editing system of a few years back. We had just completed our first production run of boards from manufacturing and I got stuck using the wirewrap development system to chase down a bug in the master mode interrupt dismissal logic. It had been a long night and I was getting cranky. The audio input board was a little noisy, so I got annoyed and reached in with a screwdriver to give a pot a little tweak. And dropped it right into the power supply on top of some sort of a capacitor. BLAMMO!! I blew myself back maybe about six feet right on my fanny. This was the first experimental evidence that I ever had which confirmed that direct application of +12 volage at high amperage is superior to caffeine for treating drowsiness. But I found the bug. Embrace electrons. Plug in the second Ethernet adaptor. 22-Mar-2009 18:26:59-PDT,2783;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:25:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.154]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 6so1064002yxn.52 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:10:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fuz2SsHLKIwUSbSbGyK0GUjzu54iP4xPC3CoBKv/zPM=; b=nfIlSz+juRDF4YxxbI9axJlD4ufpVPqGtnscfxyih22sU5bfWzrfHq4hpqIqZSvJjm fuwpmf36cXzH5/o5IDRXyCaAfsI1+nH1/AVvdAlijTOSiQx5+uLGT5TZLio92Hztmqjx KZl1XHTCfgFxWkVBKL6TOrWDpP/cOI89yYBu4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jXr7Jd+/HklMoiqv6hmvK0z794Y8G31oELGvvL0YcyJxbTW8J45jLPAZ7N0f4S3KMJ oH1AnRMannwRg4dU9PWl5dneI9ow+AtgkDE5n5CAmfcKrDzWFuImjQrVu4x/YjEgP0zi FUstFRYXkwa8hMOHtWikHf7chy10IzVyBAwwU= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.151.84.1 with SMTP id m1mr11066464ybl.100.1237767008694; Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:10:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49C6C462.9030303@optonline.net> References: <14392775137.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <1a6457e90903211219x7a75136am5563bef8425c2233@mail.gmail.com> <49C578E7.6080108@optonline.net> <1a6457e90903211835g6eb03060p4ec216f6df9eb229@mail.gmail.com> <49C6C462.9030303@optonline.net> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:10:08 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90903221710s8788cabu19a54de63790f9a3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: question about KLH10... From: Chris Smith To: Thomas DeBellis Cc: Tops-20 Wizards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:25:18 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: question about KLH10... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Embrace electrons. Plug in the second Ethernet adaptor. LOL. Okay. No sparks, no smoke. I won't be using it, but it looks like it would work fine. 24-Mar-2009 12:10:30-PDT,2517;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:51:59 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: klt20 without an additional ethernet hardware... To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14395570766.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:08:00 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: klt20 without an additional ethernet hardware... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I was able to get klh to run on my linux box using tap0, tap1, etc... I am able to ftp and telnet to sites which support that. the connections say I am coming from my linux box. I have something you need to do as root to access teh taps. echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE then you need to boot the MMCM changes to panda-dist, which will let you connect to the linux box as if it was its own. klt20.ini also has to be changed to setup your non-internet internet addresses, and you need to do that for the klh20 files as well. (internet.addresses, internet.gateways, and hosts.txt as well as resolv.config in domain:) Here's a copy of klt20.ini: c cq; Define basic device config - one DTE, one disk, one tape devdef dte0 200 dte master devdef rh0 540 rh20 devdef rh1 544 rh20 devdef dsk0 rh0.0 rp type=rp07 format=dbd9 devdef mta0 rh1.0 tm03 type=tu45 ; Set Ethernet address ;devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ipaddr=192.168.50.100 tunaddr=192.168.50.33 ; cks: matches intenet.address etc devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ipaddr=192.168.36.20 tunaddr=192.168.36.1 ; Define the idle device on 700 devdef idler 700 host ; Set switch register set sw=254200,,147 ; Set console lights I/O base register ;Uncomment the following line if you have a Panda display. ;lights 378 ; Load disk bootstrap directly load boot.sav ; Ready to GO let me and chris smith know if anything breaks. DOn't forget to use the MMCM changes when doing this. ------- 24-Mar-2009 12:11:57-PDT,1056;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:35:16 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: one more thing.. To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14395578645.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:08:12 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: one more thing.. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) You can't do incoming ftp/telnet/finger/mail from the sites I have up. You probably need another ethernet interface to do that. just wanted you guys to know.. ------- 24-Mar-2009 12:13:25-PDT,1796;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.199]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:37:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [24.46.26.137] (ool-182e1a89.dyn.optonline.net [24.46.26.137]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0KH000CNRX22E810@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:37:07 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis Subject: (Extraordinary) minor comment error for OT%FDY in MONSYM.MAC To: Tops-20 Wizards Message-id: <49C92853.5060101@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) ReSent-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:08:38 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: (Extraordinary) minor comment error for OT%FDY in MONSYM.MAC ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I just noticed the following line in my MONSYM. OT%FDY==:1B2 ;OUTPUT NUMERIC MONTH That's wrong, it should be: OT%FDY==:1B2 ;OUTPUT DAY OF WEEK IN FULL The bit appears to be defined properly (I checked DATIME.MAC) and it is documented properly in JSYS_REFERENCE. 24-Mar-2009 14:09:33-PDT,2895;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.153]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 6so1573548yxn.52 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:53:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/upMNgKNjy9BVkadmBEqBGKMxG623gwqSojJHwwNnmc=; b=IQ3d66aQZBjWtfaP5DYSTfNZD2GI8dFpQnw0mO3NWuc526CQw19NfdR2aec8qPyvJq tWfAEvV8S3zUK1VRBmVHnTQrEbSV22EICok0WGVzxh1psdi2JyvgbqRbn+dVvkLG86lO mQP1CiJctVlK6yAO63+wQ0KxwSJgbBkhzeSWA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OtT4vplLx5Ep4F6ZxjLVUKgQZ3zGQw/Dg9wYt3UkSJkxT9UUrwH0dR+WeFNU578hlQ ViJJM6tKybN2/VjT87h10yiJImjqAIpIS+gNUHLLPp5pg6AnoJdMaA1wsbUlsgscqG2H 6FUfnm4E3o3/uNN9KedVmZwx2iqSzbF09Ra8o= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.150.202.8 with SMTP id z8mr15646934ybf.134.1237928023116; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:53:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <14395578645.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> References: <14395578645.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:53:43 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90903241353g545fa8abh664b41597d32f07b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: one more thing.. From: Chris Smith To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" Cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:07:46 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: one more thing.. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Well you can't do incoming anything to a private (192.168.0.0) address. If you down your internet gateway, and give that IP address to dpni20 (by editing klt20.ini) you should be able to telnet from outside to that. (Linux would be off the air while this is going on) On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > You can't do incoming ftp/telnet/finger/mail from the sites > I have up. You probably need another ethernet interface to do that. > > just wanted you guys to know.. 24-Mar-2009 16:22:00-PDT,1474;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:20:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mass-toolpike.mit.edu ([18.9.64.17]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:15:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: (from jsol@localhost) by mass-toolpike.mit.edu (8.12.9.20060308) id n2OMMRhN000500; Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200903242222.n2OMMRhN000500@mass-toolpike.mit.edu> From: "Jonathan A. Solomon" To: xcsmith@gmail.com CC: TOPS-20 Distribution:;TOPS-20 Distribution:;@MIT.EDU, tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM In-reply-to: <1a6457e90903241353g545fa8abh664b41597d32f07b@mail.gmail.com> (message from Chris Smith on Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:53:43 -0600) Subject: Re: one more thing.. References: <14395578645.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <1a6457e90903241353g545fa8abh664b41597d32f07b@mail.gmail.com> ReSent-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:19:54 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: one more thing.. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) ok. that's fine. I won't bother, I like the way things are going now. thanx again for your time and effort. --jsol 29-Mar-2009 08:33:17-PDT,1987;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Mar 2009 08:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Mar 2009 06:22:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n2TDMcKd017599 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 2009 09:22:39 -0400 Message-ID: <49CF761D.3020009@acedsl.com> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 09:22:37 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: GJ%FOU,GJ%NEW,GJ%NEW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 08:31:16 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: GJ%FOU,GJ%NEW,GJ%NEW ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) What does it mean to specify both GJ%FOU and GJ%OLD in the same GTJFN% call? The first bit means that the given file specification is assigned the next higher generation number. GJ%OLD means that file specification given must refer to an existing file. So I thought that GJ%FOU would normally only be used with GJ%NEW. What does specifying that the next highest generation number is to be associated with an old file? Only succeed with a new file if there is an existing old file? Only do the work if somebody has already created the file? If so, that's pretty cool. But I don't recall ever using it. I just happened to notice it in the PANDA ACJ. 30-Mar-2009 14:44:06-PDT,1142;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:41:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:24:53 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: bugfix for the panda exec To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14397182386.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: bugfix for the panda exec ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I made a change to the panda exec to abbreviated commands for @INFORMATION. The bug was that the not-logged-in exec commands didn't abbreviate the @INFORMATION commands. The files are *.mac on xkleten.paulallen.com... ------- 30-Mar-2009 14:55:11-PDT,1529;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:53:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:44:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec In-Reply-To: <14397182386.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14397182386.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:53:36 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Mon, 30 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > The bug was that the not-logged-in exec commands didn't abbreviate > the @INFORMATION commands. I have no idea what you are talking about. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 30-Mar-2009 15:11:15-PDT,1448;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:09:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:02:42 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec To: MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM cc: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <14397189269.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:09:40 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) do @info ? and see the entries which require login.. they usually say "?login please". The normal @? is only a limited number of commands, just what can be done from not-logged in. @info ? had a bunch of entries which aren't appropriate for not-logged-in, and I removed them from not-logged-in commands doing what the XKL exec does already. if you are still confused, let me know and I will see what I can do. --jsol ------- 30-Mar-2009 15:18:42-PDT,1840;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:14:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec In-Reply-To: <14397189269.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14397189269.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:17:07 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Mon, 30 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > @info ? had a bunch of entries which aren't appropriate for > not-logged-in, and I removed them from not-logged-in commands > doing what the XKL exec does already. So it's not a bug, but rather a feature that's in the XKL EXEC that you think should be in other EXECs. Please categorize feature suggestions separately from bugs; and please avoid vague comments like "not-logged-in exec commands didn't abbreviate the @INFORMATION commands". -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 30-Mar-2009 15:30:02-PDT,1105;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:28:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:25:51 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec To: MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM cc: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <14397193486.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:28:27 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) ok. you're right. I think the job was not completed when @? was implemented. --jsol ------- 30-Mar-2009 17:55:57-PDT,2585;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:54:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail-gx0-f161.google.com ([209.85.217.161]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:41:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by gxk5 with SMTP id 5so4886446gxk.16 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:41:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=A1SdraWKmaBWHDfkFAN5aNl/UKIXA5xlDZUEl42M1b0=; b=X8XWxuXqEwjpq5PaHS+A9+nx1oZL9hqjkcUk1XdoWGc+6e/H/3+vyDKQ+JplBaenQ5 aIEQxGj1+Hxq6ec7YmBk2uMaaUT6P7OIJiL5Fq9nrPHd45n8O4EGJcwRDewVBGOmdg4l muno4RXEjintT7oRXo/qNJwP//uGa4TgYO9/8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HC6/qog43gG8AaY8Ap2KXGduO235HrSHuoatbCD2BpjDWcHGdBZYsPz5RZzrsb2LXh dYogynevmO5q9Nm4wnIo9FkoopxT8m8LBs8lnstX2Rc4a8npYhCrxie4mxv6uHP9iVKR MHhwWV1onM9UaqKhpDa7lFN+YcQ43mBgUKf3g= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.150.156.9 with SMTP id d9mr11516007ybe.182.1238460093209; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:41:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49CF761D.3020009@acedsl.com> References: <49CF761D.3020009@acedsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:41:33 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90903301741p27d98d69p577fd398f40e6083@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: GJ%FOU,GJ%NEW,GJ%NEW From: Chris Smith To: Thomas DeBellis Cc: Tops-20 Wizards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:53:56 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: GJ%FOU,GJ%NEW,GJ%NEW ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Well, here are some experiments. It's a little weird. @sddt DDT 1[ 0 GJ%SHT+GJ%FOU+GJ%OLD+GJ%MSG+GJ%FNS 2[ 0 .PRIIN,,.PRIOU Ok, GTJFN : login.cMD.17 !New generation! GJ%FOU wins. Or: login.cmd.17<> No dice when you type it 30-Mar-2009 19:11:39-PDT,6463;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:10:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.197]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:05:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ool-45720130.dyn.optonline.net [69.114.1.48]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0KHC0054DLTLHE51@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:05:44 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis Subject: Shutdown Messages To: Tops-20 Wizards Message-id: <49D17A78.2020309@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) ReSent-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:09:53 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Shutdown Messages ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Symptom: ======== For shutdowns that are set VERY close to the present time (about five minutes or less in the future), the EXEC appears to display incorrect results. SYSTAT SYSTEM will display the downtime, but INFORMATION DOWNTIME does not. Since users may become anxious about the impending loss of service, it makes sense to ensure that they get consistent information. Example: ======== !^ECEASE +00:04:00 +1:00:00 TOMMYT Shut down scheduled for 30-Mar-2009 20:39:55 [Confirm] Reason: None !SYSTAT SYSTEM Mon 30-Mar-2009 20:36:06 Up 356:07:50 5+7 Jobs Load av 0.02 0.03 0.05 No operator in attendance System is remedial The system will go down today at 20:39:55 until 21:35:56 for None !INFORMATION DOWN Shutdown Time: Up Again: 23-Mar-2029 11:02:00 11:10:00 Testing shutdown routines 27-Mar-2035 08:00:00 16:00:00 Major hardware upgrade 28-Mar-2036 16:00:00 29-May-2036 19:00:00 Preventive Maintainence Background: =========== For my last UP2LNG BUGHLT, my expected crash time was VERY early in the morning (2:41:36AM-EDT). I abruptly decided early in the evening that I didn't want to stay up that late and did the shutdown. I had system messages turned off my terminal, so I didn't see any message when I did the ^ECEASE. And INFORMATION DOWNTIME didn't show anything either... So I became Deeply Confused and started looking around MEXEC after the reload. Analysis: ========= The problem isn't with the EXEC, but rather it is an interaction between a program that it invokes called MHALT and the Access Control Job (ACJ) which implements queued shutdowns. MHALT only reads the shutdown queue; it does not check the running monitor. There are currently at least two situations in which a shutdown can be in effect, but not in the queue file. If a shutdown is set in the VERY near future, the ACJ will not queue it. Another situation is a system which is not currently running an ACJ. In these cases, the only way to get this information is to use GETAB% (this is for normal users, so we'll leave PEEK% and XPEEK% out of the discussion). Cure: ===== Insert code into MHALT to do the GETAB%. Since MHALT is small and quite straightforward, this is a relatively simple task: Shutdown Time: Up Again: Reason: (Today) 8:39:55PM-EDT 9:35:56PM-EDT None Fri 23-Mar-2029 11:02:00AM-EDT 11:10:00AM-EDT Testing shutdown routines Tue 27-Mar-2035 8:00:00AM-EDT 4:00:00PM-EDT Major hardware upgrade Fri 28-Mar-2036 4:00:00PM-EDT Thu 29-May-2036 7:00:00PM-EDT Preventive Maintainence %Current active shutdown is NOT queued Additional: =========== In fact, I didn't fix Mark's venerable program. I completely rewrote it from scratch and addressed some other issues, all of which can rightfully be seen as nearly hopelessly irrelevant or mere cutenesses. I'm suffering from a lot of second system effect these days... For example, the new program EMHALT is an extended mode program which is CLEARLY not required. 1) GETAB% for active unqueued downtimes 2) Code to highlight shutdowns that are for today 3) Code to handle formatting issues for shutdowns that are after 27-Sep-2217 20:00:00 (a truely impending problem...) 4) Different formating for terminals with limited lines or more suitable for columnar cut and pastes. 5) Code the avoid opening the queue file altogether (via REENTER) 6) Handle a CONTINUE by regetting information 7) Code to check for inconsistencies in the queue file (none of which can happen during normal ACJ operation): a) Out of Order shutdown queue times b) Uptimes which are BEFORE shutdown times c) Uptimes and/or downtimes which are before the current time of day (if it is set) d) Systems with no active down time that still have downtimes in the queue file e) Systems with active shutdowns that are after queued shutdowns f) Queue files with holes in them g) Inconsistently formatted shutdown (non-integral) blocks in the shutdown queue file h) A (perhaps somewhat) lessened chance of getting inconsistent information: the shutdown queue file is PMAP%ed with PM%PLD, XBLT'ed and then closed i) Systems with odd GETAB% tables (which can happen if you are doing HSYS% development as I did a few years ago) 8) Properly display program version information via PDV's, since the third slot in the entry vector is used for non-version related information. Again, I'm not critiquing Mark's work at all. MHALT has obviously worked fine for years and little or none of this stuff is of any overwhelming importance. I'll follow up with him seperately to see if EMHALT might become part of the PANDA canon. 7-Apr-2009 20:10:24-PDT,1993;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:08:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 19:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FEDB34804 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:49:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 82FB62429C; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:49:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 Message-Id: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:49:09 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:08:22 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) The original release of KLH10 (at http://klh-10.trailing-edge.com) built very nicely on Mac OS X. However, I'd really like to have the fixes in Mark's updated version (and probably MMcM's, as well). Problem is, the dvlites.c source includes a file that does not exist on Mac OS X--or at least, not on the PowerPC versions. What is this file, and why do I want it? Leaving that aside, there is also the issue of System V memory handling. I got some advice on this from an Apple developer in the 10.2 to 10.3 transition time frame which never worked. Has anyone else ever built KLH10 on a PowerPC Mac and had it work as well as on Linux or other Intel-centric operating systems? Rich 7-Apr-2009 20:15:02-PDT,2135;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Rich Alderson cc: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 In-Reply-To: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: References: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:24 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > Problem is, the dvlites.c source includes a file that does > not exist on Mac OS X--or at least, not on the PowerPC versions. What > is this file, and why do I want it? You must be trying to do a Linux build. For a PPC Mac, using the fbppc build. You'll probably also need to add "-Dregister=" to the compile flags in newer versions of gcc. > Leaving that aside, there is also the issue of System V memory handling. > I got some advice on this from an Apple developer in the 10.2 to 10.3 > transition time frame which never worked. Has anyone else ever built > KLH10 on a PowerPC Mac and had it work as well as on Linux or other > Intel-centric operating systems? I ran it for quite a while on a PPC Mac without issue. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 8-Apr-2009 08:09:53-PDT,2876;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:07:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:46:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A203C29410 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2009 02:46:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 6E2782429D; Wed, 8 Apr 2009 02:46:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com In-reply-to: (message from Mark Crispin on Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:01 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 References: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> Message-Id: <20090408064629.6E2782429D@panix5.panix.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 02:46:29 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:07:41 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:01 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mark Crispin > On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Problem is, the dvlites.c source includes a file that does >> not exist on Mac OS X--or at least, not on the PowerPC versions. What >> is this file, and why do I want it? > You must be trying to do a Linux build. For a PPC Mac, using the fbppc > build. You'll probably also need to add "-Dregister=" to the compile > flags in newer versions of gcc. Same error using fbppc. I was using a Makefile for PPC that I created for the old release, so I was willing to accept that something might need to be changed, but that's not it. What lives in asm/io.h? >> Leaving that aside, there is also the issue of System V memory handling. >> I got some advice on this from an Apple developer in the 10.2 to 10.3 >> transition time frame which never worked. Has anyone else ever built >> KLH10 on a PowerPC Mac and had it work as well as on Linux or other >> Intel-centric operating systems? > I ran it for quite a while on a PPC Mac without issue. I ran it for quite a while. I simply grew tired of the initialization complaint about insufficient shared memory. Thanks, Rich 8-Apr-2009 08:31:42-PDT,5533;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:30:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Rich Alderson cc: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 In-Reply-To: <20090408064629.6E2782429D@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: References: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> <20090408064629.6E2782429D@panix5.panix.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1387370035-1239204344=:1866" ReSent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1387370035-1239204344=:1866 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > Same error using fbppc. Not on my system. The entire dvlites.c module is switched off under an #if conditional (the file is compiled, but there's nothing generated). Only the Linux makefile enables it. > I was using a Makefile for PPC that I created for the old release That's your problem! I'll bet that you hacked a Linux makefile. Attached is the proper fbppc Makefile. > What lives in asm/io.h? That contains the definitions for raw I/O (outb(), etc.) on Linux. The fact that you are getting there indicates to me that you have turned on the code for the Panda lights panel which is only supported on Linux. Nor is it reasonable to support the Panda lights panel on Mac OS X; it is a parallel port device. As far as I know no Mac hardware has ever had a parallel port. > I ran it for quite a while. I simply grew tired of the initialization > complaint about insufficient shared memory. Did you run it as root and/or setuid root? You get that message when klh10 isn't root; it'll run but won't be able to set up the shared memory fully. The dpni20 module must run as root, and the kn20-kl module should run as root. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors --0-1387370035-1239204344=:1866 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; name=Mk-fbppc.mk Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Mk-fbppc.mk IyBLTEgxMCBNYWtlZmlsZSBmb3IgRnJlZUJTRCBvbiBQUEMNCiMNCiMgIENv cHlyaWdodCCpIDIwMDEgS2VubmV0aCBMLiBIYXJyZW5zdGllbg0KIyAgQWxs IFJpZ2h0cyBSZXNlcnZlZA0KIw0KIyAgVGhpcyBmaWxlIGlzIHBhcnQgb2Yg dGhlIEtMSDEwIERpc3RyaWJ1dGlvbi4gIFVzZSwgbW9kaWZpY2F0aW9uLCBh bmQNCiMgIHJlLWRpc3RyaWJ1dGlvbiBpcyBwZXJtaXR0ZWQgc3ViamVjdCB0 byB0aGUgdGVybXMgaW4gdGhlIGZpbGUNCiMgIG5hbWVkICJMSUNFTlNFIiwg d2hpY2ggY29udGFpbnMgdGhlIGZ1bGwgdGV4dCBvZiB0aGUgbGVnYWwgbm90 aWNlcw0KIyAgYW5kIHNob3VsZCBhbHdheXMgYWNjb21wYW55IHRoaXMgRGlz dHJpYnV0aW9uLg0KIw0KIyAgVGhpcyBzb2Z0d2FyZSBpcyBwcm92aWRlZCAi QVMgSVMiIHdpdGggTk8gV0FSUkFOVFkgT0YgQU5ZIEtJTkQuDQojDQojICBU aGlzIG5vdGljZSAoaW5jbHVkaW5nIHRoZSBjb3B5cmlnaHQgYW5kIHdhcnJh bnR5IGRpc2NsYWltZXIpDQojICBtdXN0IGJlIGluY2x1ZGVkIGluIGFsbCBj b3BpZXMgb3IgZGVyaXZhdGlvbnMgb2YgdGhpcyBzb2Z0d2FyZS4NCiMNCiMj IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIw0KDQojIExvY2FsIGNvbmZpZyBzZXR1 cCwgZm9yIEJTRCAibWFrZSIhDQojCVJlY3Vyc2l2ZWx5IGludm9rZXMgbWFr ZSB3aXRoIHJpZ2h0IHBhcmFtcyBmb3IgbG9jYWwgcGxhdGZvcm0uDQoNCiMg QnVpbGQgZGVmaW5pdGlvbnMNClNSQyA9IC4uLy4uL3NyYw0KQ0ZMQUdTID0g LWMgLWczIC1PMyAtSS4gLUkkKFNSQykNCkNGTEFHU19MSU5UID0gLWFuc2kg LXBlZGFudGljIC1XYWxsIC1Xc2hhZG93IFwNCgkJLVdzdHJpY3QtcHJvdG90 eXBlcyAtV21pc3NpbmctcHJvdG90eXBlcyBcDQoJCS1XbWlzc2luZy1kZWNs YXJhdGlvbnMgLVdyZWR1bmRhbnQtZGVjbHMNCg0KIyBTb3VyY2UgZGVmaW5p dGlvbnMNCkNFTlZGTEFHUyA9IC1EQ0VOVl9DUFVfUFBDPTEgLURDRU5WX1NZ U19GUkVFQlNEPTEgLURDRU5WX0NQVUZfQklHRU5EPTENCg0KIyBBbnkgdGFy Z2V0IHdpdGggbm8gY3VzdG9taXplZCBydWxlIGhlcmUgaXMgc2ltcGx5IHBh c3NlZCBvbiB0byB0aGUNCiMgc3RhbmRhcmQgTWFrZWZpbGUuICBJZiBubyB0 YXJnZXQgaXMgc3BlY2lmaWVkLCAidXNhZ2UiIGlzIHBhc3NlZCBvbg0KIyB0 byBnZW5lcmF0ZSBhIGhlbHBmdWwgcHJpbnRvdXQuDQoNCnVzYWdlOg0KCUBt YWtlIC1mICQoU1JDKS9NYWtlZmlsZS5tayB1c2FnZQ0KDQppbnN0YWxsOg0K CUBtYWtlIC1mICQoU1JDKS9NYWtlZmlsZS5tayBpbnN0YWxsLXVuaXgNCg0K a24xMC1rcyBrbjEwLWtsIGJhc2Uta3MtaXRzIGJhc2Uta3MgYmFzZS1rbCBs aW50LWtzLWl0cyBsaW50LWtzIGxpbnQta2wgcG9ydC1rcyBrbDBpLXN5bmMg a2wwaS1ydG1vcHQgdGFwZWRkIHZka2ZtdCB3eHRlc3Qgd2Zjb252IHVkbGNv bnYgdWV4YmNvbnYgZW5hZGRyIGRsbXVuY2ggY2xlYW46DQoJQG1ha2UgLWYg JChTUkMpL01ha2VmaWxlLm1rICRAIFwNCgkgICAgIlNSQz0kKFNSQykiIFwN CgkgICAgIkNGTEFHUz0kKENGTEFHUykiIFwNCgkgICAgIkNGTEFHU19MSU5U PSQoQ0ZMQUdTX0xJTlQpIiBcDQoJICAgICJDRU5WRkxBR1M9JChDRU5WRkxB R1MpIg0K --0-1387370035-1239204344=:1866-- 28-Apr-2009 12:27:11-PDT,3196;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:23:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7758A2941B for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:14:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 573A8242BB; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:14:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com In-reply-to: (message from Mark Crispin on Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 References: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> <20090408064629.6E2782429D@panix5.panix.com> Message-Id: <20090428191439.573A8242BB@panix5.panix.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:14:39 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:23:38 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mark Crispin > On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Same error using fbppc. > Not on my system. The entire dvlites.c module is switched off under an > #if conditional (the file is compiled, but there's nothing generated). > Only the Linux makefile enables it. I haven't had time ot return to this for a few weeks. The fbppc makefile Mk-fbppc.mk which I tried is exactly the same as the one Mark included with the response above. >> I was using a Makefile for PPC that I created for the old release > That's your problem! I'll bet that you hacked a Linux makefile. > Attached is the proper fbppc Makefile. No, that's *not* my problem (and you lose that bet). I get the exact same error whether I try using the makefile I cobbled together from a FreeBSD makefile several years ago, or fbppc from the Panda distribution. Note that the old makefile was for 2.0a, from Ken's original distribution at Trailing Edge. I don't know why it's even finding dvlites.c. >> I ran it for quite a while. I simply grew tired of the initialization >> complaint about insufficient shared memory. > Did you run it as root and/or setuid root? You get that message when > klh10 isn't root; it'll run but won't be able to set up the shared memory > fully. The dpni20 module must run as root, and the kn20-kl module should > run as root. I get that message even if every executable in the directory is setuid root. Rich 28-Apr-2009 12:56:54-PDT,2109;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:54:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:36:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464DF3480B for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:36:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 20A9D242BB; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:36:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: KLH10 compilation problem on Linux X86 Message-Id: <20090428193643.20A9D242BB@panix5.panix.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:36:43 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:53:53 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: KLH10 compilation problem on Linux X86 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I apologize for beating on these equines, but I can't seem to compile kn10ops.c on a bog standard x86 Linux box (Slackware 12). gcc complains about attempts to get the address of two register variables ('d' on line 796, in function x_ashc, and 'qw' on line 3266, in function qdivstep). Clearly, I have not set up some environment variable(s) or other to tell the bloody compiler and build system what to do. I simply followed the install.txt instructions to create a KLH10_HOME variable and directory (/opt/klh10, in my case), cd to bld/lnx86, and type "make base-kl". This is interfering with real honest to $DEITY work. I need to load up a large number of disk images with Tops-10 source and binary directories, very quickly. Any suggestions as to what is going on here? Rich 28-Apr-2009 14:11:59-PDT,1647;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:08:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:01:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Rich Alderson cc: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: KLH10 compilation problem on Linux X86 In-Reply-To: <20090428193643.20A9D242BB@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: References: <20090428193643.20A9D242BB@panix5.panix.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:08:47 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 compilation problem on Linux X86 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) The compiler messages are due to anal-retentive behavior added in gcc4. Just remove the two offending register declarations. I just did so in my copy. As for the build on Mac OS X; it builds cleanly for me on PPC and x86. I wonder if you have older bits in something else. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 28-Apr-2009 22:49:24-PDT,4139;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:46:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from asmtpout015.mac.com ([17.148.16.90]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:21:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes X-Received: from [192.168.1.52] (c-24-61-92-169.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [24.61.92.169]) by asmtp015.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0KIU008G0K82AJ40@asmtp015.mac.com> for TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com; Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com Message-id: From: John Francini To: Rich Alderson In-reply-to: <20090428191439.573A8242BB@panix5.panix.com> Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400 References: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> <20090408064629.6E2782429D@panix5.panix.com> <20090428191439.573A8242BB@panix5.panix.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) ReSent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:45:58 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Rich, Have you tried changing the sysctl settings for shared memory? This has to be done at system startup; it can't be done once the system is running. If you create the file /etc/sysctl.conf, and put in all the sysctl changes you need, it will be executed automatically during system startup. My sysctl.conf has the following in it: # # Expand shared memory settings a lot # kern.sysv.shmmax=268435456 kern.sysv.shmmin=1 kern.sysv.shmmni=256 kern.sysv.shmseg=256 kern.sysv.shmall=262144 Since I set that up, I never see any "insufficient shared memory" messages, under either Tiger or Leopard. John On 28 Apr 2009, at 15:14, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Mark Crispin > >> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> Same error using fbppc. > >> Not on my system. The entire dvlites.c module is switched off >> under an >> #if conditional (the file is compiled, but there's nothing >> generated). >> Only the Linux makefile enables it. > > I haven't had time ot return to this for a few weeks. > > The fbppc makefile Mk-fbppc.mk which I tried is exactly the same as > the one > Mark included with the response above. > >>> I was using a Makefile for PPC that I created for the old release > >> That's your problem! I'll bet that you hacked a Linux makefile. >> Attached is the proper fbppc Makefile. > > No, that's *not* my problem (and you lose that bet). I get the > exact same > error whether I try using the makefile I cobbled together from a > FreeBSD > makefile several years ago, or fbppc from the Panda distribution. > > Note that the old makefile was for 2.0a, from Ken's original > distribution at > Trailing Edge. I don't know why it's even finding dvlites.c. > >>> I ran it for quite a while. I simply grew tired of the >>> initialization >>> complaint about insufficient shared memory. > >> Did you run it as root and/or setuid root? You get that message when >> klh10 isn't root; it'll run but won't be able to set up the shared >> memory >> fully. The dpni20 module must run as root, and the kn20-kl module >> should >> run as root. > > I get that message even if every executable in the directory is > setuid root. > > Rich > 29-Apr-2009 12:23:34-PDT,2345;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:20:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB89034803 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:29:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id ABFAC242BC; Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:29:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com In-reply-to: (message from Mark Crispin on Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:01:19 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: KLH10 compilation problem on Linux X86 References: <20090428193643.20A9D242BB@panix5.panix.com> Message-Id: <20090429182906.ABFAC242BC@panix5.panix.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:29:06 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:20:12 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 compilation problem on Linux X86 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:01:19 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mark Crispin > The compiler messages are due to anal-retentive behavior added in gcc4. > Just remove the two offending register declarations. I just did so in my > copy. Thanks, that worked a champ! > As for the build on Mac OS X; it builds cleanly for me on PPC and x86. I > wonder if you have older bits in something else. So I decided to flush everything and start over. I put KLH10_HOME in /opt, copied the entirety of the Panda distribution from the CD you gave me to a root-level directory /panda-distribution, cd'd to bld/fbppc, and (after getting rid of one register declaration) "make base-kl" was successful. Thanks for the push^Wsuggestion! Rich 29-Apr-2009 12:26:29-PDT,2550;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:20:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:33:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A4729404 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:33:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 0D04C242BC; Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:33:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com In-reply-to: (message from John Francini on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400) Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 References: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> <20090408064629.6E2782429D@panix5.panix.com> <20090428191439.573A8242BB@panix5.panix.com> Message-Id: <20090429183316.0D04C242BC@panix5.panix.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:33:15 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:20:43 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > From: John Francini > Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400 > Rich, > Have you tried changing the sysctl settings for shared memory? This > has to be done at system startup; it can't be done once the system is > running. I've tried that for a long time, and it never took. > If you create the file /etc/sysctl.conf, and put in all the sysctl > changes you need, it will be executed automatically during system > startup. I was following the suggestion of an Apple Xcode developer and changing entries in one of the system property lists. Putting your suggested /etc/sysctl.conf on my system and rebooting worked like a charm with both the old 2.0a compile and the newly successful 2.0h compile. Thanks, John, and thanks everyone for your patience. Rich 3-May-2009 18:20:01-PDT,6542;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 18:16:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.1]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 10:44:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from bob-smiths-computer.local ([96.231.203.19]) by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KJ200DEDX9Z47TL@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> for TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com; Sun, 03 May 2009 12:44:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-id: <49FDD7FB.1040502@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 13:44:27 -0400 From: bob smith Reply-to: Bob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.18) Gecko/20081031 SeaMonkey/1.1.13 MIME-version: 1.0 To: TOPS-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 References: <20090408024909.82FB62429C@panix5.panix.com> <20090408064629.6E2782429D@panix5.panix.com> <20090428191439.573A8242BB@panix5.panix.com> <20090429183316.0D04C242BC@panix5.panix.com> In-reply-to: <20090429183316.0D04C242BC@panix5.panix.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=------------000506090400060108090704 ReSent-Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000506090400060108090704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: John Francini >> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400 >> > > >> Rich, >> > > >> Have you tried changing the sysctl settings for shared memory? This >> has to be done at system startup; it can't be done once the system is >> running. >> > > I've tried that for a long time, and it never took. > > >> If you create the file /etc/sysctl.conf, and put in all the sysctl >> changes you need, it will be executed automatically during system >> startup. >> > > I was following the suggestion of an Apple Xcode developer and changing > entries in one of the system property lists. Putting your suggested > /etc/sysctl.conf on my system and rebooting worked like a charm with both > the old 2.0a compile and the newly successful 2.0h compile. > > Thanks, John, and thanks everyone for your patience. > > Rich > > > Rich, I for one like the traffic on the list. My provder dropped alt.sys.pdp10 so new mail on the list got back into the KLH installs on my macines. Thanks for that. The questions you asked were percolating in my situation too, so the answers helped me - especially the shared memory reminders. Won' t repeat what I said to myself when I looked and found I had upgraded systems and forgot to set the kernel parameters properly. I am tring to compile a cheat sheet of tricks and reminders for how to do a good set up for KLH10 running TOPS 20. All those things I forgot, all the hints on terminal setups, in a handy place. Will put them up on a web page. so, THANKS!! good questions! bob -- --- This Sig Line Intentionally Left Blank --------------000506090400060108090704 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich Alderson wrote: 
From: John Francini <francini@mac.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400
    

  
Rich,
    

  
Have you tried changing the sysctl settings for shared memory?  This  
has to be done at system startup; it can't be done once the system is  
running.
    

I've tried that for a long time, and it never took.

  
If you create the file /etc/sysctl.conf, and put in all the sysctl  
changes you need, it will be executed automatically during system  
startup.
    

I was following the suggestion of an Apple Xcode developer and changing
entries in one of the system property lists.  Putting your suggested
/etc/sysctl.conf on my system and rebooting worked like a charm with both
the old 2.0a compile and the newly successful 2.0h compile.

Thanks, John, and thanks everyone for your patience.

                                                                Rich
Rich,
I for one like the traffic on the list.  My provder dropped alt.sys.pdp10
so new mail on the list got back into the KLH installs on my macines.
Thanks for that. The questions you asked were percolating in my
situation too, so the answers helped me - especially the shared memory
reminders. Won' t repeat what I said to myself when I looked and found
I had upgraded systems and forgot to set the kernel parameters properly.
I am tring to compile a cheat sheet of tricks and reminders for how to do a good
set up for KLH10 running TOPS 20.  All those things I forgot, all the hints
on terminal setups, in a handy place.  Will put them up on a web page.
so, THANKS!! good questions!
bob

-- 
---
This Sig Line Intentionally Left Blank
--------------000506090400060108090704-- 3-May-2009 18:22:52-PDT,1156;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 18:17:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 17:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 17:35:30 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: panda monitor To: tops-20@Lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14406129982.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:16:59 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: panda monitor ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I run the panda monitor from the trailing-edge panda-dist.tar.gz file. I log in, enable, then run window. while still enabled, the program bughlt's as "piovfw" when I disable and run window it says "control-c capability required" but doesn't bughlt. ------- 3-May-2009 18:25:46-PDT,1082;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 18:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 17:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 17:48:44 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: more on the previous message To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14406132391.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:17:22 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: more on the previous message ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I build a non-wheel account on my machine, and when I run window it says "control-c capability required". when I enable (no privs at all), it runs just fine... ------- 3-May-2009 18:28:37-PDT,1003;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 18:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 18:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:13:20 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: more To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14406136869.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:17:42 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: more ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) sorry about this many messsages... When I run ptycon (which I know requires ^C capability), it works fine. even when disabled. --jsol ------- 3-May-2009 20:05:14-PDT,1523;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 20:02:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 3 May 2009 20:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 19:59:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@Lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: panda monitor In-Reply-To: <14406129982.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14406129982.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 20:02:10 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: panda monitor ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sun, 3 May 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > I log in, enable, then run window. while still enabled, > the program bughlt's as "piovfw" This was fixed two years ago. PSIPG needs to be 3 pages, not 2. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 4-May-2009 16:36:31-PDT,1569;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 4 May 2009 16:33:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 4 May 2009 16:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:26:45 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: kl10-kl and the panda monitr To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14406379611.13.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:33:02 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: kl10-kl and the panda monitr ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I did a compile on the monitor sources on my kn10-kl machine. I had two copies running (in separate directories). One of the compilations worked, but the other one had to be done more than once. I did it again on an MIT machine (without superuser) and it did exactly the same thing. One compilation worked, the other one had to be repeated. I found this by placing the new monitr in new.exe. then in Boot> I said "new". itsaid [tops20 mounted] and hung. when I recompiled it, it ran just fine. i don't know if any of you had any input on this, but it is possible that there may be a problem with the emulator. --jsol ------- 4-May-2009 16:43:40-PDT,1876;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 4 May 2009 16:40:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 4 May 2009 16:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:38:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: kl10-kl and the panda monitr In-Reply-To: <14406379611.13.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14406379611.13.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:40:40 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: kl10-kl and the panda monitr ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Mon, 4 May 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > One of the compilations worked, but the other one had to be done > more than once. > i don't know if any of you had any input on this, but it is > possible that there may be a problem with the emulator. This is not a problem in the emulator. You didn't examine the build log to see if the build was successful. If you had, you would have noticed that your first build failed due to psect overlaps, and that the build wrote new psect definitions so that a rebuild would work. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 4-May-2009 17:06:37-PDT,946;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 4 May 2009 17:03:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 4 May 2009 16:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:53:53 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: panda monitr/kl10-kl... To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14406384550.13.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:03:25 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: panda monitr/kl10-kl... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Thanx, Mark. That looks like what happened. ------- 8-May-2009 15:02:11-PDT,3262;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 8 May 2009 14:58:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.17]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 8 May 2009 14:52:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from bob-smiths-computer.local ([96.231.203.19]) by vms173017.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KJC00E5GI28CZIO@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> for TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM; Fri, 08 May 2009 16:51:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-id: <4A04A974.4030205@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 17:51:48 -0400 From: bob smith Reply-to: Bob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.18) Gecko/20081031 SeaMonkey/1.1.13 MIME-version: 1.0 To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: two questions KLH and Panda Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=------------020300020507090401070108 ReSent-Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 14:58:09 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: two questions KLH and Panda ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020300020507090401070108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june 2006? Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly compiled under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit? I am arguing with my dual cpu amd box, trying to run the panda distro from june. The computer does no want to listen to me.... Running 64bit version of ubuntu 8.10, and the compiler issue bit me, but the KLH10 binary set in the june distro does start. Takes 100% cpu, and despite setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to want to pick the wrong ethernet interface, and it does not always want to let me in the console. thanks bob smith --------------020300020507090401070108 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june 2006?

Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly  compiled
under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit?
 
I am arguing with my dual cpu amd box, trying to run the panda distro from june.  The
computer does no want to listen to me.... Running 64bit version of ubuntu 8.10, and the
compiler issue bit me, but the KLH10 binary set in the june distro does start.
Takes 100% cpu, and despite setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to want to pick the
wrong ethernet interface, and it does not always want to let me in the console.
thanks
bob smith

 --------------020300020507090401070108-- 8-May-2009 15:25:03-PDT,2728;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 8 May 2009 15:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 8 May 2009 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:18:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: bob smith cc: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: two questions KLH and Panda In-Reply-To: <4A04A974.4030205@verizon.net> Message-ID: References: <4A04A974.4030205@verizon.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:21:35 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: two questions KLH and Panda ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Fri, 8 May 2009, bob smith wrote: > Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june 2006? That's the current release version. I've let out some pre-releases, but I'm waiting for Tom's new FTP server before troubling everybody with a release. > Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly > compiled under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit? You need to make a new build, since none of the existing builds is right. You'll also need to create an AMD64 CPU type in the sources, looking at what is in X86, SPARC, and AXP. It shouldn't be too hard but it will be tedious. Now, if you're expecting me to do this, you'll have to wait a while. My current only AMD64 Ubuntu machine is dedicated for other (work!) purposes; everything else is x86 or PPC. > Takes 100% cpu, and despite > setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to want to pick the wrong ethernet > interface, and it does not always want to let me in the console. Well, it's 32-bit and built years ago. At least it has static libraries! I'm not surprise that it takes up 100% CPU. It will do that unless the idle device is set up and works. Also, newer Linux systems don't work right with the fancy clock, so you have to go back to the old clock. Are you sure that you set up klh10.ini correctly, with ifc= set to the right interface? I have: devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifc=eth1 on my two machines. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 8-May-2009 15:42:33-PDT,6663;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 8 May 2009 15:39:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vms173019pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.19]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 8 May 2009 15:33:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from bob-smiths-computer.local ([96.231.203.19]) by vms173019.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KJC00DF2JYQPX0D@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net> for TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM; Fri, 08 May 2009 17:32:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-id: <4A04B317.5000809@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 18:32:55 -0400 From: bob smith Reply-to: Bob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.18) Gecko/20081031 SeaMonkey/1.1.13 MIME-version: 1.0 To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: two questions KLH and Panda References: <4A04A974.4030205@verizon.net> In-reply-to: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=------------050206040800060009020004 ReSent-Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:39:11 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: two questions KLH and Panda ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050206040800060009020004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Crispin wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 2009, bob smith wrote: >> Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june 2006? > > That's the current release version. I've let out some pre-releases, > but I'm waiting for Tom's new FTP server before troubling everybody > with a release. > >> Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly >> compiled under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit? > > You need to make a new build, since none of the existing builds is > right. You'll also need to create an AMD64 CPU type in the sources, > looking at what is in X86, SPARC, and AXP. It shouldn't be too hard > but it will be tedious. > > Now, if you're expecting me to do this, you'll have to wait a while. > My current only AMD64 Ubuntu machine is dedicated for other (work!) > purposes; everything else is x86 or PPC. > >> Takes 100% cpu, and despite setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to >> want to pick the wrong ethernet interface, and it does not always >> want to let me in the console. > > Well, it's 32-bit and built years ago. At least it has static libraries! > > I'm not surprise that it takes up 100% CPU. It will do that unless > the idle device is set up and works. Also, newer Linux systems don't > work right with the fancy clock, so you have to go back to the old clock. > > Are you sure that you set up klh10.ini correctly, with ifc= set to the > right interface? I have: > devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifc=eth1 > on my two machines. > > -- Mark -- > > http://panda.com/tops-20 > TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors > Mark, thanks!! I think you gave me the hint - I don't have dedic=true! I will be glad to host the panda distros if you want, I have a dedicated 5mbit static ip conneciton. Just let me know!! I will continue arguing with gcc 4.3, and ubuntu, will keep you all posted. thanks again. -- --- This Sig Line Intentionally Left Blank --------------050206040800060009020004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Crispin wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2009, bob smith wrote:
Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june 2006?

That's the current release version.  I've let out some pre-releases, but I'm waiting for Tom's new FTP server before troubling everybody with a release.

Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly compiled under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit?

You need to make a new build, since none of the existing builds is right. You'll also need to create an AMD64 CPU type in the sources, looking at what is in X86, SPARC, and AXP.  It shouldn't be too hard but it will be tedious.

Now, if you're expecting me to do this, you'll have to wait a while.  My current only AMD64 Ubuntu machine is dedicated for other (work!) purposes; everything else is x86 or PPC.

Takes 100% cpu, and despite setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to want to pick the wrong ethernet interface, and it does not always want to let me in the console.

Well, it's 32-bit and built years ago.  At least it has static libraries!

I'm not surprise that it takes up 100% CPU.  It will do that unless the idle device is set up and works.  Also, newer Linux systems don't work right with the fancy clock, so you have to go back to the old clock.

Are you sure that you set up klh10.ini correctly, with ifc= set to the right interface?  I have:
    devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifc=eth1
on my two machines.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

Mark,
thanks!! I think you gave me the hint - I don't have dedic=true!
I will be glad to host the panda distros if you want, I have a dedicated 5mbit static
ip conneciton. Just let me know!!
I will continue arguing with gcc 4.3, and ubuntu, will keep you all posted.

thanks again.

-- 
---
This Sig Line Intentionally Left Blank
--------------050206040800060009020004-- 10-May-2009 18:21:11-PDT,1125;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 10 May 2009 18:17:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 10 May 2009 16:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 16:45:08 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: resolver on panda monitor To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14407955821.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 18:17:20 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: resolver on panda monitor ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Does anyone know how to set up the RESOLVer to work with my panda monitor? I can connect to hosts which are in hosts.txt, and I can connect to [host.host.host.host]s. I just have to set up the resolver. --jsol ------- 10-May-2009 18:33:24-PDT,2048;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 10 May 2009 18:31:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 10 May 2009 18:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 18:25:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: resolver on panda monitor In-Reply-To: <14407955821.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14407955821.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 18:30:54 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: resolver on panda monitor ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sun, 10 May 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > Does anyone know how to set up the RESOLVer to work with my > panda monitor? I can connect to hosts which are in hosts.txt, > and I can connect to [host.host.host.host]s. I just have to set up > the resolver. Did you read the file README in the UNIX side of the Panda distribution? It states: DOMAIN:RESOLV.CONFIG to define your DNS servers, your default domain (replacing MYDOMAIN.COM) and any users in addition to OPERATOR who can send control messages to the resolver. If you have not yet read the README file, please do so now. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 10-May-2009 19:18:24-PDT,1276;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 10 May 2009 19:15:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 10 May 2009 18:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 18:33:39 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: Re: resolver on panda monitor To: MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM cc: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <14407975575.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 19:15:19 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: resolver on panda monitor ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I did what you requested, I just need to know which host address I should use in the domain:resolv.config file. I tried doing 192.94.36.20 (which is the one that twenex.org uses). I also tied to use my unix host but I don't run named on that machine. ------- 11-May-2009 08:52:50-PDT,3350;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 11 May 2009 08:48:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 11 May 2009 08:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 08:05:00 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: [Chris Smith : Re: resolver on panda monitor] To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14408123277.8.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 08:48:29 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: [Chris Smith : Re: resolver on panda monitor] ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) thanx, that worked. --------------- Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f110.google.com ([209.85.221.110]) by xkleten.paulallen.com with TCP/SMTP; Mon 11 May 2009 07:51:07-PDT Received: by qyk8 with SMTP id 8so1557724qyk.32 for ; Mon, 11 May 2009 07:50:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=scRucUQ5LkmrBrqOId5BaktDk1B7w1MF4PcJqhJXYas=; b=vdP+471rW/m5PSppOdTX9swOAi4IoIs+ESFEtSJklWtu6BCe+FsikRTFsB9y05A/FS S2tLyRo+s5yQ/7qmXZkyuuDJ9Z0ZPKKWWs0KdiwwXnENX8BmZtgZvAm6ktePnDMg1IU8 V6vgEX7lzCMIjwaR7SpUTxFqEQEpR1QE7W5AY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DgKq11imkQHHimU3t7Wyfw+1dwXu3rapWilT7JkLq2YBKKroeVozqrvg2wQ6ofkm2P wvsHYCQoL2thBpJ66CBjCtqqky9SRfyBTkzBGMTrOc2bwR8SG0ahu79KGvBMuSL3eCWb DEW2LwaixSqWZ/4kumScNcAkVwErOrgRKUWr8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.98.200 with SMTP id r8mr784124qcn.5.1242053436958; Mon, 11 May 2009 07:50:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <14407975575.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> References: <14407975575.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 08:50:36 -0600 Message-ID: <1a6457e90905110750x5b7c9502t15b669dddd20b0e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: resolver on panda monitor From: Chris Smith To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jsol -- Try the name servers from /etc/resolv.conf. Chris On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > I did what you requested, I just need to know which host address > I should use in the domain:resolv.config file. I tried doing 192.94.36.20 > (which is the one that twenex.org uses). > > I also tied to use my unix host but I don't run named on that machine. > > ------- > > ------- 17-May-2009 00:19:05-PDT,964;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 00:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Mail-From: MRC created at 17-May-2009 00:09:21 Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 00:09:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Subject: 26 years ago today... To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Pithy-Thought: TOPS-20 was a great improvement over its successors Message-ID: <14409609554.10.MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM> ReSent-Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 00:13:44 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: 26 years ago today... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On May 17, 1983, Project Jupiter was cancelled, and with that came Digital's fateful decision not to build any more new PDP-10 models. ------- 17-May-2009 12:19:20-PDT,1845;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.1]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from bob-smiths-computer.local ([96.231.203.19]) by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KJS00ENDXPRRURQ@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> for TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM; Sun, 17 May 2009 13:51:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-id: <4A105CAF.5020400@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:51:27 -0400 From: bob smith Reply-to: Bob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.18) Gecko/20081031 SeaMonkey/1.1.13 MIME-version: 1.0 To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: 26 years ago today... References: <14409609554.10.MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM> In-reply-to: <14409609554.10.MRC@Lingling.Panda.COM> Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:13:41 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: 26 years ago today... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Mark Crispin wrote: > On May 17, 1983, Project Jupiter was cancelled, and with that came Digital's > fateful decision not to build any more new PDP-10 models. > ------- > > > I don't have a good retort. I only have a comparison with the auto industry. -- --- This Sig Line Intentionally Left Blank 17-May-2009 14:25:27-PDT,2164;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 14:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mv.opost.com ([199.125.75.195]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 14:10:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from stars.fpl (stars.fpl [172.22.41.19]) by mv.opost.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n4HL9viG024687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 17:09:58 -0400 X-Received: from stars.fpl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stars.fpl (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4HL9v3p030470 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 17:09:57 -0400 X-Received: (from dlm@localhost) by stars.fpl (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n4HL9vsI030468 for TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM; Sun, 17 May 2009 17:09:57 -0400 Message-Id: <200905172109.n4HL9vsI030468@stars.fpl> X-Authentication-Warning: stars.fpl: dlm set sender to dlm@opost.com using -f From: Dan Murphy Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 17:09:57 -0400 To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: 26 years ago today... Reply-To: Dan Murphy X-ParkBits-MailScanner-ID: n4HL9viG024687 X-ParkBits-MailScanner: Not scanned. X-ParkBits-MailScanner-From: dlm@opost.com X-Spam-Status: No ReSent-Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: 26 years ago today... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Yes, and only 5 years later, it was clear to most that DEC was in serious decline. 10 years later, Bob "the Undertaker" Palmer was at work burying the remains. All thanks to the "One egg, one basket" strategy. IMO. -d Mark Crispin wrote: > On May 17, 1983, Project Jupiter was cancelled, and with that came Digital's > fateful decision not to build any more new PDP-10 models. > ------- > > > 17-May-2009 15:16:00-PDT,2060;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Dan Murphy cc: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: 26 years ago today... In-Reply-To: <200905172109.n4HL9vsI030468@stars.fpl> Message-ID: References: <200905172109.n4HL9vsI030468@stars.fpl> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:10:49 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: 26 years ago today... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sun, 17 May 2009, Dan Murphy wrote: > Yes, and only 5 years later, it was clear to most that DEC was in > serious decline. I'm glad to hear you say that. Certain ex-Digital individuals have vehemently disagreed with me when I said something similar. > 10 years later, Bob "the Undertaker" Palmer was at work burying the > remains. Digital went off in many directions post-1988, none of which seemed to have any relationship to what it did before. After killing off everything other than VAX and VMS, Digital promptly went off in a shotgun approach on additional architectures (RISC and AXP) and operating systems (Ultrix, OSF/1, NT). > All thanks to the "One egg, one basket" strategy. IMO. Which is weird given subsequent events. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 17-May-2009 16:58:09-PDT,1682;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 16:52:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vsta.org ([208.70.148.177]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:46:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from deepthought.vsta.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vsta.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3E3ABB1C for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:45:58 -0700 (PDT) To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM From: Andy Valencia Subject: Re: 26 years ago today... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 May 2009 15:09:06 PDT." Message-Id: <20090517224558.CF3E3ABB1C@vsta.org> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:45:58 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:52:49 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: 26 years ago today... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) -------- [Mark Crispin writes:] > > Yes, and only 5 years later, it was clear to most that DEC was in > > serious decline. > I'm glad to hear you say that. Certain ex-Digital individuals have > vehemently disagreed with me when I said something similar. The defining moment for me was when DEC sued the federal government to keep the feds from specifying POSIX compliance. I had no doubt that it was all going to be downhill from there. Andy 19-May-2009 14:11:27-PDT,2418;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 19 May 2009 14:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 19 May 2009 13:57:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36EC2940C for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 16:57:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id AEDEB2420B; Tue, 19 May 2009 16:57:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Tops-10 on KLH10 2.0h Message-Id: <20090519205734.AEDEB2420B@panix5.panix.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:57:34 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:05:18 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Tops-10 on KLH10 2.0h ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I don't know that anyone else on this list cares about Tops-10 on KLH10, but... Tops-10 is not restartable under 2.0h, unlike its behaviour on real hardware. (For those unfamiliar with booting Tops-10: The monitor maps the BOOT program into its own address space, and when the RSX-20F command SHUTDOWN is executed the monitor branches into BOOT.) The following example is repeatable: .kj [LGNJSP Other jobs same PPN] Job 2 User OPR [1,2] Logged-off CTY at 13:27:08 on 19-May-109 Runtime: 0:00:00, KCS:0, Connect time: 0:00:37 Disk Reads:510, Writes:0, Blocks saved:0 .KLH10>> shut BOOT> [Loading from DSKB:SYSTEM.EXE[1,4]] PDPplanet DECsystem-10 02-Mar-89 Why reload: new Date: 19-may-2009 Time: 132840 Startup option: go [DTE: (RCV 11QC 0) != (11's 11QC 240+1)][DTE: To-11 QCT:0. < Header] After the DTE message, the emulated system is completely hung, although a return to the KLH10 command processor via ^\ is possible. Any ideas about what's happening here? Thanks, Rich 3-Jun-2009 13:33:47-PDT,2224;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:28:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:20:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n53IKWPU024111 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:20:32 -0400 Message-ID: <4A26BEEE.8070603@acedsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:20:30 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:28:03 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) This is a documentation question for the 'new' instruction to save processor flags. I was performing some arithmatic and wanted to both save the flags and examine them. Basically I wanted to do the equivalent of something like an 80x86 PUSHF instruction. JFCL will do what I want at the expense of whacking the flags. That suggests something like a JSP, but that doesn't work in a non-zero section. I remembered an instruction being introduced in a 'new' version of the KL10 microcode to do this: SFM. I remember even trying it with USRIO% to see if the I/O bit got set (it did). My electronic 1982 SYSREF describes the SFM mnemonic on pages 2-72, 2-73, 2-75, 2-137, A-25, E-4, etc... But MACRO and DDT don't know about it. 25460,,10 assembles as an instruction called XSFM 10 which appears to put the flags into AC10. This is a documentation error, right? Or does XSFM do something else? 3-Jun-2009 13:51:01-PDT,1438;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:45:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM In-Reply-To: <4A26BEEE.8070603@acedsl.com> Message-ID: References: <4A26BEEE.8070603@acedsl.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) The opcode is called XSFM in TOPS-20 and is equivalent to JRST 14, XSFM E stores the PC flags in E. That is made pretty clear on page 2-75. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 3-Jun-2009 15:23:57-PDT,2928;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:09:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n53M9qtF004691; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:09:52 -0400 Message-ID: <4A26F4B0.80300@acedsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:09:52 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Crispin CC: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM References: <4A26BEEE.8070603@acedsl.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:18:26 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Yes, it is. But it's called SFM in both the electronic .PDF version that I have of the 1982 SYSREF and in the 1978 printed edition that I recently found languishing in my celler. There is no mention of XSFM in either volume. I remembered that some things changed with SFM. It's documented as not working in section 0, but it does (and I thought that I remembered that it did, too). JRST 14 works in section 0 on a KL, a Toad and KLH10 (at least I don't get an illegal instruction trap) I also thought I remembered seeing the mnemonic as SFM way back when. So when I used SFM in my code and got errors and found that DDT didn't know about it, I got Confused. It was only by chance that I tried doing a JRST 14, and discovered the XSFM mnemonic. Obviously DDT and MACRO have to be the definitive source of record on any mnemonic. It's just interesting that it appears that from 1978 to 1982 this wasn't changed one way or the other. My 1996 Toad ARM also documents JRST 14 as being SFM (page 124), although mention is made of some software knowing it as XSFM. I had never thought to check this there, though. Mark Crispin wrote: > The opcode is called XSFM in TOPS-20 and is equivalent to JRST 14, > > XSFM E stores the PC flags in E. That is made pretty clear on page > 2-75. > > -- Mark -- > > http://panda.com/tops-20 > TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 3-Jun-2009 15:36:34-PDT,1850;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:30:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:30:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM In-Reply-To: <4A26F4B0.80300@acedsl.com> Message-ID: References: <4A26BEEE.8070603@acedsl.com> <4A26F4B0.80300@acedsl.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:30:42 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote: > I remembered that some things changed with SFM. It's documented as > not working in section 0, but it does This change occurred in KL ucode 331. User I/O is no longer required to do XSFM in section 0. However, the PCS state is only saved if Exec mode. I think that this happened about the same time as the MCA25 (upgrade 2060 to 2065) but I am no longer sure. XSFM is not permitted on the KS, nor model A KL. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 6-Jun-2009 14:31:47-PDT,3602;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:26:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:11:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n56LAtZs021433 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 17:10:56 -0400 Message-ID: <4A2ADB5D.8040600@acedsl.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:10:53 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Symbols, Part 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:25:58 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Symbols, Part 2 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) While chasing down a pointer problem (what else?), I started running into more problems with DDT not typing out symbols. It got bad enough so that I lost everything except opcodes. No symbolic registers, nothing... Not even trying to open a module's symbol table (module$:) worked. I had completely zorched my symbols (or so I thought). I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on. Symbols weren't working in the inferior fork at all. I tried a LOT of things to get them to work. Linking in RDDT, keeping DDT out of the execution space until the breakpoint was hit and then mapping it (I call it 'fly-in' debugging). Nothing... I finally broke down and looked at the DDT documentation: DDT44C.MEM. Playing around with $5M got me a place where I could shove a pointer to the symbol tables and everything came back. For those who lose symbols, I highly recommend it. But why? So I did some nosing around in DDT.MAC and found that the problem was my fault (surprise!) There are a number of things that DDT tries to do in order get its hands on some symbols. This includes looking at the program entry vector, the program data vectors and various other likely locations. I had inadvertantly shut off access to most of these or never turned it on in the first place. For example, one place that DDT looks is what .JBSYM has. But I had a guard page mapped to page 0 in both section 0 and the program section to catch uninitialized index stores. Heh... I use a CFORK% to create the inferior fork and then an SMAP% to punch the program section down there. But the data fork is created without program data vectors nor entry vectors. I never bothered with entry vectors because the control fork is assembled to know the exact start addresses. Ditto, PDV's--other than setting them when linking the server, I didn't know much about them; they were after my time at Columbia. So DDT couldn't get to the 'lowseg', couldn't get any entry vector information and there where no PDV's to be found. So no symbols... What I do now in inferior fork initialisation is take every PDV that is in the control fork (via a .POGET) and put it in the data fork (via a .POADD). Symbols!! Just thought I might save somebody some time in the future... 12-Jun-2009 07:34:28-PDT,1931;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:28:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.acecape.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:23:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n5CENN1G008219 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:23:24 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3264DB.7050306@acedsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:23:23 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Tops-20 Mail file coversion? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:28:40 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Tops-20 Mail file coversion? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Does anybody have any experience coverting Tops-20 mail files into other formats? I'm doing some reviews and it would really help if I could use a graphical client, perferably Netscape. I don't even need native formats, such as .PST's; just something that can be imported. I know that some programs will do conversions. At one point, I know that Emacs BABYL mode would and I know that the Columbia Unix MM (C) would, too. I obviously can't read stuff via IMAP beause Tops-20 still only has IMAP2. I wasn't sure about Pine (I barely have the merest tangential experience with it). 12-Jun-2009 07:47:11-PDT,1992;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:41:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: Tops-20 Mail file coversion? In-Reply-To: <4A3264DB.7050306@acedsl.com> Message-ID: References: <4A3264DB.7050306@acedsl.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:41:38 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Tops-20 Mail file coversion? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Fri, 12 Jun 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote: > Does anybody have any experience coverting Tops-20 mail files into > other formats? My mailutil program, distributed as part of Alpine, supports TOPS-20 mail files, and can convert to any of several other formats. > I obviously can't read stuff via IMAP beause Tops-20 still only has > IMAP2. I wasn't sure about Pine (I barely have the merest tangential > experience with it). Alpine (and Pine before it) have always supported TOPS-20 mail files and IMAP2. I am using Alpine right now to read this message to a TOPS-20 IMAP server. Any program based upon my c-client library also ought to work with IMAP2. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 16-Jun-2009 14:20:47-PDT,1132;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:14:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:06:50 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: mmailr To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14417626331.10.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:14:52 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: mmailr ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I tried submitted a batch job with a "mm send" to 8609770419@mobile.mycingular.com. I tried to send mail from the standard exec running on xlketen.paulallen.com, twenex.org, and gilgamesh.phiber.com and it sent properly, it just has to do with batch jobs. ------- 19-Jun-2009 17:50:17-PDT,1198;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:17:45 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: curious.. To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14418447519.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:44:26 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: curious.. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I am confused about how ACJ works with the panda monitor. Right now I can not log into a non-files-only directory.... It works fine on gw.phiber.com, but my emulator and also twenex.org it hangs saying not valid by the access control facility. I guess I just need documentation. I think I need doc for acjdec. ------- 19-Jun-2009 18:05:53-PDT,1984;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:00:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:54:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: curious.. In-Reply-To: <14418447519.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14418447519.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:00:11 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: curious.. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > I am confused about how ACJ works with the panda monitor. Right > now I can not log into a non-files-only directory.... It works fine > on gw.phiber.com, but my emulator and also twenex.org it hangs saying > not valid by the access control facility. Hangs or fails? Panda ACJ denies login in the following circumstances: . userid is frozen . login on the CTY and not WHEEL, OPERATOR, or MAINTENANCE . login as OPERATOR, and not on the CTY or a PTY controlled by OPERATOR > I guess I just need documentation. I think I need doc for acjdec. Documentation for the DEC ACJ is in along with its source. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 20-Jun-2009 11:22:42-PDT,1162;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:16:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:00:44 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: acj and the panda monitor To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14418641030.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:16:18 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: acj and the panda monitor ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) : check the [comment] line. ; 3. Record CRDIR% that sets capabilities, disallow CRDIR% of non files-only ; subdirectory. JN CD%DIR,.GECAB+.CDMOD(D),GRANT ;[comment] allow if files-only ; is this the right line in this file acj.mac? ------- 20-Jun-2009 12:47:50-PDT,951;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:42:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:18:34 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: panda monitor and acj. To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14418655200.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:42:20 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: panda monitor and acj. ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) sorry for the duplication, this is more clear. ------- 20-Jun-2009 12:53:04-PDT,2410;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:19:31 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: sigh ^2 To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14418655371.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:42:44 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: sigh ^2 ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) please forgive me again... here's what I wanted to say... ;[comment] this is the title for acj.mac. TITLE ACJ Access Control Job SUBTTL Written by Mark Crispin SEARCH MACSYM,MONSYM,ANAUNV,FNGDEF ACJVER==7 ; version of ACJ ACJMIN==1 ; minor version ACJEDT==^D158 ; edit version ; Access Control Job features: ; 1. Disallow OPERATOR logins/attach if not on CTY or a PTY controlled by ; OPERATOR. ; 2. Disallow login/attach if frozen. ; 3. Record CRDIR% that sets capabilities, disallow CRDIR% of non files-only ; subdirectory. ; 4. Log capabilities enabling. ; 5. Downtime queue management, catch HSYS% and update downtime queue as ; appropriate. ; 6. If FTSETSPD, disallow setting speed on non-dialup terminals if not ; WHEEL or OPERATOR. ; 7. Disallow creating more than MAXFRK forks. ; 8. ACCESS and CONNECT to non-PS: structures works if PS: user group matches. ; 9. Disallow CRJOB% if not WHEEL or OPERATOR. ; 10. Record logout information for FINGER. ; 11. Record entry into MDDT on console. ; 12. Disallow CTY: assign. ; 13. Only allow WOPR or MAINT to log in on CTY ;[comment] this is near the code to allow files-only directory ;[comment] to be created. IFQN. CD%MOD,.GECFL(D) ; setting mode? HRRZ A,.GECAB+.CDLEN(D) ; yes, get length of block CAIGE A,.CDMOD ; has mode word? IFSKP. JN CD%DIR,.GECAB+.CDMOD(D),GRANT ; allow if files-only ENDIF. ELSE. SETZ A, ; not setting mode, directory exist? HRROI B,.GEDIR(D) RCDIR% ------- 20-Jun-2009 18:05:17-PDT,1320;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:59:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:52:01 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: panda monitor and acj b roken... To: tops-20@Lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14418694056.11.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:59:31 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: panda monitor and acj b roken... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) It looks like the problem is here not in panda. Please ignore my bug report. I was successfully made a file-only subdirectory from gilgamesh.phiber.com that's a current panda machine. I also got it to run on my locel emulator. so the problem is somewhere.. I will look forward to that and I will make sure the bugs I report pertain to panda monitor or xkl. sorry about my problem... ------- 23-Aug-2009 14:51:03-PDT,1332;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:45:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:35:49 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: programming manual needed To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14435457400.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:45:32 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: programming manual needed ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Is there some manual to be used for writing .MAC programs.. I remember writing code back in the version 5 days. Now I have to write modifications to smtjfn.mac to do "spamming" protection. We are receiving spam from "yahoo.com.tw" host. Now I can define that site to be rejected, but I want to put the list of hosts to reject into a file, so I can add and remove sites as needed. any help is grateful. --jsol ------- 24-Aug-2009 09:26:09-PDT,2143;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:20:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mailx.ultimate.com ([208.86.227.193]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 06:47:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from ultimate.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailx.ultimate.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n7ODlPn1010295 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from phil@ultimate.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ultimate.com; s=default; t=1251121645; bh=cGRhjSURBt1rfqRnwNcNamdPd8PqTdbiS58XY5T 7nfg=; h=Received:Date:From:Message-Id:To:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=yB 49FkA9qWqPtUiHIMZOqgyrfFtv7/p8REdAP35vF6IhkbD7n8poDy/TWrOHN4AQBtukq NEnUjgbq2Yfjh6wFVZuEAqT6zptAUtfL+RBS8GA4VjZA3rQOCfokv2vdxKgqTlqce1r cSizeT6UI68iQeE17VPy8L4F5CyIqNs7g20= X-Received: (from phil@localhost) by ultimate.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n7ODlPsp010294; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from phil) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Phil Budne Message-Id: <200908241347.n7ODlPsp010294@ultimate.com> To: JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com, tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: programming manual needed In-Reply-To: <14435457400.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:20:10 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: programming manual needed ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I think the best refresher would be looking at Ralph Gorin's "Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming" I saw PostScript files for it on-line (at XKL?) at some point; does anyone know if they're still available?? PostScript is easily converted to PDF (with GhostScript), which would be a comfortable way to read it on-line. Phil 24-Aug-2009 09:50:46-PDT,1068;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:40:27 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: Re: programming manual needed To: phil@ultimate.com cc: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM In-Reply-To: <200908241347.n7ODlPsp010294@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <14435665773.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:45:29 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: programming manual needed ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Does anyone know where I can pick up a hardcopy of the gorin manual? ------- 24-Aug-2009 10:12:41-PDT,1599;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:07:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: programming manual needed In-Reply-To: <14435665773.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14435665773.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:07:19 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: programming manual needed ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > Does anyone know where I can pick up a hardcopy of the gorin manual? http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Decsystem-20-Assembly-Language-Programming/dp/0932376126/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251132376&sr=1-1 -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 24-Aug-2009 12:10:21-PDT,1151;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:04:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:11:35 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: tops-20 assembly manual To: tops-20@LINGLING.PANDA.COM Message-ID: <14435682364.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:04:07 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: tops-20 assembly manual ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I need info about picking up a copy of the manual. Right now I can't use lynx... (it doesn't work well under my linux box). Can I send a check or money order to some place (the publisher, I guess) and order it for delivery. thanx --jsol ------- 24-Aug-2009 12:15:49-PDT,5977;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.aceinnovative.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:14:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from [192.168.2.201] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.aceinnovative.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n7OIETSV030856; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:14:30 -0400 Message-ID: <4A92D885.8070409@acedsl.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:14:29 -0400 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" CC: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: programming manual needed References: <14435457400.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> In-Reply-To: <14435457400.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:05:04 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: programming manual needed ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) J, For what it's worth, you may recall that I had to solve a somewhat similar (in spirit) problem a few years ago when I wrote a MACRO program to compute the set difference of two lists of machine names. The machine lists were approxmately five thousand entries in size at an average of 11 characters per machine name. At the time, I didn't have my copy of Knuth on me (it's SOMEWHERE), so I chose a binary search as the approach. From my undergraduate Data Structures class (1978!!), I remembered that this will give you 'reasonable' search speeds, particularly as lists get large (see above). But I also frankly admit that I used binary search because it was the only kind of search that I remembered how to implement! This was due in part to the fact that my extended mode FTP server does a LOT of COMND% keyword searches, TBLUK%, TBADD% and TBDEL%. So I was familiar with the concepts. I started with the TBLUK% table format as a model and then adapted it to my needs for increased speed and storage capacity. For example, a regular TBLUK% table can 'only' be a single section in length. Unlike TBLUK%, I used counted strings with one word global pointers--this enabled me to bum some instructions out of the compare loop and speed some things up. The program uses extended mode because I had wanted dynamic tables that could approach 30 sections in size. I thought that this was necessary given the anticipated size of the data sets that I was processing. It turns out that it was complete overkill. The keyword compare logic itself is modeled on STCMP% (surprised?) and uses case insensitive compares. As an aside, I had thought that there was an extended string instruction to do this--sort of a 'compare translated' (see MOVST) and was shocked to find that such a thing does NOT exist on the PDP-10. It does on the 360! SYSREF's recommendation is to use a MOVST first to upper case everything and then do the CMPSE. That won't work for read-only tables or can get you a large 'dirty' working set and burns up memory. I wanted every byte I could get for the pointer tables. Compare String Translated gets my vote for a new extended instruction. My sort code is slow, dog slow. Woof. Awful. I cringe at the thought of peer review. However, it special cases input files that are already sorted (which these data sets were). With input files of 43 and 37 pages respectively, I get a wall time 2.24 seconds and CPU time of 2.19 seconds. As my system was largely unloaded at the time that I ran the SETDIF fork, the processor Utilization was approxiately 97.53%. If you'd like a copy of the program, please e-mail me off list and I will be happy to send it to you. Like anything I write, it is copiously (some say overly) commented, some remarks being more useful and some being flat out obtuse. Sorry! I am unfortunately in no position to provide any mentoring or further explanation on it (I barely had time to write this) My immediate recommendation to you would be to look at the TBLUK%, TBDEL% and TBADD% Jsyi in the Monitor Calls Reference Manual (see section 3.244). The JSYS Users Guide unfortunately provides no examples. The Columbia Assembler Guide (da Cruz and Ryland) provides some excellent background (see section 5.1). Bear in mind that using these Jsyi may not provide acceptable performance for large lists. But I never bothered checking... Volume Three of Knuth's Art of Computer Programming (?), Sorting and Searching is not for the faint of heart... I *highly* recommend Gorin's book as imformative, instructive, readable and satisfying. It is an excellent pedagogical tool. You may wish to avoid SYSREF as your first line of inquiry. While I was in High School and as an undergraduate, it was one of the most effective non-chemical remedies for insomnia that I ever had. Reading tables of logarithms is now my tedium of choice... Kindest Regards, --T Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > Is there some manual to be used for writing .MAC programs.. I > remember writing code back in the version 5 days. Now I have to > write modifications to smtjfn.mac to do "spamming" protection. We > are receiving spam from "yahoo.com.tw" host. Now I can define that > site to be rejected, but I want to put the list of hosts to reject > into a file, so I can add and remove sites as needed. > > any help is grateful. > > --jsol > ------- > > 24-Aug-2009 12:21:08-PDT,2221;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:05:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail.xkl.com ([192.94.202.37]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:48:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from tardis.xkl.com (fw1-dmz.xkl.com [192.94.202.33]) by mail.xkl.com (8.14.1/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n7OImHOQ021718 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:48:19 -0700 X-Received: from obfuscation.xkl.com (obfuscation.xkl.com [10.10.0.198]) by tardis.xkl.com (8.14.1/8.13.3/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id n7OImFF6018037; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:48:17 -0700 Message-ID: <4A92E06E.4020801@xkl.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:48:14 -0700 From: Ralph Gorin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (X11/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" CC: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: programming manual needed References: <14435665773.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> In-Reply-To: <14435665773.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 192.94.202.37 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 10.1.0.29 ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:05:35 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: programming manual needed ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) It's not easy to find. ISBN 0932376126 Try Alibris Good luck, Ralph =========== The pdf is supposed to be available via anonymous login to toad.xkl.com. t20asm.pdf The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address. 24-Aug-2009 12:37:19-PDT,2250;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:32:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from aussmtpmrkpc120.us.dell.com ([143.166.82.159]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Loopcount0: from 12.110.134.31 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.44,267,1249275600"; d="scan'208";a="391262924" X-Received: from unknown (HELO M31.equallogic.com) ([12.110.134.31]) by aussmtpmrkpc120.us.dell.com with SMTP; 24 Aug 2009 14:22:03 -0500 Cc: tops-20@LINGLING.PANDA.COM Message-Id: <29D48E9D-54F1-49F4-A154-31DE45C8A8F2@mac.com> From: John Francini To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" In-Reply-To: <14435682364.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: Re: tops-20 assembly manual Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:22:01 -0400 References: <14435682364.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) X-Return-Path: francini@mac.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Aug 2009 19:21:57.0177 (UTC) FILETIME=[25677A90:01CA24F0] ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: tops-20 assembly manual ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) The problem is that it hasn't been published in quite some time. The link Mark sent was to Amazon's entry for the book, which lists 4 sellers who have it as a used book. You'd have to contact the sellers if you want to buy it independently of the Amazon.com aggregator. john On 24 Aug 2009, at 14:11, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > I need info about picking up a copy of the manual. Right now I can't > use lynx... (it doesn't work well under my linux box). > > Can I send a check or money order to some place (the publisher, > I guess) and order it for delivery. > > thanx > --jsol > ------- > 24-Aug-2009 14:36:27-PDT,2431;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:31:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:45:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F361F09C for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:45:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id B165624205; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:45:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@LINGLING.PANDA.COM In-reply-to: <29D48E9D-54F1-49F4-A154-31DE45C8A8F2@mac.com> (message from John Francini on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:22:01 -0400) Subject: Re: tops-20 assembly manual References: <14435682364.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> <29D48E9D-54F1-49F4-A154-31DE45C8A8F2@mac.com> Message-Id: <20090824204522.B165624205@panix5.panix.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:45:22 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:30:55 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: tops-20 assembly manual ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > From: John Francini > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:22:01 -0400 >> On 24 Aug 2009, at 14:11, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: >>> I need info about picking up a copy of the manual. Right now I can't >>> use lynx... (it doesn't work well under my linux box). >>> Can I send a check or money order to some place (the publisher, >>> I guess) and order it for delivery. > The problem is that it hasn't been published in quite some time. > The link Mark sent was to Amazon's entry for the book, which lists 4 > sellers who have it as a used book. You'd have to contact the sellers > if you want to buy it independently of the Amazon.com aggregator. The links at Amazon all list the book for about $42. I sent jsol a link from abebooks.com this morning for the one copy listed there at $67. toad.xkl.com refuses FTP connections, so Ralph's pointer there doesn't work. Rich 24-Aug-2009 17:04:38-PDT,2617;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from zipcon.net ([209.221.136.5]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: (qmail 7271 invoked by uid 4824); 24 Aug 2009 23:55:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20090824235523.7269.qmail@zipcon.net> Date: 24 Aug 2009 16:55:23 -0700 From: Patrick Scheible To: phil@ultimate.com CC: JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com, tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM, TOPS-20 Distribution: ; In-reply-to: <200908241347.n7ODlPsp010294@ultimate.com> (message from Phil Budne on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:25 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: programming manual needed References: <200908241347.n7ODlPsp010294@ultimate.com> ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:58:46 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: programming manual needed ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I downloaded the PostScript files for Ralph Gorin's book when they were available. I don't see them online now, but I haven't done an exhaustive search. I'm not sure if Ralph wants them redistributed. It's revised from the Digital Press edition. It includes changes for the KL-10 model B -- extended addressing, and a few other things. Alas, the cartoons at the beginning of each chapter had to go. In addition to Ralph's book you'll also want the Processor Reference Manual for the instruction set and the JSYS manual for the system calls. They are available online at bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/1982_ProcRefMan.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/V7/JSYS_REFERENCE.MEM.txt -- Patrick Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Phil Budne ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: programming manual needed ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I think the best refresher would be looking at Ralph Gorin's "Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming" I saw PostScript files for it on-line (at XKL?) at some point; does anyone know if they're still available?? PostScript is easily converted to PDF (with GhostScript), which would be a comfortable way to read it on-line. 24-Aug-2009 17:37:15-PDT,2183;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:31:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A1338E4C for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:25:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 0A9A224207; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:25:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@LINGLING.PANDA.COM Subject: Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming_ Message-Id: <20090825002523.0A9A224207@panix5.panix.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:25:22 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:31:44 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming_ ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) To All Who May Be Interested: Ralph has very kindly consented to allow us to make available the PDF of his book via anonymous FTP on our Toad-1. The system name is XKLeTen.PaulAllen.com and the IP address is [216.220.195.10]. The FTP daemon does a minor sanity check on the e-mail address entered at the Password: prompt, but we don't keep track of them. This is an 8-bit file, of course, so use whatever command you need to ensure that it remains so (Windows ftp client: "type tenex"; Unix ftp client: "tenex"). Let me know directly (don't bother the Tops-20 list, please) if you have problems with the transfer, and we'll figure it out together. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ (coming soon) 24-Aug-2009 17:42:24-PDT,2168;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:30:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84EB38E57 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:29:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id E0D1E24207; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:29:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM In-reply-to: <20090824235523.7269.qmail@zipcon.net> (message from Patrick Scheible on 24 Aug 2009 16:55:23 -0700) Subject: Re: programming manual needed References: <200908241347.n7ODlPsp010294@ultimate.com> <20090824235523.7269.qmail@zipcon.net> Message-Id: <20090825002959.E0D1E24207@panix5.panix.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:29:59 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:32:24 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: programming manual needed ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Date: 24 Aug 2009 16:55:23 -0700 > From: Patrick Scheible > In addition to Ralph's book you'll also want the Processor Reference > Manual for the instruction set and the JSYS manual for the system > calls. They are available online at bitsavers: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/1982_ProcRefMan.pdf > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/V7/JSYS_REFERENCE.MEM.txt The JSYS reference manual is also available on the PDPplanet/LCM Toad-1 in the DOC: directory. It can be looked at fairly simply with GNU emacs (invoked as "gnuemacs" rather than "emacs", which gets you the real deal^W^WMIT TECO EMACS). Rich 25-Aug-2009 11:11:53-PDT,2099;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:06:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:58:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9711F09B for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:58:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 3088324207; Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:58:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@LINGLING.PANDA.COM In-reply-to: <20090825002523.0A9A224207@panix5.panix.com> (message from Rich Alderson on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:25:22 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming_ References: <20090825002523.0A9A224207@panix5.panix.com> Message-Id: <20090825175827.3088324207@panix5.panix.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:58:27 -0400 (EDT) ReSent-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:05:57 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming_ ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) My apologies to all, and thanks to those who let me know there was a protections problem on the file. I have corrected that issue, and at the same time made the file name more obvious. You are looking for TOPS20_ASSEMBLER_PROGRAMMING.PDF. It's also been pointed out to me that Unix FTP clients default to extended passive mode these days. TOPS-20 FTP does not understand the EPSV protocol command, and returns a 500 error code. Please turn off passive mode before attempting to transfer the file. Rich 27-Oct-2009 15:09:39-PDT,982;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:05:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:44:32 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: cpu serial number To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14452498348.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:05:16 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: cpu serial number ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) can you tell me how to read the cpu number for my klh20 virtual machine? thanx, --jsol ------- 27-Oct-2009 15:35:42-PDT,1611;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:31:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:14:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: cpu serial number In-Reply-To: <14452498348.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14452498348.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:31:53 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: cpu serial number ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Tue, 27 Oct 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote: > can you tell me how to read the cpu number for my klh20 virtual machine? The same way you do on any other KL-class machine: with APRID. This instruction requires either exec mode or User I/O mode. In user code, you use the CNFIG% JSYS. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 27-Oct-2009 15:59:20-PDT,1114;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:55:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:49:19 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: this seems broken.... To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14452510139.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:55:31 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: this seems broken.... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I just want to get the cpu number for my machine... here's what I wrote after checking doc:7-jsys.man for the cnfig jsys. SEARCH MONSYM SEARCH MACSYM start: movei 1,0 movei 2,11 cnfig% EXIT END START ------- 27-Oct-2009 16:02:55-PDT,1114;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from xkleten.paulallen.com ([216.220.195.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:49:19 -0700 From: Jonathan A. Solomon Subject: this seems broken.... To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Message-ID: <14452510139.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> ReSent-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: this seems broken.... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I just want to get the cpu number for my machine... here's what I wrote after checking doc:7-jsys.man for the cnfig jsys. SEARCH MONSYM SEARCH MACSYM start: movei 1,0 movei 2,11 cnfig% EXIT END START ------- 27-Oct-2009 16:12:50-PDT,1448;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:02:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: this seems broken.... In-Reply-To: <14452510139.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> Message-ID: References: <14452510139.9.JSOL@xkleten.paulallen.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:09:06 -0700 (PDT) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: this seems broken.... ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) CNFIG% works (I personally verified it), but your program is broken. Don't skim the documentation; read the documentation. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 3-Nov-2009 13:18:18-PST,2154;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:14:20 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FD51F085 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:01:48 -0500 (EST) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 1C78924258; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:01:48 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? Message-Id: <20091103210148.1C78924258@panix5.panix.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:01:48 -0500 (EST) ReSent-Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:14:12 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) (I phrase the subject question that way to avoid the arguments over whether microcoded versions are or are not "really" PDP-10 systems.) I know that there were 23 PDP-6 systems built, from multiple presumably independent sources, but Bell, McNamara & Mudge should be authoritative enough for anyone. I'd like to get (rough) numbers for how many KA10, KI10, KL10 and KS10 systems were built, for completeness' sake on our new web site. This information is readily available for the 18- and 12-bit systems, and not hard to get for 16- and 32-bit systems. So why isn't there a repository with the numbers for the 36-bit family? Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Living Computer Museum Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA@vulcan.com mailto:RichA@LivingComputerMuseum.org 3-Nov-2009 13:32:32-PST,1885;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:28:30 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:23:13 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Rich Alderson cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? In-Reply-To: <20091103210148.1C78924258@panix5.panix.com> Message-ID: References: <20091103210148.1C78924258@panix5.panix.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:28:21 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > I'd like to get (rough) numbers for how many KA10, KI10, KL10 and KS10 > systems were built Based upon serial numbers: Known KA10 serial numbers are from 1 to 274. Known KI10 serial numbers are from 514 to 769. Known KL10 (-10 style) serial numbers are from 1025 to 1449, with a reported outlier at 1992. Known KL10 (-20 style) serial numbers are from 2101 to 3536. Known KS10 serial numbers are from 4097 to 4664. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 3-Nov-2009 13:51:39-PST,3373;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:48:06 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mailgate2.vulcan.com ([216.220.192.139]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:41:50 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from 505darwin.corp.vnw.com ([10.0.100.188]) by mailgate2.vulcan.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:41:44 -0800 X-Received: from RUMBLE.corp.vnw.com ([10.0.100.132]) by 505darwin.corp.vnw.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:41:44 -0800 X-Received: from 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com ([10.0.100.170]) by RUMBLE.corp.vnw.com ([10.0.100.132]) with mapi; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:41:43 -0800 From: Rich Alderson To: 'Mark Crispin' CC: "'tops-20@lingling.panda.com'" Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:41:43 -0800 Subject: RE: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? Thread-Topic: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? Thread-Index: AcpczDsYbkhGdPqiQE6c9GLH75aY2wAAaJvw Message-ID: References: <20091103210148.1C78924258@panix5.panix.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Return-Path: RichA@vulcan.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2009 21:41:44.0953 (UTC) FILETIME=[703CC690:01CA5CCE] ReSent-Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:47:43 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: RE: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Hi, Mark, Do we know if there were gaps in the list? That adds up to 2959 systems (i= n accord with a figure I remember from a DECUS presentation of ~3000 which = I have heard pooh-poohed by knowledgeable folks). The biggest number is 14= 00+ KL10 based DEC-20s, which seems excessive in these latter days. Thanks, Rich -----Original Message----- From: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com [mailto:mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com] On Behalf = Of Mark Crispin Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 1:23 PM To: Rich Alderson Cc: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > I'd like to get (rough) numbers for how many KA10, KI10, KL10 and KS10 > systems were built Based upon serial numbers: Known KA10 serial numbers are from 1 to 274. Known KI10 serial numbers are from 514 to 769. Known KL10 (-10 style) serial numbers are from 1025 to 1449, with a=20 reported outlier at 1992. Known KL10 (-20 style) serial numbers are from 2101 to 3536. Known KS10 serial numbers are from 4097 to 4664. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 3-Nov-2009 14:14:01-PST,2404;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:10:20 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:04:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:04:53 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Rich Alderson cc: "'tops-20@lingling.panda.com'" Subject: RE: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20091103210148.1C78924258@panix5.panix.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:10:12 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: RE: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > Do we know if there were gaps in the list? That adds up to 2959 systems > (in accord with a figure I remember from a DECUS presentation of ~3000 > which I have heard pooh-poohed by knowledgeable folks). I see no reason not to believe that there were about 3000 36-bit systems built by Digital. Who is pooh-poohing that number? Some historical revisionist that wants people to believe that the PDP-10 wasn't important? > The biggest > number is 1400+ KL10 based DEC-20s, which seems excessive in these latter > days. I see no reason not to believe that there were 400-odd KL10 based DEC-10s and 1400-odd KL10-based DEC-20s (not to be confused with the number of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 systems). I've been to service bureaus that had multiple buildings full of KLs. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 3-Nov-2009 17:41:36-PST,2857;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:37:44 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:26:16 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56CE538E4C for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:26:09 -0500 (EST) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id 3FC6E24259; Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:26:09 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com In-reply-to: (message from Mark Crispin on Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:04:53 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? References: <20091103210148.1C78924258@panix5.panix.com> Message-Id: <20091104012609.3FC6E24259@panix5.panix.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:26:09 -0500 (EST) ReSent-Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:37:31 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:04:53 -0800 (PST) > From: Mark Crispin > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Do we know if there were gaps in the list? That adds up to 2959 systems >> (in accord with a figure I remember from a DECUS presentation of ~3000 >> which I have heard pooh-poohed by knowledgeable folks). > I see no reason not to believe that there were about 3000 36-bit systems > built by Digital. > Who is pooh-poohing that number? Some historical revisionist that wants > people to believe that the PDP-10 wasn't important? No, it was a respected member of the 36-bit community. >> The biggest number is 1400+ KL10 based DEC-20s, which seems excessive in >> these latter days. > I see no reason not to believe that there were 400-odd KL10 based DEC-10s > and 1400-odd KL10-based DEC-20s (not to be confused with the number of > TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 systems). > I've been to service bureaus that had multiple buildings full of KLs. I suppose that I felt the number was large based on the lack of fossils only 10 years after the end, but that's probably the preservationist in me. Thanks, Rich 5-Nov-2009 17:26:18-PST,4275;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:22:00 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail-ew0-f220.google.com ([209.85.219.220]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:55:34 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by ewy20 with SMTP id 20so650252ewy.40 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:55:27 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.213.100.167 with SMTP id y39mr249162ebn.59.1257468927539; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:55:27 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from ?204.238.239.102? (adsl-71-141-131-18.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [71.141.131.18]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 10sm7738209eyz.27.2009.11.05.16.55.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:55:26 -0800 (PST) Cc: Rich Alderson , "'tops-20@lingling.panda.com'" Message-Id: <655E0FB3-F040-42D9-9936-0B4D77C7D822@restarea.com> From: Carl Baltrunas To: Mark Crispin In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:55:17 -0800 References: <20091103210148.1C78924258@panix5.panix.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) ReSent-Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:21:53 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I'll have to agree with Mark here. We had 54 PDP-10 systems running Tymcom-X or Tymcom-XX, and although three of those were Foonley F3s the rest were KI, KL and KSs. At the same time, there were at least eleven (11) Office machines running August/Augment, at least two of which I knew to be KA-10s with BBN pagers, and many Foonley F4s. I would think however many Office systems were in the cupertino data center on Bubb road were all KAs and the F4s were at the Valley Green Drive labs, and the Fremont Liberty site after we moved out of Valley Green in 1984. Bill Soley might remember how many KAs were running Augment, if you really want to know. As for counts of how many Foonleys, or 26KLs as McDonnell Douglas called them, I don't know if anyone is around who knows how many there were. Possibly one of the network people who developed the LSI-11 network interface nodes for the F3 and F4s might remember, but I somehow doubt it. I know we had 3 F3s as system numbers 930, 934 and 62, but I have no idea what the serial numbers were. -Carl On Nov 3, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Do we know if there were gaps in the list? That adds up to 2959 >> systems >> (in accord with a figure I remember from a DECUS presentation of >> ~3000 >> which I have heard pooh-poohed by knowledgeable folks). > > I see no reason not to believe that there were about 3000 36-bit > systems built by Digital. > > Who is pooh-poohing that number? Some historical revisionist that > wants people to believe that the PDP-10 wasn't important? > >> The biggest >> number is 1400+ KL10 based DEC-20s, which seems excessive in these >> latter >> days. > > I see no reason not to believe that there were 400-odd KL10 based > DEC-10s and 1400-odd KL10-based DEC-20s (not to be confused with the > number of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 systems). > > I've been to service bureaus that had multiple buildings full of KLs. > > -- Mark -- > > http://panda.com/tops-20 > TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors > 6-Nov-2009 10:16:52-PST,2646;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:12:55 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from b.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.19.5]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from newshell.sonic.net (bolt.sonic.net [208.201.242.19]) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id nA6HQ4eA003196 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:26:04 -0800 X-Received: from bolt.sonic.net (IDENT:B70uMkZZKdERdo7hu/D2tMQmh/kVXLsC@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by newshell.sonic.net (8.13.6/8.12.1) with ESMTP id nA6HQ4ro029444 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:26:04 -0800 X-Received: from localhost (fw@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.13.6/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id nA6HQ4qc029441 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:26:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: bolt.sonic.net: fw owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:26:04 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Wright X-X-Sender: fw@bolt.sonic.net To: tops-20@Lingling.Panda.COM Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? In-Reply-To: <655E0FB3-F040-42D9-9936-0B4D77C7D822@restarea.com> Message-ID: References: <20091103210148.1C78924258@panix5.panix.com> <655E0FB3-F040-42D9-9936-0B4D77C7D822@restarea.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:12:47 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, Carl Baltrunas wrote: [...] > three of those were Foonley F3s the rest were KI, KL and KSs. At the [...] As someone who worked on the Super Foonly project at SAIL, I can state authoritatively that the correct spelling is "Foonly", not "Foonley". :-) The word originated when Phil Pettit was debugging an early version of FAIL. He typed in "foo"; then FAIL responded with "nly" and JRSTed 4. Fred Wright 29-Nov-2009 00:34:54-PST,3920;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:30:51 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.aceinnovative.com ([66.114.74.12]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:35:45 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from [192.168.2.7] (p69-214.acedsl.com [66.114.69.214]) by mail1.aceinnovative.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nAT1Zce9006994 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:35:39 -0500 Message-ID: <4B11CFEA.4020906@acedsl.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:35:38 -0500 From: Thomas DeBellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: KLH10 front-end reload?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:30:44 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: KLH10 front-end reload?? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Tommy Timesharing hung earlier today; it had been up over a 175 days. I got an error around 1:27PM-EST that the front end had hung and was rebooted. By the time I noticed at 4:08, the system was completely wedged. I couldn't get in on the CTY, but KLH10 appeared to be working. However, in the process of poking around, I completely destroyed some information, so I am unable to determine exactly what was going on. Sigh... As I had been up since early June (and the middle of March before that because of a power failure), this does not appear to be of immediate concern. The system had not had a single issue during all this time (not even a BUGINF) However ... Ideas, anyone? Should I think about getting nervous? I mean, there IS no front-end on KLH10, right? ________________________________________________________________________ ************************************************************************ TOPS-20 BUGHLT-BUGCHK Logged on Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:27:08 Monitor uptime was 175 days 19:54:26 Detected on system # 3699. Record sequence number: 17527. ************************************************************************ Error information: Date/Time of error: Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:27:05 Errors since reload: 1. Fork # & Job #: 777777,777777 User's logged in dir: unknown Program name: Error: BUGINF Address of error: 1137031 Name: DTEKPA Description: DTE keep alive fail CONI APR: 007740,,000003 = No error bits detected CONI PAG: 000000,,660151 DATAI PAG: 700101,,002750 Contents of ACs: 0: 000000,,575700 1: 777777,,000000 2: 000000,,000000 3: 000000,,277242 4: 000100,,206260 5: 000000,,247445 6: 000000,,000000 7: 000000,,000000 10: 777775,,000002 11: 000000,,000000 12: 000000,,614101 13: 777772,,000012 14: 777777,,777650 15: 777305,,353304 16: 620012,,000000 17: 777115,,246540 PI status: 000000,,000175 Additional data items: 1 000000,,000000 ERA: 000000,,000000 = word #0 Memory read Base phyiscal memory address at failure: 0 ************************************************************************ FRONT END RELOADED Logged on Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:28:04 Monitor uptime was 175 days 19:55:21 Detected on system # 3699. Record sequence number: 17528. ************************************************************************ CPU # :,,Front end #: 0,0 Status at reload: No error bits detected Retries: 3 Filename for DUMP: 0DMP11.BIN.1,28-Nov-2009 13:27:05 29-Nov-2009 11:25:03-PST,5526;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:21:20 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:20:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:20:46 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Thomas DeBellis cc: Tops-20 Wizards Subject: Re: KLH10 front-end reload?? In-Reply-To: <4B11CFEA.4020906@acedsl.com> Message-ID: References: <4B11CFEA.4020906@acedsl.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:21:11 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 front-end reload?? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) KLH10 implements enough for the front end DTE protocol for TOPS-20 to think that it is talking to a front end, albeit one with just a CTY (no KLINIK, DL11 lines, or DECnet). There is a keepalive timer in both TOPS-20 (to reboot the front end when the front end crashes) and in RSX-11F (to reboot TOPS-20 when it crashes). The front end also keeps time well enough to set TOPS-20's clock following a crash-reboot; this is superceded in KLH10 as the timebase instructions get the time from the host OS. In addition, Panda monitors try to run a program called TIMCHK which will synchronize with NTP servers. So, what happened was that the DTE protocol stopped for some reason. TOPS-20 tried to reboot the front end in an attempt to get it going, but of course that was futile. Here's something that may help: On some Linux systems the esoteric real-time interrupt mechanisms in KLH10 don't work well. So, it may be necessary to set KLH10_ITIME_SYNC instead of the default KLH10_ITIME_INTRP. Note that doing so will make KLH10 burn much more CPU on the host system. Usually, though, if you need to do this, it becomes pretty obvious at once, with nasty DTE errors from KLH10 shortly after booting (and any time you type on the CTY). One reason why I haven't upgraded Lingling's host CPU is that most of the newer machines that I've run KLH10 on have required doing this. It's quite annoying. On Sat, 28 Nov 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote: > Tommy Timesharing hung earlier today; it had been up over a 175 days. > I got an error around 1:27PM-EST that the front end had hung and was > rebooted. By the time I noticed at 4:08, the system was completely > wedged. > > I couldn't get in on the CTY, but KLH10 appeared to be working. > However, in the process of poking around, I completely destroyed some > information, so I am unable to determine exactly what was going on. > Sigh... > > As I had been up since early June (and the middle of March before that > because of a power failure), this does not appear to be of immediate > concern. The system had not had a single issue during all this time > (not even a BUGINF) > > However ... Ideas, anyone? Should I think about getting nervous? I > mean, there IS no front-end on KLH10, right? > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > ************************************************************************ > TOPS-20 BUGHLT-BUGCHK > Logged on Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:27:08 Monitor uptime was 175 days 19:54:26 > Detected on system # 3699. > Record sequence number: 17527. > ************************************************************************ > > Error information: > Date/Time of error: Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:27:05 > Errors since reload: 1. > Fork # & Job #: 777777,777777 > User's logged in dir: unknown > Program name: > Error: BUGINF > Address of error: 1137031 > Name: DTEKPA > Description: DTE keep alive fail > CONI APR: 007740,,000003 = No error bits detected > CONI PAG: 000000,,660151 > DATAI PAG: 700101,,002750 > Contents of ACs: > 0: 000000,,575700 > 1: 777777,,000000 > 2: 000000,,000000 > 3: 000000,,277242 > 4: 000100,,206260 > 5: 000000,,247445 > 6: 000000,,000000 > 7: 000000,,000000 > 10: 777775,,000002 > 11: 000000,,000000 > 12: 000000,,614101 > 13: 777772,,000012 > 14: 777777,,777650 > 15: 777305,,353304 > 16: 620012,,000000 > 17: 777115,,246540 > PI status: 000000,,000175 > Additional data items: 1 > 000000,,000000 > > ERA: 000000,,000000 = word #0 Memory read > Base phyiscal memory > address at failure: 0 > > ************************************************************************ > FRONT END RELOADED > Logged on Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:28:04 Monitor uptime was 175 days 19:55:21 > Detected on system # 3699. > Record sequence number: 17528. > ************************************************************************ > CPU # :,,Front end #: 0,0 > Status at reload: No error bits detected > Retries: 3 > Filename for DUMP: 0DMP11.BIN.1,28-Nov-2009 13:27:05 > > -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 29-Nov-2009 12:47:03-PST,1910;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:43:00 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.17]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:39:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from Macintosh.local ([96.231.203.19]) by vms173017.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KTW00DF51D94SQH@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> for TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:39:09 -0600 (CST) Message-id: <4B12DBED.2000903@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:39:09 -0500 From: bob smith Reply-to: Bob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 SeaMonkey/2.0 MIME-version: 1.0 To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers Subject: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:42:51 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) I have not looked at it in depth yet, just starting. I am curious as to whether any of TOPS-20/PDP10 folks have looked at it and what your opinion is. The hype aside, a lean OS sure strikes a cord with me, I have not looked at what services are embedded and what they really do, recognizing it is intended for Web use and access, I am going to be interested in the underlying capabilities. thanks bob -- it is what it is. 29-Nov-2009 12:59:46-PST,1945;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:56:05 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:53:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:53:00 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: bob smith cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? In-Reply-To: <4B12DBED.2000903@verizon.net> Message-ID: References: <4B12DBED.2000903@verizon.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ReSent-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:55:58 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, bob smith wrote: > I have not looked at it in depth yet, just starting. I am curious > as to whether any of TOPS-20/PDP10 folks have looked at it and > what your opinion is. I am certain that, whatever features Chrome has in it, it will be optimized towards presenting as much advertising as possible to my unwilling eyeballs. Google is not interested in making cool new products. Google is only interested in maximizing its delivery of advertising. That is its entire business model. Any and all products it produces are designed to further that model. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 29-Nov-2009 13:05:10-PST,2629;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:01:39 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.17]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:57:54 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from Macintosh.local ([96.231.203.19]) by vms173017.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-7.04 (built Sep 26 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPA id <0KTW009C32889A2Q@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net>; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:57:45 -0600 (CST) Message-id: <4B12E048.4060606@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:57:44 -0500 From: bob smith Reply-to: Bob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 SeaMonkey/2.0 MIME-version: 1.0 To: Mark Crispin Cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? References: <4B12DBED.2000903@verizon.net> In-reply-to: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:01:29 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Mark Crispin wrote: > On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, bob smith wrote: >> I have not looked at it in depth yet, just starting. I am curious >> as to whether any of TOPS-20/PDP10 folks have looked at it and >> what your opinion is. > > I am certain that, whatever features Chrome has in it, it will be > optimized towards presenting as much advertising as possible to my > unwilling eyeballs. > > Google is not interested in making cool new products. Google is only > interested in maximizing its delivery of advertising. That is its > entire business model. Any and all products it produces are designed > to further that model. > > -- Mark -- > > http://panda.com/tops-20 > TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors > Mark, as usual you cut right to the point - I agree of course - but looking beyond that at the chromium OS release, and the descriptions... hmmm... digging into the code a little. thanks! bob -- it is what it is. 29-Nov-2009 13:47:43-PST,1918;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:44:01 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from vsta.org ([208.70.148.177]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:11:55 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from deepthought.vsta.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vsta.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE22AD002 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:11:49 -0800 (PST) To: TOPS-20@Lingling.Panda.COM From: Andy Valencia Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:57:44 EST." <4B12E048.4060606@verizon.net> Message-Id: <20091129211149.6FE22AD002@vsta.org> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:11:49 -0800 (PST) ReSent-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:43:51 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) -------- [bob smith writes:] > as usual you cut right to the point - I agree of course - but looking > beyond that > at the chromium OS release, and the descriptions... hmmm... digging into > the code a little. I understood it to be a browser--their Chrome one--running on a Linux kernel. They apparently plan to implement pretty strict control over configuration changes to the system. But, at a design level, you're looking at a user mode app running on a Linux kernel. The goal of having all your actual work being done via a web session may be innovative, but the system used to implement these stations does not strike me as being very interesting. Andy Valencia 29-Nov-2009 14:36:39-PST,2926;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:32:53 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:15:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:14:57 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? In-Reply-To: <20091129211149.6FE22AD002@vsta.org> Message-ID: References: <20091129211149.6FE22AD002@vsta.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:32:46 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it? ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, Andy Valencia wrote: > I understood it to be a browser--their Chrome one--running on a Linux > kernel. They apparently plan to implement pretty strict control over > configuration changes to the system. Sounds a lot like the original iPhone with the "everything can/should be a webapp" mentality. Even now iPhone is still a walled garden. The problem that I have with this, and many other "cloud" notions, is that it represents a reversion to the situation, before the PC revolution, when the IT department (a.k.a. "computer center") controlled everything. Not only that, but the IT department is now another company which may not necessarily have your best interests in mind. Unlike client/server, the cloud user gives up all control. Everything, including the user experience, is dictated by the cloud provider. This is a critical point, because client/server is designed to strip the provider of control over the user experience whereas cloud does quite the opposite. This has been tried before. Remember diskless workstations in the 1980s? What use is being made of your data by the cloud provider? FB, GMail, Hotmail, etc. make no secret about prowling through your data to target advertising to you. What other use might they make? What about access by others? Competitors? Hackers? Espionage? Who can subpoena your data in the cloud? Is it a wider set that can subpoena your data kept on your own faciltiies? The lure of the cloud is obvious - it's "free" - but just how much do you pay for this "free" service? -- Mark -- http://panda.com/tops-20 TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors 20-Dec-2009 00:18:53-PST,1349;000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 00:15:02 -0800 (PST) X-Return-Path: X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 00:10:03 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6DE71F08C for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:09:57 -0500 (EST) X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662) id B6C0724220; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:09:57 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Alderson To: tops-20@lingling.panda.com Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! Message-Id: <20091220080957.B6C0724220@panix5.panix.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:09:57 -0500 (EST) ReSent-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 00:14:53 -0800 (PST) ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ; ReSent-Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day! ReSent-Message-ID: ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Long live our favourite operating system and the hardware that supports it! Rich