Nancy,  the concept of carrying fire around and the concept of creating burnable 
charcole-wood to make it easy to start a next fire from a previous fire - needs 
to be seporated out in the following post.

Carry Embers http://www.zetatalk.com/info/tinfo20y.htm 

One could be called "creating fire starting materals" or "fire starting 
materals" or possably it goes under your "starting a fire" the other "carry 
embers" as you have it. 

"Carry Embers" would then be changed to be the following:

The movie "In search of Fire" Illustrated a method of
caring fire from one place to another. I think with some trial an error one 
could make something that might work, made out of a paint bucket. The trick 
would be to allow in just enough air to keep it burning but not so much as to 
consume all the dry wood you carry. A small slot near the bottom and top that 
can be bent open or closed to adjust the air flow may work. The technology of 
taking a glowing ember and making a fire out of it will need to be relearned 
well by all. 

You may need to carry a set of light weight but long tongs or a way of handling 
or lifting and moving logs while burning. This could also be used to help adjust 
the fire to keep it going.
 

    Offered by Mike. 

If the amount of material is enough I think this concept would work and an extra 
gallon paint can full of these burning embers wouldn't be heavy, as the water in 
the wood would have already boiled away. I've never had a problem lifting 
burning embers, and do this by just using a stick. If an actual "holding" 
capability is required, one can use a stick in each hand or even make tongs by 
loosely tying the "hand" end of two sticks together. This is how "cooking rocks" 
are moved to and from a fire.

    Offered by Ron.

------------------------------------------------------  

For "Fire Starting Materals" or whatever this turns out be - you could use:


The so called dry wood that was close to the fire may not be all that dry but 
the wood and charcoal that was in the fire should be easier to start burning 
again. This very dry wood and charcoal then can be carried to the next 
encampment and used to make it much easier to start the next fire.

Put small burning pieces and hot coals into a 1 to 5 gallon steel paint can and 
close the lid. Any other steel container would also work. The fire will go out 
almost immediately (say within 30 sec) once the container is closed.  No oxygen 
to feed the fire.  Carry this to the next encampment to help start the next 
fire. 

If the lid is completely air tight, the tin can could
collapse when the hot gases cool. A small hole punched on the side near the top 
will keep a vacuum from forming. The can could have charcoal dust, sand or a bit 
of dry dirt in the bottom to help keep the metal from getting too hot. 

    Offered by Mike. 


I think that if you can fill your two empty paint cans which are part of the 
portable water still with the appropriate material from the fire that this would 
be all that is necessary to get the next one going.  In fact, in two of the 
survival field trips I attended, I was able to start a fire using the "bow 
drill" technique with ONLY charcoal powder for "starting tender".

    Offered by Ron.




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Source data posts follow -----------------------------------
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Subject: Re: [tt-forum] Re: Pre/Post PS On Foot and the Backpack
      Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:25:00 -0700
      From:         

Ron Darby wrote:

> The main problem I see with starting and maintaining a fire in the aftertime
> is the soaked muddy ground.  A solution could be to carry a metal garbage
> can lid and the fire built on it when inverted. 

I believe the so called dry wood laying around on the ground in the
continuous rain, will most probably be soaked completely through to the
center, after say the first week to month or so.  I have been thinking
to use the current fire to dry wood for the next fire by piling it
around the fire you built.  In general keeping it close but not close
enough to burn. This would help the spiting and sputtering of the fire
by keeping it contained. 

This dry wood would then be carried to the next encampment to help start
the next fire.  The rule would be don't burn all your dry wood at one
place and time.  I think wood chopped into slivers will dry faster than
a log with the bark still protecting it.  

To put out the current fire.  Put small burning pieces and hot coals
into a 1 to 5 gallon steel paint can and close the lid.  An old wide
mouth gas can would work if completely aired out of all gasoline.  A
surplus steel ammo or ammunition can would be a bit heavy to carry but
would be excellent.  With no air the fire will soon suffocate.  If the
lid is air tight, the can could collapse when the hot gases cool. A
small hole punched on the side near the top will keep a vacuum from
forming.  If you punch the hole in the top led, water could collect from
rain and run into it.  Most tops are recessed and will collect water if
the can is setting upright.  The can could have charcoal dust, sand or a
bit of dry dirt in the bottom to help keep the metal from getting too
hot and warping. This hot can could be given to the coldest member of
the bucket so as to help keep them warm until it cools off.  If a log is
too long to fit the can, chop the burning end off, and place it in the
can, carry the rest of the log if it has dried.

You may need to carry a set of light weight but long tongs or a way of
handling or lifting and moving logs while burning.  This would be used
to help adjust the fire to keep it going and to put out the fire as
described above.  
   






      Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:52:24 -0700
      From:  
> If all one needs to do is put out the current fire, just overturn the metal
> base so the remains are laying in the mud and use your entrinching tool to
> cover what's left with mud.  I see no reason at all to carry the burning
> embers till they die.  One may wish to carry burning embers with which to
> start the next fire, though.

I see I failed to communicate a key concept.  The fire will go out
almost immediately (say within 30 sec) once the container is closed.  No
oxygen to feed the fire.   This extra dry wood and charcoal then can be
carried to the next encampment and used to make it much easier to start
the next fire.  The so called dry wood that was close to the fire may
not be all that dry but this wood and charcoal that was close to the
fire should be easier to start burning again.   Remember we have no dry
leaves or news paper to help start the next fire.


      Date: 
           Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:37:22 -0500
      From: 
           "Ron 
 


----- Original Message -----
From:  
To: <tt-forum
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 1999 11:52 AM
Subject: [tt-forum] Re: Pre/Post PS On Foot and the Backpack


>
> I see I failed to communicate a key concept.  The fire will go out
> almost immediately (say within 30 sec) once the container is closed.  No
> oxygen to feed the fire.   This extra dry wood and charcoal then can be
> carried to the next encampment and used to make it much easier to start
> the next fire.  The so called dry wood that was close to the fire may
> not be all that dry but this wood and charcoal that was close to the
> fire should be easier to start burning again.   Remember we have no dry
> leaves or news paper to help start the next fire.

Yes, I did miss your point, which is an excellent one.  I think that if
you
can fill your two empty paint cans which are part of the portable water
still with the appropriate material from the fire that this would be all
that is necessary to get the next one going.  In fact, in two of the
survival field trips I attended, I was able to start a fire using the
"bow
drill" technique with ONLY charcole powder for "starting tender".  This
is
also a good reason to carry some amount of cotton material in your pack
inside a zip lock bag.  Charred cotton is the very best "starting
tender"
I've ever used or heard about.  On many occasions I've been able to
start a
fire using a small piece of charred cotton cloth as the "starting
tender"
with a single spark.

> You brought up an interesting concept during this conversation. The
> possibility of carrying your fire with you. The movie "In search of
> Fire" Illustrated a method of caring fire from one place to another.  I
> think with some trial an error one could make something that might work,
> made out of a paint bucket.  The trick would be to allow in just enough
> air to keep it burning but not so much as to consume all the dry wood
> you carry.  A small slot near the bottom and top that can be bent open
> or closed to adjust the air flow may work.  The technology of taking a
> glowing ember and making a fire out of it will need to be relearned well
> by all.

If the amount of material is enough I think this concepe would work and
an
extra gallon paint can full of this burning ember wouldn't be heavy, as
the
water in the wood would have already boiled away.

>
> Remember any fire whether carried or at night to warm and cook with
> could dangerously attract unwanted visitors in the vicinity.  These
> things can be seen for long distances.  One ultimately needs to balance
> the dangers of exposure against the need of a fire.

I agree and made a point of conceling your campsight in my initial post.
The other thing is smoke, but in the aftertime with almost constant
rain,
the rain will keep the smoke from going very far from your campsight.

One thing that I've been meaning to mention is that one should carry a
water
filter capable of removing harmful biological organisms, or use a
chemical
such as iodine to kill them for use in an emergency (where you need
water
but are too exposed to distill with a campfire).  The filter won't
remove
the lead, but if lead containing water is consumed only very
infrequently,
it is safe to drink.  It is the long term buildup of lead in the system
that
is ultimately fatal.  I think we are going to get some lead anyway when
eating insects and small animals a while after the PS, as they will have
some lead in them.

Ron

