		BEST VEGY

From: dsgood@visi.com (Dan Goodman)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: best nutritional vegitables.
Date: 30 Dec 1996 00:27:33 GMT

In article <5a6t72$p9r$35@news.campus.mci.net ,
shannon wagoner <shannon@som-uky.campus.mci.net  wrote:

 what are the 2 or 3 vegitables that provide the most complete
 nutrition, (ie a body could live off these for 1-2 years eating these
 exclusively with water)
 
You _can_ live almost exclusively on potatoes -- provided they haven't
been stored long enough for their vitamin C content to go below the
British required daily dose.  (The British equivalent of RDA for vitamin C
is noticeably less than the American RDA -- I don't remember by how much.)
A lot of people in Ireland _did_ live almost entirely on potatoes till the
Famine.

But even supplemented by a couple of other vegetables, I for one would get
very tired of it.  After a few months, I would probably try dandelion
greens and whatever else I knew was edible for a change.  After a year, I
suspect I would start looking hungrily at poison ivy.

Dan Goodman  dsgood@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From: hes@eos.ncsu.edu (Henry E Schaffer)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: best nutritional vegitables.
Date: 30 Dec 1996 15:48:26 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

You _can_ live almost exclusively on potatoes -- provided they haven't
been stored long enough for their vitamin C content to go below the
British required daily dose.  ...

Can they really provide sufficient amounts of *balanced* protein?

A lot of people in Ireland _did_ live almost entirely on potatoes till the
Famine.

From what I've read - potatoes were their main source of calories, not
their only source of protein, minerals and vitamins.

From: shannon@som-uky.campus.mci.net (shannon wagoner)

But even supplemented by a couple of other vegetables, I for one would get
very tired of it.  After a few months, I would probably try dandelion greens 
and whatever else I knew was edible for a change.  After a year, I
suspect I would start looking hungrily at poison ivy.

i had also received a suggestion of "the 3 sistes" beans, corn, and
squash, that plus potatoes, might be simple enough to grow (for
starter) enough to get you by until you become skilled enough to try
more "exotic" vegi's :)

From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d)

   Hummm why, in most temperate climates,  you can gain a lot
by using various crops fitting the seasons, but you need more
than 2 or 3.... vegetables like radishes and peas are good
in spring,  corn, beans , tomatoes for the summer, cabbage,
winter squash and dry corn and beans for the fall and into the
winter.  (then if you follow some traditions, you fast from
mid Jan till April)

If you are really interested in getting the best scientific
answer to your question,  there are computational techniques
using linear programming to compute  "least cost", " or best fit" rations.   

Any university with agricultural economics or animal husbandry classes 
probably has a program and data sets....

hese programs have been applied to human nutrition and
grocery store supplies,  I don't recall the full menu but
one shown when I was taking the class was heavy in 
cabbages and dryed beans.

The other modern aspect , include a multivitamin/mineral
pill and it really simplifies the problem.  :-)  Les DeGroff

From: XXX@XXX.XXX (Mr. E. Mann)

I suggest you read Thoreau's "Walden".  Marvelous lessons from an
original minimalist.

Also good is "The Good Life", by Scott and Helen Nearing.  They lived
almost completely disconnected from modern society and economy since
the 30's.  Their book is full of valuable information, though you do
have to endure their illogical communist philosophy which winds
through many of the chapters.

Nevertheless, the book, despite this wholly unnecessary part, does
provide a rich supply of advice for anyone interested in the "good
life".

From: meglos@aol.com (Meglos)

Very easy question to answer: Sweet Potato - *not* common potato. Sweet
Potato is superior in every respect to white potato - nutrition, storage,
ease of cultivation, freedom from disease & insects etc. Not recognized as
a food plant by a passing hungry mod either! Finn

From: Chuck Marsh <marsh@denver-rmn.com>

I don't think there is any such set of vegetables. You cover your
nutritional bets much better by eating a wider variety. If you are
raising the vegs yourself, note that a diverse garden is a more reliable
food source, because if one or two varieties get wiped out you still
have the rest.

Don't overlook garden pests (rabbits, deer, etc.) as potential food
source in an emergency. When they come to check out the goodies...
well, you get the drift.

From: mgilbert@pclink.com (Bob Gilbert)

Just a personal opinion or two.

Human meat is very similar to pork, so is monkey meat.  There is a
reason for the old term of referring to human's as "Long Pork".

Human's, biologically, are omnivore's, period.  I have no complaint if
someone choses to be a vegatarian as a matter of personal philosophy,
religious belief, or simple dietary preference.  But keep the
arguments in favor of vegatarianism based on something resembling
actual science and fact.

For a couple of the characters to stated that if it became a choice
between eating meat and starvation, that they would chose starvation.

Well, I guess the world must have it's starry eyed dreamers with
little or no since of reality.  But let me tell you that in 1974 I was
a member of a team sent into an area of Africa where starvation was
rampant.  My task was to protect some Americans during an evacuation.

I saw REAL starving people.  I saw people attempting to eat grass,
tree bark, etc.  The ones who could find insects, rodents, or any
other living creature that they could catch, ate them.  I saw one old
man eating old turds.  A Red Cross worker told me that it wasn't a bad
idea as the turds were from a human and did have nutritional value.
So people, if you haven't actually starved, don't tell me what you
won't eat as I probably won't believe you.

Yes, a proper vegatarian diet can be healthy.  So is any proper diet.
One problem to consider if you live in a cold climate.  The old Eskimo
diet used to require 3500 to 5000 calories a day just to provide the
energy necessary to survive. (They didn't have the advantage at the
time of central heating systems)  In a survival situation,  the number
of calories required to continue to live goes up.  Think long term
energy output such as fetching water in buckets,  tilling the soil by
hand, etc.  If you are a vegatarian, plan on a sufficient quantity of
high energy vegatables. (Lots of beans and potatoes!) Bob

From: Chuck Marsh <marsh@denver-rmn.com>

Dave Paxton wrote:

 If my memory serves me correctly, the only combination that vegetarians
 see as "total" is beans and rice. Something about the combination of the
 protean chains <???>

The idea was popularized by Frances Moore Lappe, in the seventies book
_Diet For A Small Planet_--that various "protien complements" from
mixing vegetables offer "complete" meat-substituting protiens. There are
some other combinations besides rice and beans, for example, corn and
beans (succotash) and wheat and peanuts...

Personally I think the politics were driving the science here; there is
no way to get the density of protien meat products offer, and to get a
comparable amount to, say, a steak dinner, one would need to be really
full of beans.

I met the author when she was flogging her book, and thought her recipes
dreadful.

From: mark@lis.ab.ca (Al Durtschi)

You _can_ live almost exclusively on potatoes -- provided they haven't
been stored long enough for their vitamin C content to go below the
British required daily dose.  ...

Can they really provide sufficient amounts of *balanced* protein?

Three or four months ago a vegie stated to me that protein wasn't nearly as 
hard to get as once thought and that one can get their protein from eating 

Anything if you don't include fruits and fats.  He said, "If you take any 
food, (except from the above) and get enough of it to get the calories you 
want, the protein will be there."  He also said that "This old idea that you 
have to mix plant proteins to get a complete protein is 1970's stuff and is 
way out of date."  Well, I decided to put him to the test, in doing some 
nutritional studies, and he was right.  For the results, see

http://www.lis.ab.ca/walton/omega/protein.html

Al Durtschi

 Web sites that sell edible dry goods:  http://www.lis.ab.ca/walton/
http://www.universalweb.com/food/index.htm   http://www.wwmagic.com/haphov/
http://www.mojoski.com/canteen/  http://web2.airmail.net/foodstr2/
http://www.zyz.com/survivalcenter/foodstor.html  http://downtown-web.com/psi/
http://magnet.mwci.net/mall/mtnvwfds/    http://www.mapleleafinc.com/
http://www.securefuture.com/  Know of any more?  Please let me know.

From: Leigh R Hidell <lrh02@gnofn.org>

Today, most nutritionists agree that Americans eat too much
protein.  A mature but not elderly or diseased adult needs
surprisingly little.  Even the beans & rice combo can be
too much if you are supposed to be on an extremely low
protein diet -- better to protect your liver in advance so
it doesn't come up.  In a survival situation, the problem
isn't lack of protein.  It's lack of calories -- FAT.  

And it is VERY difficult to effectively stockpile fat because
it goes rancid over time.  Beans, rice, grains do offer some
calories but try this diet for awhile (I have), & even if you
are of normal weight (I am), you will lose weight.  And you
will get hungry more often.

Stockpiling can carry you over for awhile, but you will
also need hunting/fishing skills to get the necessary fat
in your diet in a survival situation.  IMHO, anyway.

Very few veggies have enough fat.  Altho in some areas
you can have avocados & that's a big help...  --Leigh

From: XXX@XXX.XXX (Mr. E. Mann)

Seeds and nuts are loaded with fat.  Purslane, a common weed contains
omege-3 fatty acids, the same beneficial fat as is found in fish.

From: Leigh R Hidell <lrh02@gnofn.org>

Thanks for the tip on purslane.  I also thought of sunflower
seeds, which are pretty easy to grow.  Although I have only
grown them as a hobby, for birds.  Not all seeds have
much fat -- millet doesn't -- but sunflower is a good one.
You can also make oil & flour from it.  --Leigh

From: "Rev. Akia" <akia@magibox.net>

If my memory serves me correctly, the only combination that vegetarians
see as "total" is beans and rice. Something about the combination of  
the protean chains <???>

Hi, you've got the right idea but just a bit to narrow...

Think of it as beans and a grain....

Any kind of bean (soy (aka tofu, tempeh, soymilk, etc), pinto, lima,
pea, kidney, navy, garbonzo, ...)

and any kind of grain...(wheat (aka bread), so is rice, or bulger, or
corn (aka cornbread, tortillas, etc)...

Some combinations and ratios are better than others of course...
My favorite grains are brown rice and corn, and I like most beans.

But it's strictly because I don't bake well...if I could bake bread as
well as I can get at the local bakery I would use more wheat at
home...as is "bread" is for special occassions...

From: paigeturnr@aol.com

Actually, any grain and any legume can be combined to form a "complete
protein" -- i.e., beans and corn, beans and brown rice, peanut butter on
whole wheat bread, etc. However, the "complete protein" concept is
somewhat of a fallacy; you do not have to combine the elements in the same
meal, just more or less in the same day. 

People worry too much about protein anyway. TOO MUCH protein in one's diet 
is a much more common problem in America than too little. Says John
Robbins in his book "Diet For A New America" (the one that finally gave me
the knowledge I needed to convert to vegetarianism 8 years ago), if you
are getting enough calories from a reasonably varied diet, you are getting
enough protein. 

I read somewhere that humans are actually "fruitarians", designed to live
exclusively on fruits; this book said that you can live indefinitely on a
diet of only fruit -- there is enough protein if you get enough *calories*
from it, plus all the vitamins, fiber, fat (in the seeds), and *pure
water* you will ever need. 

I believe tomato is classified as a fruit, but corn is not (it's a grain). 
Makes sense to me! I'd certainly consider melons or tomatoes if I were to 
limit myself to only two or three staple foods (although I personally detest 
melons...), and I'd try to have a few fruit trees (apple, peach, pear) and 
some grape vines.  Nicole


I believe it was mentioned in John Robbins' book that Ms. Lappe later
revised her "protein complements" theory, saying something like vegetable
and fruit proteins were sufficient on their own, but better combined...
sorry I don't have the book in front of me, or I'd know just exactly what
the hell I was talking about...

(Hey, I found something: "Frances Moore Lappe's updated research on a
healthy, varied vegetarian diet: Protein combining is completely
unnecessary." ...from Robbins' pamphlet "Realities", excerpted from his
book _Diet For A New America_)

Personally I think the politics were driving the science here; there is
no way to get the density of protien meat products offer, and to get a
comparable amount to, say, a steak dinner, one would need to be really
full of beans.

Please see my earlier post re: protein hysteria. Personally I think the
meat, dairy, and egg industries have brainwashed us all from birth into
thinking that we need these huge vast concentrations of protein on a daily
basis... when in fact, a bulkier and lower-protein diet is more suitable
for the human body. This has been proven over and over in the medical
literature 

(NEWS FLASH!! Diets higher in vegetables and fruits result in
lower rates of cancer and heart disease!!). Are you aware that excess
protein is what causes osteoporosis? When excess protein is eliminated
from the body, it binds up with calcium and takes it with it, stealing it
from bone if necessary.... Also kidney failure is caused by excess protein
intake. Some stats:

The average measurable bone loss of female meat-eaters at age 65: 35%
The average measurable bone loss of female vegetarians at age 65: 18%

Also: Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein
according to: WHO -- 4.5%; USDA Food & Nutrition Board -- 6%; National
Research Council -- 8%. Wheat is 17% calories as protein, broccoli is 45%,
rice is 8%. 

I've been a vegetarian for 8 years now, and couldn't be happier with it!
I'm fat enough you wouldn't think it unless I told you, I've learned to
cook quite well, I get into food with real flavor, my digestive system
works quite well, and I probably won't die prematurely at 73 of one of the
"big three" -- cancer, heart disease, or stroke, nor do  I plan to be a
hunchbacked old woman with fragile hips. 

And I usually don't jump on the vegetarian soapbox, so I apologize if I'm
preaching! But my plan is to die at age 112 (it was 120 until I started
smoking...), and this is one way I intend to do that. What could be more
germane to survival than that? Nicole


"Very few veggies have enough fat."
(to provide calories in a survival situation)

Umm, except corn (where corn oil comes from), most beans (soybeans are
pretty high in fat), and NUTS, which are QUITE high in fat content. Seeds
also contain an appreciable amount of fat, and sunflowers are pretty easy
to grow and/or find growing wild. 

Avocados are high in fat, but are also one of the few vegetables that
contain *cholesterol* -- I don't think I'd want to rely on them for my fat
intake...  Nicole  talking about food again...

From: Ivan@mindspring.com (Crazy)

To : Nicole, 

Being a vegetarian is very bad for survival. Situations may arise
where your life will be dependent on eating meat. Even if you bring
yourself to eat it, you'd probably get very sick and die. I was a
vegetarian for three years at one point and it took me few weeks to
start eating meat. 

My suggestion for you is to give vegeterianism up and start intaking some meat. It doesn't have to be much - twice a week will do - and it could be mostly chicken or tender fresh beef (all healthy, good stuff) but your body needs to be used to it, so that when the shit hits the fan and your life is dependent on eating meat, you'll stay alive. 
	Love,		-= Ivan =-


From: Chuck Marsh <marsh@denver-rmn.com>

Actually I most enjoy the classic Chinese recipes; if meat is used at
all, it is in a proportion of 1/3 or 1/4 meat:veg. Recently, though, I
had a food craving--I tend to take such things as indicative of the
body's needs--and did myself a rare T-bone with all the trimmings. 

I don't mean to gross you out or anything, but it really hit the spot. I
cannot help thinking that animals contain many compounds useful to life;
it has an obvious appeal on the face of it. 

In a backcountry survival situation, you can get more calories out of a
porcupine than a parsnip. I know of no strict vegetarian hunter-gatherer
cultures, you need sustained and intense agriculture for that. An
advantage of plants in a foraging situation is they don't run away or,
usually, try to bite. Primitive eat them while they are between
sucessful hunts.

From: paigeturnr@aol.com

Ivan,

I thank you for your concern. But my concern is really one of long-term
survival at this point. I plan to store enough vegetable matter to get me
through if I can't buy or grow any more food for a while... If it comes
down to eating meat or starving, I may very well opt for the latter, as I
would as soon eat human flesh as any other.

I'm having trouble visualizing a situation in which my personal choice
would either be to kill, butcher, cook and eat an animal or to starve to
death. I assume you're talking about a long-term environmental disaster
here, in which I would be unable to grow food on my 11 acres of soil for a
season or two... in which case, I suppose the animals would be starving as
well. 

If they weren't, I'd be eating what they were eating. If the land
happened to be radioactively contaminated or something, I sure as hell
wouldn't want to eat the meat of animals grazing on the contaminated land!
Remember, meat is a *concentrated* form of whatever the animal ate. I'll
take my radiation poisoning in lower doses, please. 

If there's no grass or leaves left to eat, there won't be any cattle or
chickens or horses or dogs or whatever left to eat either. I could
probably be persuaded to eat fish if I HAD to to survive, but in a 
scenario such as that I doubt the fish would be very healthy or abundant either. 

There have been human vegetarians as long as there have been humans. I
happen to believe that we were designed to eat vegetable matter and fruit,
as opposed to being predatory or carrion-eating animals. And I believe
that vegetarianism is the *best* way to survive, both long-term and in
short-term crisis situations. The key for the short-term situations is a)
preparation -- i.e. gardening and food storage, having fruit and nut
trees, etc., b) knowing what is edible and what is not in the wild, or c)
both a and b.

I'm probably missing something obvious in the intent of your post. Please
tell me in what situation it would be advantageous to be able to eat meat.

Prison comes to mind, but I don't intend to wind up there! Also, bear in
mind that a person can go a very long time without eating food (depending
on body fat percentage and level of activity), as long as clean water is
available. And if water is not available, a diet of fruit will provide
that. (And fruit, unlike money, DOES grow on trees!)

Respectfully, Nicole

From: paigeturnr@aol.com

"Higher quality of life"?? I happen to LOVE being a vegetarian. I would
not have it any other way! It only took me about 6 months to completely
get over "burger lust", and I did phase meat out slowly in the beginning.

I've discovered the joy of actually tasting flavor in my food, as opposed
to just salt and fat. I enjoy cooking things more creative, flavorful,
healthy and cheap than just tossing some burgers on the grill or skillet
and eating them between 2 slices of white bread. I feel no guilt about
what I eat (perhaps you don't either -- that's your problem). I do not
fear illness from a meat-based diet. I have something interesting to talk
about with open-minded people. My digestive system works really well -- 

I very rarely suffer from diarrhea or constipation, I don't have hemorrhoids
or ulcers, indigestion is rare, my farts don't particularly stink (they're
not *supposed* to, you know...). I do NOT feel deprived in the least! 

The ONLY problem I have with being a vegetarian is the lack of variety
available to me in fast food. Oh, and being ribbed by well-meaning but
ignorant meat eaters (although this has mostly been all in fun). 

And I have found that almost all restaurants & fast-food joints have at least
one or two veg. selections (all hail Taco Bell!!), and although they look
at you funny, most will modify a menu item to exclude meat. (Try ordering
a grilled cheese sandwich "with everything" sometime, for laughs!
Sometimes I have to convince them that it IS possible, and then explain
how it's done...)

No, my quality of life is just fine. Far better than my first 17 years of
being an omnivore. I'd hate to think what my life would be like if the

Four Food Groups were still McDonald's, KFC, Long John Silver's, and Pizza
Hut!! Not that there's no middle ground, of course, but if I hadn't sought
out a better dietstyle, that's what my life would be like (that's how I
grew up, sadly). 

Eh, to each his or her own, I suppose. It's ALL about improving your
quality of life!! 

(and yeah, I traded in a few years for the "joy" of smoking. Cough, cough.
Oh, joy.) Nicole

From: Leigh R Hidell <lrh02@gnofn.org>

paigeturnr@aol.com wrote:

season or two... in which case, I suppose the animals would be starving as
well. If they weren't, I'd be eating what they were eating. If the land
happened to be radioactively contaminated or something, I sure as hell
wouldn't want to eat the meat of animals grazing on the contaminated land!

Remember, meat is a *concentrated* form of whatever the animal ate. I'll
take my radiation poisoning in lower doses, please. 

In event of radioactive or chemical contamination, Nicole is
100% correct.  Animal fat unfortunately concentrates this stuff.  --Leigh
