From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Sat Sep 17 11:23:16 EDT 1994
Article: 220 of misc.survivalism
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From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 16 Sep 1994 17:25:05 GMT
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In article Lq2@netcom.com, pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes:
>I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can 
>anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, 
>hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me.
>The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be 
>separate knives.
>At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped 
>handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick.

Buying knives  is a very hard proposition.  When I go backpacking
I carry a Swiss Army Super Tinker, and a 7" bladed custom made  bowie
knife.

If you want a big  knife,  get one  that's completely flat ground,
and  which has a balance forward of the guard.  This will allow
you to  chop.  The Cold  Steel  Trailmaster bowie is a good  example,
except that it's very prone to rust, and is heavier/thicker than you
really need.  But once you've seen one  you'll understand what a
flat ground blade is, and you'll know how  to evaluate other  knives.

The  USMC fighting knife (aka. KaBar) is  another good knife, when
properly sharpened, but it's  not  very useful for chopping.  It's
a good car/pack knife however since it's cheap, will hold an edge
well, is more easily re-sharpened than a stainless  steel  knife,
and it's reliable.

A really great knife  was  the Moran-Warner Rio Grande  bowie.  This
was a fully flat ground, carbon  steel blade.  It had all the earmarks
of a  superb  chopper.  Unfortunately it was discontinued,  but you still
see them at  gun shows.  They sold for  about $100.00.



---
Robert Allen, rja@sun.com

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and
	do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.

    The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94




From rdh@arriva.dr.att.com Sat Sep 17 11:23:59 EDT 1994
Article: 255 of misc.survivalism
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From: rdh@arriva.dr.att.com (131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300)
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
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The best all purpose "knife" I ever had was the Leatherman tool.
This had a 3" knife (good for many camping chores, but not all), a can
opener, phillips screwdriver and two flat head screwdrivers, a file and
a few other attachments.  The whole thing unfolds into a pair of pliers/
wire cutters, and on the spine is a ruler that (while being a bit hard
to read in certain light conditions) had both inches and centimeters.

It was the most useful tool I ever had and I always had it with me.
But I was working on my car in the twilight one evening, and I didn't
notice it sitting on the bumper in the low light as I cleaned up my
other tools.  Either someone took it that night or the next morning,
or it fell off the bumper the next time I drove the car!  Bummer.

To replace it, some friends bought me a similiar "multi-tool" from SOG.
What appealed to me about this tool was that the pliers didn't have the
edges facing my palms like the leatherman tool did.  The leatherman tool
can really leave some deep red marks on your palms when you use those
pliers!  But once I actually tried using the SOG tool, I realized what
a pain in the butt it is to unfold and use.  I don't like the SOG tool.

Gerber also has one, with spring loaded pliers.  It also looks like a
hassle to operate.  Stick with the leatherman tool, I swear by 'em.  Life-
time guarantee too!  And they can be had for a little as $35.  I'm
gonna have to pick another one up somewhere.  If you wear it on your
belt, you'll be amazed how often you use it.  Just keep a rag handy to
wrap around the handles when you need the pliers!

rdh


From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Mon Sep 19 19:08:28 EDT 1994
Article: 392 of misc.survivalism
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From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:56:19 GMT
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I have three knives that I swear by: 

 Spyderco Endura Clipit. Perfect for cutting army greenline, and small 
general purpose chores. 

 Leatherman tool. The ultimate gadget knife. I have heard good things 
about the SOG and the Gerber, but Gerber lost me with all the funky 
little screw driver bits. 

 Randall Model-1 7". This is my "combat" knife. This is what I carry to 
the field. I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. I paid 
$250 bucks for this knife and I have used a lot. 

Knives are special purpose tools. If you need to pound tent stakes get a 
hammer, if you need to chop wood get an axe, if you need to clear brush 
get a machette. In a pinch you can use a knife for these tasks, but I 
wouldn't make a habit out of it.
      
                                     - John 


From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Mon Sep 19 19:12:47 EDT 1994
Article: 392 of misc.survivalism
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From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:56:19 GMT
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I have three knives that I swear by: 

 Spyderco Endura Clipit. Perfect for cutting army greenline, and small 
general purpose chores. 

 Leatherman tool. The ultimate gadget knife. I have heard good things 
about the SOG and the Gerber, but Gerber lost me with all the funky 
little screw driver bits. 

 Randall Model-1 7". This is my "combat" knife. This is what I carry to 
the field. I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. I paid 
$250 bucks for this knife and I have used a lot. 

Knives are special purpose tools. If you need to pound tent stakes get a 
hammer, if you need to chop wood get an axe, if you need to clear brush 
get a machette. In a pinch you can use a knife for these tasks, but I 
wouldn't make a habit out of it.
      
                                     - John 


From fi017@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Mon Sep 19 19:13:41 EDT 1994
Article: 377 of misc.survivalism
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From: fi017@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bob Cathar)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 19 Sep 1994 00:39:39 GMT
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I have the carbon steel Marine Kbar too. Great knife! I'll be taking 
it along with me.

But those who want to "survive *and* thrive" probably wouldn't care
to use such a knife for all their food-prep needs. Here's the "best"
bet for that.

Get a Chinese cook's knife at an asian grocery, etc. Mine weighs
6.5 oz. and has a 4.25" wooden round handle. The blade measures
1.75" x 8" and yes, it's carbon steel. There are cool chinese
characters stamped into the blade too--just the accessory for your
sks or ak.

This knife wouldn't be good for dressing game, but for chopping and
slicing meat and vegetables you can't beat it. You hold it in the
hand with the round handle in your palm and the back of the blade
resting against your curled middle finger. The thumb and first finger
grip the sides of the *rectangular* blade (don't hold it only by
the handle).

Cost? 6-10 dollars. a few years back. There are different sizes.
the carbon steel models maybe cheaper now that everyone has got
the stainless bug. This is a fine tool. Probably a wicked 
slasher-weapon to boot :)

-- 
--Bob   "Don't Tread On Me"


From tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com Mon Sep 19 19:15:02 EDT 1994
Article: 251 of misc.survivalism
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From: tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com (Joe Bushong)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 17 Sep 1994 05:53:10 GMT
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*WARNING* everything that follows is just MY opinion! (And I hate having 
to start every sentence with "In my opinion,..." so it's implied from now on)

The most important thing about a "survival knife" is having it with you 
in a survival situation. Period. It doesn't matter if you've got an 
awsome outragously expensive knife in the car, at home, whatever... If 
something bad happens - you need a knife immediately and have to have it 
on you.

To me, this limits the discussion to medium sized folding knives for 
unplanned events. I carry a Swiss army knife 24-7 (OK...whenever I am wearing 
pants...). I have owned my Victornox Huntsman for many (+5 now) years. I find 
it to be the perfect size for keeping in my back pocket alongside my wallet. 
It is the perfect width to hold easily in the hand (mine at least...). The 
giant Swiss Army knives are MUCH to wide to be useful...and half of the junk 
on them is dead weight anyways. The Huntsman has the perfect selection of 
tools. The saw is excelent (cross cut?)and will cut down a 3-4 inch tree. I 
bought the Boy Scout version (heh...I was a Boy Scout at the time...never 
knock an organization that teaches honor as a virture) and feel that ALL 
Swiss Army Knives should have a Philips-head screwdriver in place of the 
corkscrew. The Swiss might carry bottles of wine with them for all I 
know but in the "real world", the corkscrew is pretty much useless. Both the 
large and the small blades can be made extremely sharp (I use a Lansky 
sharpening kit with a diamond Fine hone as my final step).
All in all, the perfect knife. Very moderately priced at $30 or so. Also 
makes a great gift (trust me...they will love you for it...)

The Leatherman tools are very nice but are more of "a pair of pliers 
with a knife on them" than the other way around. In my day-to-day life, I 
just don't seem to need a pair of needle nosed pliers all that frequently, 
and when I do, I bring a pair along. I know people who swear that the 
Leatherman tool is the greatest invention since fire, and if it works for 
them...who am I to argue.

I would also consider the Spyderco Clipits series as great carry knives. 
They can be opened with one hand (with practice this becomes automatic). 
They come in a variety of sizes (go with the Zytel plastic handled ones, 
the stainless ones are heavy and expensive). My only reservation is not 
being able to sharpen the serrated versions but I have had friends tell me 
that the special SpyderEdge pattern never seems to get dull. And did I 
mention the full range of handle colors...All in all, probably a much 
better "knife" than my Swiss, but definitely not a better "tool".

I also own a Cold Steel SRK sheath knife which I would carry if there 
wasn't a stigma against large, openly carried, sheath knives. The SRK is 
an excelent knife and will do everything that an expensive hand-made 
knife will do. Cost me $50, which is an tremendous value/cost ratio. 
K-Bars are the same way and they are available everywhere. I just can't 
see putting any hard use on a knife that I couldn't afford to replace ,and 
if you own a "work knife" what's the point of you having the "good knife"? 
The Carbon-V steel will rust in the places you scratch off the black 
coating. The handle on the SRK (and all Cold Steel knives) is perfect. They 
have knife ergonomics down pat. It feels exactly right. If it ever came down 
to a "me and one item" senario, my SRK is what I would bring. I don't 
think there can be any higher praise than that.

If you are interested in the best prices for knives, email me. I have a 
couple of knife catalogs.

Tapeworm



From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Mon Sep 19 19:15:41 EDT 1994
Article: 392 of misc.survivalism
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From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 19 Sep 1994 04:56:19 GMT
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I have three knives that I swear by: 

 Spyderco Endura Clipit. Perfect for cutting army greenline, and small 
general purpose chores. 

 Leatherman tool. The ultimate gadget knife. I have heard good things 
about the SOG and the Gerber, but Gerber lost me with all the funky 
little screw driver bits. 

 Randall Model-1 7". This is my "combat" knife. This is what I carry to 
the field. I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. I paid 
$250 bucks for this knife and I have used a lot. 

Knives are special purpose tools. If you need to pound tent stakes get a 
hammer, if you need to chop wood get an axe, if you need to clear brush 
get a machette. In a pinch you can use a knife for these tasks, but I 
wouldn't make a habit out of it.
      
                                     - John 


From rja@Eng.Sun.COM Mon Sep 19 19:16:46 EDT 1994
Article: 437 of misc.survivalism
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From: rja@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 19 Sep 1994 17:40:31 GMT
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In article 6mt@uuneo.neosoft.com, tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com (Joe Bushong) writes:
+John F. Fogh (jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com) wrote:
+: I have three knives that I swear by: 
+
+:  Spyderco Endura Clipit. Perfect for cutting army greenline, and small 
+: general purpose chores. 

I carry this at all  times  in urban settings, but in  wilderness
settings  I found  the non-serrated  swiss army knives more  useful.
Since I carry an 8" sheath knife  in the wilderness having thy
spyderco & swiss  army  both is overkill.

+
+:  Leatherman tool. The ultimate gadget knife. I have heard good things 
+: about the SOG and the Gerber, but Gerber lost me with all the funky 
+: little screw driver bits. 

I find  this tool very useful in urban settings, but  nearly useless
in  the  wilderness  conpared  with my Swiss  Army Super Tinker.

+
+:  Randall Model-1 7". This is my "combat" knife. This is what I carry to 
+: the field. I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory. I paid 
+: $250 bucks for this knife and I have used a lot. 
+
+I never equated expensive with useless...(Did I???). I have nothing 
+against buying top of the line gear when it is markedly better that 
+everything else available. All that I said was:
+
+Is there anything that your $250 Randall made knife can do better than my 
+$50 Cold Steel SRK?

Yes.  The Randall is hot-forged carbon  steel,  with the edge packed.
This results  in a tougher knife, by  which I  mean it will bend, but
not break, and the  edges are less prone  to  chipping  out. A bent
knife is still useful, but  a broken knife is  not.  The  randalls
typically have better grips and balance than factory knifes, although
the factories  are slowly learning.  My biggest  gripe against Randalls
is  that all the bowie patterns are saber  ground, not  flat  ground,
so  they aren't as sharp as they could  be for the blade size.  I had
a #1 which was beautiful, but it was not as sharp or as tough as the
Fisk  bowie I now carry. Of course it was about half the price too.


In terms  of cheaper  knives which have  the  features  I like in
expensive custom knives,  here  are a few knives I've seen that
I liked:

Moran-Warner Rio Grande bowie - spear point, flat ground,  carbon
	steel  bowie.  Discontinued, but very nice.

SOG Tigershark bowie - a large  bladed, flat ground, rolled edge
	knife, with almost acceptable  balance.

"Arkansas bowie" - by BlackJack, this was advertised  but I've heard
	it  had problems, or the company had  problems, and it  was
	never  released.  It was a 7"  bladed flat ground  bowie
	designed by master  bladesmith James  Crowell.

Cold Steel  Trailmaster bowie  - way too heavy  and  large, but  the
	early  models were  extremely sharp and tough.  Still, this
	design is what  a bowie should be, albeit in oversized  form.



---
Robert Allen, rja@sun.com

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and
	do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.

    The Constitution of the United States: R.I.P, 8/26/94




From jat@cup.hp.com Mon Sep 19 21:17:16 EDT 1994
Article: 474 of misc.survivalism
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From: jat@cup.hp.com (Joe Talmadge)
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
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131E50000-HolderR(DR2688)300 (rdh@arriva.dr.att.com) wrote:
> To replace it, some friends bought me a similiar "multi-tool" from SOG.
> What appealed to me about this tool was that the pliers didn't have the
> edges facing my palms like the leatherman tool did.  The leatherman tool
> can really leave some deep red marks on your palms when you use those
> pliers!  But once I actually tried using the SOG tool, I realized what
> a pain in the butt it is to unfold and use.  I don't like the SOG tool.

> Gerber also has one, with spring loaded pliers.  It also looks like a
> hassle to operate.  Stick with the leatherman tool, I swear by 'em.  Life-

The Gerber is nowhere near the pain-in-the-ass that the SOG is.  In
fact, it is less of a hassle to operate than even the Leatherman.

Basically, the Gerber is stronger than the Leatherman, doesn't hurt
your hand when using the pliers, and has a standard plier head.  The
Leatherman is lighter but has needle-nose pliers.  Either is a good
choice, but don't be scared off by Gerber's mechanism -- it's not like
the SOG.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com


From jat@cup.hp.com Mon Sep 19 21:20:37 EDT 1994
Article: 478 of misc.survivalism
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From: jat@cup.hp.com (Joe Talmadge)
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
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Robert Allen (rja@Eng.Sun.COM) wrote:
> tapeworm@starbase.neosoft.com (Joe Bushong) writes:
> +Is there anything that your $250 Randall made knife can do better than my 
> +$50 Cold Steel SRK?

> Yes.  The Randall is hot-forged carbon  steel,  with the edge packed.
> This results  in a tougher knife, by  which I  mean it will bend, but
> not break, and the  edges are less prone  to  chipping  out. A bent
> knife is still useful, but  a broken knife is  not.  The  randalls
> typically have better grips and balance than factory knifes, although
> the factories  are slowly learning.  My biggest  gripe against Randalls
> is  that all the bowie patterns are saber  ground, not  flat  ground,
> so  they aren't as sharp as they could  be for the blade size.  I had
> a #1 which was beautiful, but it was not as sharp or as tough as the
> Fisk  bowie I now carry. Of course it was about half the price too.

In addition, just pick up a Randall in one hand and the SRK in the
other, and your questions will be answered immediately.  Don't get me
wrong, the SRK is a great knife: inexpensive, strong, sticky handle,
sharp.  In fact, I own an SRK.  But the Randall just *feels* like it's
in another league, even before you even cut with it.  The Randall just
_wants_ to cut -- this is hard to describe, you just have to handle
it.  In any situation where I needed a lot of cutting power along with
lots of speed & quickness, there's no doubt which I'd choose.

My Gryphon M30A1 feels the same way compared to the SRK.


Joe
jat@cup.hp.com


From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Tue Sep 20 21:45:38 EDT 1994
Article: 512 of misc.survivalism
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From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 20 Sep 1994 05:11:45 GMT
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In article <35ja5u$6mt@uuneo.neosoft.com>,

>Is there anything that your $250 Randall made knife can do better than my 
>$50 Cold Steel SRK?
>
>I am not trying to get into a "My knife is better" argument. Whatever 
>works for you and you can afford, heh - I'm happy for you. I think 
>everyone should have at least a couple of things which they are 
>completely happy with...mine are my knives...
>

I have a cold steel recon tanto as well, and I like it very much. However 
the SRK and the Tanto both lack a guard. This might not seem important, 
but it gives you better control over the knife and margin of safety. It's 
largely a matter of preference. I also did not like the material that the 
grip is made of. Once again a mater of preference. I expect to have and 
carry my randall for the rest of my life, I would not expect an SRK to last.

                                       - John 



From jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com Tue Sep 20 21:46:35 EDT 1994
Article: 513 of misc.survivalism
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From: jfogh@chinook.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 20 Sep 1994 05:22:32 GMT
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In article <35kpjf$hpj@male.EBay.Sun.COM>,
>
>>I don't agree with the "Expensive = Useless" theory.
>
>What I said was "the more you pay for a knife, the less you will use it".
>
>Obviously, this is a generalization.  If you're one of the few and
>studdly that actually put a Randall to work, than my little "law of knife
>selection" certainly doesn't apply to you.
>
>Greg
>

I understand. Frequently Expensive does equal useless. If my randall was 
up on the mantle instead of on my web gear it would be useless. Anyone 
who has bought an expensive, quality knife and doesn't want to put it to 
work let me ask you this: How much is your life worth? If I am in a 
survival situation I think want the best tools I can afford. I'd feel 
pretty silly suffering because I brought a $14 dollar knife that wasn't 
up to the task while leaving the $200 life saver at home.

                          - John


From marlo@lib.nmsu.edu Tue Sep 20 22:05:09 EDT 1994
Article: 581 of misc.survivalism
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From: marlo@lib.nmsu.edu (Marlo Brown)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:23:26 GMT
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In article <pushkinCw7o5n.Lq2@netcom.com> pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin) writes:
>From: pushkin@netcom.com (Gary Trubin)
>Subject: Knives for Wilderness
>Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:15:22 GMT
>I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can 
>anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, 
>hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me.
>The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be 
>separate knives.
>At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped 
>handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick.
>Thanks
> - Gary -

I thought I'd list a few favorites:

-Leatherman Tool ($35-50) - an excellent all purpose tool.  It's essentially 
a pair of folding stainless steel pliers with a knife blade, file, awl and 
several screwdriver blades in the handles.  It's sturdy, well made and 
extremely functional.  The special design lets you "lock" any tool in the 
open position by closing the handles.  As long as you grip to tool, the 
blade can't close on your hand.  Comes in a very small, sturdy leather belt 
case.

-Spyderco lightweight folders ($30-60) The Delica, Endura, Rescue and Merlin 
are lightweight folders with G2 stainless blades and Zytel handles.  They 
come with pocket clips and are made for one-handed opening/closing.  The 
serrated models cut like there's no tomorrow.  Eric Remmen up in the Seattle 
area teaches a course in defending oneself with the Delica.  I haven't taken 
the course but think the Delica would be useful to a trained individual.  
These knives are *much* sturdier than their looks suggest.

-Gerber LST ($16-25) LST stands for light, smooth, tough.  These little 
folders are simply, in my opinion, the best single-blade pocketknives in 
their class.  Too small for the fast draw/open of a Spyderco, but extremely 
useful as an everyday tool.  I've heard of Special Forces types sewing a 
small pocket on their fatigues to carry LSTs.  One of the best knives for 
this price on the market.  I bought mine in 1986 onboard the USS TARAWA 
and love it.  I understand the new ones feature a pocket clip similar to 
Spyderco's.

-Ontario Knife Co. machetes ($12-20) - The 18" blade model used by the 
military is a good choice.  There are also some models put out by Blackie 
Collins featuring plastic "D" handles and Ontario blades.  Blade lengths 
range from 12" to 22".  The grip of the "D" handle was too big for my hand, 
so I converted the 12" Blackie Collins to an 11" machete with a linen 
micarta handle, homemade steel rivets in the handle and a plastic scabbard.  
Machetes are very useful for a big, rough outdoor knife.  With their low 
cost, you won't be afraid to actually *use* the tool.  Tramontino of Brasil 
also makes decent blades at very low prices.

-Fighting knives?  It would take too long to discuss this topic in this 
message.  My personal fighter was made from a German military blade.  I 
silver-soldered the guard, fitted it with a Pakkawood handle and made a 
synthetic scabbard of plastic.  It suits me, but this is such a personal 
subject that there are *lots* of different opinions out there.

You'll notice there are no custom knives in the list above.  I think that 
much of the custom work coming from people like Ken Largin, Randall, Emerson 
and others are excellent and exceed the quality of the blades listed above 
by a good margin.  I like low-cost knives, however, because I can buy more 
than one, leave them in my pack, in the car and in other places and not 
worry too much about them.  I'm not afraid to use them, as I can replace 
them if something happens to them.  In this way, at least I *know* the 
capabilities of my blades and will have them with me if I ever need them.

Marlo


From dlewis@nmsu.edu Tue Sep 20 22:06:54 EDT 1994
Article: 583 of misc.survivalism
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From: dlewis@nmsu.edu (David C. Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 16 Sep 1994 22:09:47 GMT
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Gary Trubin (pushkin@netcom.com) wrote:
: I am going to be attending a Gun Show in SF Cow Palace next weekend. Can 
: anyone suggest good quality knives for: multipurpose camping, survival, 
: hunting, throa...oops let that one slip by me.
: The knives don't have to have all of the characteristics. These could be 
: separate knives.
: At the last show I saw a realy nice one, it had a nylon chord wrapped 
: handle, the guard was detachable so it could be used on a stick.
: Thanks
:  - Gary -
: -- 
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
: - US Congress regarding its constituency ... or was it Roger Waters? 
: - "if I had my way
:    I'd have all of them SHOT!"    
: ====================================================================

	Well, heres my two cents,  avoid knives with hollow handles (too
fragile, and more for people who wear camoflage to the grocery store.)  Be
careful about knives with a saw edge on the back, most of the saws aren't
effective and weaken the blade (the USAF survival knife is one exception,
the notches of the saw aren't very deep and don't really weaken the blade
much.)

	For the blade itself think about a down-swept point (i.e., not a
bowie knife) as they are easier to skin animals with.  A good length would
be about 5 inches although the longer the blade the longer it will stay
sharp.  As for the material a good stainless steel like 440-C, ATS-34,
etc., would make a good knife.  The hardness of a blade is usually
measured on the Rockwell C scale, 60 is increadibly hard to sharpen but
can last a long time, a hardness in the mid to low 50's is probably more
appropriate as knives can be more readily sharpened with just hand tools. 
If a person does buy a serated edge knife they ought to be sure that they
know how to resharpen it when it finally does go dull.

	The handle shouldn't be made out of antler or bone (too easy to
break).  Material like Packa Wood or Micarta is good.  I have heard of
leather washer handles rotting when wet, but I have one that has yet to
rot that has been wet more than once.  A guard is optional, a well
designed knife might not need one.  The knife should have a full tang,
hidden tang knives can be strong but are usually weak because they can hide
poor workmanship.

	Some brands to consider would be custom (if one can afford it), or
Buck, Gerber, and Ka-Bar.  Of course there are some other good knife
companies that I've probably left out.  And don't forget pocket knives, a
Swiss Army knife (Victorionox and Wenger are the best brands) would
probably be more useful than a sheath knife in many situations.

	And whatever you do 1) don't throw it at anything, 2) don't get in
a fight with one (better to run or throw rocks or even use a club), it kind of
defeats the purpose of survival i.e., staying alive.

	Good Luck - DL


From jfogh@coho.halcyon.com Wed Sep 21 09:52:43 EDT 1994
Article: 645 of misc.survivalism
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From: jfogh@coho.halcyon.com (John F. Fogh)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Knives for Wilderness
Date: 21 Sep 1994 06:50:50 GMT
Organization: NWNEXUS, Inc. - Making Internet Easy
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>I  have a CS  Master Tanto, from the Japanese manufacturing run.  I
>used  it in the field briefly, where it was marginally satisfactory
>as a tool, until  I chipped  the edge badly and had  to send  it back
>to get it sharpened.  The first time it came back it was not factory
>sharp, so  I called CS and complained.  They had me send it to the
>main office, and Jody Sampson  personally sharpened and buffed it back
>to a razor  edge.  Since that time I haven't cut anything  with it, since
>I don't  want to chip it again.  It's good soley as a martial  arts
>knife, and even  for that the highly polished  edge won't  bite into
>a leather  jacket or denim as well  as a my home-sharpened carbon steel
>knives.
>

I really like my Recon Tanto, and it's a damn good field knife (I prefer 
the Randall for it's length, and guard in jungle, dense brush, etc) in 
desert/plains environments. I would never try to put a razors edge on the 
blade, even for use as a weapon. Most knives don't have the leverage to 
make a good slashing weapon, so I wouldn't destroy a tool by making it 
too sharp. Yes you can do that. If you can shave with your I bet it cuts 
the first couple of logs really well, but after 20 or so you might want 
to rethink that.

                               - John



From mcoonrod@cup.hp.com Sat Sep 24 05:29:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1000 of misc.survivalism
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From: mcoonrod@cup.hp.com (Mike Coonrod)
Subject: Knives for Wilderness
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I think that the final verdict is in and the best choices are:

1. Spyderco delica (urban) and Swiss Army Knife with saw blade (Wilderness)

2. Randal #1/6 carbon steel(my choice), or KA-BAR, or Cold Steel SRK

3. Gerber multi-plier or Leatherman tool

***** AND I ALSO WOULD TAKE ********

4. A light Kurkri or Jungle knife with a blade from 10" to 12" long

I have carried my Benchmade Kurkri for years hunting in the wilderness.
and It will do just about any cutting chore.  Splits a deers chest
open like you wouldnt believe and I can make a shelter 100 times faster
than with a 6" sheath knife.

Carrying four knives (one from each catagory) would get you through 
just about anything.  You would want to add an ez lap diamond knife
sharpener, a good 4" medium stone, and a small bottle of oil if you
had room.


From decastro@netcom.com Thu Sep 29 11:15:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1176 of misc.survivalism
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
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From: decastro@netcom.com (Richard A. De Castro)
Subject: Re: knives. hardness ratings and classes. what are they?
Message-ID: <decastroCwpKKC.MFy@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <ALLAN.94Sep24195105@elvis.tamu.edu>
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 1994 23:14:34 GMT
Lines: 34

allan@elvis.tamu.edu (Allan Bailey) writes:


>What are the hardness ratings for knives/swords etc?

>I was thinking about ordering a knife from a mail order place (U.S. Calavry)
>but I want to know what the ratings they give mean.

>Example:  anodized 440 stainless steel. Rockwell C: 51-52

>is this "Rockwell" some rating scale?  If so, where can I find info
>about  it?

Rockwell is a measure of hardness of different materials (usually metal).
Rockwell C (Rc) 51-52 is a medium-hard temper for steel, suitable for things
like knife blades (it is more brittle than, say, an Rc 40-43 steel.  Itg
will tend to be a bit hard to sharpen, but will hold an edge well in use.

You might check in the Materials Engineering section of a good university
library.



>--
>Allan Bailey, allan@elvis.tamu.edu          | "Freedom is not free."  _O_
>Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations | allan.bailey@tamu.edu    |
>Esperanto: MondLingvo, lingvo internacia.   | nefud-the-delirious@tamu.edu
>GCS d-- H->+++ s g+ a- w+ v-/+ C++++ ULAVIS@$ P+++ L++ E++ N++
>po--- Y++ G+ b++ e++ n+ x+
-- 
============================================================================
decastro@netcom.com      Warning:  I am a trained professional.  No, Really!
Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA  Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly......
Richard A. De Castro -   As long as the Government pretends to protect me,
			 I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT!
     -Don't Tread On Me!-
============================================================================


From degroff@netcom.com Thu Sep 29 11:17:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1278 of misc.survivalism
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
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From: degroff@netcom.com (21012d)
Subject: Re: knives. hardness ratings and classes.  what are they?
Message-ID: <degroffCwrDHH.47p@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 22:36:53 GMT
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In article <ALLAN.94Sep24195105@elvis.tamu.edu> allan@elvis.tamu.edu (Allan Bailey) writes:
>
>What are the hardness ratings for knives/swords etc?
>
>I was thinking about ordering a knife from a mail order place (U.S. Calavry)
>but I want to know what the ratings they give mean.
>
>Example:  anodized 440 stainless steel. Rockwell C: 51-52
>
>is this "Rockwell" some rating scale?  If so, where can I find info
>about  it?
>

 Try metallurgy or materials science... There are a couple
different test devices and scales...thus Rockwell C is 
different from Rockwell A.  
  This is a measure of surface hardness, and instruments
to test for it are a point or ball, which can be dropped
or pressed into the surface with a meaured force.
    440 is a particular type of steel, besides metallurge books,
standard handbooks like Machinery Handbook  will have most
of the common ones and useful details about uses,performance. 
   
   Another common set of notation which has immediate useful
 information  there are O, A and W alloys which are
best hardened and tempered using Oil, Air  and Water (or brine)
respectivly.

  It is worth keeping in mind that Hardness is differernt
>from  Toughness....with many steel alloys you can heat it,
plunge it into water, and have a hard object that will break
like glass.   
    I have made a small carving blade from a salvaged hacksaw
blade that I originally shaped by grinding and breaking
by a hammer blow... it can take a fantastic edge, but 
I know its brittle, and would not try to make and treat a
larger blade out of it. 
Les deGroff>
>--
>Allan Bailey, allan@elvis.tamu.edu          | "Freedom is not free."  _O_
>Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations | allan.bailey@tamu.edu    |
>Esperanto: MondLingvo, lingvo internacia.   | nefud-the-delirious@tamu.edu
>GCS d-- H->+++ s g+ a- w+ v-/+ C++++ ULAVIS@$ P+++ L++ E++ N++
>po--- Y++ G+ b++ e++ n+ x+




From Reid.G@Applelink@Apple.Com Fri Sep 30 22:50:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1554 of misc.survivalism
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From: Reid.G@Applelink@Apple.Com (Greg L. Reid)
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Super Leatherman to buy or not?
Followup-To: misc.survivalism
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 1994 22:25:52 -0700
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In article <decastroCwtILt.9oD@netcom.com>, decastro@netcom.com (Richard A.
De Castro) wrote:

> mshafer@herbie.unl.edu (MICHAEL SHAFER) writes:
> 
> >I just lost my Swiss Champ and am debating whether to but another one 
> >or to purchase the new Super Leatherman.  I have read all the threads 
> >comparing the SOG, Gerber, and Leatherman and have come to the 
> >conclusion that neither is perfect and each has a different advantage 
> >over the other two(its too bad someone doesnt take all the good from 
> >each unit and make one perfect unit) until the ideal unit is made, the
> >Super Leatherman looks to have an edge(no pun intended) over the 
> >others.  Has anyone purchased one yet?  If so has the metal grade and 
> >thickness improved?  Is the new locking mechanism a vast improvement? 
> >I loved my Swiss Champ and used it extensively while camping and 
> >fishing should I go back?  I would like to carry both but then I would
> >have to wear suspenders just to keep my pants up...
> >Thanks in Advance..
> >Michael
> 
> >"Dr. DeWalt for President"
> > 
> 
> To quote the rec.guns moderator, "buy them all!"
> 
> 
> -- 
> ============================================================================
> decastro@netcom.com      Warning:  I am a trained professional.  No, Really!
> Rick N6RCX EMT-A ATP MA  Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly......
> Richard A. De Castro -   As long as the Government pretends to protect me,
> 			 I'll pretend to feel safe - NOT!
>      -Don't Tread On Me!-
> ============================================================================

-- 

Buy the SOG Paratool & get another Swiss Champ. I feel the Paratool is
better than the Super Leatherman. 

P.S. I have all three.

RotnApple


From mcoonrod@cup.hp.com Mon Oct  3 20:16:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1815 of misc.survivalism
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From: mcoonrod@cup.hp.com (Mike Coonrod)
Subject: Randall
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Here are the answers to your Randall questions:

1.  Randalls have the reputation because they are functional not pretty.

2.  Carbon steel holds an edge longer and is easier to sharpen.  Stainless
    is more brittle but it dosent rust.  I like the Carbon and Ive owned both.

3.  Randall handles run a little narrow so they fit my small/med hands real
    well.

4.  Brass corrodes.  This is good and bad.  When It's tarnished, its not 
    shiney like nickle silver.  Unless you are a commando and need everything
    subdued, I would go with the Nickle silver.

5.  Sawteeh are a mess to clean after you have cleaned a fish or skinned a 
    deer.  They are NOT wood saw teeth on the Randall.  They are saw teeth
    made to saw through the aluminum skin of an aircraft and will not saw
    wood very well.  You would be better served by not getting the saw teeth.
    They do look cool.


