I'd rather kill myself than host SMTP again reddit / selfhosted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 07:28 It's been two months since I am running a mail server. I worked on a beautiful UI like SendGrid and MailGun for more than six months. I plan to start a transactional email service. I bought a range and rented another /24 range because I didn't want to have a bad neighbour on the subnet. I even got my own ASN because jerks like UCEProtect often put big ISPs on a blacklist at the ASN level. Of course, I have got a decent experience with this. I wrote my own SMTP server, email routing, and other things such as bounce and suppression handling. In a sense, everything is fine. RDNS, DKIM, DMARC, and SPF. I know that IP needs to warm up, so that's where I started. I paid for a few services to help me warm up, and it took me about two months to do so. Okay so far. The email was delivered 100% of the time to Gmail, but not at all to Yahoo and Outlook. The delivery rate to these two companies started to get better around last week, though. Some IP addresses started getting a 100% delivery rate. Then, I started testing my service on one of my websites. Of course, 100% transactional emails with account confirmation links ONLY. It was working great. Nearly 2,000 emails, 3,000+ opens and about 2,500 clicks daily on an average. I've also subscribed to Glock Apps and MXToolbox to measure my email deliverability and monitor IPs. Just today, I received an email with all half of my active IP addresses and sending/tracking domain blacklisted by Spamhaus. They categorize it under "spam domain", but I looked through my server logs (yes, everything is logged) and found no evidence of spam. Only transactional and warmup emails sent. I opened a ticket with Spamhaus and refuse to unblock my IP addresses and domains. I spent 6 months and $20,000+ working on this, only to be butchered by Spamhaus. I want to kill myself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No_Bee_7194 · 2023-12-04 07:32 LMAO...🤣 Thank you for your effort put in SMTP. I will keep it away and never try. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ferrybig · 2023-12-04 07:42 Spamhaus is the worst for filtering mails, I used to have their DNS based block list as a factor for my incoming mail spa filtering, but they started to say a whole bunch of other mail servers were sending spam. I had to remove that factor from my incoming mail filters, as it wasn't effective anyway. (For filtering incoming mail, the filter that seems the most effective at blocking spammers is just sleeping for 2 seconds at the start of a connection, and then blocking any client that has send any bytes to the server, if they haven't send any bytes, just send the hello message) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SchindlersIgnoreList · 2023-12-04 07:47 Haha. UCEProtect are biggest cunts who ask for money for whitelisting. We tend to ignore them. Did you ask spamhaus for headers of email IDs they marked as spam? Or did they give any reason? Also, who is using your service? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CAP_NET_ADMIN · 2023-12-04 07:47 This has been going on for at least a decade, I'm not really sure how you can spend half a year and 20k doing something without stumbling upon countless examples of the same behaviour from Spamhaus & Co. Sorry that this happened to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 07:52 They did not provide any reason and just mentioned that they are unable to remove the block at the moment. Now, my replies are being ignored. Only I am using the service (warmup + transactional emails sent through my other site) right now. I haven't started selling the service to others yet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 07:54 I was really confident that I could maintain a good, positive IP reputation which I did. Until I got banned randomly. The software that I built has features to combat end-user spam: 1. Hourly Limit 2. Spam Filter 3. LLM-based Spam Filter (runs every 5,000 emails) 4. Account Approval (where every user and their use case is verified by having a small chat with them first) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hanb1n · 2023-12-04 08:02 One does not simply, setting up Mail Server. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CAP_NET_ADMIN · 2023-12-04 08:07 At my previous workplace we were hosting separate email servers for each customer on their own, private application instance. One of our clients was a national posting service from Europe, their corporate side forced them to use the highest notification frequency they could configure in our software upon all users. After some time, their IT started reported our IP address to various spam lists and they even sent abuse report to AWS. It was fun... At least for me, I always made sure to never touch anything email- related, that's how you become the "email guy". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BAAAASS · 2023-12-04 08:10 One of the factors considered by SpamHaus is domain age. If your domain is under 2 years, you are automatically flagged... Then, the slightest flare in volumes gets you banned. Just continue to press support, but be polite in comms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- raffaeleguidi · 2023-12-04 08:13 Yeah this. Just ignore them and tell everyone to do the same ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 08:15 Do you think it would be helpful if I change my sending domain (MTAs) to an older domain? I own some very old domains (as old as 22 years). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BAAAASS · 2023-12-04 08:22 Well worth a try, but no guarantees. Understandably challenging, but try to slowly increase your volumes over a six month period. I.e. Avoid sending out thousands of emails per day from day 1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NMCMXIII · 2023-12-04 08:25 i used to run my own and conract theae comoanies every few month. as long as you told them whats up theyd unban. yes it sucks and it is what it is. they always ban just because your range isnt gmail or isp basically. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 08:40 Thanks, I'll change the MTA and tracking domains tonight! :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- unixuser011 · 2023-12-04 08:56 >jerks like UCEProtect often put big ISPs on a blacklist at the ASN level. yea, just ignore them, no one major uses them & even if you do everything right, they still blacklist you, it's such a scam and the guy running it is a major dick nozzle https://uceprotect.wtf/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gremolata · 2023-12-04 09:04 What are the warmup emails exactly? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 09:07 Basically, services like Folderly run their own private network of email addresses (on G Suite). Their service opens and interacts with emails, simulating real user behavior, to test and improve email deliverability and sender reputation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- fellipec · 2023-12-04 09:15 I used to manage an Exchange 2000 Server. I don't miss this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Le_Vagabond · 2023-12-04 09:33 snake oil, basically. you're hoping very hard Google doesn't detect their service and just ignore it or worse. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 09:40 Yeah, it's a bit hard to say whether they work or not. This is why I added my own website with real users interacting with confirmation emails ---------------------------------------------------------------------- egrueda · 2023-12-04 10:01 Maybe "transactional email" for you is "renamed spam" for them xD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- haroldp · 2023-12-04 10:06 Two years doesn't sound right. The worst I have seen is a couple months, and it wasn't SpamHaus. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- codeagency · 2023-12-04 10:11 There you have the proof again for all those nitwits that claim self hosting email is "easy". Sure, the server part is easy. Everybody can run a bunch of containers and open some ports. The hard reality and uncontrollable part is the delivery reliability as you have no control what the big guys Google, Microsoft and those spam scammers do. One day everything is cool, the other day they can just block you. This is also the reason I no longer ever will self host email again. It's much easier to just sign up for Google or o365 and never have to worry again about emails hitting spam. Open source just lost on the email playground. Period. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- AllTheModzAreCancer · 2023-12-04 10:11 If you had paid me $20 large I'd be knocking out some kneecaps for your email service. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ifndefx · 2023-12-04 10:16 Gawd I hate what email has become. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CompetitiveYam6697 · 2023-12-04 10:34 Yeah. This is why I gave up and started using mailgun for both sending and receiving email. I just set up gmail as an inbox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- redditor111222333 · 2023-12-04 10:39 What was your goal to achieve here? Investing 20k to send emails doesn't sound like the typical self hoster. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 10:49 It's not exactly too hard to read the Reddit post ---------------------------------------------------------------------- jayn35 · 2023-12-04 10:54 Some warmup services are better then others due to pool size and esp distro. I really good one that has worked for me for long is smartlead a popular cold email tool with a big pool and unlimited warming in its small cheap plan. Some Tools like folderly are smaller and newer and don’t work as well. Smartlead also has a much more stealth warmer nails that isn’t obvious with stupid big footprints like code ls in the subject line that are easy to detect (for use with rules and moving those emails to other folders). Make sure to set a good reply rate percentage, replies are critical to email rep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 10:57 Please stop shilling your product ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kuzared · 2023-12-04 10:58 Honestly, I think this is something people in this community would find very useful. We often get questions regarding self-hosting email, and this specific post really shows why it can be so frustrating. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- git · 2023-12-04 11:02 I'm with you. I hosted my own mail server for about five years before giving up, and it irritates me when folks say it's not that bad. Even with perfect DKIM and DMARC configurations, spam filter lists would add me silently and repeatedly, and I'd frequently have to go through their processes to remove my domain. Then Google would sometimes start treating me as spam too, or outright deny email delivery, requiring some tweak or another to enable delivery. It was a constant battle, one in which you don't always know when you're losing since nobody reaches out to tell you when you've been blocked. It was exhausting. Giving up and moving to Proton was a sad moment. I really wanted to stay as limited as possible in my dependence on other tech companies, but email just wasn't reasonable for me at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- jayn35 · 2023-12-04 11:05 Does my history make it look like im shrilling products on here. Try to help with advice and you get this shit. If I owned fukin smartlead with that many clients I’d be rich as fuk and certainly not be here wasting time shilling anything to a few random people ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 11:06 My apologies then. It looked like that. I'll look into the product that you suggested ---------------------------------------------------------------------- jayn35 · 2023-12-04 11:10 Cool no worries my other response was originally going to be how I just finished setting up my first basic vps email server and your post title has me worried what I’ve got myself into lol. I’ve heard it can be frustrating, I hope I don’t end up spending a lot of time and effort as well and for something stupid to happen with these spam guys. Hope yours works out and mine lol, cheers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 11:12 Fingers crossed, mate! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sentreen · 2023-12-04 11:42 Meh. I won't deny that it is fickle, but I also don't think most people self-hosting mail send 2k daily mails. I self-host a mail server for my personal domain + a few mailing lists and I have not been banned in the last few years. I only had issues with forwarding yahoo mails through the mailing list (as yahoo's DKIM settings casued google and microsoft to reject those mails), but that was solved quite easily. Yes it's a hassle and most users are better off paying for some service. Yes it's easy to get blacklisted without even knowing you are on a list. However, self-hosting email _is_ viable if you know what you are doing and are not sending out mails in bulk. Don't get me wrong, I do sympathize with OP though; it really does suck how much you are at the mercy of the "big guys" when you set up your own mail system. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- atheken · 2023-12-04 12:19 I was the software architect for (somewhat) popular transactional email provider for 6+ years. So here’s my 2¢: I don’t know the internals of spamhaus’s categorization, but I’d wonder if some of the domains you are sending on behalf of are being used on other systems to send trash. DMARC reporting for those domains should help you understand the volume that a domain is delivering. If possible you really want to send from a subdomain that is dedicated to this, and marketing trash should be send from a different subdomain. They all roll up to the main domain, but that can at least firewall some of the reputation issues. The second part of my advise is the same thing I say every time this comes up in this sub: processing mail is not _technically hard_ (though you can make configuration mistakes that will cause huge problems). What is hard is the human element of monitoring your reputation and contacting postmasters and list maintainers to get things resolved. This is a full-time job, and only gets busier as your volume and customer base increases. My last bit of advise is that many developers look at mail processing as a commodity (just look how many people in this sub claim they are doing it without problems). It’s a competitive low-margin business, so think twice about whether you really want to do it. FWIW, you can probably recover your costs for the /24 pretty quickly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 12:22 Thanks for your insights! I own the domains and there are not being used with any service. I can confirm that we were only sending transactional and warmup emails. As for the configuration issues, I double-checked everything manually. I also use several tools to ensure that there are no configuration issues such as Glock Apps, Mail Tester, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SpongederpSquarefap · 2023-12-04 12:27 I fucking despise these shit tier spam providers They function in the same way as a cartel Spamhaus are fucking wankers as well - they banned a /11 range in Azure (2 million IPs) which caught some of our servers for just existing They can get fucked ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SpongederpSquarefap · 2023-12-04 12:28 You shouldn't need to go through all these hoops This is bullshit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 12:29 Holy shit, a /11 range. That's fucked! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SpongederpSquarefap · 2023-12-04 12:32 It's clear that they're colluding with big providers like Microsoft and Google They see self-hosting as something to be stamped out because it doesn't make them a profit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 12:34 I understand, but I am not mass-mailing. I have literally been sending transactional emails who sign up at my site (with proper warmup procedure). I also know what I am doing. I've setup everything correctly, verified it myself, checked through email testing tools. It's 100% ok. Spamhaus is being a bully by not letting me know the specifics of the ban. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FritzSchnitz · 2023-12-04 12:52 I will never mess with email, WAY too hard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kuzared · 2023-12-04 12:55 I agree all around. I'd probably worry about the chances of my email being delivered or not. And I also have a bit of a chip on my shoulder from administering on- prem Exchange and having to deal with users complaining when an email isn't delivered right this instant :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sentreen · 2023-12-04 12:59 > I understand, but I am not mass-mailing I just meant to say that there is a difference between an independent mail server like mine, which sends out 100 mails per week and one like yours, which sends 2000 per day. I am assuming that most self-hosters fall in the first category, not in the second. > Spamhaus is being a bully by not letting me know the specifics of the ban. 0 disagreement from me there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- washapoo · 2023-12-04 13:14 If you really want to do this, your best chance of success would be set by going to work for a large email marketing company like Episilon for a while and learning how they do things. They have entire teams dedicated to keeping each company they send email for out of SPAM folders...and that is what it takes. I have owned a couple of email hosting companies, not bulk email, just normal corporate and end user email hosting, it is a rough business when you are an independent, MS, Google, Yahoo and others do everything they can do kill off your email. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- r3dk0w · 2023-12-04 13:17 I spent most of the first 10 years of my career hosting e-mail at various providers, even to the point to helping host several of the DNS-based RBL lists back when they were first getting started. People that come on here and claim that "e-mail hosting is easy" and "I always host my own e-mail" are probably proxying their outgoing mail through one of the big providers. Receiving e-mail is no big deal, but being able to send e-mail from your own mail server directly to the internet is something that is nearly impossible 100%. There will always be mail servers that aren't going to trust your ip block. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crazedizzled · 2023-12-04 13:23 I've been running Mailcow for quite a while now. Mostly just for my own personal services. I don't really find it's worth self hosting actual important email. Even for my dev services, I'm considering just throwing it on AWS SES instead. It'll be cheaper than my Mailcow server and I've had my fun with it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- spudd01 · 2023-12-04 13:25 Found their support to be very good and quick at responding when I had an issue recently ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CraftCoding · 2023-12-04 13:31 Just use Mailcow on linode and spend a lot less running smtp for a couple years now and I’m under 30 a month and send around 1000 emails daily for auth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mkmike000 · 2023-12-04 13:32 nice! (not the spamhaus shit, but your level of execution and stuff) is it possible to have your service for my clients as well? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- umataro · 2023-12-04 13:39 I never want to deal with email again. But my nemesis was always Microsoft. Randomly getting blocked, followed by weeks or months of jumping through hoops, followed by up to 2months of everything working, and then repeat. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Internal-Initial-835 · 2023-12-04 13:57 Possibly silly question but why spend all that money and time when there are services specifically designed to do this for you. I run an exchange server with multiple domains. I have my incoming mail delivered to a well known pop mailbox service and I use a forwarder to send outgoing mails. Both are on whitelists and have been doing that for years. My use it’s all free but their rates are pretty reasonable for larger use. I get the attraction to having it all yourself but when somebody can knee cap you with a touch of a button it becomes a lot of hassle. I was going to do what you’ve tried but luckily before I put money in I became aware how risky it was. There’s no reason you can’t host your own mail server but doing it in the same way huge companies do is always going to be expensive and a challenge. Taking shortcuts to improve reject rate will often trip spam filters. It’s takes years to get a good reputation reliably if done properly :( The best option for small people and companies is workarounds. They work pretty well tbh and offer security benefits too. You could have google host your domain email and be done with it but where’s the fun in that :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EndlessHiway · 2023-12-04 14:07 Okay. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- englandgreen · 2023-12-04 14:18 I self hosted SMTP from 1997-2021. Some months were smooth, most months were rough. I finally gave in when I finally realized just how much of a time-suck it was to babysit email. It only took me almost 25 years. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- farva_06 · 2023-12-04 14:24 > I spent 6 months and $20,000+ working on this Big ouch. Google spent billions though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- usrdef · 2023-12-04 14:28 I hate Spamhaus, I spent almost two months tracking down an issue they stated was going on with my SMTP server, with the wrong domain being broadcasted with HELO. And it was never the case. Everything was configured properly, and even after I spent them massive logs and reports from other SMTP checkers showing a properly setup HELO, they failed to do crap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 14:32 Wow, you're so smart. I agree Google should be the only Email Service Provider. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- farva_06 · 2023-12-04 14:40 Well, I do have a working self-hosted email server that I spent less than $100 on. Granted, I have to route outbound through a smart host, but I really don't want to pay for the reverse lookup zones for my IP. Also, I wasn't advocating for Google. Simply stating that they, and others have spent a fuck ton of money to make sure they are the dominant email providers on the Internet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TopDeliverability · 2023-12-04 14:40 We might be able to help. Feel free to contact us via DM or via topdeliverability.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- afinzel · 2023-12-04 15:07 Just a couple of thoughts. I guess https://check.spamhaus.org didn’t show you the emails? The other thing I have found in the past is my mailing list had honeypot emails in. How clean is your mailing list? You could also see if your isp could help get the ips unblocked. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- blckshdw · 2023-12-04 15:18 You wrote your own SMTP server?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nefarious_bumpps · 2023-12-04 15:19 If they aren't responding to your existing ticket I'd open more tickets. Spamhaus is on Twitter and Mastedon. Perhaps a (gentle) public flogging might get some response. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4i768 · 2023-12-04 15:24 I wonder what one does to even get their own ASN 🤔🤔 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheOriginalSamBell · 2023-12-04 15:25 >I know that IP needs to warm up Can you please explain what this means? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 15:43 It doesn't. I am in the Spamhaus CSS blocklist. These listings generally expire in 3 days, but I'm worried about my domain being in DBL whose listings do not expire automatically. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- paul_h · 2023-12-04 15:44 To launch a email service you need to employ one of 20 engineers from a distributed group, or one of a larger secondary group that has been apprenticing/networking for a decade or more with the first group. .. is something i was told recently. You were an outsider to both, and you don’t have the interpersonal stock to gain acceptance for your thing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- neonsphinx · 2023-12-04 15:44 What a chode. This page is one of the reasons I love the Internet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 15:44 Yes, I wrote it in Golang. It's very simple TCP server, you just need to implement a bunch of SMTP commands such as HELO, EHLO, MAIL FROM, RCPT TO, AUTH and so on. I also wrote an email rewriter which pretty much just inspects the email contents, adds an open and click tracking links. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 15:45 I will try, thank you! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 15:45 It's a bit easier to get an ASN in a RIPE region compared to APNIC. You can ask a LIR to apply on your behalf. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lucaprinaorg · 2023-12-04 15:52 my OpenBSD mail server works like a charm, never had an issue... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- blckshdw · 2023-12-04 15:55 Impressive. I don’t know that I would have bothered but you do you. I’m sure you learned some things :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 16:04 I don't think that's true. It's just that morons like Spamhaus make life harder for everyone else. Even if I sent spam, I believe that they need to report the Message ID or headers to me so that I can investigate it internally. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- atheken · 2023-12-04 16:36 Are you monitoring DMARC reports for these domains, and what is your DMARC policy? Is it possible that there are other senders that are spoofing/sending for that domain through unauthorized systems? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 16:55 It was set to reject. I recently changed it to a DMARC monitor and it seems OK - 100% DKIM and SPF authentication success ---------------------------------------------------------------------- atheken · 2023-12-04 17:00 The other thing I would mention is that you should be processing NDRs. The major blacklists/monitors sometimes create fake accounts and will send NDRs/spam complaints to check if you're actually using them to suppress further communication. Beyond that, not sure what to tell you. Like I said, this is just one of the reasons why managing mail servers/reputation is more challenging than people think it is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nicman24 · 2023-12-04 17:05 i find if you have dkim or whatever that is called, it goes to inbox rather than spam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 17:17 Here's an update: Based on my logs, it's clear that my sending and tracking domain were added into the Spamhaus DBL first. I've a top-level domain and I've a subdomain for each MTA and a click/open tracking subdomain. Since domains and IP addresses affect each other. As my IP addresses kept sending emails through this domain, my IP addresses started getting blacklisted one by one. I'm not sure why my domain was blocked though. It was a .io domain, they usually have a decent reputation (as I previously used this extension without any issues). I am currently on Cloudflare's free plan and I am wondering if it could be the issue since a lot of the times, Cloudflare is source of abuse and spam. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 17:20 Yeah, I am also handling bounces and adding such email addresses to a suppression list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ballarddude · 2023-12-04 17:42 If only Apple would also ignore them. Not all of Apple, but at least one of their email domains blocks anyone on the UCEProtect lists. I think it is the icloud.com domain. UCEProtect is a pure extortion play where you need to pay to get delisted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-04 17:43 Publishing a DKIM record and misconfiguring DKIM on your server end will most likely result in your emails being rejected. DKIM uses public-key encryption (I believe RSA). You basically publish a TXT record for your domain saying, "Hey, I will sign my emails with the private key associated with this public key". While sending an email, your MTA (think of it as a very, very smart SMTP client) reads your email, generates a signature (with your DKIM private key), attaches it to your email header, and then sends the final email to an email provider such as Gmail. Gmail uses your published public key to make sure that it was signed with your private key. A mis-constructed signature will probably get your email rejected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ballarddude · 2023-12-04 17:46 Apple will block delivery if you are on a UCEProtect list, at least on their icloud.com email addresses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sexyshingle · 2023-12-04 17:47 geez this is disappointing... I sincerely commend you for trying. But yea spammers have dealt some serious damage to email, and now it's impossible to not rely on some megacorp monopoly for email... EMAIL! Which was supposed to be a free, decentralized thing to begin with! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- unixuser011 · 2023-12-04 17:49 Even when you do email successfully, you still get on Microsoft's blacklist. Even for a bigger company like ours, it can take a while to get off it ---------------------------------------------------------------------- unixuser011 · 2023-12-04 17:57 huh, TIL. We don't really deal with Apple customers much tbh ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HallowedGestalt · 2023-12-04 17:59 How did you do LLM spam detection? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- StickyNode · 2023-12-04 18:13 That is such bullshit!! Greed..and they are allowed to do this.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- xenophonf · 2023-12-04 18:19 > I plan to start a transactional email service. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Honestly, what did you expect? > How can Spamhaus be the police, judge and the executioner? Because mail server operators and their users don't like spam, and they think those blocklists do a good job of keeping the riffraff out with low false positive rates. Spamhaus is really, truly opt-in. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- boli99 · 2023-12-04 18:25 you have likely increased your spam score by doing that. its an unknown smtp agent, and it only takes a tiny mistake in code to mean that you might not be adhering as well to smtp protocol as you think you are you would probably get better results by using a tried/tested already- existing smtp agent. exim, postfix, or similar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fratm · 2023-12-04 18:25 This is NOT an open source issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- boli99 · 2023-12-04 18:27 > I believe that they need to report the Message ID or headers to me thats a bit entitled of you. you weren't ready for this, and it shows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cspotme2 · 2023-12-04 18:30 Transactional emails... I'm pretty sure you could have done this through sendgrid,, Amazon ses or tons of to her email service providers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- anothercorgi · 2023-12-04 18:41 I've been self hosting SMTP for about 2 decades or so, using sendmail but absolutely no anonymous users, and I IMAPd and allow relaying for myself. To use my mail relay, it requires authentication. Recently people have been trying to dictionary attack this as well (nevermind the ssh dictionary attacks)... sad what it has come to. I'm kind of worried now that I may need to change isps and that would mean an ipaddr change which will make spamhous unhappy most likely (of course, going to keep my domain name). Hoping I won't get flagged... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- fprof · 2023-12-04 18:45 It is. However OP seems to do this at a business level. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- haqk · 2023-12-04 18:47 Been there, tried it, gave up. I applaud your tenacity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kgeyst · 2023-12-04 18:52 A few weeks ago Spamhaus added our IP to the spamlist. They have a form where you can ask them to remove ypur IP from the spamlist. We asked them to, and they complied. But there's still a chance they can add us back for whatever reason. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Salty-Judge272 · 2023-12-04 18:57 Blocklists will assign IPs a neutral reputation by default, so if an IP suddenly starts sending lots of email, it's neutral reputation will class it as spam near instantly. If the IP slowly starts to send email, if none of it gets identified as spam then the IP reputation will improve to the point that it can send larger amounts without fear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EquivalentBrief6600 · 2023-12-04 19:00 You doing fbl with ms? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- throwaway2938472321 · 2023-12-04 19:03 >LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL My exact response. >low false positive rates. I'm not at all convinced this isn't the case for this case. My B.S. alarms go off the charts on this one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TacoCrumbs · 2023-12-04 19:05 they're not morons. they're doing this to you to make money. you have to play their game or you lose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ZyanCarl · 2023-12-04 19:13 Everything in the post sounds like magic. I will get there one day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- theobscureguy · 2023-12-04 19:14 Not worth the trouble, I tried selfhosting SMTP, and it sucks. I just migrated my outbound emails to AWS SES 1000 emails for $1 or Brevo.com 300 emails a day - free forever. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No-Rip9591 · 2023-12-04 19:16 Sorry, but is running a commercial email system really qualify as “self-hosted”? I’ve run a self-hosted email system for my personal domain for 15+ years. I rent an AWS t2.small guest, run Linux OS, postfix, postgray, amavisd+spamassassin+clamd antivirus scanner, Dovecot for an IMAP email server. Works great, have to keep updating patches, but I’m used to it. Postgres is wonderful. Sucks when you are trying to subscribe to something because it causes a delay from any email server it S never seen before. But my spam level is more than manageable. Better than gmails. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruceshadow · 2023-12-04 19:19 > change isps why would you need to change? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FierceDeity_ · 2023-12-04 19:29 This really smells like the special kind of BS that can only grow in an already broken environment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SadSssassin · 2023-12-04 19:31 If you have any legal company information that's in good standing with your companies registry, include that info with support, also make sure you have a good website that clearly shows the services you offer. You are legit, look legit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FierceDeity_ · 2023-12-04 19:31 We host our own email too for a very very big website. It mostly just sends confirmations and stuff like forgot password and whatever, no subscriptions, no newsletters, nothing. We have been mostly cruising but we still get occasionally banned. We have our own IP range too. Lately, Microsoft especially wants to hate us, somehow we dont even have a log of our emails bouncing, but people cant find them in their hotmail...??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- alex2003super · 2023-12-04 19:33 Of course. The statement that FOSS lost (or, more accurately, self- hosted lost—it doesn't really matter whether you're running Postfix or Exchange) when it comes to email is still true. The current email system works according to the idea that virtually all emailing is done from a few, well-qualified senders. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok-Creme4383 · 2023-12-04 19:36 Why are you doing this in the first place, anyways? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- aeroverra · 2023-12-04 19:42 Spamhaus and uceprotect are both extortionists. After about 2 years all my mail seems to be delivered without issues despite uceprotect regularly adding and removing me. I even host on an ovh ip. Most big mailers have converted to a grey list rather than listening to these idiots. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- orefat · 2023-12-04 19:44 Have you setup your RDNS correctly? What's the output when you do nslookup on your domain and do reverse lookup, they should match (IP follows domain name, domain name follows IP). Is the server EHLO correct? Can, or could you, send emails to outlook, Hotmail (Microsoft) addresses? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- anothercorgi · 2023-12-04 19:46 it'll cost lest per month and get more bandwidth... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- itsmill3rtime · 2023-12-04 20:12 yeah. i prefer managed solutions over pulling a hilary ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CerealkillerNOM · 2023-12-04 20:18 Seems some people find joy in pain ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joebakb · 2023-12-04 20:20 If your goal is to get into some enterprise, you may want to check with Cisco Umbrella too. They also have similar practices. They black-holed a subdomain of mine I set up for home use within a few weeks that I only used to VPN and a personal website. They eventually reversed it, though, with no intervention from me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- asprof34 · 2023-12-04 20:33 ipwarm.app ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Perpetual_Nuisance · 2023-12-04 20:50 I really don't get why it looked that way too you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- angel__-__- · 2023-12-04 20:54 I've been self hosting SMTP for like 8 years now but yeah I've never really sent that many emails. I did notice sometimes emails would be undelivered from it but never tried to do anything about it. I guess I'm still using that domain / server for receiving emails but for all my new emails I've switched to purelymail.com, which is super cheap and user friendly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheOriginalSamBell · 2023-12-04 21:22 Ah thanks for the explanation (and not just silently downvoting a polite question?!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bityard · 2023-12-04 22:27 "show me the incentives, and I will show you the outcome..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- AmbitiousFinger6359 · 2023-12-04 23:20 internet before: you can send/receive emails the way you want it just works, your also receive spam. internet now: you never know if your email will be received, you still receive spam. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EduRJBR · 2023-12-04 23:21 Maybe this warm up thing caused the issues? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- OhMyForm · 2023-12-04 23:33 UCEProtect is such a useless block list. If you're going to block anything on that list there's no fucking point in actually running an email server. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sagewah · 2023-12-04 23:34 I'm wondering if anybody has ever successfully sued these cowboys? Some of them are straight up extortion - demanding a payment for delisting - and at the very least claiming your server is sending spam but refusing to provide any proof feels a bit libelous... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ErebusBat · 2023-12-05 00:41 > only to be butchered by Spamhaus. How can Spamhaus be the police, judge and the executioner? Oh wait... All the big ones are like that. When I was doing something similar it was Yahoo / MS who were the biggest "Yup your blocked, lol" responses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ErebusBat · 2023-12-05 00:42 Didn't he say that he was starting a service like SendGrid? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok-Creme4383 · 2023-12-05 00:43 Ah, of course I skipped over that line. Good luck to OP. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ErebusBat · 2023-12-05 00:44 > At least for me, I always made sure to never touch anything email- related, that's how you become the "email guy". Found the Senior. I was that guy in a previous life. Quite interesting, but also challenging. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ErebusBat · 2023-12-05 00:47 Same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Epistaxis · 2023-12-05 00:49 Well yes, setting up a security measure incorrectly can be worse than not having it, but setting it up correctly is better than not having it. Did you have DKIM on this server? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- highedutechsup · 2023-12-05 01:07 Yup seems like spammer got busted for spamming? Amiright? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gocenik · 2023-12-05 01:53 That asshole even blocks AWS subnets. It usually starts with /24 and that can escalate up to whole ISP AS. Usually there is a reason for the block, and it's possible to find it on that horrible website, but the reason can be something like some of the ISP customers were doing NMAP scan. Regarding Cloudflare, do you use tunnels or A record? If it's the latter, they don't matter. So if you are not the ISP then split that /24 on lets say /26 from 4 different ISPs or VPN providers so you can move the customers domains to a clear subnet when (and not if) the next block happens. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gocenik · 2023-12-05 02:00 Don't :) Some services should remain hosted and email is No1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- distark · 2023-12-05 03:06 Yop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 04:37 Yep, I had DKIM setup correctly. Also, tried with Mail Tester to see if the email was being signed correctly or not ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 04:38 It's not entitled of me. The bare minimum they can do is provide evidence and solutions, instead of screaming "spam spam spam" at me. I've scanned through thousands of emails sent from my servers and I couldn't find anything suspicious. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 04:44 Yeah, the DNS and RDNS records seem to match. I also checked this through an email tester. The EHLO also seems right. Spamhaus offers a service to check this. I can no longer send emails to Microsoft based email addresses as they use Spamhaus. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 04:47 You sure, champ? https://ibb.co/ctV6rXd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 04:52 From what I heard, if you add new IP addresses to the same SPF record, they (almost) get the same reputation as the existing ones. But, this is only true for Microsoft based services. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---nom--- · 2023-12-05 04:54 Fyi, the easiest free way to setup email was aapanel. It was hell before this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 04:56 >Regarding Cloudflare, do you use tunnels or A record? If it's the latter, they don't matter. For the MTA sub-domains, I use A records because they cannot be identified otherwise. For the open and link tracker, I have Cloudflare tunnel enabled. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 05:02 It could be possible. I've disconnected all warmup services ---------------------------------------------------------------------- chillymoose · 2023-12-05 05:18 *sudo*masochists ---------------------------------------------------------------------- anothercorgi · 2023-12-05 05:30 Unfortunately this will be sendmail/Linux... How about if I have both old and new for a while and then remove old...this really rots when changing isps. I wish I could just get a speed upgrade instead of having to switch isps to get a more modern bandwidth... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- jimheim · 2023-12-05 05:58 It sure sounds to me like you're spamming. Spammers never *think* they're spammers, and spammers never *call themselves* spammers, but you'd have to convince me you're not. What are you doing that warrants spending six months, $20k, and tracking statistics on opens and clicks? Sure sounds like you're sending email that people probably don't want, and you're trying to increase the number of people who interact with it. Legitimate small businesses just pay Sendgrid or whomever to manage their mail, because it's essentially free at small scale, and all these problems go away. I host my own email for some personal domains, and I'm prepared for some delivery issues. What you're doing isn't selfhosting in the spirit of /r/SelfHosted. You're running some kind of business with an entirely different set of criteria. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 06:00 I am ***not*** spamming. Sending confirmation emails to users who register at my website is ***not*** spam. I am not using SendGrid because I am literally creating a SendGrid competitor. Have you tried reading the post? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 06:01 Also, I am not here to convince you. I am just sharing my experience with dealing with Spamhaus. I am not the first one to be blocked without any reasons provided, I won't be the last. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DaftPump · 2023-12-05 06:25 I have a hard time understanding why what this guy does is causing so much problems. If people know about his businss tactics why are they using his list in their edge appliances. What am I missing here? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ThatInternetGuy · 2023-12-05 06:25 You should never host an email server on residential IP. It won't work. It will never work. All the emails will go straight to spam folders, and never to the intended Inbox. I host email servers on VPS and they work just fine. It's just the IPs need to be clean to begin with, so make sure to check the IPs against SMTP IP blacklists, and make sure your domain is an established website for longer than one year. The older the better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 06:35 Yep, "keyword optimization" always results in shittier and pretentious content. Google killed authentic blogging. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FierceDeity_ · 2023-12-05 06:38 What a world. And due to i guess "tragedy of the commons" we all gotta take our share of the pain ---------------------------------------------------------------------- figs-and-thistles · 2023-12-05 07:28 I’ve worked at multiple platforms sending bulk to iCloud and other Apple addresses from IPs listed by UCEProtect, never seen an issue from that specifically. Most providers know it’s a scam I would be curious to see bounce messages or other evidence if you’re able to share! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5h4y-lab · 2023-12-05 07:34 I’ve worked at multiple platforms sending bulk to iCloud etc. from IPs listed by UCEProtect, never seen a real issue from that specifically. I would be curious to hear about specific bounce messages or evidence if you’re able to share anything! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Aggravating_Cell3805 · 2023-12-05 08:12 ef these nazis. so you invent a website to tell ppl u magically know who’s up to no good? nice trick. dude, you are very patient. it’s a virtue. 😂 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dumbasPL · 2023-12-05 08:17 God I wish email was dead, but it refuses to die. Transactional email is what ruined it IMO, pls stop. The "warm up" services are pure snake oil, if you're only sending emails that people are expecting/want (password resets, verifications, emails sent by real humans) then you are going to get high CTR anyway, if you're sending spam (newsletters, promotions, etc) then don't be surprised when a person like me reports your shit everywhere possible. The only reason these "spam filtering" companies exist is to force you to pay them if you want to send spam. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 08:19 Hehe, I ain't stopping. But, I agree with you on "warm up" services. I won't be using that anymore. I'll stick to my own site and its transactional emails - reset password, confirmation and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gocenik · 2023-12-05 08:25 I'm not an expert in emails, but this looks to me like a problem. Some email providers might see the use of Cloudflare services as an attempt to obfuscate the source of the emails, which can be a red flag for spam. Also make sure that SPF, DKIM, and DMARC are set by the book, if possible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- unixuser011 · 2023-12-05 08:38 well, there's a reason the major mail providers don't use UCEProtect. This guy will blacklist your entire AS number and then you'd need to pay to get off it, total scam, plain and simple But because spam is [was] a major issue, I'd guess it's somthing like 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 08:43 Yeah, it could be possible. I've moved my DNS to a different provider and technically, everything such as DKIM, SPF, and DMARC is OK. I also changed my MTA and tracking domain to an 8-year old domain, so I imagine that domain age won't be a problem anymore. Also, removed Whois privacy and added my real details there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 09:09 Spamhaus is a rogue company. It's based in a small European country and does not answer to any lawsuits or comply with any court orders globally. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- notanatifa75 · 2023-12-05 10:34 SpamHaus is paid off by the spammers. They only blacklist honest email providers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gocenik · 2023-12-05 11:03 Good luck :) I've would recommend making a web scraper or similar for Uceprotect and monitor the AS of your ISP if you are not sure that they are monitoring it themselves (which most of them don't). It takes one spammer and few weeks, maybe days of not noticing until the whole AS is blacklisted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 11:20 Thanks for the suggestion. I am currently using MX toolbox, they are very good with monitoring IP addresses and Glock Apps is also great for testing email deliverability to major email service providers every day or even more often. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ZyanCarl · 2023-12-05 11:59 Hahaha I agree. We can never come up to the standards of giants but I love knowing how these things work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DWLeveller · 2023-12-05 12:50 Yeah, its annoying when you have to give in and depend on tech companies for certain products/services - you can loose your account at any point which is what I don't like. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DWLeveller · 2023-12-05 12:52 Haha soo true - you still retrieve spam regardless. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avanchnzel · 2023-12-05 13:31 And that's why I'll never run my own email service. Feels like trying to build your own Hadron collider at home. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lopsided-Juggernaut1 · 2023-12-05 14:29 If I set SPF and DKIM properly, why other mail servers may not trust my ip for email sending? Any how someone can hack those SPF and DKIM, and pretend to be someone else? What do you think? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lopsided-Juggernaut1 · 2023-12-05 14:36 Hi, I want to write my own SMTP server for sending and receiving email. Can you please dm me some tips, documentation, or anything helpful. Thanks in advance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gangsta_lean · 2023-12-05 15:25 CSS is not atypical if you have contiguous IP addresses wired with rDNS sending email, whether it is spam or not. As you mentioned, SH is a criminal gang that extorts money from datacenters. There is a way to avoid CSS listings. Again, it's contiguous IPs wired with similar rDNS. They just automate listings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Squeebee007 · 2023-12-05 15:29 If they are not afraid of lawsuits, I can guarantee you they are not afraid of someone complaining on Twitter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Squeebee007 · 2023-12-05 15:31 You doomed yourself as soon as you used a warmup service. No legitimate sender uses warmup services, so all you did was put your hand up that you were going to start sending spam soon on those domains/IPs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 15:39 I beg to differ. While I understand that their services may have little to no effect on deliverability, but they are not sending random spam to random email addresses. Most of the emails go to their accounts in their network. Is the practice questionable? For sure! Am I going to continue using warmup services? Hell no! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Squeebee007 · 2023-12-05 15:40 >I beg to differ. And that's why I'm reaching the inbox and you are blocked. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- figs-and-thistles · 2023-12-05 15:40 yes, DKIM and SPF help but do have vulnerabilities. also, authenticated spam is still spam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5h4y-lab · 2023-12-05 15:42 yes, DKIM and SPF help but do have vulnerabilities. also, authenticated spam is still spam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 15:46 It's easy to build an SMTP server for receiving emails, but you're in a ride if you're building an MTA (outbound emails). I do not recommend building an MTA because it's very time consuming. Nevertheless, you can find a simple example of a PHP based SMTP server: [https://github.com/TheFox/smtpd](https://github.com/TheFox/smtpd) This is not a production-grade project and should not be used as such. You can also ask ChatGPT to help you with it since an SMTP server is a very basic TCP server. It becomes complex when you start adding features like incoming spam detection, ensuring that SPF and DKIM records match, honouring DMARC and sending DMARC reports, maintaining your own spam-filter and so on. This is also a good guide: [https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/simple-mail- transfer-protocol-smtp/](https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/simple-mail- transfer-protocol-smtp/) If you're building your own MTA, please look into ZoneMTA and Haraka. They are production-ready and you can easily expand them with plugins to integrate more functionality: for example, dynamic DKIM signing using a MySQL or Mongo database instead of managing the key list in a file or smart routing based on the IP addresses or service provider you're sending to ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lopsided-Juggernaut1 · 2023-12-05 17:17 OK, I will check. Thanks for the details. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lopsided-Juggernaut1 · 2023-12-05 17:23 OK, Thank You. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RedWyvv · 2023-12-05 18:22 Good on you. One or 2 weeks and you get on Spamhaus SBL for no reason ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Squeebee007 · 2023-12-05 18:45 Been years without that happening, but sure whatever you say. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nefarious_bumpps · 2023-12-05 20:12 Lawsuits requires jurisdiction. Spamhaus is domiciled in Angora. Attempting to sue Spamhaus in another jurisdiction would be a waste of time and money. However, Spamhaus is only valuable to it's users if it is accurate. If the public awareness is increased regarding false positives and lack of effective appeals process, their reputation will fall. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Squeebee007 · 2023-12-05 20:20 Spamhaus users trust them more than random complainers. OP used a warmup service and was rightly flagged for it, there’s no false positive. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- somebodyknows_ · 2023-12-05 20:22 I received negative feedbacks months ago for saying email is a de facto monopoly. I'll say it again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mxroute · 2023-12-05 20:55 Warmup services deploy the same methods used by Boris Mizhen, and look how well that worked out for him: [https://www.spamfighter.com/News-14638-Microsoft-Sues-Spammer-Mizhen- in-Federal- Court.htm](https://www.spamfighter.com/News-14638-Microsoft-Sues- Spammer-Mizhen-in-Federal-Court.htm) You used a bad service which uses shady methodology, which is the same methodology used by spammers to prepare for large spam campaigns (and because you're new, no one can tell that you're not about to be one of them). You likely used domains in transit that were under 60 days in age. Combine those two and landing on Spamhaus was always inevitable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mkspears813 · 2023-12-05 21:33 MXroute knows their shit when it comes to mail, take their advice! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- random74639 · 2023-12-05 21:45 So you just up and learned everything about email hosting from zero, built you own software to catch spam and maintained good reputation from day 1? Dude, did you document this? Write a book or something I would not hesitate a second to spend upwards of 100 bucks to read that. There are only 2 types of IT people - those that host emails or tried, and those who stay the fuck away from this, because everyone we know or heard of that tried to do it came back with a death stare that would trump Okinawa marine's death stare. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BarServer · 2023-12-05 22:46 Just came across this article: https://tuta.com/blog/outlook-falsely- marks-tutanota-emails-as-junk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Silly_Sense_8968 · 2023-12-06 00:08 And after all this, I still get spam… ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mxroute · 2023-12-06 00:16 They need to ask for temporary mitigation again and then religiously watch their feedback loop address. If they don't have that feedback loop set up, they need to. Hotmail's filters are bad. So bad that emails from Microsoft themselves routinely land in their own spam folder. But the rest of us aren't totally helpless, there are things that can be done to help the situation. Figuring out what emails are most likely causing it is what the FBL should help with. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BrocoLeeOnReddit · 2023-12-06 00:19 What I've learned in nearly 20 years in IT that email is just stupid as a standard and it's stupid that we still use it. It started in the 70s and we're still using essentially the same thing just with extension upon extension Frankensteined onto it. And the worst part? End-to-end encryption STILL isn't the default. Every shitty smartphone app has it built in these days. But the very basis of business communication? Nah, let's overprice and/or overcomplicate it and fight about whether to use S/MIME or PGP. And most small and mid size businesses don't even bother. And, as you just experienced: In 50 years, we still haven't figured out how to solve spam effectively without screwing legitimate senders/receivers. What a beautiful system. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tiagovla · 2023-12-06 02:19 Just curious, what does warming up emails/IPs mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ballarddude · 2023-12-06 16:48 Actually I think it was the Apple email addresses on the [mac.com](https://mac.com) domain that were being rejected due to the postfix server being hosted at Digital Ocean. UCEPROTECT blocks a wide range, perhaps all (?), Digital Ocean IP addresses. I've had this server on the same IP for over 15 years and have never been on any other block lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheLinuxMailman · 2023-12-07 18:10 >I wrote my own SMTP server this is a *very* bad idea for security. > RDNS, DKIM, DMARC, and SPF. You should also be using DNSSEC, TLSA and MTA-STS to stand apart from the spammers, which enhances your reputation. You have an essential start but it is incomplete. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheLinuxMailman · 2023-12-07 18:47 Don't depend on search engines to give you a free soapbox then. There are other ways to reach people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheLinuxMailman · 2023-12-07 18:59 Check out [dnswl.org](https://dnswl.org) for whitelisting before greylisting. I have been running mail servers for 20 years, but I just discovered [dnswl.org](https://dnswl.org) this week. With minimal testing so far, it seems to have solved the problem of greylisting causing non-delivery of gmail and others constantly attemtping delivery from another UP address, without increasing any spam blocked by spamhaus. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- devkareem · 2023-12-08 04:37 This guy mails! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheLinuxMailman · 2023-12-08 16:03 lol. Thanks. I have runn a home (email, others) server since the 1990s, first on Unix, then Linux. It's been a fun, and at times frustrating, educational project which gave me total control of my email and better privacy. Even then, like just this past week, I make a stupid config mistake. Hooray for Postfix's soft\_bounce! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lanky_Information825 · 2023-12-18 15:32 >hat does warming up emails/IPs mean The practice of gradually increasing emails with a new email or domain over time, to build reputation - most often accompanied with monitoring spam reports etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kev-wqa · 2023-12-25 08:56 It's not just about domain age but also about consistent activity over long term. "non-spam" domains and IPs that are businesses gradually send emails over a long period of time. I worked in email for 10 years and my conclusion is that there is a game behind the scenes. It's pay to play.