Now that RocketChat 6.5 limits to 25 users or less what are you moving to? reddit / selfhosted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-03 20:15 Kind of wild watching this open source chat run out the open source corporate endgame but I never thought they would enact as severe user limits as they now have done for the free self-hosted plan. 25 might be fine for family chats but for non-profits or event-based chats; the latter my thing where a handful of people coordinate throughout the year and then 30 to 50 (more?) are around during the event week, this is the end. I thought for awhile that the 25 limit was going to apply to a free- hosted-by-RocketChat basic plan but 6.5 self-hosted has the limit as far as I can see so... there we go. My options are: 1) Stick with the 5x series. I never moved to 6x at all when they started adding app/plugin limits for the free versions - that kinda made me a bit sus of what was to come. 2) Mattermost, which is fine but I'd lose 8+ years of events. Someone has a converter but right now that's a non-starter due to the size of our loadout and the basic early-days nature of the converter. Could always keep the RC instance going for archive purposes I suppose. 3) Matrix, which honestly, tempting... Looking for anyone to chime in with other options/opinions if they see/know any. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MSTRMN_ · 2023-12-03 20:24 Mattermost has no 2FA and SSO in the free version, you also can't change the ToU from default, and a bunch of other restrictions (unless I'm wrong) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-03 20:34 MM has no user count limits (apparent, or any that matter to me) which is the main thing and 2FA, SSO, etc. are not required for my particular use. Roles are not required either - this isn't a hugely structured thing, it's just the coordinated hangout and event-week yelling place; we have other software for the formal important stuff. I already have an instance spun up on a cheap VPS and like I said, its fine. I liked the Kanban stuff you could add but that just went out-the-door for official support and I'm not sure the MM user community has enough to keep it compatible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MenisBornBad · 2023-12-03 21:05 I think it is triggering a license change from Community Edition to Enterprise trial license if you have connected to the Cloud console when you upgrade to 6.5. You can change the license type from the register section on the workspace configuration. Only press cancel to the license and then restart the application and is going to stay in the Community Edition and Remove the cap for the users. I lost like 8 hours recovering backups and having the same problem, the change in my case was done in the Cloud Registration. I think that more than a mistake they did this, they are putting more and more pressure to us removing features and introducing bugs to convince us to get Enterprise license. Its time to move on to another application. $4 by users is to much for small company if you only need Chat Services. I think that Google or Microsoft offer bether services for that money. I only need for internal communications (Chat), so I will try Discourse, they have a Chat Plugin and the forum is really good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2023-12-03 21:13 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-03 21:26 Is that what's going on? Damn they have that pretty-much non- documented. Which... tracks given where they are going as a company. I'll pull Snap backup and run the upgrade and see what shakes. Can always roll back then. The more I poke Matrix though the more I'm liking it and thinking of just ripping off the band-aid and making the move (Mattermost would be a lateral move at best). Looked at Matrix 3 years ago and it was pretty raw but looking now I'm wondering if this ain't the rebirth of IRC (in a good, modern way). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dontquestionmyaction · 2023-12-03 21:34 RocketChat has always given me absolutely terrible selfhost vibes. Very good I didn't go with them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rrrmmmrrrmmm · 2023-12-03 21:37 > Mattermost has no 2FA and SSO in the free version I thought that's just an artificial limit? Because it is also possible to use GitLab as an SSO provider for OIDC and people just use the same fields so that Mattermost thinks that it is speaking to GitLab. So you can use it with [Authentik](https://www-ayedo- de.translate.goog/posts/mattermost-self-hosted-sso-mit- authentik/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=de&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp), [Keycloak](https://github.com/rgrunbla/Keycloak-Mattermost-Auto- Generate-Id) or anything else with custom claims. You can also work around this by [adding NGINX rules](https://github.com/mattermost/matt ermost/issues/15606#issuecomment-1549415513) or [Traefik rules](https: //github.com/mattermost/mattermost/issues/15606#issuecomment- 1604461145). And according to the docs [2FA/MFA is available on all plans](https://docs.mattermost.com/onboard/multi-factor- authentication.html) (which would naturally include the free plan). > you also can't change the ToU from default, That's a thing that is true for real. I mean, technically you _could_ still change this with another NGINX rule or so but yes, they expect you to pay for that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rrrmmmrrrmmm · 2023-12-03 21:44 > Someone has a converter but right now that's a non-starter due to the size of our loadout and the basic early-days nature of the converter. Do you have a link to that script? 🥺 Is it [this one](https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost/issues/14792 #issuecomment-1184854360)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SrIzan10 · 2023-12-03 21:53 yesterday I started hosting a matrix server with conduit.rs I’m really happy with it and thank god I didn’t remember rocketchat existed when looking at services ---------------------------------------------------------------------- fuuman1 · 2023-12-03 21:54 I am using MM for family chats (which is pretty close to your use case) and I have no problems. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MrNighty · 2023-12-03 21:58 I haven't tested it myself but there is also Zulip. They are open source and even offer an importer for RocketChat: [https://zulip.com/help/import-from- rocketchat](https://zulip.com/help/import-from-rocketchat) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-03 21:59 True, self-hosting was a grind 8 years ago. It was all on you to install and config libraries, mongo, etc. Once they got Docker going it got better (read: sane), and once they made a Snap for it I just grabbed a cheap VPS, installed the Snap, imported the few years of chat we had back then, and moved on with my life (**it really is that easy now**). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-03 22:01 Dogs which is a non-starter for me (there's a lot I'd have to pre- game...) Checking out your other link now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- adamshand · 2023-12-03 22:04 I don't understand why Zulip isn't more popular. Actual open source with a better threading model than anything else. The only downside is their mobile clients were a bit meh when I last looked. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-03 22:05 Interesting. It's basically Slack/RC/MM but within a channel/room you can spark a sub-channel as a single topic. Never knew this existed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- AdamDhahabi · 2023-12-03 22:31 I played around with MM after happily using RocketChat for many years. I was surprised how little memory it uses, the sames goes for Postgres compared to MongoDB. Some disadvantages though: \- no way to add avatars/emoticons to the room names \- no way to isolate users within teams (e.g. when you want to invite someone to a thread, all users, also non-team members will be show by the UI) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tankerkiller125real · 2023-12-03 23:00 Matrix is good, but I find the layout of the channels/chats kind of hard to deal with. [https://github.com/revoltchat](https://github.com/revoltchat) is good if you like discord (it's an open source clone, that even clones the discord APIs, so discord bots work with it) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MenisBornBad · 2023-12-03 23:06 The only problem with matrix is that you cannot deny users from creating new channels or having one-on-one conversations, if this is not an impediment for you, then matrix is a very good alternative and rock solid right now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- codysnider · 2023-12-03 23:19 Matrix. We've been using it for both text and video chat with our company and it has never given me a problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EndlessHiway · 2023-12-03 23:42 AOL messenger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- atomomelette · 2023-12-04 00:06 “Open source”. Fork the release in favor of more than 25 users… ---------------------------------------------------------------------- frozen-sky · 2023-12-04 00:08 We run zulip and mattermost. The tech behind zulip is nice, but the user interface needs work. Most people prefer the mm interface. Think this is the main issue it is lacking popularity. For me personally the threads are not so working, too many different threads makes is a bit chaotic imho. Losing overview. I hope however that zulip can develop as real alternative and improve on those aspects ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ethereal_g · 2023-12-04 00:09 This. An ansible playbook to run it as well ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-04 00:58 No stopping users from making channels? Hmmm. The one-to-ones are fine (no diff from Slack/MM/RC) but that one I'll have to think about even with my well-behaved users. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- revereddesecration · 2023-12-04 01:10 Zulip is great, give it a go ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-04 01:20 Well this was linked on a discourse post from them: [https://8859759.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/8859759/Rocket.C hat%20Community%20vs.%20Starter%20plan.pdf](https://8859759.fs1.hubspo tusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/8859759/Rocket.Chat%20Community%20vs.%20Sta rter%20plan.pdf) Clearly indicates Starter vs Community so my 25 user rant appears to be for naught. Now I just need to decide if it's worth the hassle to detach from RC. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FierceDeity_ · 2023-12-04 01:21 Mongo is a terrible decision anyway for something like that imo. Yes it makes it easier on the dev, but at the cost of making it worse in practice lmao. If only Docker makes it sane, then the project is still insane, the insanity was just hidden behind a layer... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FierceDeity_ · 2023-12-04 01:21 Well if it's open source, fork it and remove the user limit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DogRocketeer · 2023-12-04 01:30 im in the process of trying out matrix. Simply because the boards and lists in mattermost are kinda "arcadey". Its just better to use a proper kanban solution. Its a neat idea to integrate but its more work than its worth in my opinion. The major reason and moving away from mattermost is that you can't set notification sounds on the mobile app. Insane to me. Now my wife and I are never checking messages any more cuz they all sound like the default android app sound. Kinda nuts they wouldnt implement this. I saw you noticed my script from moving to MM from RC. It still works well for what it does. The "pre-work" isnt so bad but if you have a lot of users you could just automate the pre-work. Assuming the other suggested solution doesnt work for you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KrazyKirby99999 · 2023-12-04 02:10 Like Matrix threads? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KrazyKirby99999 · 2023-12-04 02:18 It might take some time to figure out how to do it, but it is possible: - https://matrix-org.github.io/synapse/latest/modules/third_party_rule s_callbacks.html?highlight=third%20party%20rules#on_create_room - https://github.com/matrix- org/synapse/issues/7331#issuecomment-619845033 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Itsthejoker · 2023-12-04 02:19 We never ran Zulip because the interface is / was completely incomprehensible to screen readers, and when I asked them a few years ago at a conference if they had any accessibility changes in the pipeline, their answer was "...no, and we're not expecting to". 🤷‍♂️ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- adamshand · 2023-12-04 02:28 That's a good reason I wasn't aware of! This isn't an area I know much about, but it looks like maybe things have got better? https://github.com/zulip/zulip/blob/8a1630ee425b451e3c3b86ef7d0c0eb907 b83e75/docs/subsystems/accessibility.md?plain=1#L4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Itsthejoker · 2023-12-04 02:32 Oh wow! That's great news. Thanks for the link! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thefpspower · 2023-12-04 02:37 >If only Docker makes it sane, then the project is still insane, the insanity was just hidden behind a layer... Oof, you just hit so much software out there. I agree though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FierceDeity_ · 2023-12-04 02:41 Yeah, there are sadly so many docker containers of software that are hodgepodge copy a ton of things into random directories, run as root and good luck ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SolFlorus · 2023-12-04 03:38 Matrix isn’t really a stable option either though. They were begging for money this year. It’s just a matter of time before they start adding restrictions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- codysnider · 2023-12-04 04:51 Matrix isn't a service, it's a specification. The server and client you use is up to you. Saying Matrix isn't a suitable option is like saying email isn't an option. Sure, Gmail or ProtonMail may ask for money, but that doesn't mean email ceases to exist. It's a federated specification. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SolFlorus · 2023-12-04 05:02 The two largest matrix servers (Synapse & Dendrite) are from the same organization. 95% of all matrix development work comes from that organization (taken from their AGPL blog post). The largest client also is from that exact same organization. The only alternative server is Conduit, which is primarily developed by a recent graduate that has expressed doubt that he will continue the project once out of school. Matrix is Element, and Element is Matrix. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- codysnider · 2023-12-04 05:46 Click "fork" in the top right corner. Now it's yours, too. Forever. Patch it when you need to, pull from upstream or other forks. What's great about running something that's so open is you get lots of server implementations and lots of client implementations. Here's a few servers: Dendrite: It's a second-generation Matrix server written in Go, aiming for high performance and scalability. Conduit: A Matrix homeserver written in Rust, focusing on efficiency and low resource consumption. Construct: This is a community-driven effort to build a high- performance Matrix server in C++. As far as I see it, it checks all the significant boxes: 1) Free 2) Open 3) Feature-rich 4) Resilient to a single company locking it down 5) Federated ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Traditional_Wafer_20 · 2023-12-04 06:40 This kind of sound feature is nice to have because it's Android that provides it in the first place. It's in your OS parameters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DogRocketeer · 2023-12-04 07:27 specifically for mattermost you **CAN NOT** change the sound. if you have found a place for this please let me know cuz im certain there isnt in mattermost or in the OS. I just installed the element matrix android app and sure enough can choose any sound. regardless of where the setting is. Rocket chat can do it too!.... mattermost... nope. ​ its 2023, this isnt a nice to have (in my opinion), its a requirement. When every other app uses the default os sound for default notifications for system things, a CHAT program with real-time communications should not be using that same default. I was legit blown away by the fact that a real time chat program cant specify a message tone. we were able to do this on flip phones in 2003. A real "nice to have" is being able to change the text bubble colors, that isnt a requirement but sure, a nice to have. Anyway, its 100% a no go for us. When i get a message from a family member I dont want even a slight subconscious ignore of it. I wish I'd known that before I migrated but who would even think it wouldnt allow that. I'm gonna try out Zulip as well as Element/Matrix a bit more. The latter is kinda lacking in some actual nice to haves tho as well, like cant even pin a message! A requirement though, cant search when e2e encryption is enabled on the app! Thats a non-starter... i search messages daily when im on the go for info. Theres also no "easy" way to turn e2e encryption off without some hacks which is crazy to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ptman · 2023-12-04 07:56 Not quite ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TBT_TBT · 2023-12-04 09:24 We have used MM with now 450 users and Gitlab SSO cost free for years now at work. Can highly recommend it. Rocket Chat was really never acceptable for us because of 2 main reasons: - all users on the server are in „1“ team (there is no concept of „sub-servers“ or teams as in Mattermost. - the cost free push notification limit was always waaaay too low for more than only a couple users. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Astorek86 · 2023-12-04 09:29 >Mattermost has no 2FA \[...\] in the free version It has. We are using the Team-Edition and you can enable 2FA. Altough, you cannot *enforce* 2FA to the users, that feature is available on Matterpost Professional/Enterprise only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -AdmiralThrawn- · 2023-12-04 11:43 Matrix is a protocol. The layout you are referring to is probably the layout of element. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lukeeno_ · 2023-12-04 12:34 For me Zulip. Their way of threading is similar to email and actually makes a lot of sense. They OSS model is stable and future-proof. Highly recommend it. They are working on new frontend for every device. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gabriel_engel · 2023-12-04 13:01 Hello, I'm Gabriel Engel, the founder of Rocket.Chat. I want to clarify that there is no new limitation for community use. We've recently introduced a plan offering all enterprise features for free to groups with fewer than 25 users. For those with more users, you have the opportunity to try the enterprise features. After the trial period, the system will automatically revert to the community version. However, you have the option to bypass the trial in the admin settings. I emphasize that we are not imposing any restrictions; instead, we're providing the enterprise version free to small teams and inviting larger teams to experience it. Let's view this as the positive initiative it is. For more details, please visit our forum: [https://forums.rocket.chat/t/introducing-the-starter-plan-free- access-to-premium-features-for-limited-scale- use/18736](https://forums.rocket.chat/t/introducing-the-starter-plan- free-access-to-premium-features-for-limited-scale-use/18736) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ninacdr · 2023-12-04 13:20 If you want to make back to community just go in workspace > subscription in the end of page is gonna have a button. “ cancel subscription “ you are back to community whiteout any limitations. 🙂 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hudell · 2023-12-04 13:37 The title scared me a bit, but they are just giving free access to the enterprise stuff if you have less than 25 users, you can still use the community version with no user limit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RucksM · 2023-12-04 13:59 The easier option in that case is to click in Cancel Subscription, in Workspace>Subscription. Your [Rocket.Chat](https://Rocket.Chat) workspace will be Community Edition again. No feature is missing in Community Edition compared to the latest edition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HerefortheLAN · 2023-12-04 14:59 I agree too. Docker was/is a dev tool that has mutated into production ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-04 16:29 Dropping some hard truth here... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prfttk · 2023-12-04 16:33 Thanks for popping in! Maybe make that more clear on the website? I had to find my way to your Discourse page to find that comparison PDF, and that's only after I went digging around in search engines for it. If that was front and center (what the Community Edition is, etc.) this thread would have never been made. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- migsperez · 2023-12-04 16:36 If the application is good, useful and open source, shouldn't the community fork the project entirely. Rename and begin an alternative development path, remove restrictions? I've never done it personally but I always thought that was the biggest benefit of open source community projects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ScratchinCommander · 2023-12-04 17:17 Good suggestion here, OP. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Traditional_Wafer_20 · 2023-12-05 18:48 [https://www.google.com/search?q=android+change+notification+sound+per +app](Android lets you change the sound per app). It's actually the way to do it as it overrides any changes in app. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gabriel_engel · 2023-12-05 19:54 Good points. Our team is working on it and we will do better in the future. We were so excited about giving back to the community enterprise features for free that we did not see the room for misunderstanding. We should have known better and I do apologise for it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DogRocketeer · 2023-12-05 20:00 I stand corrected. it does work. thank you! I guess a lot of apps link directly from the app but mattermost in categories has two, high and low importance. both are a radio button so it doesnt look like the lines are clickable. but when you click one you get more options, who'da thought? https://imgur.com/S4sAfje my wife will be happy with this since she was hating the 'ugly' UI of Zulip. thanks again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DogRocketeer · 2023-12-05 20:21 our small group is demo-ing zulip right now. its odd that they bury the read receipts behind two context menus rather than just show it on the message. some weird decisions in the app over all. But the functionality is good and the features are decent. They seem to be quite active on the dev side which is nice. Integrations look good. As you mentioned tho, the UI is uggggggggly. The windows one is a bit better but still looks like something from 90's message boards. The mobile app is somehow even uglier and bare. We like that when mattermost opens it opens to your last convo. Zulip always drops you into the "unread messages" page. for some ppl that only talk to one person, this is annoying. The mobile app also doesnt let you put gifs in chats either. It might sound silly but some times I have whole convos or just replies as gifs lol I also noticed it doesnt let you play videos inline. you have to download it to play it which is silly. I do see a crazy amount of changes coming in their v8 release though. That might improve some things. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- adamshand · 2023-12-05 21:18 If you'd like to see it get better, post feature requests to their Github (or like ones that already exist!). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dazzling_Ad1507 · 2023-12-06 10:32 I set up revolt chat myself twice. Its really not that difficult as its just a mongodb and s3 bucket + the server. Id encourage anyone to at least try out the official instance before disregarding it as an option. I really like it!