Lightweight linux reddit / selfhosted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 07:11 So I'm dabbling around in selfhosting, and now am just running on a shitty old laptop. There for I'm looking for the most resource friendly Linux when it comes to idle'ing and doing nothing. As most my vm's are on idle and are only used periodically. But it needs to also be perfomant. So just like debian... Yet... I know Ubuntu, debian, they are pretty easy to use. Debian is lightweight, yet it's still heavy. As I tend do make a vm for every new application to manage it easy. Home assistant, adguardhome, nextcloud, etc... Their Ubuntu's and debian's on idle are resource intensive against what I recently found... Turnkey Linux. Turnkeylinux is pretty much debian but stripped down. It uses less then half of what debian needs in resources, and on idle uses litterly a few mb's of ram. Yet there is one important thing that simply does not want to work on it, and it's Unbound. So as I want to get all my vm's on the same distro, that option goes out the window. So my question is, if not debian, what are other maybe more lightweight Linux's that are recommended? Or should I just stick with debian as comments are full of it. Or do you know any other gems like turnkey? (centOS and other old, non alive Linux are not a option either.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- j0nathanr · 2023-11-19 07:38 A separate vm for each service sounds very recourse intensive, I'm not sure how it would be easier to manage either. All the services you listed can be run in docker, why not do that and use a single vm? Anyhow, if you still want a separate vm for each service, lxc containers on proxmox are probably your best bet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No_Dragonfruit_5882 · 2023-11-19 07:57 If you do that, is it still able to use different vlans for each container? That would be a + for different vms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HearthCore · 2023-11-19 07:58 Maybe you should look at ProxMox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ro55mo · 2023-11-19 08:11 You are running the VMs headless right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 08:14 Alpine Linux, 200MB in size. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- j0nathanr · 2023-11-19 08:15 Yep you can use something called a macvlan network for the container. Docker bridge networks are by nature already isolated from the host network though. You have to manually expose the ports you need unless you specify a macvlan network or the host network. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 08:17 It's for onto proxmox... Still need a Linux version to use as vm 😅 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 08:18 As u mean on straight hardware, no... On proxmox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 08:22 I am not that experienced with docker, switch programs alot, and it's just easier to manage in my opinion, towards smresources, and surely towards ports and port forwarding and ip assigning... That's why I use straight up vm's. + like nextcloud and immich I have for storage backups, I need to easily be able to get into their file system. I know theoretically I can do all that with docker but damn, setting up a basic vm with all that, with no experience takes 5 minutes. Figuring out how to do all that with docker would take me houres 😅 It's not that resource intensive... Just... Looking for even less intensive 😂 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JoeB- · 2023-11-19 08:47 How much RAM is installed in your shitty old laptop? If less than 8 GB, then running Proxmox and VMs may not be the best solution. Docker containers are a lot less resource intensive (storage, CPU, and RAM) than VMs. I'm running ... * a three-node Proxmox cluster (totaling 20C/36T of CPU and 208 GB RAM) for compute and memory intensive VMs like Windows servers/clients, MySQL, and ELK, but * my DIY NAS (2C/4T and 16 GB RAM) runs minimal Debian with the Cockpit web UI and hosts 20 Docker containers managed by Portainer without breaking a sweat, typically utilizing <10% CPU and around 6 GB RAM. I understand from one of your comments that you are not experienced with Docker and prefer VMs; however, you may want to reconsider Docker if you are hardware constrained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- autisticit · 2023-11-19 09:01 Headless as in without GUI. I use one Debian VM (sometimes 2 or 3, but rarely) per VLAN, each being a Docker host. I don't find Debian being heavy personnaly tho. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- blind_guardian23 · 2023-11-19 09:55 Proxmox is Debian. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- blind_guardian23 · 2023-11-19 10:03 Dont bother unless you go embedded. diskspace is no concern, special distros like alpine leave out the important management tools and once you want to debug something you're f..d aka reinstall packages back to debian size. There are cloud-images for running VMs, go Container If you are Low on RAM usage (shared Kernel). Idle behavior is the same across all flavors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 10:11 Alpine Linux is not a great suggestion for someone who doesn't know Linux well, since the lack of libc can and does lead to occasional compatibility problems. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 10:16 Yeh without gui's, my Ubuntu are still with gui's but I can work without, debian is not heavy, but there are still lighter Linux's out there 😅 but I think it will be debian for the ease of use... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Past-Sky3552 · 2023-11-19 10:16 You can use the LXC instead of a vm in proxmox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 10:23 My laptop now runs on 20gb of ram (4 soldered + 16 sodimm) It's a 2 core 4 thread laptop, and does it's job... I just experience that it dares to be slow sometimes, while its cpu never really gets hit that hard. So the limiter I thought it be, is os... I've seen other people have weird issues with debian beeing slow for some reason, so I'm looking for all possible alternatives. Could ofcourse be the debian and proxmox combo having a issue, Idk, maybe I'll try vmware in the future (as we do at work). Docker is not a option (yet) maybe in the future when I get more services etc running, but for now it's proxmox. I'm looking to expand and buy a real server, so that will already be alot of difference towards performance. But it's for home use, and since I live in Western-Europe, effeciency is key, and all performance an power I can save will be saved 😅 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 10:26 That's why I setup a new vm for each program, if it works, perfect onto the next, if it doesn't, delete vm, start over if I have to... No issue. 😅 I will Atleast look into Alpine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 10:29 Have not found how to set it up properly yet, but then also haven't really looked into it 😅 might give it a go if its not to hard to setup. Any effort is too much effort you know 😅😂 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Capital_Height_4480 · 2023-11-19 10:33 Manjaro and docker ---------------------------------------------------------------------- daYMAN007 · 2023-11-19 10:37 >That's why I setup a new vm for each program, if it works, perfect onto the next, if it doesn't, delete vm, start over if I have to... No issue. 😅 I will Atleast look into Alpine If you want to save on resources you should use containers instead of vm's. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 10:44 That's the spirit. You know Debian already, Alpine will show you other ways to do Linux. You can also look at CentOS/RHEL or Arch and so on. They all have benefits. Alpine is just pretty awesome because it contains no garbage and is 100% POSIX compatible via musl, something the other poster /u/lilalolu doesn't know of. She just tries to scare you off for the sake of sounding superior but has no knowledge of either glibc or musl. Don't listen to people like her. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 10:45 Doesn't help if OP wants to try out different host OS for containers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thekrautboy · 2023-11-19 10:47 Click the "Create CT" button in Proxmox, select a template to use, for example Debian, fill out the rest of the options (very similar to a VM), then start it up. /r/Proxmox also exists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 10:47 Pretty much every distro has a minimal version, including ubuntu. I think the better criteria for choosing a distro are release management, community support, and general architecture of package management etc. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Minimal https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/ https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Netboot Etc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- edwinmiracle · 2023-11-19 11:15 Dietpi - lightweight Debian ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 11:19 Ah it's troll again. https://wiki.musl-libc.org/open-issues ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 11:29 Someone working in video production who barely makes ends meet should not be giving software development advice online to strangers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 11:30 Troll ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 11:31 Sorry mate but you should do therapy or something. Stalking people on Reddit to dox them is borderline sociopath. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 11:36 No it's called eidetic memory, helps to remmember what someone wrote three months ago. You should try it, maybe you wouldn't have to struggle so bad anymore because you could actually remember what you discussed with your clients. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 11:37 Troll ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 11:44 I guess your video production is as creative as your writing, that explains the struggle for jobs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 11:46 Troll ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 11:47 Seriously, consider therapy, its not healthy what you are doing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tech2but1 · 2023-11-19 11:51 [DietPi](https://dietpi.com/). I have quite a few VMs running DietPi, very light, simple, "just works"! I have to reluctantly use Docker which is cumbersome, awkward and confusing in comparison. A DietPi VM is simple and easy to run, use and more importantly, keep backed up. I really hate being forced to use Docker when DietPi exists and works! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 11:55 Don't worry about me, my life is pretty much perfect in every way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkyG1969 · 2023-11-19 12:20 What about ProtonOS, very small lightweight, I have 2 VM's running in my VCentre using it, the rest are using Ubuntu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-19 12:25 It doesn't seem like it if you are spending your free time stalking people on Reddit. But maybe that's what you consider a perfect life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 12:59 That's the good part about assumptions, you know nothing, you're just guessing and that's just sad. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DarkCeptor44 · 2023-11-19 13:32 OP just wants an excuse to not learn Docker, I have 10 containers running on a Orange Pi with 1GB of RAM, on Debian 11. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 13:42 I learned docker at school... Its not from not wanting, it's simply information that's not going in. Atleast the way we learned it trough cli. We were discouraged to use it's gui version because it was bad, Atleast at the time. And talking from experience, using docker for network applications like adguardhome and unbound are a hell to setup, maintain and configure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phein4242 · 2023-11-19 13:42 Can you explain what you mean with lightweight? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 13:44 You two should get a room... Damn 👀 get the frustrations out ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rolmos · 2023-11-19 13:45 Stop feeding the troll. You are clearly more levelheaded and stable than they are Let it go and enjoy your day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 13:48 We used to use that at work, but there were a few reasons why we stopped using it, Idk why anymore, didn't know it was lightweight tho, yet it's very secure right? But I'm going to look into it, thanks for the suggestion! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 13:52 Well it's easy, comparing to a full bloated install of Ubuntu where ur cpu keeps Avaraging around 5% and 1.5gb of memory doing jack sh*t, or to say 'idling', doing nothing but run itself... There are os's out there like turnkey Linux that, when doing nothing run at 0% cpu usage, and 10mb of memory... So to say, turnkey Linux is... Lightweight. Ubuntu's install ISO is over 4gb, turnkey's is less then 200mb. So ofcourse everything runs faster on turnkey... I'm looking for similar Linux flavours like turnkey Linux. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 14:20 That's your personal experience which stems from the lack there of. Container are very easy to manage and to understand if you are already proficient in working with Linux and only in CLI. If not, then yes, anything new is very difficult to setup. How about you start slow by learning how to use Linux in CLI and then improve from there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Senkyou · 2023-11-19 14:33 Less intensive would be docker. Containers provide the level of abstraction you're looking for without being overly complicated. I learned docker by setting up a handful of Minecraft servers, declaring volumes to ensure that data persisted (though I did fuck that up once), and watched the behavior. You can access container data all the same and store data on the host file structure or in docker volumes, which are somewhat more abstract but reliable. I would honestly take the chance to try out containers via docker or podman and just learn it. Having learned it (and previously only used VMs or bare metal), I would never switch back and am in the process of convincing an IT director relative of mine to dockerize some of their environment, it's that good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkyG1969 · 2023-11-19 14:33 It is secure as in you may need to add dependencies in. Ps A spelling mistake Photon OS - https://vmware.github.io/photon/assets/files/html/3.0/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Senkyou · 2023-11-19 14:35 I do a lot of my docker on Debian, some on Ubuntu. Debian is perfect for it. Something like Fedora (or a relative of it) will be awesome too since Podman will be great with it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Senkyou · 2023-11-19 14:38 To add onto that, I had a hard time with docker until I actually committed and tried it out. Now, nearly all of my homelab services are run through docker. I sometimes don't consider something if it isn't a container because I don't have VM resources at my home right now ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 14:46 Don't get me wrong here, I litterly studies system and network management and do then also have a job in the IT, I'm far from unexperienced when it comes to computers, even with docker, I know my way around docker, but for me it's just a hatefull experience, and in my opinion, or my findings, I do love using vm's more. Even tho they might be more resource intensive I find them easier to manage and use, surely in my use cases. If its for deploying, and never touching it again, I understood, docker is the way. But if it comes to tinkering, adjusting, and managing whatever is going on... U can't deny it beeing easyer on vm's. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- budius333 · 2023-11-19 14:47 It seems to me, by looking at several of OPs comment that you're running the full desktop OS, with Gnome on it, and honestly that's the reason you get the idle CPU and 1.5GB of RAM usage. Do you want light weight the real answer is, use the server version of it without the UI. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 14:50 Yeh from the Ubuntu's it's indeed with gui, and desktop version, but I have debian's running to, but compared to turnkey... Debian seems heavy against what I need. So that's the question, since I have a issue with turnkey not running a specific program I am in search of a alternative of a stripped down like Linux, as turnkey, and hoped to find alternatives here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mosaic_hops · 2023-11-19 14:52 Just run Ubuntu server. You don’t want something so stripped down it lacks the basics… that’s more for embedded applications or in some cases containers. Ubuntu runs fine with 512MB of RAM on a 386 from the 1980’s… that’s the magic of Linux. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Darkextratoasty · 2023-11-19 15:07 I definitely can deny it, adjusting stuff in docker can be as easy as editing a line in a docker-compose file, whereas in a VM I'll most likely have to shutdown the VM, adjust stuff on the hypervisor, then I might have to adjust stuff from within the VM as well. I'd recommend checking out portainer, it's a GUI for creating and managing docker containers that might change your opinion on them. I'd also suggest learning docker compose, it is, IMO, infinitely better than using the docker run command with a bunch of flags. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cryptoguy255 · 2023-11-19 15:58 To make the problem even worse OP is using a full GUI desktop version in every VM on old laptop with only 2 CPUs. Hammering nails with a screwdriver is even far more efficient as what OP is trying to do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrkesu · 2023-11-19 16:00 For the apps you are listing I would suggest simply spending an afternoon learning docker. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 16:09 I know docker... As mentioned too many times below, I don't want docker... Or I could do the same thing and just set everything on my home assistant.... That's not what I'm open for. But thanks for the suggestion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Scaredy14 · 2023-11-19 16:11 UnRaid may be exactly what you are looking for. It's similar to proxmox, but UnRaid has a plugin called "Community Applications" where people make pre-configured Docker containers that most of the time only need the user to define a path for saving files (though some do need more configuration). UnRaid boots from a USB to RAM. So it's hard to get lighter weight than that! You don't even "install" it, per se. You can pop it into a computer with an already installed OS, boot via USB, and then can boot the native OS as a VM in UnRaid, if you want. Then shut down, remove the USB, and reboot to the original OS as if UnRaid never existed. Now there's caveats and pitfalls if you are not careful. Don't go formatting drives if you do it that way or making major changes as it could affect the native OS install if you're not careful. Im just letting you know it's possible. Using the built-in Docker in UnRaid, those services get dynamic access to the computer's resources and have minimal overhead when idle. VMs, I believe, have more overhead. So this may allow you even more capability on an old laptop. I've never used Docker before, but I now run Home Assistant, Plex, Immich photo backup, minecraft server, Trilium Notes, Blender, Cura Slicer, and a couple others all as Docker containers. All I did was click install, add path to folders, and then they were up and running! One of my favorite things about how UnRaid works with Docker is that all your Docker containers are set up to be accessible on your network, by default, and can be viewed on any web browser with access to your network. When I want to show off a little, I pull up things like Blender on my smart tv. It's a terrible user experience trying to use a remote as a mouse, but I'm able to "use" Blender on my TV it I so feel! But mainly, I like to sit outside on nice days and have access to my computer from any device on my network. I'm working on making things accessible over vpn for me and a few services by reverse proxy for friends. But I'm still learning. Search UnRaid's Community Applications page for services you run and see how many are already available. https://unraid.net/community/apps There's also youtube videos on making your own programs available in UnRaid. You can also add personal Docker containers through Docker Compose. Plus, UnRaid makes settings up VMs very easy. So, if you just want to have a program in a VM for ease of use, you can do that too! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 16:14 What software needs constant tinkering or changes? Containers are the easiest and best way to run applications, that's a simple fact. If its not for you that's okay. There are still people who install applications on bare metal servers because it's easier for them. What would you tell them from your VM standpoint? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 16:15 You can package any Linux capable app into a container yourself. docker build is your friend. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Senkyou · 2023-11-19 16:16 Yeah it's on my list to figure out. I have some scripts I want to dockerize too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cr1tic · 2023-11-19 16:36 A good lightweight distro is Arch since you can customize it to exactly what you need. If you go that way and have trouble with installation, ArchFi can help a little. But as others have said, what you actually want is docker. All of your concerns with it stem from your lack of experience using it. When your only tool is a hammer, it's easy to see every problem as a nail. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ch0ppasuey · 2023-11-19 16:38 AntiX, Zorin Lite, or Linux Mint Debian Edition are all pretty lightweight distros and beginner friendly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 16:39 You can check [my repo](https://github.com/11notes?tab=repositories) on github for over 50 container images. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Senkyou · 2023-11-19 16:40 I appreciate it. I'll look it over today! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 17:21 You don't need to start attacking me... I didn't say docker isn't a valid option, it's just not an option for ME... Let that be that... Regards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- daYMAN007 · 2023-11-19 17:27 there are also linux containers, which you can network the same as any qemu vm. Just with the upside of using less resources (and not beeing able to run a virtualiatization inside ofthe container) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 18:28 I'm not attacking you but I asked you what you would tell someone that doesn't use VM's because they can't wrap their heada around it and only install everything bare metal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Entire_Worldliness24 · 2023-11-19 18:37 To use docker, or cheaper devices. There are people out there that make racks full of pi's with each pi running something new. Only running baremetal it not choosing virtualization. I do use virtualization, and I use one of the two? Options outt here... And both still exist for a reason. Not because one is worse then the other, they each have their own community and users, just like Linux, each flavour has its own people for a reason... I... Myself, am not a docker person. That's why I asked for a Linux option in my post that's lightweight I can use as vm... I chose to use vm's. I did not ask for alternative options towards virtualization, hosting etc... I asked for Linux distro's that are lightweight. And hey, what about the person that wants to keep installing baremetal... Its his choice... I started with a windows and running 4 virtualbox vm's on there... It did work just fine, perfect even... If it weren't for windows updates, and their lack of security, I would've kept going that way 😊 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ElevenNotes · 2023-11-19 18:58 What if that person needs 10xHP G10 to tun their 10 apps using 1.5kW in the process. What would you tell them about VM's? Use Alpine as your VM. Period. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JoeB- · 2023-11-19 21:09 20 GB certainly is enough RAM for running a few Proxmox VMs. I thought the laptop have be something like 4 GB. If the laptop slows sometimes, the issue may not be the Linux distribution. Random thoughts... 1. Check power settings in BIOS on the laptop and in the base OS. Could it be entering into a low-power state when idle? 2. I had problems with Debian LXCs being glacier slow. Enabling "**Nesting**" in ***Web UI*** *>* ***Container-ID*** *>* ***Options*** *>* ***Features*** fixed the problem. 3. Set VM Processor Type to "**host**" in ***Web UI*** \> ***VM-ID*** \> ***Hardware*** \> ***Processors.*** 4. Install **qemu-guest-agent** if not already installed. 5. What is the issue with Unbound? Is it not working in a vanilla Debian VM? Is it not available from TurnKey Linux? I am unclear. Also, if your interest in Unbound is for a private DNS server, then both [Pi-hole](https://pi-hole.net/) and [AdGuard Home](https://adguard.com/en/adguard-home/overview.html) can provide local DNS (albeit using dnsmasq). Either of these should be sufficient for home DNS servers, along with providing ad and tracker blocking. It also is possible to install [Unbound](https://docs.pi- hole.net/guides/dns/unbound/) on Pi-hole. I ran Pi-hole in a Proxmox LXC container for several years before migrating it to Docker on my NAS. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- audero · 2023-11-20 00:18 I second Arch. It’s not trivial to install but once you’re up and running it’s no harder than Debian. You just have to learn pacman instead of apt. Anything it doesn’t have in the repos you can build from the AUR. The Wiki is amazing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snoo_4836 · 2023-11-20 00:34 Alpine for sure. It’s lightweight and easy to maintain.