RANT: play around with the cloud and find out reddit / selfhosted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-09 12:40 TL;DR: An android application deleted the local copy of my data after I unsubscribed from the cloud service and was banned from discord for doing uncomfortable questions that other users never considered instead of helping me fix the issue. First of all, let me introduce myself, I've been a self-hosted for 5 or more years. I try to set up everything myself and to build my own ecosystem as many others in this community. Except for an app that I was never able to host myself. An android handwritten app to take notes. The app I use is notewise.dev, an android good-looking app that offered a cloud subscription to sync my notes. Even though It was against my practices and beliefs I subscribed to keep my two devices synchronized. But the cancellation time has come and I didn't read their knowledge-base to know that my data will be deleted from the device. They even sent me an email telling me that my cloud data will be deleted in 7 days, and of course, didn't mention that the data will be gone from the device too. So here comes the outrageous part, and please bear with me and don't drill me on how I should have known better. Think that I let my guard down and almost lost years of work. I went to their discord to ask for help to the developers with the following arguments and got banned because more users were joining in the discussion. 1. Why on earth would an app delete the local copy after I unsubscribe? According to them, It's to help them keep track of whom has a valid plan. They didn't were able to code It in any other way. This is what to expect with programmers playing wannabe cloud providers. 2. Then They started saying that It's a bug because It shouldn't have been deleted from my device until 7 days before the cancellation. So... It's only half a bug? 3. I would love to provide screenshots of their poor crisis management but was ejected from their discord. According to them, for a cloud provider, It's totally right to delete the data from your device If you stop paying (imagine dropbox doing that). I manage cancellations of contracts on a daily basis at work, and going to client devices to unconfigure things or delete data would be criminally liable. So I don't understand how coding an app that way It's totally right for these people. **The situation right now:** given that I was in the 7-day timeframe to avoid data deletion (from cloud) I reactivated my account. I disconnected It from the internet and I'm backing up my data to PDF's. I plan on doing a GDPR request to ask for my data and to check If they are compliant. Although I was angry and frustrated, I tried to ask for help, but having a knowledgeable position and asking for industry standards was too much for them. So I was constantly told to not assume bad intentions from the developers. Bad intentions or not, **writing a bug in Freshdesk doesn't make it a feature**. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-09 12:56 Here Is a WBM capture of some of their best guarantees. > For Notewise Cloud users, all your data is safely stored both on Cloud and on your local device, therefore there is no risk of data loss! "Both on cloud and on your local device" [Link](https://web.archive.or g/web/20231109124541/https://notewise.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/ articles/150000151144-will-i-lose-my-data-if-i-do-not-upgrade-to- notewise-cloud-) >Once your local notes are successfully uploaded onto Notewise Cloud, they will be longer accessible when you're signed out as it will be completely moved into Notewise Cloud. An unfortunate typo. Should I have read all the helpdesk documentation after purchasing? [Link](https://web.archive.org/web/20231109125010/ht tps://notewise.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/150000151162- what-happens-when-i-upgrade-to-notewise-cloud-if-i-m-already-on- unlimited-) >Once your Notewise Cloud subscription expires, you'll lose access to your existing notes inside Notewise Cloud. No mention to the local data. [Link](https://web.archive.org/web/20231 109125351/https://notewise.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/15 0000151167-what-happens-when-my-notewise-cloud-subscription-expires-) ​ A full WBM capture: [Link](https://web.archive.org/web/20231109125515/ https://notewise.freshdesk.com/support/home) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LastTreestar · 2023-11-09 13:15 Yet another. Thanks. Use trilium. https://github.com/zadam/trilium ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hannsr · 2023-11-09 17:19 Wait, so they deleted the data from your device even *before* your subscription was over? They couldn't just disable your access to their cloud once the subscription expired? I'm far from being even a novice dev, but I know you could simply lock a user out of your service lol. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- the9engines · 2023-11-09 17:26 The user mentioned the requirement being handwritten notes, this is just normal text based notes unfortunately. Maybe you have something for handwritten? I would love to self host something like that as well! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LastTreestar · 2023-11-09 18:43 There is a canvas note. Dig a little deeper, and I think you'll LOVE it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- the9engines · 2023-11-09 20:12 Interesting, will check it out, thanks! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-09 20:15 Yep, according to their logic my data was uploaded to their cloud so... And yes, the notes were downloaded to my devices and synced. My device wasn't polling from their cloud to access the notes. They were deleted FROM the device because I lost my cloud privileges. Mob-like businesses and subscriptions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-09 20:17 For my text notes I'm really happy with Obsidian and markdown. I already have the infrastructure to sync them so it's a no-brainer to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LastTreestar · 2023-11-09 20:20 There's more to it than text. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-09 20:22 I would even be happy with an open format or something that other apps could use. But I think that's too much to ask for. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DzikiDziq · 2023-11-09 22:42 This rant is 100% correct. We do all (backups, raid expanses, clouds and sync) just to keep our data safe. If a software would remove my own data, from my own device and it would not be some “alpha” app not prepared to be productive, I would be more than pissed. And banning for fair questions is getting more common (I’m looking at you PhotoPrism developers), to the level that fair developers should be praised for their help and work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-09 22:53 I miss the days when paying for some service meant having some level of support. I understand that a discord can be faster, or a forum easier to be self managed by users. I've paid less than a dolar for some services ang got one or two day long tickets. Nowadays it seems uncommon. But at least as soon as a business representative joined the conversation it was to HELP. I was a user with a problem, not there to discuss how logical it is to erase my data. The goal of the customer support used to be helping, using some level of backed knowledge, or internal tools... Not saying it is what it is as a mantra. Today I had to ask for time to backup my data because I didn't trust the representatives! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sure-Temperature · 2023-11-09 23:19 What happened with PhotoPrism? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MargretTatchersParty · 2023-11-10 02:37 I usually use [https://joplinapp.org/](https://joplinapp.org/) with nextcloud. I enjoy it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No_Dragonfruit_5882 · 2023-11-10 13:13 Publish their Name lol. In such cases i dont see it as giving companys a bad time, but protecting your fellow selfhosters / Users ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmclabber · 2023-11-10 13:19 It looks like at one time they offered both on-device and on-cloud storage. It also looks like they went to "cloud-only" storage at some point, thus the "upgrade" path that was mentioned in your WBM link. Companies evolve and change as do their products. It looks like they started offering a lot more "collaboration" tools and likely found it easiest to manage a single version of the document in the cloud versus syncing it to everyones device (also cheaper). Based on the tone here, I imagine you went into their discord a bit "hot" and when you heard stuff you didn't like it escalated, so it's not surprising you got yeeted. This isn't "crisis management" for them, this is dealing with an upset former customer. >According to them, for a cloud provider, It's totally right to delete the data from your device If you stop paying (imagine dropbox doing that). Dropbox is forgiving, other cloud providers aren't. You stop paying, you are now a cyber squatter taking up disk and not paying for it. You *will* lose your data, it's just a matter of time. Some are on the next day of your subscription ending, others have some buffer. There should be NO expectation your data will persist after you stop paying them and your plan has run it's course. Assuming your data will still be there after you stop paying is on you, not the provider. >I manage cancellations of contracts on a daily basis at work, and going to client devices to unconfigure things or delete data would be criminally liable. Not necessarily. Just because you paid for a service at one point in time, doesn't mean you get to continue using that service forever. If you "cancel contracts" daily at work, then you would know this, or maybe the contracts you are working with are very narrow in scope. It's normal for data to be dumped after you stop paying. Some providers will hold on to that data for a period in case you change your mind and make it easier to come back, but there is no expectation for stuff to continue working on SaaS after you stop making payments. Again, that's on you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-11 00:44 First of all, being the software developers I think that they are **completely in control of what their app does and what not**. My criticism comes when the developers choose the less consumer friendly way of doing things. ​ >Companies evolve and change as do their products. And It's their responsibility to communicate with their already signed-in customers in a clear way to upgrade or exit the product. The product can change but my requirements don't, so I expect a level of minimum functionality or I'm stepping out. Customers should always have the possibility to leave with the less amount of harm if the product changes in a way that doesn't fulfills previous functions. ​ >Based on the tone here, I imagine you went into their discord a bit "hot" and when you heard stuff you didn't like it escalated, so it's not surprising you got yeeted. This isn't "crisis management" for them, this is dealing with an upset former customer. Understand my tone more as disbelief rather than anger. I would love to audit my own conversation to improve my communication skills. I don't have access to that conversation anymore. **And I'm sure the other users questioning about their data continuity doesn't have access to my legitimate questions neither**. Now let's talk about how you don't think loosing a users data is not a crisis. If a system I developed lost years of work of someone I would be, worried at least. Maybe my app was not easy to understand, or I didn't announced the breaking changes with a popup (thing they do with the new features) and many more things I would be considering. So managing a so serious thing for a user maybe not a crisis, but a big opportunity to step in as a decent company. ​ I think you missed a few parts quoting my text, let me explain you a bit deeper the meaning of your quotes. ​ >According to them, for a cloud provider, It's totally right to delete the data from your device If you stop paying (imagine dropbox doing that). Good quote but completely missed the most important part of **"your device"**. Meaning that when our contract was over (even though I have paid separately for the software) instead of deactivating my cloud- access the app, and by extension the developers, decided to delete the local copy. You have a really good speech about being a "cyber squatter " but please would love to know **how having content stored on my device could be cyber squatting**. I think that It's clear on my posture that taking down cancelled services It's expected. But going the step further of locking local content (or designing and coding a system to do that) It's totally bad practice. ​ > If you "cancel contracts" daily at work, then you would know this, or maybe the contracts you are working with are very narrow in scope. I don't know how you missed so much the focus of the conversation to not understand that my problem is not with loosing my cloud privileges. Let me reiterate one more time with that. The process of a contract cancellations implies not giving more service to something. That means you are not spending more resources in something, being resources things like equipment leases, time, internet service and many more. But that doesn't give you the right to develop or design things in a way that what you already delivered stops working on cancellation when there's no technical reason. * If you have an enterprise firewall and stop paying an internet connection doesn't have any sense for the ISP to go and disable your DHCP server. (Assuming the firewall is yours but you outsourced the administration). * Or you had an SMP and they design your AD infrastructure to stop working on cancellation. ​ >You think s3, b2, and other web storage providers are just going to keep your data forever for free once you stop paying for it? Nope. That \*\*\*\* will be GONE. Go pay for an AWS or droplet instance, then stop paying for it and see what happens. lol No, I don't think that, I neither said that but thank you for your knowledgeable insight. Thank you for your in deep response, I like seeing opinions from other parties. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-11 00:52 The app is called "**NOTEWISE**" from, the [notewise.dev](https://notewise.dev) team. Good looking, but nothing more. Their main drawbacks are: \- Can't export multiple files at once. \- Can't backup to GDrive or other 3rd party solutions. Right before using notewise I used noteshelf, the User Interface It's a bit chunckier and the features are less "smart" and automatic. **But at least you can copy your data, even to WebDAV.** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No_Dragonfruit_5882 · 2023-11-11 01:32 Thanks man ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmclabber · 2023-11-11 02:20 > First of all, being the software developers I think that they are completely in control of what their app does and what not. My criticism comes when the developers choose the less consumer friendly way of doing things. Cloud storage costs money. You should have no expectation with a SaaS solution your app will continue to function after you stop the subscription. Common sense. >And It's their responsibility to communicate with their already signed-in customers in a clear way to upgrade or exit the product. The product can change but my requirements don't, so I expect a level of minimum functionality or I'm stepping out. Customers should always have the possibility to leave with the less amount of harm if the product changes in a way that doesn't fulfills previous functions. ​The WBM link you provided made it pretty clear that it was changing. You can and did leave. You're mad the app didn't work the way it did before. You didn't lose anything, you haven't been harmed. You don't like the changes on the app, pack it up and leave. Such is life with SaaS solutions. >Understand my tone more as disbelief rather than anger. I would love to audit my own conversation to improve my communication skills. I don't have access to that conversation anymore. And I'm sure the other users questioning about their data continuity doesn't have access to my legitimate questions neither. If it's anything like the way you are coming off now, I can see why you were yeeted. You are coming off very entitled and arrogant, whether it be intentional or not. The website is pretty clear, your data resides on the cloud. As such, when you stop paying, you should expect it to be gone. >Now let's talk about how you don't think loosing a users data is not a crisis. If a system I developed lost years of work of someone I would be, worried at least. Maybe my app was not easy to understand, or I didn't announced the breaking changes with a popup (thing they do with the new features) and many more things I would be considering. One user complaining the app doesn't work when you don't have a subscription is not a crisis. A crisis is a backend loss of a s3 bucket unintentionally losing users documents, or a data breach. A single upset consumer is NOT a crisis, it's a normal business day. Just because it's a big deal to you doesn't mean it's a big deal to me or anyone else. >You have a really good speech about being a "cyber squatter " but please would love to know how having content stored on my device could be cyber squatting. I think that It's clear on my posture that taking down cancelled services It's expected. But going the step further of locking local content (or designing and coding a system to do that) It's totally bad practice. It's not really a speech, more of a comment. No one is stopping you from storing stuff on your device, you just can't do it with that app. It's clearly mentioned on both the website today and the WBM that it is a cloud solution. You are paying for a SaaS cloud based solution. There should be no expectation the app will continue to let you use it locally for free. Everything you have posted stated it is now a cloud solution. You could have packed your bags and left before they made that switch, you didn't. Now you're mad you can't get a local storage version of the app for free. >I don't know how you missed so much the focus of the conversation to not understand that my problem is not with loosing my cloud privileges. Let me reiterate one more time with that. The process of a contract cancellations implies not giving more service to something. That means you are not spending more resources in something, being resources things like equipment leases, time, internet service and many more. Not sure where you are going with this? You paid for a SaaS solution, you opted it, don't expect ANYTHING to work. That's how most SaaS solutions work. >But that doesn't give you the right to develop or design things in a way that what you already delivered stops working on cancellation when there's no technical reason. If I am an app designer, I can design and make any changes I want to the app. Just like you are entitled as a consumer to stop paying me. There are numerous technical and a BIG financial reason to not offer both. You force people to keep docs in the cloud you lock them in to your solution. You may not like it, but that's the state of SaaS. Don't like it? Vote with your money, which you have, only way that will change. >If you have an enterprise firewall and stop paying an internet connection doesn't have any sense for the ISP to go and disable your DHCP server. (Assuming the firewall is yours but you outsourced the administration). Not the same. The ISP and the firewall are two different things. If the ISP owned the firewall, they have the right to take it back, assuming I am renting it. Nowhere near the same thing. >Or you had an SMP and they design your AD infrastructure to stop working on cancellation. Also, not remotely the same thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nandodaria · 2023-11-11 10:52 >Cloud storage costs money. You should have no expectation with a SaaS solution your app will continue to function after you stop the subscription. Common sense. Their app was a separate purchase, the standalone offline version. > You're mad the app didn't work the way it did before. I'm mad I had to renew another month to not lose my local data. >The website is pretty clear, your data resides on the cloud. It's pretty clear about guaranteeing not loosing your data too. >As such, when you stop paying, you should expect it to be gone. > >.... > > You are paying for a SaaS cloud based solution. There should be no expectation the app will continue to let you use it locally for free. Once more time, I've payed for the app as an independent purchase and expect the functionality of the version I've paid for nothing less and nothing more. >don't expect ANYTHING to work Don't expect services to work or to have a minimum level? ​ >Not the same. The ISP and the firewall are two different things. If the ISP owned the firewall, they have the right to take it back, assuming I am renting it. Nowhere near the same thing. Again you are missing parts of the text. > (Assuming the firewall is yours but you outsourced the administration). Clearly you're only reading bits to prove your point. A big waste of time for everyone here at this point. ​ >Also, not remotely the same thing. The diference is the context, messing around with other companies not OK. But designing bad solutions for end costumers is justified. > You force people to keep docs in the cloud you lock them in to your solution The only way to "force" a costumer to stay with your app should be quality, and defending otherwise is weird at least. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Witty-Ad-1069 · 2023-11-11 12:14 You two are writing very lengthy comments and the point of the conversation is getting lost. Allow me to simplify it for you: - The user started using the app, no subscription yet since it has a free plan that doesn't use the cloud. - The user decides to switch to the cloud plan because at the time it stated that it kept a local copy of the files. - At some point the functionality changed, but the user wasn't notified or given the option to opt out. - Since the user wasn't informed we can safely say the files were deleted without the users consent. - After some time the user decides to stop using the paid plan thinking they still will be able to use the files locally, we already stablished they weren't informed of the change so they have no reason to think otherwise. - The user lost access to the files **before** the subscription was over. --- Now I'm sure we can agree on a few points: The developers have the right to change their app. Can't debate that. But they need to notify their users of changes to their service. Since the user wasn't notified of this or given the opportunity to opt out, their **local** data was deleted without permission. There is a bug that prevented the user from accessing their data **before the subscription was over** which is also not ok. I assume they'll fix that. I'll comment under this with more details. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Witty-Ad-1069 · 2023-11-11 12:21 Many countries have **laws that protect consumers** from unfair or deceptive practices. These laws generally **require businesses to provide accurate information about their products** or services and to **notify consumers of any significant changes**, especially if these changes could negatively impact the consumer. Legislation such as the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) in the European Union or the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) in the United States impose obligations on companies handling personal data. These laws typically **require companies to inform users about how their data is used and to get consent for certain data processing activities**. Deleting user data without consent, especially if it's personal data, could be a violation of such laws. When a user agrees to a service's terms and conditions, they are entering into a contract with the service provider. I**f the provider changes the terms** (like removing the ability to keep local copies of files) **without proper notification** or the option to opt-out, this could be seen as a **breach of contract**. Many jurisdictions **require companies to notify users** of significant changes to terms of service, privacy policies, or **functionality**. The method of notification (email, app notification, etc.) and the notice period may vary depending on the law and the nature of the change, not gonna google every single one. If the user loses access to their data due to the service provider's actions, such as a change in functionality **that wasn't communicated**, the **provider** might be **liable for the loss**. The extent of liability would depend on the terms of service, the nature of the data, and the jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions, like the EU under the GDPR, users have the right to data portability. This means they should be able to retrieve their data in a commonly used format. If a service doesn't allow this, especially after a subscription ends, it could be a legal issue but I'm not familiar enough with GDPR to state this confidently. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmclabber · 2023-11-12 03:31 Mentions lengthy comments and missing the point, makes a massively lengthy comment and goes off on a tangent. As far as I’m concerned there was only one bug/problem and that was losing cloud access before his sub ended. Anything else it’s SaaS and there should be no expectation anything will work after you stop paying. It really is that simple. Regardless if it was on device, cloud, or both. You stop paying shit stops working, that’s how saas works. Based on the comment style and this is a new account I’m gonna guess you are OP. Just post from your main account. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmclabber · 2023-11-12 03:36 You gripe about a standalone paid app and then talk about a subscription? What? Call me whatever you want but your anecdotes are beyond flawed. Also, it’s customer, not costumer. It’s losing, not loosing. Then again I’m not the one using a burner account to post and try to bolster my opinion either lol. Cringe.