Is AV1 the ultimate codec? reddit / selfhosted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 15:12 Its open-source, its really efficient and can be direct-played on almost anything, is there any reason to use anything else, are there any downsides? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TechieWasteLan · 2023-11-04 15:26 It's newer so maybe some early adoption issues? Also we're just starting to get hardware that can encode AV1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ultraskelly · 2023-11-04 15:26 It can't be direct played on a lot of smart TVs/tv media players and Plex doesn't support it (except Plex HTPC. Unless my info is out of date) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stetsed · 2023-11-04 15:27 So firstly "can be direct-played on almost anything", is definetley not true, as there is still a lack of AV1 decoding hardware if you look at the general hardware, for example AV1 only came on RTX 4000, RX 6000 series or the newest of Intel/AMD(11th gen+ for CPU's, and I think all Arc GPU's support it.), or even phones which would die without hardware decoders. And not everybody is running the latest and greatest. Secondly getting media to AV1 is expensive as even the hardware that supports decoding doesn't mean it supports encoding, so for a home media library for example if you want to convert your Linux ISO's to AV1 you either gotta get a card that has AV1 encoders, so ARC, RTX 4000 or RX 7000. Or you gotta wait a long as while for the CPU to do it, so that's what might prevent home users from doing it for now. Thirdly yes it is a very interesting up and comer in the Codecs space as it's trying to replace H264 by being Royalty free which is why alot of places don't implement H265 because it requires royaltys. So I definetley see that when the decoding support is more widespread it will become a widely used format and I hope it does as it's a really cool idear and good idea. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 15:27 You don't need to encode it tho, it's direct-play(alteast on jellyfin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 15:28 Jellyfin does(except on iPhones and macs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ultraskelly · 2023-11-04 15:31 Still a very limited amount of devices. The Nvidia Shield doesn't even support it. If you were a Shield/Plex combo user like I'm sure a lot of people are you'd have to buy a (potentially inferior) media device like the 4k Firestick and switch to Jellyfin. I tried to do this and the experience was not nearly as seemless as the Shield Plex combo, it's just not there yet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 15:34 I'm not gonna pretend like it's perfect for everyone, but it suits me, and maybe someday shield/jellyfin will be good enough ---------------------------------------------------------------------- illhaveubent · 2023-11-04 15:41 > it's direct-play(alteast on jellyfin) that entirely depends on client hardware. only the latest generation of devices will have support, and even that is not true across the board. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GoingOffRoading · 2023-11-04 15:52 Plex supports AV1 and HW encoding of AV1 now : ) This was a relatively recent change ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NurEineSockenpuppe · 2023-11-04 15:54 People use the term „directplay“ here. What do you mean by that. What would be indirect play? Lol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Teknikal_Domain · 2023-11-04 15:59 Speed. Speed. **Speed.** I can't even move my collection to AV1 because it transcodes at, get this, 0 fps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 16:00 Directplay = no transcoding needed for playback ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ultraskelly · 2023-11-04 16:01 Great news! Excited to fire up tdarr when I start running out of space then ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 16:01 It seems like you don't have a hardware AV1 encoder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EvilEyeV · 2023-11-04 16:01 The video stream gets transcoded before being sent to the client. So if you have h265 video as a source and the client device doesn't support it, it will get transcoded into h264 or another codec the client can support. A direct stream just sends the video to the client that can natively support the format. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- XxNerdAtHeartxX · 2023-11-04 16:02 Direct Play means the server isn't transcoding the file on the fly for the client device to be able to read. Not ever device can play specific codecs (understand specific languages), so it can request a different version from the server. If the server doesn't have a version that the client device understands, it can translate it in real time, which means lower quality than a source file, and more power usage for the server owner. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Teknikal_Domain · 2023-11-04 16:02 Correct. And thus, there is a downside. Without hardware support (which isn't universal, and not all machines can take GPUs with AV1 enc/dec), you're going to spend an inordinate amount of time transcoding. HEVC is *slow* on the CPU, but it can be done. AV1 is a fool's errand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 16:04 Imagine in a few years. Almost everything supports AV1. Would it have any downsides? No, it's just not adopted yet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Teknikal_Domain · 2023-11-04 16:08 But in the current year, you asked are there any downsides. Yes. There are downsides. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cakee_ru · 2023-11-04 16:19 anything can happen in a few years. better codec could arise (like compatible with 264, so you can use old HW decoder with it), or AV1 just not getting widespread. I will not use AV1 unless all my and my friends low end mobile devices support it. Which definitely won't happen soon. right now you sound like you're very excited for AV1, which is a great feeling, but please don't get disappointed by getting hopes too high. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- techma2019 · 2023-11-04 16:21 Look up when HEVC came out. And see how long it’s been taking for adoption. Now look up AV1. It is open source, but it will still take probably another 3-4 years to be everywhere. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheFlyingBaboon1 · 2023-11-04 16:27 Love the way you're still using Linux ISO's in this second paragraph hahahaha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 16:30 HEVC has huge licensing costs(like a dollar per device), ofc it will not get adopted. You need 3 licenses to use it and then a dollar for every device ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 16:32 I got my hopes way too high for h265, won't make the mistake again ---------------------------------------------------------------------- patmorgan235 · 2023-11-04 16:37 AV1 looks really promising. The open source nature makes widespread adoption more likely but it's not certain by any means. If you're on new hardware it's probably great, but there's lots of stuff that doesn't support it still.(or support is iffy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- james2432 · 2023-11-04 16:38 it is open source but it's no free, there is still licensing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- techma2019 · 2023-11-04 16:42 Fantastic. Only the new iPhone 15 Pro and Max support hardware decode of AV1. Those were just released and are the top tier price devices, so the base model still won’t have AV1 support. No less than 3 more years. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pigers1986 · 2023-11-04 16:42 AV1 is not widely supported PERIOD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RoseBailey · 2023-11-04 16:45 AV1 is pretty shit at grainy content. A good example of what sort of content to avoid with AV1: MASH. I just can't get an encode of an episode to not look terrible, especially during the intro sequence, which is the grainiest part. AV1 by default tries to remove the grain and then digitally add it back in. This just plain looks awful, and forcing AV1 to preserve grain still harms the visual quality while losing any size benefit you might have gotten from AV1. Admittedly, grainy content is getting pretty scarce these days, so there is plenty of content that AV1 is very good with. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- jkirkcaldy · 2023-11-04 16:55 Every time someone gets excited for AV1 I say the same thing. Realistically, it’s not going to overtake h264 for a number of years. Probably a decade at least. It’s the client devices that will hold it back. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- plasticbomb1986 · 2023-11-04 17:02 Chromecast with Google TV (HD) supports it (hardware devode). My phone can play it from cpu power, but not ideal (Xiaomi Poco F3, about 3 years old low mid range phone). My laptop can play it, although i think thats mostly CPU power (AMD Ryzen 5 3500U). My main rig can play it from cpu (Ryzen 3800XT, my gpu (VEGA64) is just too old at this point), and currently transcoding my library from everything to AV1&Opus. On the 3800XT per movie a transcode can take from 5-6 hour to up to 25 hour, highly depending on film grain/noise. (It still pisses me off, but Lord of War around at 30 minutes mark have terrible film grain and artifacting going on as (Bridget Moynahan looks at the sea while the camera watch her from behind, her hair around her head makes the grain go crazy). And it takes 25 hours with that on preset 5 crf 25. ) 500 done, 8500 more to go... It definitely a good sign that you can set av1 preference in YouTube for example, it will help adoption spread faster. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- raul_dias · 2023-11-04 17:03 you know, I transcode my media to x265 cause I still get lots of H264 encodes from private trackers. I wondered why and recently I was presented with the concept of a done file. when I convert from 264 to 265 the file cannot be converted back or into another codec without considerable loss. From what I've tested it is not enough for me to stop using x265, the size advantage is worth it. But I do think that for some people thats why they keep using h264. if AV1 shows the same behavior I believe it will never completely replace h264. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stetsed · 2023-11-04 17:04 It's not about if it can play it, it's about power usage when playing it. If you cpu decode on your phone/laptop it will absolutley die in terms of battery very quickly. So unless your gonna be stuck to the wall the entire time it's still very annoying and as I noted in my comments will prevent wide spread adoption until even entry level devices have had AV1 decoders for a few years. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- plasticbomb1986 · 2023-11-04 17:08 My bad, actually forgot about battery consumption... Its very rare i watch anything on the go, or far from a power source, and even if i do something like that, i usually end up on reddit or phoronix reading about something... Not watching. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nmkd · 2023-11-04 17:12 Yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stetsed · 2023-11-04 17:16 For my Linux ISO's I will grab whatever is available depending on the requirments, but generally I go for REMUX ISO's, aka the data is directly from the disk. I would rather have a REMUX 1080p, than a Bluray 2160p(Bluray means it's been alterted in some way which usually means transcoded). However due to x265 being part of the UHD bluray spec basically all the 2160p Linux ISO's I get are x265, and for stuff that isn't in 2160p I will try to get REMUX 1080p if I care about quality, or WEB-DL/WebRip if it's for a series or something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nyanmisaka · 2023-11-04 17:29 Have you figured out the difference between decoding AV1 and encoding to AV1? These are two different things. As far as I know Plex doesn't even support encoding to HEVC/H.265, let alone encoding to AV1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nyanmisaka · 2023-11-04 17:33 No, since only the latest hardware supports hardware encoding it. HEVC/H.265 is already widely supported. Btw Jellyfin supports decoding and encoding to AV1. Encoding to AV1 requires JF 10.9. We want to give early adopters of this patent-free codec a chance to try it out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- readit-on-reddit · 2023-11-04 17:34 Does HW encoding imply HW transcoding? That is, will I be able to HW transcode video on the fly from AV1 if I have a compatible GPU? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 17:35 How is H265 widely supported? Even browsers like Chrome or Firefox don't support HEVC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nyanmisaka · 2023-11-04 17:37 Chrome has supported HEVC/H.265 since version 105. The latest stable version is 119. Firefox just refuses to support HEVC, that's their own problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phynness · 2023-11-04 17:49 What? Your Linux ISOs *aren't* h264? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-04 18:05 It's one further step in the endless advancements of video comoression, preceeded by the sorts of mjpeg, moeg2, h264 etc. There were a lot of codecs before and there will be lots after. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- returnofblank · 2023-11-04 18:12 It's a bit intensive to decode, but AV1 is the GOAT in my personal opinion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- raul_dias · 2023-11-04 18:24 Yeah, I rather have the storage really. I don't mind losing some quality. I try to find good muxes tho. sometimes I'll get som 2160p that looks like 720p. It happens, I'll just delete, note out the uploader, and keep digging. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NameIsKallie · 2023-11-04 18:33 They mean encoding the videos to begin with. Videos are usually released in hevc or x264 formats. In order to get videos in av1, they need to either be encoded as av1 originally, or transcoded from another format. Since most hardware doesn't have hardware accelerated av1 encoding, it takes a good amount of power and time to encode in av1 through software (though the software encoders are getting better). This is one of the barriers to av1 adoption for many users. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nassiel · 2023-11-04 18:38 Everything need to be encoded/decoded. Direct play means that you don't need to transcode to other format/ratio/mbits during stream because destination can understand and decode the data format so during reproduction you save cpu/gpu time. But many other codecs can do that, the question is, your tablet can decode av1? Your TV? Your phone? Your WiFi can support that bandwidth? If not, you cannot use direct play. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Volhn · 2023-11-04 18:42 Same as all other comments... more hardware decoders out there, but not ubiquitous enough yet. Also hardware encoders are even more behind. It'll take a few years. Case in point... the new M3 chips from Apple don't include AV1 HW encode. Maybe next gen. I think the best support is intel for low power HW encode/decode. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nixugay · 2023-11-04 18:46 Aren’t hardware encoders way more efficient but a bit lower quality ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- northern_lights2 · 2023-11-04 19:10 I'm curious how much more efficient hw encoding / decoding is as compared to using some GPU based software for encoding / decoding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- leaflock7 · 2023-11-04 19:11 you probably missed the memo where 99% of TVs and other devices do not have a hardware transcoder for AV1. Once it becomes more widespread then yes, right now it is a no go ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Legitimate_Farm_3095 · 2023-11-04 19:15 wrong sub ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wixely · 2023-11-04 19:16 This post reminds me of a long-ago-me who thought that ogg was the hottest shit and wanted to encode his whole library to ogg. "iRivers even play them natively" I said! Just hold off on it for a couple of years is my best recommendation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- edparadox · 2023-11-04 19:22 Yes, but as usually, this is actually two sides: - the adoption rests on **decoding** hardware adoption. - hardware encoding, one more time, is tailored for **real-time** encoding, and should not be used for "archival" processes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantastic-Schedule92 · 2023-11-04 19:26 lmfao ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BareMetalSkirt · 2023-11-04 19:26 When you get to that point, definitely run a thorough sample encode off various kinds of Linux distros and compare. Hardware encoders are mainly meant for real-time applications (like streaming, video chat, recording off a camera) and don't focus on quality. E.g. with H265 and identical encoding parameters, you'd get two files that are roughly the same size yet the hardware-encoded one will be significantly worse looking, especially where low frequency detail shows (e.g. dark scenes... you'll see a lot of noise and blocks). I made the mistake of going all-in and chewed through about a fifth of my Slackware collection before I noticed that the new files look like RealPlayer memes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stetsed · 2023-11-04 19:31 Hey, you are 100% right. It depends what I am handling but for my High Quality Arch ISO's I would definetley do it over the CPU, don't want them ending up as Manjaro. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SamStarnes · 2023-11-04 19:40 Starting with... RTX 4050 https://developer.nvidia.com/video-encode-and-decode-gpu-support- matrix-new Quite a price requirement there to "direct play" AV1 content. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- umataro · 2023-11-04 19:43 HW AV1 decoding will be a requirement for all phones that ship with android 14. That should help with adoption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pigers1986 · 2023-11-04 19:48 Looking at current android version (around the world) - take at least 3-4 years to adopt :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mlcarson · 2023-11-04 19:49 The Nvidia Shield has probably the most recommended client hardware for a long time and doesn't support AV1 hardware decoding. Apple TV is probably the next recommended client and I don't believe it supports AV1 hardware decoding either. I believe both can do it via software decoding but you need new HW that's good enough to replace existing HW for it to become the best codec. The latest Chinese HW that supports Android TV appears to support AV1. I'd say we're a year away from a mainstream consumer product to take over with AV1 HW decoding support. Heck, not even my Ryzen 5600/5700G CPU's do native AV1 decoding. I think the only piece of PC HW that I have that does is my Radeon 6900XT video card. I do have a NanoPi R6S that does though which might make a good Nvidia Shield replacement in time. Bottomline is that there needs to be more client HW that can do AV1 decode. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2023-11-04 19:51 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- d-cent · 2023-11-04 20:13 It certainly seems like it. The biggest hurdle is enough hardware manufacturers wanting their devices to encode/decode that format. That's a lot easier said then done though. There's no company behind it pushing the hardware companies to do it for financial gains because it's own source. There will probably be push back by companies like Dolby who want there licensed products to be used and paid for. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a digital product that was superior getting passed over here in America atleast. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- edparadox · 2023-11-04 20:16 > Its open-source, Yes. > its really efficient It depends. > and can be direct-played on almost anything, Speak again? Hardware acceleration for AV1 decoding is still relatively marginal, and this is only the first step ; so I guess you're taking about CPU decoding? Yes, as in, like any other codec. > is there any reason to use anything else, are there any downsides? 1) Without hardware acceleration, CPU load. 2) Considering that, for a start every encoding/decoding is an equation where you can get two, at best, among small size, small CPU load, high fidelity. Not only that but new codecs are now getting diminishing returns, and it's always a question of the purpose of your encode. You do not value the same aspect when encoding for e.g. a Blu- ray disc or e.g. streaming video content to wireless mobile devices. 3) Following up from point #2, there are still quality concerns like any new codec, but at some point, it **will** get true, for the reasons talked about above. Nowadays, more often than not, encoding equals *compression*, and this is what *newer* codecs are about, not formats. **There are reasons why good H.264 encodes beats H.265. Not only that, but you can see that some codecs had different purposes. E.g. if you pass `veryslow` to `x264`, it will give you the smallest size at the selected quality level, while passing the same parameter to `x265`, it will give you more details for a significant size overhead. More AV1-oriented is e.g. the fact that noise and noise-like patterns will affect the results of encoding and decoding, so I hope people won't abuse its compressing capabilities, aiming for more compression and less fidelity like it is the case now. And this is just one aspect of it. 4) Do not forget that, for each codec, there is an evolution. AV1 today might not be the same tomorrow, be it in adoption, and its profiles/levels (which dictate what features are supported for each), and that adoption is costly. Given the time e.g. H.265 took to be massively adopted and the current situation, as much as I'd like to see AV1 become mainstream overnight, this is definitely a discussion for another time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EpicDaNoob · 2023-11-04 20:30 > I assume you mean "decode" and not "decode" I assume you mean "encode" and not "encode" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gmes78 · 2023-11-04 20:34 RTX 3000 series can decode AV1. It's encoding that's exclusive to the 4000 series. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Teknikal_Domain · 2023-11-04 20:40 Depends on which. An Nvidia GPU with an AV1 capable NVENC will probably do as good a job as anything else on the same settings. Bargain bin hardware, bargain bin quality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- s13ecre13t · 2023-11-04 20:42 Minor nitpick > for example AV1 only came on RTX 4000 AV1 decoding came on RTX 3000 series. https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/rtx-30-series-av1-decoding/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stetsed · 2023-11-04 20:43 Yep you are right, seems like I was typing to fast. I ment encoding is only available on RTX 4000, decoding is indeed available on 3000. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gootecks · 2023-11-04 20:43 maybe it will be someday, but today is not that day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- s13ecre13t · 2023-11-04 20:46 There are two "efficiencies" - quality per bitrate - so more efficient encoder will use fewer bytes (smaller files) while preserving higher quality - fps - how fast it can encode All hardware encoders are efficient when you look at FPS, but not efficient when it comes to bitrate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- s13ecre13t · 2023-11-04 20:48 h265 is already growing and overtaking. TV show rips, your choices are 1080p h264, 1 hour at 2.5gb or h265 with 500mb. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nixugay · 2023-11-04 20:53 Yeah talking about fps for efficiency and quality/bitrate for quality here ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Majestic-Contract-42 · 2023-11-04 20:55 It could be in the future. My ultimate codec is one that allows direct play to every device. So h264 it is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- s13ecre13t · 2023-11-04 21:04 There is no Ultimate codec. The questions you want to see answered are: - what is best quality per bitrate - currently AV1 owns this - what is the support - AV1 is not yet well supported. Both as hardware decoder/encoder , and in multiple applications (microsofts edge doesn't support it, so none of the Tauri or other ms webview apps will support it, etc) Additionally, Ultimate implies nothing new, but the video world is already pushing new alternatives: - **VVC** aka h266 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versatile_Video_Coding - **EVC** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Video_Coding and siblings like LCEVC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCEVC But VVC/h266 doesn't seem to improve much over AV1 (it is more to catch up to it). and EVC/LCEVC tries to make codec simpler using only new techniques, so we will see if it can improve over AV1, or if it will be just more power/fps efficient (but not bitrate) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DesperateCourt · 2023-11-04 21:09 It's a licensing thing, not a, "we refuse to support it for no reason at all" thing. Chrome has only supported it at all for about a year, and that is certainly nothing to be proud of given how long H.265 has been around and fairly prominent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- colorblind_unicorn · 2023-11-04 21:13 yeah, for now. hope codecs evolve further so launching streaming sites become easier though. >can be direct-played on almost anything this is *kinda* wrong, any pc can decode any codec, it's just really inefficient. we need dedicated accelerators to make them efficient so that mobile devices don't get their battery drained and so that, in general, there aren't performance issues on the end users PC. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- alex2003super · 2023-11-04 21:43 When I can't get a REMUX, I just go for BR-DISK and do it myself (MakeMKV) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-04 21:53 Ogg is a container, av1 is a codec. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- edparadox · 2023-11-04 21:55 Indeed, my bad. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Esus__ · 2023-11-04 22:06 Yep. Av1 decoding is only available on rtx 30 series or similar cards and I’m still on a gtx 1060 for my gaming pc 😬 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- timetofocus51 · 2023-11-04 22:12 Not all devices support AV1. So that's one reason. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- flecom · 2023-11-04 22:42 Maybe I'll upgrade my 2018 phone then... Maybe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdheer · 2023-11-04 23:06 You should not use hardware encoding to convert your library or even a single item. Software encoding will always give you better results. Hardware encoding is for on the fly. I’m speaking in the consumer space ofc; there are commercial hardware encoders that us peasants don’t use. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdheer · 2023-11-04 23:09 Plex encodes as AVC/H.264 when transcoding, correct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hairless_Human · 2023-11-05 00:01 May i ask why tdarr? Unmanic is way faster to setup and more user friendly all while achieving the same results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hairless_Human · 2023-11-05 00:03 r/lostredditors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Epistaxis · 2023-11-05 00:06 MP3 is still the universal audio format despite decades of competition between the superior AAC and Vorbis codecs, leading eventually to Opus. At least AV1, like Opus, isn't patent-encumbered so maybe the adoption on client devices will be a little quicker this time. Plus there's an enormous industry that cares about streaming bandwidth costs now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- benjiro3000 · 2023-11-05 00:23 > AV1 is not widely supported PERIOD. Let me correct that for you: AV1 is ~not~ widely supported ON ANYTHING MODERN. PERIOD. AV1 has actually become VERY common on any hardware that is not from pre 2022. Look up anything new being release beside Apple, that is typical being a ass about new stuff that is not theirs. * AMD 6000 Series and up. * Nvidia 3000 series and up. * AMD CPU 7000 Series * Intel CPU with Xe iGPU * Intel Arc GPUs * Samsung Exynos 2100+ * Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen2+ * Just about every new Oled TV has AV1 support. * Hell, like 80%+ of all new IPS/VA 2023 TV's have AV1 support. * ... Unless your running ancient hardware, AV1 decoding is very common on modern hardware and way more common in recent mobile space. Nobody cares if Apple or Nvidia shield can not decode Av1 (seeing this argument here). It only matters to OP what HIS home situation is. If his devices can decode AV1, then he is set. In other words, just about any new device in 2024 has AV1 support build in besides Apple. Fuck, even cheap minipc with n95/n100 have AV1 support. Great media/home server/plex devices. So all the upvoters, really need to go back and stay up to date with modern hardware because clearly they are living in the past or are "but my PC / TV / ... does not support it, so its not widely supported". AV1 wide support is here and anybody trying to deny it, is living in the past. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- benjiro3000 · 2023-11-05 00:26 > ep. Av1 decoding is only available on rtx 30 series or similar cards and I’m still on a gtx 1060 for my gaming pc Only 3000 Series.... Really? https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/17nnpny/is_av1_the_ultima te_codec/k7v2wbo/ Not other people fault that your running on 2019 hardware. Your hardware is so old it does not even support x265... Well, x265 most also not be widely supported ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DonStimpo · 2023-11-05 00:31 An Intel arc a380 will encode. It's way cheaper ---------------------------------------------------------------------- benjiro3000 · 2023-11-05 00:39 > And not everybody is running the latest and greatest. That is such a strawman argument. We had this same stupid discussions with X264 and X265 and even freaking MP3's (tells ya how old i am). Any new hardware (made in 2023+), TVs etc that you can buy in 2023, minus Apple and a few cheap brands, tends to have AV1 support backed in. If we only use past devices, well, some guy was arguing that his Nvidia 1060 did not support AV1. No shit, that is a 2019 card. It does not even support x265. The downside of AV1 support is ONLY if you have old hardware that your not updating or can not side update. Old TV? Get a new external decoder and voila. We did that for X264. Too many devices to update? Get a cheap Intel n100 mini pc for 100 bucks and plex transcode to x264 / x265 for all the devices that do not support. Some of the arguments i see in this topic, really make me feel old, like people never been in the transition periode. Ironically, AV1 really is widely support now on most things made in 2023 (excluding apple again) and 2024 looks like 95% on every new device. Its even a android 14 requirement! So the only disadvantage is simple the older stuff in people homes and there are way around it or brute force decoding on older PCs. Just like the old x264 days. I got like 4+ years extra life out of a old TV that did not support x264 simply by buying a cheap 40 Euro at the time TV box. Plop, x264 support ;) Your TV does not support AV1, get a cheap box or transcode. But you know what cost more money? Storage space because HDD prices are still expensive given how many years have passed. You can double your storage space simply by moving to AV1 instead of X264. Hell even Linux ISOs releases are popping up more and more with AV1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WorkingISwear · 2023-11-05 00:41 > when I convert from 264 to 265 the file cannot be converted back or into another codec without considerable loss I mean yeah it's lossy encoding. You lose information every time you do it. What do you expect? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WorkingISwear · 2023-11-05 00:42 HEVC already has massive adoption just not in the commercial space because of those aforementioned royalties what are you on about? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WorkingISwear · 2023-11-05 00:48 What's pride got to do with it? It's a money thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- AssociateFalse · 2023-11-05 00:48 Just ISO/IEC 14496-10. ISO 9660 describes the filesystem structure. 🙃 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lannistersstark · 2023-11-05 00:50 >can be direct-played on almost anything Good luck direct playing it on hundreds of thousands of Android TVs out there lol. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lannistersstark · 2023-11-05 00:51 >I'm not gonna pretend like it's perfect for everyone, but it suits me I mean, you did ask in the original question that: > is there any reason to use anything else, are there any downsides? they're just responding as to what the downsides are and why they use other stuff. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Zeiinsito · 2023-11-05 00:59 >Unless your running ancient hardware, AV1 decoding is very common on modern hardware. So pre-2022 hardware is anciend hardware, what a bomb you just dropped lmao. You're missing the point where that all of these new devices, which do have hardware AV1 decoding and/or encoding, are negligible compared to the total number of devices which dont support it at all, making AV1 effectively unusable by the vast majority of the devices people currently use. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DevAnalyzeOperate · 2023-11-05 01:13 Yes, just burn your money and create e-waste to slightly improve video streaming quality instead of using a solution that already works. \>You can double your storage space simply by moving to AV1 instead of X264. You either lose information or do a lossless conversion which takes forever and would hardly save any space. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- acdcfanbill · 2023-11-05 01:43 That's they way most of these newer codecs are getting a lot of compression, by eliminating grain. Since grain behaves basically identically to random noise, it's very difficult to compress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- fprof · 2023-11-05 01:46 I wouldn't reencode my library. Storage is cheap, there is no benefit in saving a few gigabytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdheer · 2023-11-05 01:55 Oh I agree; in fact, my preference is for remuxes. I just meant that for offline reencoding, GPU hardware generally isn’t as good as software encoding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CKingX123 · 2023-11-05 02:20 Apple added AV1 decoding in A17 Pro and the M3 series. Although the iPhone 15 uses A16, next year all of the iPhones will have AV1 as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- OneChrononOfPlancks · 2023-11-05 02:46 I don't think I own a single device (besides computers) that can actually play this. I had to manually make a filter to block AV1 downloads on my automations, and delete and re-find a bunch of movies. So I would have to say so far my opinion about it is... not good! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FierceDeity_ · 2023-11-05 02:54 Apple actually started to support AV1 with iPhone 15. I kinda feared they would stay with their media mafia friends and only do h.265/266 and whatnot. Not that I use Apple, just that they have literally 50% of phones in the USA for example. A player with that size can completely mess up adoption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- schaka · 2023-11-05 03:11 Someone still needs to put in the time to encode in AV1 for you to download your media. Dunno what sources you think there are supplying AV1 outside of YouTube ---------------------------------------------------------------------- schaka · 2023-11-05 03:20 QSV on the Arc cards looks roughly like the medium software preset for x264 and x265. Not amazing, but good enough for most people. Personally wouldn't even consider it, but for someone who's concerned about space for their library enough to try end keep everything in h265, I doubt they can tell the quality apart ---------------------------------------------------------------------- schaka · 2023-11-05 03:24 I'm not upgrading all my devices to AV1 support. Not many Android based media players support it (well) yet, finding reasonably priced phones and tablets isn't happening. It's going to happen eventually. But now isn't it. And unless more media gets natively supplied in AV1, I'm not interested. I won't use hardware encoding to convert my library, that's for sure ---------------------------------------------------------------------- schaka · 2023-11-05 03:26 The 1060 is pascal. It's 2016 and the NVENC encoder does H265 just fine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- schaka · 2023-11-05 03:30 And if you did, you wouldn't wanna use it. Anyone who cares about quality wouldn't use hardware encoding. It's for fast on the fly transcodes and that's it ---------------------------------------------------------------------- schaka · 2023-11-05 03:32 Tbf, shield hasn't been the go to android player for a while. But it's definitely still one of the most popular ones ---------------------------------------------------------------------- schaka · 2023-11-05 03:35 Chrome has been supporting it for a while now. Latest jellyfin branch supports it in the browser, same as AV1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- eaglw · 2023-11-05 03:37 Never heard about it. Do you find it better overall? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- skmcgowan77 · 2023-11-05 03:39 H264 is a codec, for media playback, as in audio and video. ISO is a standardized method of describing content to be written to a medium,such as optical discs CD,VCD,DVD, and Blu-ray to name a few. Linux distribution ISOs are data. Yes, the ISO format can describe audio and video media, including H264 encoded videos. Cheers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lkasdfjl · 2023-11-05 04:59 doesn't av1 have some sort of grain synthesis in the spec? I wonder if the current encoders support that or not ---------------------------------------------------------------------- neon5k · 2023-11-05 05:27 Hevc/x265 is better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok_Antelope_1953 · 2023-11-05 06:01 90% or more hardware currently in circulation don't support hardware decoding of av1. 99% don't support hardware encoding of the format. AV1 is great, but it needs time for adoption. When that time actually comes, there will undoubtedly be something better (AV2?). Hence, there is no ultimate codec. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FeitX · 2023-11-05 06:17 AVC and HEVC still reigns king over legacy devices it will take years before AV1 catches up to the notoriety of the latter two. Not everyone changes hardware that often so TVs, multimedia devices, lacking AV1 support, will still be utilized for years to come, so for the meantime AV1 is currently mostly for transcoding as far as my use case goes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-05 07:02 Not newer codecs: any codec. If you want to keep the grain, crank up the bandwidth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-05 07:19 Also, our archive of downloaded movies from the internet and bluray rips is not the Library Of Congress. If you seriously obsess about the quality difference between hardware and software encoding, you should maybe get a 35mm projector and collect film prints. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdheer · 2023-11-05 07:36 That’s kind of an extreme take. I have a 77” OLED and you’d be surprised what I can see. Having said that, the software encoders will also save you space over hardware. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- reditanian · 2023-11-05 07:38 As far as I know none of the ARM CPUs integrated GPU have AV1 hardware decode, let alone encode (Apple included) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-05 07:43 Don't get me wrong but it's called "pixel peeping", it's a hobby. Yes, there is a theoretically perceivable quality difference. But the overall perception of a masterpiece movie does not change by the fact of being software and hardware encoded. In fact, up to pretty recently, the majority of digitally shot movies where made with a 2k Arri Alexa camera while people claim they look so much better in 4k. A lot of people are obsessing about resolution and "pixel" quality while other things are much more important, like color bit depth or high dynamic range. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 20WaysToEatASandwich · 2023-11-05 08:40 Only downside is the licencing fees ---------------------------------------------------------------------- benjiro3000 · 2023-11-05 13:33 > So pre-2022 hardware is ancient hardware, what a bomb you just dropped in lmao. Its a hyperbole statement, but yea, people really love to get hang up on single lines ... > You're missing the point, where all of these new devices which have hardware AV1 support, are negligible in market share compared to the total number of devices which don't support it at all, making AV1 effectively unusable by the vast majority of the devices people currently use. And your missing the point, like the downvoters. We have reached the point that every NEW device is coming with AV1 support. If today you are given a choice between h264 or av1 and your home situation is more modern, your simply better off with av1. We are not talking about people filesharing to the global market, we are talking what is good for YOUR home situation. If your setup is pure x264/x265, well, sure, its less fun but AV1 still decodes on brute force. Or you can simply update your TV with a external AV1 decoder like we did with x264 transition. The whole idea that people are downvoting, is because they "i can not use it so its not widely available". BUT IT IS! Every new device has av1 these days. So it is widely available. Is that so hard to people to understand??? If we talked 2 years ago, yes, AV1 was a issue as few devices had hardware support for AV1, and yes, AV1 was at that time NOT widely available. I see this same crap with mp3, x264, and so many tech jumps where we had people still argue like children, and then 2 years later as they upgraded their old tech, oooo, now they are using mp3, or x264, or whatever... Here i am enjoying AV1, not because i deliberately upgrade, but because all the stuff i buy in the last 2 years has had AV1 support. Yet, ... people argue about no wide support??? I literally posted just a fraction of what has AV1 support **TODAY** (and i was even wrong on Apple, there is also AV1). And o look, downvoted to hell. Why? Simply because people are childish and can not see past their own nose. So when they finally upgrade, AV1 is there for them. But then they will forget this idiotic discussion because now in their minds, because THEY upgrade, "o, its Widespread". No, its was already now, right now, when i post this 2023 widely available! Not 2024, not 2025... Its only their own older tech that is holding themselves back and they are trying to defend that position. Anyway, downvote away. People will never learn. Seen way too many of these same discussions over the last 30 years (yay for BB's). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- benjiro3000 · 2023-11-05 13:36 > because decoding is still early or absent on most device Look up every new device in 2023 and your hitting at minimum 80% has AV1 support. The only ones seem to be very cheap TV's and rebranded older hardware. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- acdcfanbill · 2023-11-05 14:31 Sure, but that kind of blows the selling points of newer codecs, smaller files. Why would I want to use AV1 if it takes 3 times as long to encode as x264, is approximately the same filesize, and is more computationally expensive to decode. I haven't done grain specific size tests, but AV1 might even perform worse on grainy content at a given specific bitrate. I mean, the engineers obviously know the issues around grain and compression since AV1 includes several grain synthesis options, meant to remove grain during encoding and artificially add generated grain back in at the end of the process for display. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lilolalu · 2023-11-05 14:38 I am not a mathematician but thats where the reason lies, as you mentioned: grain is approaching randomness and random cannot be compressed. any codec i remember was "impossible" to process on CPU when it came out, no matter if mpeg2, h264 etc. so first there needs to be hardware acceleration and then, in a couple of years, cpus are fast enough to process the encoding / decoding in realtime. thats how it always went. right now we are entering the phase where h.265 / hevc is showing up as HW accelerated everywhere, as will av1 be in a couple of years. https://www.reddit.com/r/AV1/comments/tuebhn/svtav1\_git\_add\_enabled nldenoising\_feature/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- huasamaco · 2023-11-05 15:49 > can be direct-played on almost anything nope. depends on client hardware. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GoingOffRoading · 2023-11-06 05:14 HW transcoding - Yes And yes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- AnalNuts · 2023-11-06 18:27 Addendum to this: hardware encoder’s purpose is aimed at real time situations like live streaming. If you’re converting media for consumption (movies, tv etc), then you should absolutely be using CPU. Just be prepared for tens of hours per item you transcode. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- archgabriel33 · 2023-12-02 07:03 To be fair, there will be plenty for people that have the latest iPhones/Androids and even newer windows PCs and macs which don't have a GPU/CPU with hardware AV1 decoding, can do software decoding really well. All my devices support H265 and AV1 hardware decoding so I don't ever really have to worry about live transcoding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- archgabriel33 · 2023-12-02 11:56 To be fair, there will be plenty for people that have the latest iPhones/Androids and even newer windows PCs and macs which don't have a GPU/CPU with hardware AV1 decoding, can do software decoding really well. All my devices support H265 and AV1 hardware decoding so I don't ever really have to worry about live transcoding.