Why IRC is almost dead and how to fix it reddit / irc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hazardousmeme · 2021-05-15 20:35 99% of new users just give up because joining IRC is waaaaayyyy too complicated. They just go to discord instead. IRC has only one chance for survival. When discord sells out their users for cash, IRC has fixed ALL it's idiosyncratic problems, then there's a tiny chance it will be re-adopted as the instant messaging platform of the internet (don't hold your breath though) ------------------------------- irc:// links don't work should be phased out. (*) All IRC servers should have a web interface by default Links should be in this format https://chat.undernet.org/#randomchannel When you click (compared to now) Username should auto-fill with a random, not in use, username (**) It should immediately join (get rid of the captcha, at least for the first or second connection attempt) On joining, channel history of the previous day should be accessible by scrolling up, so you can catch up on what is being said. Channel administrative changes should not trigger tab notifications, (for instance, joins, leaves, voicing anything that's not an actual message) (Ideally these should not even be visible by default as they disrupt the discussion and make the channel unreadable) ----------------------------------------------------------------- So that's the bare minimum for IRC to have any chance for survival before all its users die of old age. Now, that's not really enough to draw in new communities. Here's what else should be added just to keep up with the competition. Ability to post images in main chat and private messages. Not just url of images but actual image blobs. And this includes gifs BTW, or whatever animated images are nowadays, gifv, mp4 ? whatever it is. Next, voice chat. All irc chatroom must have group voice chat enabled by default, who is speaking, volume and muting controls should be obvious an intuitive. Private messages should support voice chat but require destination user to accept voice first (no screaming at strangers) All that is just to catch up of course. To be relevant again, IRC needs to bring innovation, and that's probably transparent video streaming and 3D model streaming. Emoji support should be baked in the protocol (is it already) (* tried in my browser, it asks what application I want to use, the default is mibbit and it asks you more question, so 99% of user give up right there) (bonus, the question is which server you want to connect and undernet is not even an option so it's really a dead end) (**) user can change it later if they actually want to stay and personalize ---------------------------------------------------------------------- carbolymer · 2021-05-15 20:46 you're dead ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hazardousmeme · 2021-05-15 20:47 Still in better shape than IRC. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- carbolymer · 2021-05-15 20:48 Press X to doubt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hazardousmeme · 2021-05-15 20:49 Nice, 10 year old reference, still more culturally relevant than IRC ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FlexentOneBTS · 2021-05-15 22:03 IRC is alive and well ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hazardousmeme · 2021-05-15 22:29 [Unfortunately that is not the case](https://i.imgur.com/O57XAiP.png) and the primary reason for this is refusal to acknowledge that it has become obsolete or even has a problem at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2021-05-15 22:37 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DevelopedLogic · 2021-05-15 22:48 1. Discord is a centralised chat platform, not a protocol 2. IRC doesn't have problems in itself, it's just a protocol which has clients and servers based upon it. It doesn't need to survive, it's not dead and widely used. Heck, twitch chat is based upon it 3. If your IRC links don't work, blame your client. My IRC links work perfectly with Quassel. IRC links are just protocol links, they're not part of IRC itself 4. Lots of IRC servers have a web interface, but all a web interface does is connect pretty much like any other IRC client. IRC once again is a protocol, so if you want to write a module for an IRC server which adds a web interface I'm sure it will be used 5. Your link format would unfortunately not be adopted because an IRC web client developer isn't forced to follow it 6. Username selection is again part of the client and not specific to IRC 7. Captchas etc are part of the client and not specific to IRC 8. Adding native scroll back is being drafted into the IRCv3 spec and if you have a bouncer client is already possible 9. Tab notifications are specific to the client not to the protocol 10. Image blobs are supported by some clients I believe. This is again client specific though could be boosted by some server support. Not checked but wouldn't be shocked if there is an IRCv3 specification being drafted for it 11. IRC is Internet Relay Chat. It is not a voice protocol, it is a chat protocol. If a companion protocol were to appear and get adopted into an IRC server, it becomes not an IRC server but a multiprotocol server. Voice chat misses the point of IRC, the protocol purpose. Discord is sort of a multiprotocol service in this regard. 12. Emoji support is just UTF-8 text encoding. Though some older servers probably would moan about it, newer servers just work as long as your client supports it. Again therefore not specific to the protocol My point here is not to just take a big dump on your post, but rather to explain the real meaning of IRC. It is a protocol, not a full and specific service. The protocol is defined by numerous specifications and it is up to both clients and servers to implement specifications. There is a minimum set of requirements for clients and servers and then any additional functionality supported by either is negotiated as the connection is made. It is important to understand that IRC works in a different way to Discord, being not owned by anyone in particular and can therefore be run and managed however the person using it likes. Discord pushes everyone to use the same set of rules because they control everything from start to finish. A good few of your issues can be solved by either building your own client, building your own server or looking for an existing or making an IRCv3 specification draft. Any questions you may have do feel free to reply with them 😃 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- schwiftshop · 2021-05-15 23:14 you know who's actually dead? My mom! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KH405_TV · 2021-05-16 03:31 The people who are still dumb enough to give data to google are probably not the ones sitting in the thousands of IRC channels about FOSS and everything related. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matteo5150 · 2021-05-16 12:02 You are just confused. Most of the things you said are client related, so they are not related to IRC protocol. The rest of the things are just easy to fix or some networks already have that (for example, when you enter a Channel you can read the previous text written). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Xsimon47 · 2021-05-16 14:01 Based on all of this, you don't want IRC, at all. First of, why does IRC have to compete with Discord and other centralized social platforms exactly? IRC isn't a corporate entity, it's not even a piece of software, it's just a minimal *__protocol__* for text communication, minimal enough to not even incorperate encryption by default. You can't just "add voice chat". Voice communication would require it's own protocol in itself, at which point, why exactly are you sticking with IRC? Sure, people have made ["Voice over IRC" Proof of Concepts](https://github.com/asiekierka/voirc),but those are effectively protocols on top of IRC, and at best; **jokes.** As for gifs (.gifv's) / mp4 embeds, user avatars etc, those are up to individual clients to handle. Discord doesn't send the full image data when you send a gif to a friend you know? It too also just sends a link, which your client then interprets and embeds as an image. Nonetheless, my understanding is that at least that the latter one (user avatars) seems to be of concideration for the proposed [IRCv3](https://ircv3.net/) standard. Sure, reading this, you seem to be mostly trolling here, but for those who come across this post whom are less fortunate, and maybe just now finding out about IRC, it's good to understand these basics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- trekkie1701c · 2021-05-16 17:03 > Adding native scroll back is being drafted into the IRCv3 spec and if you have a bouncer client is already possible It's actually also already possible in UnrealIRCd, via the channel history mode. You can configure a max number of lines to store as well as a time limit for how many lines back to send out whenever a user joins a channel. >Image blobs are supported by some clients I believe. This is again client specific though could be boosted by some server support. Not checked but wouldn't be shocked if there is an IRCv3 specification being drafted for it Do you have some specific ones? I've done a bit of looking around in the past and hadn't had any luck, but it is definitely something I'd like to see in an IRC client. EDIT: The OP's link format also seems like it might be problematic since # is normally the start of a fragment in a URL. If you do domain.tld/#randomtet it'll just load the index page in a browser. So that's a few other issues that'd need to be worked out, before you could even give IRC admins the option of implementing it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- trekkie1701c · 2021-05-16 17:18 Also IRC is generic and if I want to find a specific server I'd search google for that server if I'm going to google it, rather than just IRC. Whereas if I want to find Discord stuff I'm going to search for Discord. This would throw off the results a bit. ...Also most IRC users probably don't need to google for stuff about IRC because you set it up and it just sort of works. Discord likes to give me problems every now and then. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hazardousmeme · 2021-05-17 04:48 Thinking of IRC as a "just a protocol" is clearly part of the problem. This is why users have been leaving in droves while almost no new users are getting onboard. If "build your own client" is the solution to bad user experience then IRC really is just a relic of an earlier era (like NNTP). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DevelopedLogic · 2021-05-17 06:33 It... What? It is just a protocol. That's what it is. The IRCv3 website's working group opening text is "We’re a collection of IRC developers and network staff working to enhance the IRC protocol" https://ircv3.net/wg . If you don't want a new client, contribute to existing ones like Quassel. If you don't want a new server, contribute to existing ones like Oragono. Both are still in active development and Oragono is even relatively new. I'm sorry but you can't change a protocol into something more than it is. It is a set of drafted and agreed specifications as to how clients and servers could, should and must communicate with each other. If something in a specification doesn't do what you want, why not participate? https://ircv3.net/participation Bad user experience is entirely in your own hands to choose another client (which resolves most of your issues) or choose to run a server configured how you want, and to contribute to those to fix things you feel are wrong. I am perfectly happy with my client save for one issue, and hey I could contribute to fix that issue but I haven't yet, that's entirely my choice and you have that choice too. Here's the chat history spec: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/chathistory Also, here's IRCCloud, a webclient which fixes some of your issues https://www.irccloud.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DevelopedLogic · 2021-05-17 06:35 Here's one https://www.irccloud.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- noman_032018 · 2021-05-21 19:23 > 99% of new users just give up because joining IRC is waaaaayyyy too complicated. They just go to discord instead. It's not and they go to Discord because of [bandwagon effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect). > irc:// links don't work should be phased out. (*) I don't care eitherway, barely anyone uses that for irc. But I don't think that's a reasonable argument either. Protocol URIs are supposed to be taken care of by your system. If you have not set up your system to interpret them, then obviously they won't work. [Here is reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Ide ntifier#Syntax) for this concept. > Username should auto-fill with a random, not in use, username (**) That's a client feature and has nothing to do with the protocol. > It should immediately join (get rid of the captcha, at least for the first or second connection attempt) That's a client anti-feature. reCaptcha should die. > On joining, channel history of the previous day should be accessible by scrolling up, so you can catch up on what is being said. Again that's a client feature. But server-provided logs are an optional feature in [ircv3](https://ircv3.net/) as chathistory. > Channel administrative changes should not trigger tab notifications, (for instance, joins, leaves, voicing anything that's not an actual message) (Ideally these should not even be visible by default as they disrupt the discussion and make the channel unreadable) That is, again, a client feature and not all clients do it the same. > So that's the bare minimum for IRC to have any chance for survival before all its users die of old age. Not really a risk, I reckon most people in FOSS are <50yo. > Ability to post images in main chat and private messages. Not just url of images but actual image blobs. And this includes gifs BTW, or whatever animated images are nowadays, gifv, mp4 ? whatever it is. Ah yes, let's increase the attack surface of all clients for shit and giggles. And also increase the amount of bandwidth required for both servers and clients. Let's also not forget how this disadvantages users with barbaric ISPs enforcing datacaps. Sending arbitrary binary streams through irc is mostly feasible, although some special values like null bytes have special meaning in the protocol. So an encoding is necessary. All of this can be implemented client-wise with a non-standard handshake protocol to verify if a client supports these features. Protocol spec and special meanings can be referenced: [here](https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1459#section-2.3.1) and [here](https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2812#section-2.3.1). > Next, voice chat. All irc chatroom must have group voice chat enabled by default, who is speaking, volume and muting controls should be obvious an intuitive. Private messages should support voice chat but require destination user to accept voice first (no screaming at strangers) Unnecessary for a chat protocol. In addition, if you want that you could just move to `XMPP` instead which *does* have [XEP-0166: Jingle](https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0166.html) SIP-like session initialization. You could also use [Mumble](https://www.mumble.info/) instead. I also don't really like the notion of improving my chances of doxing over IRC for no real benefit. It is also very hard to log voicechat in order to reference technical discussion later. Usually such conversations are transcribed anyway. > All that is just to catch up of course. To be relevant again, IRC needs to bring innovation, and that's probably transparent video streaming and 3D model streaming. You do know that IRC stands for Internet Relay Chat, right? What the hell does video streaming and 3D streaming have to do with that? Again, if you want to initialize arbitrary sessions of media and content, use an existing XEP or submit one for XMPP and implement it. IRC is not the place for it. > Emoji support should be baked in the protocol (is it already) Arbitrary non-null values can already be sent over IRC and someone decided to add those to UTF-8, display or lack thereof is a client- centric thing. They do not bring any real value over kaomojis (besides being standardized), and are arguably worse and less versatile. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hazardousmeme · 2021-05-21 19:51 This is not "bandwagon effect". Discord exists because of the extreme obsolescence of IRC. [This is proof.](https://i.imgur.com/O57XAiP.png) Interest in IRC completely died off years before discord came out. This entire thread is excuses why it's perfectly fine as it it. IRC has gone from being -the- most active form of live discussion on the planet, like that time where IRC was the place to be [during the Gulf war apparently](https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/communicatio ns/logs/Gulf-War/) But since the early 2000s, it is stagnant then and obsolete. This created the space for private owned alternatives to take over. The last chance of IRC to become relevant is to include the missing features and hope that discord sells out their user so bad that they jump ship again. IRC has lost critical mass, just another ancient relic of the past exactly like NNTP. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- noman_032018 · 2021-05-21 20:00 > This is not "bandwagon effect". Discord exists because of the extreme obsolescence of IRC. It exists because it has some shiny features (which have nothing do with *chat* protocols), its UI and use are simplified as all lock-in centralized solutions are and bandwagon effect. > This is proof. Interest in IRC completely died off years before discord came out. Interesting proof, it almost seems to coincide with social networks' growth and massive centralized solutions becoming more popular in general. Funny how that goes. > But since the early 2000s, it is stagnant then and obsolete. This created the space for private owned alternatives to take over. The fact a new protocol specification is underway means it isn't stagnant as a protocol. In addition, a protocol only needs revision and modification if it is found lacking within the purview of its purpose for some reason or another. The fact a new revision is underway obviously implies it has. As for the corporate takeover, I'm sure it wasn't helped by how willing to share their source-code and how efficient the protocols they use are, and how they use absolutely no advertising and PR money to be louder than competitors⸮ > The last chance of IRC to become relevant is to include the missing features and hope that discord sells out their user so bad that they jump ship again. Whoever pays the most to have the most advertising and influencers shill them is the most likely to succeed Discord. Technical merit has very little to do with popularity, as your next point handily demonstrates. > IRC has lost critical mass, just another ancient relic of the past exactly like NNTP. Funny you'd mention that one, as there have yet to be any major conversation distribution schemes that are anywhere near as efficient and well-designed succeeding it. Forums were unambiguously inferior technically. The next best thing design-wise for resilience but which left most of the actual distribution up to users was [Syndie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndie), which never gained any steam because it was a part-time project by a very small team of devs. Both are also vaguely more complex than browsing to some web walled- garden. About technical merit: Notice how Youtube is more vulnerable to DMCA attacks, and is a lot more bandwidth inefficient than Peertube? And that its frond-end also has more memory leaks (due to some of the advertising shenanigans it does)? Consider how Peertube has managed to do better than Youtube has in technical terms in a scarce few years with a **much** smaller team. (Of course that's partly because a lot of effort at Youtube seems to be about "how can we make things *worse*" instead of improving.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hopingforabetterpast · 2021-05-22 06:49 google trends? really? look up irc server stats, you'll see a different curve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cyber_Feynman · 2021-06-15 21:42 This. Am I expecting too much, if I expect that someone who works as a programmer for multiple years can go from zero to reading the first irc message in less than half an hour? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hazardousmeme · 2021-06-15 21:52 Grandma should be able to find the internet biggest sewing community and connect to it's IRC channel, read their previous discussion, see their images and videos and post her own in less than 5 minutes. Same goes for the equally deprecated nntp. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SmallerBork · 2021-06-17 15:25 And? That's the only kind of users you want to use IRC? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SmallerBork · 2021-06-17 15:38 > its UI and use are simplified as all lock-in centralized solutions are... No. Matrix, the protocol and Element the client made by the same devs prove federation and good UI aren't mutually exclusive. The fact that you think they are is a sign of why IRC servers userbase has been shrinking. Maybe after the Freenode debacle they can get it in gear but I'm not getting my hopes up. Discord filled the gap that IRC did in the past, same as OBS except it happens to be FOSS. Bandwagon effect doesn't cause a piece of software to succeed, it means that it has succeeded. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- noman_032018 · 2021-06-17 17:20 >No. >Matrix, the protocol and Element the client made by the same devs prove federation and good UI aren't mutually exclusive. I know that. How did I imply otherwise? The majority of my objections to the first post were similar, claiming that the client was the issue. So obviously that implies a different client could be made to look, you know, different. I said nothing about the possibility of better or rather, simpler UI (I disagree that it's better). Discord has a simpler UI which attracts normies, that much is true. Matrix was late to the party, had basically no advertising, and didn't benefit from much bandwagon effect until it was already too late. That's similar to the case mp3 becoming the main known music file format despite it being inferior on all accounts to ogg (including license-wise). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CuriosTiger · 2021-07-04 03:49 The Internet is more than just the web. If all you want is web chat, there are plenty of options for that. No need to reinvent the wheel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CuriosTiger · 2021-07-04 03:51 A programmer, no. Grandma, probably yes. Some would view the relative obscurity of IRC as a feature. I'm not sure I'm ready to completely defend that viewpoint, but I do think the dynamic would be different if everyone and their dog could participate with a single click. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Unable-Genius · 2022-06-15 20:05 Hilarious. This is like when you say to your boss "Thats not possible, even if we had a computer the size of the entire universe and a trillion years, we could not do that." and he goes "Not with that attitude, you can't". Some things are facts, and thinking differently about them doesn't make those things not facts. You can't stay dry in a rainstorm by looking at it from a different perspective, or float into space by thinking of gravity in another way. No matter how you or I think, IRC will stubbornly remain just a protocol specification for text based discussions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RudeBlueJeans · 2023-10-22 01:43 They suck if you need any help from them. I'm going to cancel it actually. Totally not happy with those jerks.