DALnet webirc client replacement, webirc support, and IPv6 support reddit / irc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- arcalion · 2013-01-03 01:00 Hello! We (DALnet) wanted to announce a couple of things to the community here. Firstly, we have been busy lately, and since DALnet rarely gets mentioned with anything other than nostalgia for the pre-2003 ddos days, I wanted to point out a few things to /r/irc, since I think the community here is pretty great. 1) bahamut (dalnet's ircd) now supports the webirc protocol/command, SSL, and ipv6. 2) The webirc bit allowed us to get rid of our 90's java web client and install qwebirc, which is now available on www.dal.net via "Chat Now" in the right hand column. 3) It also allowed us to properly support Mibbit and Kiwiirc's web client implementations and have client IP addresses display properly. 4) We now officially support IPv6 via ipv6.dal.net (currently only supported on one server, but more to come very shortly). Yes, I realize that we are late to the party on almost all of these items...but since we made the announcement on our website and have had some people coming out of the woodwork to say thanks, this is great, I've been waiting a long time...I figured I'd let the community here know as well. I'd be interested to know what features any of you on DALnet are looking to see in the future, too. Happy New Year! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Pteraspidomorphi · 2013-01-03 14:10 You're from dalnet? I'll be perfectly frank - The last time my community moved networks we considered dalnet, but not for long. The entire setup seemed so slow and dated in comparison to more modern networks. And this showed in the community, which seemed to be mostly zombie (idler) leftovers from the 90s, and was greatly reduced in size from what I remembered (I have been using IRC for a long, long time). I think it's a good thing you are making an effort to modernize and can only wish that you won't stop here. Good luck! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- arcalion · 2013-01-03 14:53 That's probably a pretty fair assessment, depending on what time period you're talking about. I guess I can shed some light on some other infrastructure things we've worked on over the last few years to improve upon those points. After the attacks in 2003, we started rolling out our IX servers, which I think we did a really poor job communicating about back in those days. I was just a user back then, and it was infuriating. Most of the public servers were DDOS'd to hell, and I couldn't get on any IX servers and couldn't figure out why. Since the IP for the IX servers was a part of the irc.dal.net pool, if you happened to hit it but were using an ISP that couldn't reach an IX, you just couldn't connect. We recently changed the way that works. An IX server (short for Internet Exchange) is a server that sits in an Internet Exchange facility where various providers directly link with one another to exchange traffic at greatly reduced cost compared to their normal transit expenses. We directly link up with providers at these locations, and advertise the same two IX IP addresses in all of those locations. Those IP's can't be reached by any machine on the Internet - only by customers of the providers we peer with at those exchanges. This makes them fairly resistant to attack, since a large ddos botnet's traffic would be spread out across 18 IX servers, and much of the traffic would go nowhere. We removed the IX ip's from the irc.dal.net pool so that users who couldn't reach them wouldn't be confused when trying to connect to DALnet, and created ix.dal.net, which is what we recommend folks try connecting to first for the closest, fastest, and most stable connection. If you can't connect to that, then irc.dal.net will put you on one of our six fully public servers. Our IX infrastructure is pretty complex and robust, and I'm pretty sure we're the only IRC network doing this. As for the zombie idlers...back when we had capacity issues, we would relentless hunt down idle connections even if they weren't doing anything other than sitting there and making a channel look big. These days we're a bit more lax if bots aren't actually doing any harm - though for egregious cases, we still remove them. We're pretty vigilant about removing abusive botnets, and use a lot of the tools that are pretty standard across IRC networks (open proxy monitors, compromised host blacklists), as well as some that we've developed internally. I would say the most recent problem that we've been addressing is the transient nature of staff and dwindling activity levels, both among operators and non-operator volunteers in help channels. I blame this partially on the general downward swing that most IRC networks have seen lately in terms of user count, but also on our own internal staff stagnation. We've recently recruited some new staff and are continuing to seek out good additions to make sure that we're addressing customer service issues. We have a ticket system, we have people staffing the help channel (and a bot that pages an oper if someone joins while it's empty), and we're encouraging staff to crawl out of their +s holes and hang in visible channels to start rebuilding the sense of community that used to exist. It's not perfect and we have a long way to go, but, we're alive, we're trying, and we're creeping back toward the community we used to have. I appreciate your feedback, and thanks for the good luck wish - if you ever decide to move your community again, give us a shout. I'm brandon on dalnet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2013-01-03 19:03 Ah the ddos war of 2003. I use to use Dalnet, til I took a ddos to the knee. *yup I went there. no turning back!* ---------------------------------------------------------------------- arcalion · 2013-01-03 20:11 Let me guess. Someone stole your sweet roll? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KindOne · 2013-01-04 02:17 These are some of the issues I have with DALnet. **Services:** :halcyon.il.us.dal.net PRIVMSG nickserv :identify example_password :halcyon.il.us.dal.net 487 KindOne :Error! "/msg NickServ" is no longer supported. Use "/msg NickServ@services.dal.net" or "/NickServ" instead. What? I think you can do a "Restrict block" inside your IRCds config for the services nicks so that nobody /nicks to them when a netsplit or services go crashing down. If this does not work, get a better IRCd that would allow you to prevent people from doing /nick NickServ ... This creates lovely issues when setting up auto-identify scripts and stuff. I want to use /msg nickserv help. NOT /nickserv help.. I want to be able to use a NickServ tab/window. Not constantly having to /nickserv inside the NickServ tab. I do NOT have to send /nickserv on other networks since they use better services and IRCd's. :halcyon.il.us.dal.net PRIVMSG nickserv :help :halcyon.il.us.dal.net 487 KindOne :Error! "/msg NickServ" is no longer supported. Use "/msg NickServ@services.dal.net" or "/NickServ" instead. No I will not. Of all the networks I lurk/idle/talk in your network is the only one that does this silly paranoid stuff. Having to log into the DALnet website to see what channels I have access in is stupid. I want to see my channel access via services. Not having to open a browser and look. Your services "help UI" is crap. That's to put it bluntly. I think this is the part where you abandon your services and use Atheme or Anope. Just something better than your weird outdated services. **IRCd:** Finally supports webchat? You are extremely late to the game. Other IRCds have had this for YEARS. SSL? Wow.. This is really really late .. Also.. WHY do you use some different numeric vs the other major IRCd's? halcyon.il.us.dal.net WHOIS Example Example :arcor.de.eu.dal.net 311 KindOne Example cake www.google.com * :... :arcor.de.eu.dal.net 319 KindOne Example :#Example :arcor.de.eu.dal.net 312 KindOne Example arcor.de.eu.dal.net :www.arcor.de - Arcor Online Services :arcor.de.eu.dal.net 307 KindOne Example :has identified for this nick :arcor.de.eu.dal.net 275 KindOne Example :is using a secure connection (SSL) :arcor.de.eu.dal.net 317 KindOne Example 37 1357076359 :seconds idle, signon time :arcor.de.eu.dal.net 318 KindOne Example :End of /WHOIS list. Charybdis: SSL Support for a long long time.. :cosmos.snoonet.org 671 KindOne KindOne :is using a secure connection UnrealIRCd: SSL Support for 8+ years :dissonance.nl.eu.synirc.net 671 KindOne KindOne :is using a Secure Connection InspIRCd: - SSL Support for 7+ Years. :kenny.chatspike.net 671 KindOne KindOne :is using a secure connection The major IRCd's use numeric 671. Why are you using 275? You are not using 671 for anything.. Can you at least try to follow some unofficial standards here? IPv6? What? I though everyone supported it.. Oh well... :halcyon.il.us.dal.net version halcyon.il.us.dal.net :halcyon.il.us.dal.net 351 KindOne bahamut-2.0.4. halcyon.il.us.dal.net :aABCdEFhiMrstTY/ TS5ow RPL1 NP[IkLU] What? Why am I not allowed to see the all the numeric 005 and stuff " CHANLIMIT=#:20 PREFIX=(ov)@+ " ? Why do I need to connect to it in order to see this info? This is silly. You are the only network that I know of that hides the "/quote version server_here.dal.net" output. Are you afraid someone might DDoS your servers with this info? I mean we can easily connect to every server within your network and get this info. Or just create a python script to connect/disconnect to them one at a time and grab this info. Limited to 20 channels? That's a bit low. Its 2013. You should be able to allow at least 50. The largest IRC network allows 120. IRC clients can easily handle 100+ channels now. This day and age people have at least 2+ GB of RAM and CPU to handle this. TS5!? Wow.. That is old. You hear about TS6!?! I hear its better. WHY WHY WHY do you allow non-ascii characters into channel names? This is 2013. Everything should be in Unicode. Nobody should be using code pages. Code Pages are for the 1990s. This should be disabled immediately. Just one of the non-ascii channels in a /list ... What is this gibberish? :halcyon.il.us.dal.net 322 KindOne #ÚãÇä 10 :12ÑóÈøóäóÇ áÇó ÊõÒöÛú ÞõáõæÈóäóÇ ÈóÚúÏó ÅöÐú åóÏóíúÊóäóÇ æóåóÈú áóäóÇ ãöä áøóÏõäßó ÑóÍúãóÉð Åöäøóßó ÃóäÊó ÇáúæóåøóÇÈõ 15 ]  15,12ãÑÍÈÇ Èßã Ýí ÞäÇÉ ÚãÇä' I think this is the part where you abandon bahamut and find something better like charybdis or UnrealIRCd or maybe try InspIRCd.... or just live in 2005. So Yes, welcome to 2005! ! Hopefully your IRCd will at least IRCv3 capable in 2020. (please feel free to Google IRCv3) (All the major IRCd's support it right now.).. Or should we wait until 2050? Hope you enjoined my rant. Edit: added more stuff. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- arcalion · 2013-01-04 03:01 I did, it made me smile! I'll try to address some of your points... * Regarding nickserv... This should be trivial to change in an auto-identify script. Yes, we can and do restrict the usage of the nick nickserv at the ircd level. That's not the point. The point is that we have users who are for whatever reason fooled by things that have similar nicks to nickserv...or even sometimes things that are *grossly disssimilar* to nickserv, and gullible users just give away their passwords to fake services or people posing as staff. This way, we can educate people to never put their password anywhere other than a /nickserv identify command, and know that they're safe. This change was made over a decade ago, and was well received at the time. If you need some help modifying your scripts to handle this, feel free to message me on IRC! * Services help ui is crap I'm not sure what you're talking about - the help commands, or the website that lists them? Do you have suggestions to improve them? Suggestions that you can make in a productive way? :) * Having to log in to the website to view your channel access is stupid Yeah, actually...I agree with this one. I'm going to ask for this feature. * Use Atheme/Anope Personally I much prefer DALnet's services, but you're entitled to your opinion. We'll never switch, the process of converting to another packages database would be nearly impossible. We have the oldest irc services implementation and the oldest database, with people who have nicks registered in the early 90's - we're not taking that away from them just to switch to different services. * You're late to the game with SSL and webirc-style-spoofing support Yeah, I said that in my original post * You use a different numeric for the SSL line in a whois than most other IRCDs I don't really see why this is a big deal, but I suppose we could change it in the next release * I thought everyone supported ipv6 No, far from everyone, and certainly not every server on the networks that do support it. And being late to the game is no reason not to show up at all. * Maxchans too low I don't understand why anyone wants to be in more than 20 channels, but that's just the default, it's easily changed. I just changed it to 50 for you on halcyon...let me know if you need more. * Hiding /quote version server.dal.net This could be another fairly easy to implement change to the /version command - why is it not there? Because no one ever asked. Don't worry though...I'll ask the coders nicely instead of pasting what you wrote :P Anyway thanks for the rant, believe it or not we don't mind the feedback. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- KindOne · 2013-01-04 03:26 Well, I just edited my original post.. > This should be trivial to change in an auto-identify script. Yes, we can and do restrict the usage of the nick nickserv at the ircd level. That's not the point. The point is that we have users who are for whatever reason fooled by things that have similar nicks to nickserv...or even sometimes things that are grossly disssimilar to nickserv, and gullible users just give away their passwords to fake services or people posing as staff. This way, we can educate people to never put their password anywhere other than a /nickserv identify command, and know that they're safe. This change was made over a decade ago, and was well received at the time. If you need some help modifying your scripts to handle this, feel free to message me on IRC! > If they get fooled by someone doing "/nick NiickServ", then they should learn how to spell the services nick. I don't need help with scripts. Its just annoying that DALnet uses "/nickserv" or the "/msg NickServ@services.dal.net" vs what all the other networks use. > I don't really see why this is a big deal, but I suppose we could change it in the next release > Clients / Scripts / other things, would need to be updated in order to take into account that your ircd uses numeric 275 (which is the only ircd that i know of that uses this numeric) for ssl .. so yeah, I think its a big deal. I think all IRCds should at least try and follow some sort of unofficial standards where possible. > I don't understand why anyone wants to be in more than 20 channels, but that's just the default, it's easily changed. I just changed it to 50 for you on halcyon...let me know if you need more. > Actually some people like idling in lots and lots of channels believe it or not. Some times most of the channels are idle while a few are active, so just speak in the active ones and play a game of chatting in channels that have an interesting conversation. I do it all the time. >Personally I much prefer DALnet's services, but you're entitled to your opinion. We'll never switch, the process of converting to another packages database would be nearly impossible. We have the oldest irc services implementation and the oldest database, with people who have nicks registered in the early 90's - we're not taking that away from them just to switch to different services. > I'm sure some other services providers might help with the transition/upgrade process. You don't have to lose your db in upgrading. The look and feel and annoying. Its just wtf.. I just don't see your stuff anywhere else. Just start a copy of charybdis / Atheme and play with the "/ns help" and "/cs help" on a VM or something for awhile. Or connect to a network that uses them. Give it a few days or maybe a week or two, you might like it. I've tried DALnet's stuff for months and I can't get use to it. > This could be another fairly easy to implement change to the /version command - why is it not there? Because no one ever asked. Don't worry though...I'll ask the coders nicely instead of pasting what you wrote :P > Its a rather nice way of debugging / checking stuff. The #ircd channel is dead.. Also, In my original post, I added in some IRCv3 stuff after you replied, opinions on that? Also, lets rant on IRC. I don't know your IRC nick so, what is it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2013-01-04 12:30 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2013-01-04 15:09 No. They did flatten all four of my tires though heh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FiveInTheStink · 2013-04-19 03:01 Who are you on dalnet?