Pretty cool hate speech filter you guys have in your chat room. reddit / irc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 00:06 I used the word "nigger" twice while discussing the idiocy of taking the word out of Huck Finn and replacing it with "slave," and got me a cool little ban. Way to be just as bad as the fucking PC retards that are banning books and words (which apparently you guys do already). Way to go, reddit. Keep up the good work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sje46 · 2011-02-18 04:39 Was it a bot? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 08:04 You have a place to go if you want to use that word, #reddit-uncut. Otherwise, certain words offend certain people, it's just a reality of being in a community. If you want to discuss this further, PM me or another mod. Publicly is *not* the appropriate method to deal with channel issues, despite the apparent popularity of said method. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- aperson · 2011-02-18 09:58 Actually, I'm pretty sure you can't say that there, either. > Publicly is not the appropriate method to deal with channel issues, despite the apparent popularity of said method. Oh yes it is. It brings to light to others the state of the channel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 15:08 Yeah, it was. Not that big of a deal. I just think it's a bit hypocritical that reddit plays like it's the champion of free speech and all that BS, and then has a bot that bans you for using the same words that induce reddit contempt when they are banned anywhere else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 15:15 > Actually, I'm pretty sure you can't say that there, either. Actually, you can. > Oh yes it is. It brings to light to others the state of the channel. According to the IRC rules, it's simply not. If you want to discuss the changing of the IRC rules, that's also something that should be started in private, but can be made public if it's done the correct way (that is, without obvious trolling). We have a problem in #reddit, and it has to do with the large number of people who tend to start shit for the sake of starting shit. In order to weed out those who like to troll from those who have actual problems, we have to do *something*. Contacting a mod via PM will get your complaint heard. Publicly airing your dirty laundry just shuts down conversation, and is a great way to have your future, possibly legitimate concerns, ignored. So if you actually want something done, PM a mod. If you want attention and disruption, then continue to complain publicly. That's all I have to say of the matter for now, although I'm sure I'll be repeating myself a few hundred more times when stuff like this comes up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- aperson · 2011-02-18 15:24 > Contacting a mod via PM will get your complaint heard. Doesn't work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- aperson · 2011-02-18 15:27 Y'know how many times this shit keeps getting brought up, yet nothing ever happens? Don't get me started on the word fag. I remember when the channel was a free-for-all (no spamming or flooding and you were good to go). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 15:28 I appreciate what you are saying. And perhaps this isn't the preferred method of bringing things to light. But lets be realistic. Would one iota of anything be changed if I PMed an op in a room with 600 people? Really really doubtful. I'm not a noob, my friend. I realize that egos and feelings and other things get in the way. Also, I saw nothing that signified who was an op in the chat room itself. The thing is, I can understand the filter to a point. But I was in the middle of a conversation. And the room moves fast. And it bumped me out for simply using a word that is still in books in grade schools. And because of this I may not bother going back. It didn't make me mad, but it was extremely frustrating. And I doubt I'm the first or last person to deal with this. It's probably something that more than just one mod should hear about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 15:45 >So if you actually want something done, PM a mod. If you want attention and disruption, then continue to complain publicly. That's all I have to say of the matter for now, although I'm sure I'll be repeating myself a few hundred more times when stuff like this comes up. Honestly, dude, you can go fuck yourself. It's an irc channel. It's not that serious. It's not as though I'm airing the dirty laundry of a fortune 500 company. And I know for a fact that egos and what not would prevent any change from occurring if I were only to PM a mod. Are you fucking kidding me? That is made clear simply by your sanctimonious responses in here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sje46 · 2011-02-18 16:00 You know, I'm not actually opposed to moderation, really. After all, you do have #reddit-uncut. *However* it is pretty BS that a *bot* banned you. A bot should only ban someone if it detects flooding, IMO. Never for language. For that, the channel needs more moderators. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 16:05 Contact me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 16:06 Sorry. :( Edit: > you can go fuck yourself. but I thought > It's an irc channel. It's not that serious. What gives? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 16:09 Here's the thing: Do you think anything's going to change if you do this publicly? Because I can *guarantee* nothing will if you don't do this the right way. Maybe nothing will change if you do it the right way either, but at least there's a shot. Right now you're at 0% chance for change, because you're not following the rules in the first place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 16:18 I know nothing will change. I understand the mentality. There are hundreds of people in the channel at any given time. I'm simply a peon. Publicly or privately, me as an individual addressing anything will probably not bring about change. But doing it publicly will at least brings to light what is going on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 16:26 > But doing it publicly will at least brings to light what is going on. What is going on is spelled out in the channel rules, it's neither your job nor your obligation to further derail discussion in the channel to channel maintenance. But you may have a point in here, the subreddit, as this is a place to discuss the IRC channel. Normally in the IRC channel it's not a good idea to drag problems out in public there, as it distracts from the normal flow of conversation, but here the whole conversation is *about* the IRC channel, so I can see how it'd make sense. As for the particular word triggered bans, they were created as a means of even enforcement. There was complaint about moderators not applying certain rules fairly, and so the task was automated, despite being aware that occasionally, there are indeed times where the banned words are appropriate. If indeed you were in earnest using the word in an appropriate way, I apologize, but unfortunately there are a great many people in the channel who would use offensive words for the sake of using them. In fact, almost all use of the banned words falls into this category, I would wager. Seeing as there is no self- moderation system in place (you can't downvote an IRC comment), there has to be some level of moderation to maintain the flow of discussion in the same spirit as what occurs on Reddit proper. Again, I'm sorry if you got caught up in the filter, but no system is perfect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 16:30 I'm only supposed to curse in serious situations? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 16:33 Should I not generally associate cursing with anger? Maybe that's my fault, I dunno. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 16:49 It's more frustration. You're in a position of authority and you're a condescending smart ass (or at least you came off as one). It's frustrating to deal with. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 16:51 I'm not in a position of power, trust me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 16:55 You seem to have implied that you're a mod. Maybe I'm mistaken. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 17:04 I am, but that's not really important to this discussion, I don't think. I would be saying the same things either way. I have said the same things without being a mod, in fact. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 17:11 We're caught in a vicious cycle, it seems. On one hand, if the rules aren't applied universally to everyone, people complain. A solution is implemented, and now people are complaining about the solution. What you've got to keep in mind is that there is a significant amount of skepticism amongst the moderators as to whether or not the complaints regarding this issue are legitimate or simply attention- seeking behavior, with the issue itself playing second fiddle to the trolling effort. I've yet to see a reasoned argument come forth from someone who hasn't at one point resorted to name calling and intentional use of the filtered words as a half-baked means of "protest". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 19:59 >I've yet to see a reasoned argument come forth from someone who hasn't at one point resorted to name calling and intentional use of the filtered words as a half-baked means of "protest". Think what you will, chief. I could dig through the log and show you the discussion if you really think I'm making this up. It's no biggy. Nothing some asterisks can't beat if someone so desires. I was more addressing my disappointment that the chat room for reddit, and it's free speech advocating members, filters words. It just seems ridiculous and unnecessary. It reminds me of school and library filters that block breast cancer sites because they use the word "breast." Gasp! While not at all taking into account the context. BTW, no where in the rules does it say the bot will ban me if I use an "offensive" term while discussing something that is no way offensive. I had assumed that your ops actually did what ops usually do; ban the trolls and spammers; not pawn it off onto an automated robot dummy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 20:26 Section 1 under ["Do"](http://www.reddit.com/help/irc): > Follow freenode server policies. Freenode server policies in addition to outlining the server wide policies of the network as a whole has additional helpful links. The entire ["Off-topic Use"](http://freenode.net/policy.shtml) section should explain the rest, but to quote some of the most relevant parts: > ***We do NOT tolerate discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, gender, sexual preference or other lifestyle choices*** and run with a zero-tolerance policy for libel and defamation. So really, Reddit's hands are tied on this particular issue. Maybe we can discuss enforcement of this measure (the mods don't exactly feel great about the current implementation, but it's a reaction to complaints about fairness and we made a decision), but we *have* to act on these specific problems swiftly and decisively, otherwise we'd be violating freenode policy and could lose our channel all-together. Furthermore, as I've already said in other comments, there is no downvote feature in #reddit and its related channels, so some form of moderation is necessary. It's not that Reddit and #reddit are different in that one is moderated and the other isn't, it's just that Reddit outsources the moderation to its users and a few others, whereas #reddit just has a few others. One last thing, and this is a personal note, but Reddit isn't one person or one set of ideas. Just because Reddit has people that advocate for "free speech" doesn't really mean anything when it comes to #reddit. Besides, free speech doesn't exist *anywhere*, so it's a little absurd to expect it to exist in #reddit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 20:40 Fine, filter speech. Ban over words. It's cool. I'm done. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2011-02-18 20:50 Let me know if there's anything else you need help understanding. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-18 21:40 Will do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- otterdam · 2011-02-21 02:23 I brought that exact issue up when the enforcement of such bans was being discussed. Even the example was the same. (But obviously you saw the results of attempting such a discussion.) It's not going to change any time soon because these rules are in place to stem 4chan-esque conversation, and that kind of user is not going away either. The side effect is it pisses off those wanting to discuss controversial issues, which is IMO where a significant chunk of #reddit's value came from. But this is a reflection of what a majority of the new moderation team want from the channel, with a dollop of enforcing freenode policy beyond the spirit of the rules. KeyserSosa is gone and it's too bad. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lechero · 2011-02-21 03:23 I've opped several irc channels and modded some forums (still do both to a capacity). And the one thing they all had/have in common was/is almost zero censorship, other than obvious cases of spamming or harassment or overbearing trolling. I guess I'm just spoiled. I realize that #reddit is a lot bigger than any channel I've ever opped, so maybe I don't fully understand the logistics involved. But I didn't really see much bad behavior in the room. It could easily be moderated by a couple human ops being present at any given time. And it wouldn't be hard to recruit a few earnest, willing volunteers to do just that. The bot just seems like the easy way out. And those in power, or at least diminoten, behave like bureaucrats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- otterdam · 2011-02-21 04:37 I'm an op but not really active anymore, basically due to shit like that. Setting rules doesn't work when the people on both sides of the power balance are pedants, because in the search for developing a rule with one interpretation you end up with arbitrary idiotic rules, plus the need to enforce said idiocy consistently among everyone to maintain the illusion of fairness. And the channel has to be nannied at every hour of the day, or so you would think - hence the bot. You could just kickban the aggressive trolls when you see trouble brewing, like any sane person, but some of them figured out that if you whine enough to another op ("I never broke a specific rule!") you'll get unbanned eventually. Or are given second, third, fourth chances. As if it will prove something, or as if we owe them such forgiveness. I didn't sign up to play capture and release, so now I don't play at all.