Upgrading to 14.0. How is you experience? reddit / freebsd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PkHolm · 2023-12-26 02:14 14.0 comes some drastic changes: IMHO notable are are - *The default mail transport agent (MTA) is now the Dragonfly Mail Agent (dma(8)) rather than sendmail(8).* End of the era. :-( - *The portsnap(8) utility has been removed.* Getting ports via a git sounds bit wasteful. And official documentation does not mention "shallow" clone. - *One True Awk (awk(1)) has been updated to 20210727* - things may break - *OpenSSL has been upgraded to version 3.0.12. This is a major upgrade from version 1.1.1, which has reached its end of life.* - *The default speed for serial communication in boot loaders, kernel, and userland is now 115200 bps* - Why? Why create headache for no gain? How was your experience with upgrading? It will be lot of fun for me especially around MTA change. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sp0rk173 · 2023-12-26 02:25 Extremely more responsive than 13, and an easy upgrade path. Seems like they made good decisions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- void64 · 2023-12-26 02:49 I for one am glad sendmail is gone. Its not really needed in base and DMA is really light weight. Git over portsnap is also a good move. Portsnap left a lot of db bloat files around to basically do what you can with git. Just clone a depth of 1 and ff-only… Easy enough. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- the_humeister · 2023-12-26 03:18 No issues ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DimestoreProstitute · 2023-12-26 03:20 >The default speed for serial communication in boot loaders, kernel, and userland is now 115200 bps - Why? Why create headache for no gain? Not having to debug online at 9600 is a wonderful gain ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mmm-harder · 2023-12-26 04:15 Portsnap is still available in latest, still works fine, just used it a few days ago on 14.0R-p4. Git is not a big deal at all, works perfectly fine for ports (less headache than svn and cvs), also that's nothing new at this time. OpenSSL3 is great, better performance, no complaints. If you don't consider 9600 baud vs 115200 to be less headache without any gain, then you clearly don't do much over RS232 using lots of concurrent panes of tmux or screen generating traffic; but if you don't care then why pick that out of the list of changes just to complain about? The rest of the changes are quite welcome. Performance is notably higher, especially kernel specific changes to network and io paths. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ottdmk · 2023-12-26 04:21 I had some odd problems, but they basically seem resolved. I've been using net/gitup to keep my ports tree updated. So far so good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- darkempath · 2023-12-26 04:36 I haven't upgraded yet. There's always a few bugs and I'm happy for others to experience them so I don't (e.g. the ZFS data loss bug). But I do have an opinion of your points (the ones I knew about, anyway!) >The default mail transport agent (MTA) is now the Dragonfly Mail Agent (dma(8)) rather than sendmail(8). End of the era. :-( I think this is great. It ***is*** the end of an era, and I'm fine to take off my hat and pour one out for Sendmail. But Sendmail has passed on, it is no more, it has ceased to be, it's expired and gone to meet its maker. Sendmail is a stiff, bereft of life, it rests in peace, it has kicked the bucket, it has shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. When I started using FreeBSD back in 2004, I used Sendmail when I set up my first mail server, ***and it sucked!*** It wasn't long before I ditched it and installed postfix. I probably won't ever use the Dragon Mail Agent, but I'm glad the base has moved on from a default MTA that was obsolete decades ago. I think that's a great move for my favourite Unix. I'm very glad they finally turned off the life support so we can respectfully bury Sendmail. >The portsnap(8) utility has been removed. Getting ports via a git sounds bit wasteful. And official documentation does not mention "shallow" clone. I'm not sure how I feel about this yet. I'm sure this decision was made for good reason, I just don't know what that reason is yet. When I started using FreeBSD, I'd upgrade the ports tree using *cvsup.* My understanding was the move away from cvs was hindered by bureaucracy and arguments over what we should move to. One core dev wrote all the changes and pushed it through and we moved from cvs to svn. I haven't heard about any arguments or in-fighting about the move to git, so I'm hoping the core devs all think this is a step up (regardless whether they would have personally chosen something different). And honestly, I'm going to install git, update my house- keeping scripts, and not think about it again. >One True Awk (awk(1)) has been updated to 20210727 - things may break I wasn't aware of this one, and I do use awk in some of my scripts. If things break, I'll spend some time fixing things, then move on and not think about it again. We can't let legacy implementations hold us back forever. >OpenSSL has been upgraded to version 3.0.12. This is a major upgrade from version 1.1.1, which has reached its end of life. I've already installed OpenSSL3 via ports so this is no big deal for me. I had some teething issues during the move, but that's all sorted now. I don't foresee any further problems. >The default speed for serial communication in boot loaders, kernel, and userland is now 115200 bps - Why? Why create headache for no gain? I have no idea what this is, and I don't think it will impact me! In what way will it cause you headaches? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- whattteva · 2023-12-26 05:32 The only one that gave me problems was the openssl as Jellyfin and a bunch of the -arr suite still uses openssl111. No big deal as I have them installed in separate jails anyway. So I just kept the jails at 13.2-RELEASE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- joemc04 · 2023-12-26 05:52 Thanks for mentioning. Jellyfin big part of my home FreeBSD install. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PkHolm · 2023-12-26 06:15 If they can have always at 115200 it would be fine. But boot process started at 9600 and than switching 115200. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PkHolm · 2023-12-26 06:20 Is it possible to run Jellyfin natively on FreeBDS now? Years ago I tried to patch requred version of .NET to run Jellyfin. Got pretty far but ultimately failed. End up just running it in linux vm. How do you run it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PkHolm · 2023-12-26 06:23 Somehow I give people impression that I love sendmail. Nope, I had it enough of it back in 199X. But I still feel nostalgic. I use serial ports as "KVM" for all my hosts. And in new setup speed will change from 9600 in initial boot to 115200 from boot loader and up. Imho it is not a good idea. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mosttrash · 2023-12-26 06:57 Having trouble with sh's history - C-d is way to firmly ingrained (and seems to need a few extra presses to give completion options) No doubt this is just a learning thing - but I do miss C-d. not really a 14 issue, only that the default shell changed ¿csh to sh? Also, getting kernel panics after 5 to 10 minutes in xorg (amd NAVI) - this is a deal breaker for 14 in our circus. We are keeping our machines on 13 - with a 14 machine testing for panic fixes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 06:57 > sendmail is gone. Its not really needed in base It has not gone, it's in base. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 07:00 > Jellyfin natively FreshPorts is our friend. [multimedia/jellyfin](https://www.freshports.org/multimedia/jellyfin/) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 07:01 For readers' convenience: - release notes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 07:05 > boot process started at 9600 and than switching 115200. Release notes refer to `4722ceb7d53e76507c76e053caab6b6f7b24ecef`. [Use 115200 bps by default for serial communication · freebsd/freebsd- src@4722ceb](https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd- src/commit/4722ceb7d53e76507c76e053caab6b6f7b24ecef) Please note the change to UPDATING. Also the linked review: - [⚙ D36295 \[RFC} Use 115200 bps by default for serial ports](https://reviews.freebsd.org/D36295) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 07:10 > official documentation does not mention "shallow" clone Official documentation does state this, albeit not in the context of ports: >> When you need to use shallow Git clones, you cannot compare n-numbers reliably as the `git rev-list` command counts all the revisions in the repository which a shallow clone omits. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 07:32 > ff-only From [git-pull\(1\)](https://man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=git- pull&sektion=1&manpath=freebsd-ports) for `--ff-only`: >> Only update to the new history if there is no divergent local history. This is the default when no method for reconciling divergent histories is provided (via the --rebase=* flags). Does that mean that if I run `git pull` alone, it's *fast-forward only*? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 07:34 > default shell changed ¿csh to sh? For the root user. Please see the release notes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 07:36 > Also, getting kernel panics Do you have a link to a bug report? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- darkempath · 2023-12-26 07:41 >Somehow I give people impression that I love sendmail. Nope, I had it enough of it back in 199X. But I still feel nostalgic. Ha! Fair enough. I feel sad it's the end of an era too, but yeah, the base was well and truly overdue for a sendmail replacement. But after looking up what DMA can do, it feels like an odd choice of replacement. It's like we've ditched a powerful and feature complete dinosaur for an underpowered rodent. I wasn't using sendmail anyway, so it's no big deal if I skip the limited DMA. I'd expect DMA to evolve and gain features over time, but I would have thought they'd wait until it was a little more robust. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 07:44 > from 9600 in initial boot to 115200 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PkHolm · 2023-12-26 07:51 for what sendmail usually does in average system( aka forwarding mails for root to some remote host ) DMA is adequate substitution. If there are need full featured DMA it can be installed from port. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mosttrash · 2023-12-26 07:56 Yes, this change wasn't a surprise. I changed my daily account shell to match the new default root shell to be better prepared when I'm unexpectedly fixing something as root. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Xzenor · 2023-12-26 07:57 >one am glad sendmail is gone Is it though? I did a few clean installs and it seems to still be there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mosttrash · 2023-12-26 08:05 I haven't been able to provide steps to reproduce the panics. All I have so far is that it happens a few minutes into an active session. It has run all night as long as it doesn't have to interact with people (I think I know how it feels). If I find a reliable way to force a panic, I'll send in a bug report ---------------------------------------------------------------------- darkempath · 2023-12-26 09:06 As a follow up to my previous comment, I've installed git, cloned the ports tree, and updated my housekeeping script with the following comment and line: #cvsup -g -L 2 ports-supfile # Edited to switch from cvsup to portsnap 08-05-2010 #portsnap auto # Edited to switch from portsnap to git 26-12-2023 git -C /usr/ports pull ...and it's working flawlessly. Not a hiccup. Once again, the Handbook documentation is perfect. Thanks, devs! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 10:13 > happens a few minutes into an active session. Some Navi-related panics at , nothing that matches your case (without knowing the nature of activity). If you're more interested in having 14.0-RELEASE than in reproducing a panic, you could try: 1. uninstall drm-515-kmod and drm-kmod 2. install drm-510-kmod. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _Lee_B_ · 2023-12-26 10:31 Git is great, but pijul would be a better move. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mosttrash · 2023-12-26 11:21 510 is solid for F13 & amd Navi 10, but wouldn't run X on amd Navi 11. Worth a try for 510 on F14 & Navi 11. Thanks for the suggestion Graham. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mr_whats_it_to_you · 2023-12-26 13:03 Sendmail is just not the default anymore. But the release notes states that you can happily switch back to sendmail if you want to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wasthatanecco · 2023-12-26 13:32 So if I'm understanding this correctly, the serial port speed will be what it's set to in the BIOS for the BIOS portion of the boot process, then change to 9600 for the boot loader portion, then change to 115200 for the remainder of the session? Won't this cause a person to miss part of the boot process without renegotiating the protocol multiple times, during relatively brief intervals? It seems like this would cause issues for embedded systems with no video interface. I have a nas4free system, for instance, that only has a serial interface. I can't upgrade it anyways due to memory limitations, but I could see this being an issue for similar systems. Seems like it would be best to have a consistent speed for the duration of the OS portion of the serial console. I can't read/type much faster than 9600 bps, myself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- void64 · 2023-12-26 13:36 It should be and just moved to ports. But probably left in 14 as to not break current installs (deprecated). Likely to be removed in 15, which it should be. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- void64 · 2023-12-26 13:37 Likely a deprecation move before its fully removed in the future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- darkempath · 2023-12-26 13:41 >Is it possible to run Jellyfin natively on FreeBDS now? >** >How do you run it? [It's in ports!](https://ports.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cgi?query=jellyfi n&stype=all&sektion=all) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- void64 · 2023-12-26 13:48 You’re likely not making local commits or changes to your repo for ports. It’s just good practice to use —ff-only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 13:57 Thanks, I'm already in the habit of using the option, I'm curious about what happens when I run _without_ an option. (I have difficulty understanding the manual page.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- whattteva · 2023-12-26 14:23 It has been possible for a while. I have been doing it for a few years. But before you had to do it from [someone's git repo](https://github.com/Thefrank/jellyfin-server-freebsd). Now, you can do it straight from ports. I think it got added to ports like 6 months ago. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 14:35 Over to: - https://old.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/15cnf2u/-/kezmz03/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 14:39 > just moved to ports. Not a recent move. https://old.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/15cnf2u/-/kezmz03/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 15:02 I frequently use the `history` command, which, unfortunately, is not a feature of [sh\(1\)](https://man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=sh&sekt ion=1&manpath=freebsd-release). I can't see myself switching to sh. [builtin\(1\)](https://man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=builtin&sekti on=1&manpath=freebsd-release) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- erreur · 2023-12-26 17:15 Without that fast forward only option git will automatically try to create a merge commit to merge your local committed changes in the branch with the remote branch if they have diverged, and if there are no conflicts it will open your editor and ask to confirm the merge commit message. Nothing permanent. If you don’t want the merge commit you can just git reset —hard HEAD and then `git pull REMOTE BRANCH —rebase` to have it rebase your local changes onto the remote branch instead. The only thing the fast forward only option does is prevent it from trying to make the merge commit. Instead it will just give you an error that fast forward is not possible. So I don’t really think it is important to use that fast forward only option personally. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- johnklos · 2023-12-26 17:15 I grew up on `sendmail`, so when NetBSD removed it and switched instead to `postfix`, I just installed `sendmail` from pkgsrc. That's one of the nice things about the BSDs - they don't make it difficult to opt-out of these changes. We collectively don't have much say about OpenSSL, but changing the baud rate is straightforward. Choosing a shallow clone shouldn't be hard. Perhaps you can suggest an update to the documentation to include how to do that :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- erreur · 2023-12-26 17:19 You can always still see the speed to 9600 baud in loader.conf. The change is just to change the default. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Xzenor · 2023-12-26 17:44 You're probably right but I have not been able to find information about it. The files are still there.. I also can't find a dma daemon which is odd, or I simply misunderstand how it's supposed to work.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dkh · 2023-12-26 18:16 All of mine went smoothly. Boot is certainly much faster. Only potential gotcha is not watching what you do with zfs if you are using it for root. If you do a zpool update and neglect to update the loader before rebooting you will have some more work to do. No real excuse for that happening since the zpool update process warns you about it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- void64 · 2023-12-26 18:18 I don’t think DMA runs as a daemon. It runs on demand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Local_Goose_4998 · 2023-12-26 18:54 How is you experience? - My experience is.... kernel panic and reboot( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CSI_Tech_Dept · 2023-12-26 19:25 Yes, one has to update /etc/mail/mailer.conf to get sendmail working again. Although if DMA is now the default, I think we will soon (FreeBSD 15?) will need to install it from ports. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-26 20:55 > kernel panic Do you have a bug report number? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mirror176 · 2023-12-26 23:41 Just make sure you remember to update your <14 system to whatever its most recent patch revision is as it is also vulnerable to the zfs data loss bug; not sure if <13 got patches but my following of the bug was to not expect it to be bug free though it was even less likely, but still possible, to hit that bug. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mirror176 · 2023-12-26 23:46 Maybe making a 'how to use git' section of documentation that other documents can point to relevant sections of instead of recreating what they think is needed in other areas; less copies to maintain+update and users can feel more comfortable expanding their knowledge as desired. It is a tradeoff as it is nice to have simple working steps present to get through the section but the equivalent of manpage's "see also" for these things is nice in that case. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mirror176 · 2023-12-26 23:55 I haven't updated yet but I did run the installer and get a fresh system going which I am still collecting notes on but found both documentation and installer bugs along the way. After a little bit more work, I need to start looking at what may be known issues vs needs issues created. I moved from sendmail to couriermta back in my early days (started with FreeBSD back in 2004) and never moved back after courier has been broken due to lack of updates (needs to be updated or removed from ports); not being allowed to run a mail server means I cannot guarantee I learn to do it right until I rent a system outside my ISP and I only previously did it to run dspam which was more effective than me skimming messages for spam/nonspam once trained. A main thing I planned to remember to do was migrate /usr/home to /home for consistency with a new install. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PkHolm · 2023-12-27 00:12 exactly. Need to change it before upgrade. It just not necessary change IMHO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Xzenor · 2023-12-27 00:32 How? I can't find it in inetd.conf ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mosttrash · 2023-12-27 02:37 agreed, the history, especially history completion on partial command line text, is sorely missed is sh. Once comfortable with sh, I'll revert to csh for my non-root shell. And, I guess there's little stopping us changing root's shell. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- darkempath · 2023-12-27 03:29 >not sure if <13 got patches It did! And I've already patched :-) My BSD box isn't for business or anything, but it does run my cloud (Nextcloud), mail, the home's DNS and DHCP, and it feeds my HTPC. I'm hesitant to upgrade to 14 while it's being regularly used by people over the Chrissy/new years break. Next week I'll upgrade. There'll be fewer people using it, and I'm back at work but working from home. But thanks for the warning! I learned my lesson when I upgraded to 10 and the change to pkgng broke everything (I didn't follow the instructions properly). I now thoroughly prepare before I upgrade. For example, I've already switched from portsnap to git for updating my ports tree, and it's working well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LordInateur · 2023-12-27 03:43 For the most part, the actual 14.0 experience seems to be a good improvement. But I would have preferred the actual upgrades themselves to be a little cleaner--unless I just missed it, I've not found a good way of fixing conflicts that doesn't require me to make the change in the middle of the workflow. As in, it'd be nice to pause \`freebsd- update\` so I could fix things instead of being forced to fix things right then and there. Ran into a lot of this with merge conflicts resulting from the change from csh to sh on the root user. Actually, side note on all of that. I use poudriere to manage packages --does anyone know if it can be used to manage base installations as well in a similar fashion? Something like that would make it easier to upgrade fleets. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TribladeSlice · 2023-12-27 04:05 I am finally able to main FreeBSD because of the iwlwifi upgrades, so I for one am estatic about it. Works great so far, though I’ve only been doing tty stuff getting ready for the past week or so while I do stuff like get my build of X going and package management stuff. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ladyrdd · 2023-12-27 13:38 After upgrade from 13.2 to 14.0, and also updated zpool... can't boot now...still try to find a solution... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-27 13:51 > I guess there's little stopping us changing root's shell. *Nothing* to stop us :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-27 13:54 > … nice to pause `freebsd-update` so I could fix things instead of being forced to fix things right then and there. … Not a *pause*, but you can: 1. Control-C 2. edit, to prevent conflicts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-27 13:55 > … poudriere to manage packages--does anyone know if it can be used to manage base installations as well in a similar fashion? … Yes, please begin at . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-27 14:02 +1 The [Git mini primer](https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/committers- guide/#git-mini-primer) exists, however it's developer/commit- oriented. needs some love. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-27 16:53 > also updated zpool freebsd-update(8) does not automatically update things such as the EFI system partition. If you need help with this, please make a separate post (or check existing posts from recent weeks, you'll probably find at least one other person who was in the same situation). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-27 16:56 > not sure if was for *all supported versions* of FreeBSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LordInateur · 2023-12-27 17:04 Yeah using `CTRL + C` this has always resulted in `freebsd-update` starting from the beginning of the workflow, meaning that any merge conflicts that I fixed had to be redone when restarting the process. Or at least, that's what it did for the 14.0 upgrade. I basically had to resort to using the editor in the middle of the workflow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-27 17:05 > … sendmail … (FreeBSD 15?) will need to install it from ports https://old.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/15cnf2u/-/kezmz03/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-27 17:10 I mean, edit your original file before beginning the upgrade to 14.0⋯. The start of `/etc/group`, for example, should be something like what's shown in the second code block at . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CSI_Tech_Dept · 2023-12-27 17:25 I dunno, to me it feels like a similar situation with named vs unbound. Unbound does not provide the same functionality as named, yet after default switched to unbound, named was removed from the base. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PkHolm · 2023-12-27 21:38 is there list of ZFS features supported by loader? I'm afraid to upgrade root pool in fear make it unbootable. I can dig it out of source code, but it should be better way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-12-28 02:28 Simply: do not upgrade the pool until after you have updated the loader. No need for source code. *installation* includes advice for EFI-based systems. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bsdimp- · 2023-12-28 07:07 Only awk thing that changed is that hex numbers 0xblah are no longer treated as numbers in some contexts where they used to be.