Why are so many BBS systems openly hostile to users? reddit / bbs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HAPPY_FUN_PERSON · 2023-02-25 09:47 Maybe I just don't get it. Maybe I've been away too long. Calling a board tends to involve going through the effort of creating an entry in the phonebook of the client software I'm using. Recording the credentials in my password wallet as a backup. More than half the boards I connect to then drain my willpower to use them through a series of practices I do not understand. **First,** the wildly intrusive questionnaire in the application process. I'm being asked for my birthday, my personal phone number, my home address, my gender -- for whatever reason, sysops want to know what genitals I have. It is really important to sysops to know if I have a penis or a vagina. For some reason. I swear, it is only for failing to think about it that they forget to ask if I am circumcised, what my bank account number, my religion, and my browser history. It's over-the-top and egregious. Imagine someone who hears about BBSing and wants to check it out and runs into this nearly demented obsession with collecting personal information on prospective users. Why would anyone willingly provide this much info? The thing about this is I've already invested a fair amount of time just to get to this point and now I'm going through the process of deciding whether or not the sunk cost just means I should plow ahead and answer these questions, or just hang up. What is with this? No other Internet service is like this. Only BBSes want all of this intrusive personal information. A lot of this isn't even thought out. I'll be specifically asked a question like, "Where did you hear about this board?" and I'll type it in, only to be confronted with the "send a message to the sysop" thing most new user applications have, where I will be asked to provide *the same information again.* You can see why I get the sense they're really trying to discourage me from continuing, like they only want people with a special kind of endurance to make it to the main menu. **Second** - what the hell is with the stingy timeouts? I get up to piss and I come back and I'm either being harassed with the ARE YOU REALLY THERE message or the boards are dropping me after two or three minutes of inactivity. This is on boards with barely any traffic as it is. Again -- no other Internet service is like this. I get dropped like that, I'm never calling back. I get that it has to time out at some point but why are sysops applying this kind of pressure? When BBSes had one phone line, I could understand, but why do this? This is a major turn off. It's just stressful. Like oh hell, a family member just wrote me an e-mail, let me read th....SHIT, KICKED OFF! **Third** - For the love of all that is holy, I do not need to see FIFTY SCREENS OF SPEW every time I log in. Some boards have a quick login feature, but others don't, and a bunch insist on throwing that old, shitty SYNC title ANSI at me every time I log in (of all screens, I hate this useless one the most - I am sick of looking at it already). I know it's a Synchronet board, man. Before I get to that screen I've been reminded of that fifty times because half of Synchronet boards out there never mod a single screen or menu. Man that is just dispiriting, that people leave that there. Press key to continue. Press key to continue. Press key to continue. Press key to continue. Every damn time I log in. In most cases, those screens don't even change. I'm just being expected to watch the 8 page scroll of some kind of ANSI demon *every single time I log in.* For *years on end.* **Fourth** - Excessive weeding. Like if I don't dedicate my waking existence to your board, my account is going to be shitcanned. I *really* don't get this. So it's been a few months, so what. Please don't do that. **Fifth** - I really don't need to be interrogated and harrassed when I go to log off. Presumably, sysops want me to log off in an orderly fashion by pressing whatever the logoff key is and waiting for the BBS tp drop the connection But when I try to do this, some boards just don't want to let me go. I really don't want to just do whatever the modern equivalent is of dropping carrier, but...if I wanted to leave feedback, I would have done it at the main menu. And if that was the only question, I could live with it, but a few boards push me to change an automessage or leave a message for the next caller, and some drop me into a script or door where they want me to spin a wheel or some shit. I don't object to having these things as options (like, as doors), but it's a serious drag when I just want to log off. It's like someone jumping in a doorway and blocking your exit, or those screens on websites that keep saying, "Are you super seriously sure you want to cancel? Are you SURE? We have OTHER PRICING PLANS. You don't really want to cancel, do you?" **Sixth** - Why are there one billion BBS networks with redundant echoes, with most of these networks completely devoid of any activity but endless autoposts of BBS ads, mailer statistics, and so on? It is like people are copying and pasting entire networks, echo for echo. It's not that I disapprove of the idea that people can run their own networks, so much as it balkanizes conversations across multiple indistinguishable, low-traffic networks all with the same subject areas. Do we really need 20 separate echoes about Python? I would think if you were going to run a network, you'd want to offer some unique content, or some novel moderation policies, or something to differentiate it from others. The concept of calling boards seems fun, but the execution...a whole lot of people are running boards which are simply broken. I log in and it's error after error. I get that this is a fact of life and it will happen periodically but a lot of people don't ever apparently log into their own boards. Particularly infuriating is when the new user application process shits the bed -- at the end of one of those really long, questionnaire-intensive application processes. I've just wasted 20 minutes providing DNA, blood, semen samples, the passwords to my retirement accounts, or whatever, and then, after doing all of that, the account won't even create. It is probably a good idea for sysops to periodically test out their new user application processes *if they want new users*, which I am not sure that they do. Lastly, if you're going to offer a Guest login option, at least let the guest *see something* that speaks to the character of your board. I like to see what networks a board carries, and I get why you'd limit that to read only (I would), but a lot of boards show you a main menu with three options and the local subs. Ha ha, sucker, you didn't tell me about your genitals, so you can read my system bulletins, and look at the digital blue Synchronet main menu screen! Why not just disable the guest option entirely if you're going to waste people's time like that? I don't like to complain but I spent my Friday night hoping to have fun with this and hours later, I'm just kind of appalled. I mean, seriously, damn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- aleigh9812 · 2023-02-25 09:55 I was around in the 80s and 90s and this is how they BBS' were then, so if nothing else they are reflecting the time they came from. Back then, people were a lot more interested in making friends, it wasn't just some anonymous stew of people like reddit. If you were the sysop, you probably knew and talked to most all the people on the board. Hence the signup process. For asking about gender, that's a pretty basic questionnaire item. A lot of boards back when this was a thriving thing had womens only groups because although uncommon believe it or not women got on boards. Your answer would limit if you could get into those areas. And no, they probably don't really care about new users. Most of these things are just curiosities now, relics, and people are preserving history, not trying to create some new ecosystem that is going to overthrow the Internet with its retro charm. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bigfug · 2023-02-25 10:24 I've been thinking much the same, but from the SysOp side. I'm setting up a BBS using Zeus BBS, which I developed with my friend Nick back in the 1990s. When I started logging on to the example configuration, I ran into exactly what you are describing. As previously stated, yes, this was all pretty normal. We didn't start out asking for all this info: it was often added a bit at a time as running these systems are subject to endless tweaking. Same for the logoff procedure. I was thinking about this in light of contemporary standards of data privacy, and it's shocking how we used to ask for gender (only male/female/unknown), home address, phone numbers, birthday, and more. We didn't store this information securely either. Even passwords were stored unencrypted. Your post is actually very useful as I'm cutting out all that stuff from my registration, logon, and logoff routines. I only have a couple of local message boards that have specific focus, no files (as yet), and a few doors that I really enjoyed playing back in the day that I'm not sure how available they are now. I still believe each BBS should be unique and tailored to the interests of the SysOp(s). More so now than ever. Sharing echos was useful when it cost more to call non-local boards, but it makes less sense now unless the SysOp is actively participating in them, or they match the theme. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I'm going to go adjust my inactivity timeouts... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Convecticus · 2023-02-25 10:53 I know the post was a bit of a rant, and you make good points -- certainly a lot of these could be used to make the BBSing experience better, if/when sysops would like to put the work in. That said, I'll take a stab at responding to each of the questions anyway. >First, the wildly intrusive questionnaire in the application process. This is because it was the default way back when. Even with my board, where I really do mean to eventually get rid of most of it, and directly say, "information is voluntary", I just haven't gotten around to it, as it takes additional effort. But most of the fields can be skipped, anyway. As for gender in particular, there might be cases where language is changed based off of it. You're welcome to lie about that, too. > Second - what the hell is with the stingy timeouts? Again, because it was the default way back when. When the average BBS had exactly one line, and was getting 20+ calls a day, someone sitting there doing nothing was taking board time away from other people. But, yeah, absolutely, no reason to have even remotely stingy limits, these days. > Third - For the love of all that is holy, I do not need to see FIFTY SCREENS OF SPEW every time I log in ...yeah. I think sysops go, "oooh, shiny!" and add everything possible. I limit it (honestly should probably add a bit more, for board updates), but I also deliberately made ANSI menus with options missing / hidden options, precisely because there's already too much clutter. > Fourth - Excessive weeding. I'm guessing this is also a 1990's default thing. Well, other than that someone wants a list of active users, rather than a giant list of people who called the BBS once. >Fifth - I really don't need to be interrogated and harrassed when I go to log off. This is what the /G option is for. I think most BBSs have that. But, yeah, I think this is another, "ooh, shiny!" situation. And possibly that BBS software includes it as an option, oftentimes a default one. >Sixth - Why are there one billion BBS networks with redundant echoes This is because everyone gets excited at starting a BBS again (or, rarely, for the first time), and want to add everything of interest, and have all the networks. Then, after doing that, people want to figure out how to run a network, so start making another one. Which, obviously, was entirely unneeded. It's pretty much guaranteed that it'd be better, content-wise, to contribute to another network over starting one's own. But even on BBSs, when someone talks about starting a new network, people basically go, "...and why are you doing that? There isn't a need for another dead network". >The concept of calling boards seems fun, but the execution. I think, back in the 80s and 90s, there were _also_ a ton of terrible boards, because most people would take the defaults and not put the work in. But that's also the thing -- having a _mediocre_ BBS (which, realistically, mine probably is) takes a _ton_ of work to get into reasonable shape. And you _aren't_ going to get callers. Yeah, you'll get some, but it's not like, "I put together an impressive BBS, spent 600 hours working on things, and think it'll be a nice experience" will result in consistently getting 20 calls a day. At this point, a BBS _should_ be for making a sysop's BBS experience be what they'd like it to be. I use mine to chat with other people over FSXnet, join in the weekly MRC meatup, and see what holiday it is. If people call, I'll happily chat with them, and follow through on any requests they might have. But spending lots of hours on a consistent basis to get it where it should be? It'll be hard to justify the time, so mostly I'd just end up doing it if it were somewhat fun. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- opicron · 2023-02-25 12:11 Funny, i can relate I made it my mission to at least have a easy account creation. Want to check it out and give some feedback? Bbs.theforze.eu :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Practical_Cartoonist · 2023-02-25 12:47 I agree totally. The answer to questions 1, 2, 5 and 6 is "because most sysops are lazy/busy/not really that into it and didn't change the defaults". BBS software was written back in the day to do stuff like that because it made some sense. Now it doesn't, but software and tutorials are still set up as if it did make sense. I'm guessing 90% of boards are someone with a free weekend who's just like "okay download synchronet, follow this tutorial, don't really know what that option does, does it work yet? Okay, randomly change some stuff around, okay it works! Good enough!". You keep saying "the sysop" when you should be saying "the BBS software by default and the sysop didn't know how to change the defaults". I guarantee you exactly 0 sysops have ever deliberately set up a survey asking for your home address: that's 100% on whatever BBS software they happened to get (kind of) working. Numbers 3 and 4, I don't know. I guess micromanaging and changing the art is a lot easier than improving the board. But there are some really good sysops out there who put in the time to get rid of all that shit. They're worth the search. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dialsoft · 2023-02-25 13:07 I know what you mean. Alot of it is old software and it just has those signup systems. Go to [ddial.com](https://ddial.com) and see some different and progressive change BBS systems. [www.magviz.ca](https://www.magviz.ca) is one i frequent and I am not an owner. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- auric0m · 2023-02-25 15:13 BBS are generally setup to emulate how it was done in the 90’s. it was a very different time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PaulLee420 · 2023-02-25 15:20 I think yer not finding the right bbSes. I can think of 3, off hand, that mostly respect the things you complained about; 2o fOr beeRS @ [20ForBeers.com:1337](https://20ForBeers.com:1337) Quantum Wormhole @ [bbs.erb.pw:23](https://bbs.erb.pw:23) The Bottomless Abyss @ [bbs.bottomlessabyss.net:2023](https://bbs.bottomlessabyss.net:2023) ​ Some of you other issues, like the FTN network complaint, are constraints of the technology. I want to carry zeroNet, arakNet, tqwNet and fsxNet because they all offer something I want to reline. sysOps can't control that. My suggestion? Only read your favorite/home bbSes local msg areas and fsxNet. That will give you the bulk of what you'd want to read in the bbSphere. For quick logoff, try '/G' or '/O'. On 2oFB, anyway, this hangs up. Now. Keep l00king, theres are many boards that have \[tried to\] addressed the issues yer complaining about - seems to me that you want a more- current bbS thats built for today, not for nostalgia. Cheers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nevarro · 2023-02-25 15:42 I agree with PaulLee420 here. You're probably not finding the right BBSes. There's an awful lot of BBSes out there and most of them are, sadly, set up stock (asking a ton of personal questions during signup, default short timeouts from dialup times, stock menus, etc.). Some old BBSes have limited configuration options, meaning you're kindof stuck with it. But, there are BBSes out there that don't have these issues, mine included. Most of your frustrations I agree with. Like, having to jump through hoops during the logout process I don't like at all. As such, I have configured my BBS not to do that. When the logout option is selected, it logs out immediately. It doesn't ask questions; it doesn't provide options. It just does what it says. When I pull up a board and start the signup process and it starts asking personal questions, I rarely complete signup. Not only am I not comfortable sharing personal information and don't want to enter fake info, but it's evidence the sysop hasn't spent time customizing their board to make it unique. Most if not all of the other items you are frustrated about can be configured by the sysop on modern systems. The good BBSes out there will really stand out from the rest. They're visually unique, engaging and often have a particular focus instead of trying to offer everything, which is overwhelming. Good luck! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- codefenix · 2023-02-25 15:55 First off, it's not hostility. Think about it like this: when you sign up for a BBS, you are asking permission to access someone else's *private* computer, therefore they have the right to ask you as many questions as they want about you before they *allow* you in. With that out of the way, it sounds like the BBSes you're checking out haven't been customized. By default, a lot of the questionnaire options you're describing are enabled, because, as everyone has told you so far in this thread, "that's how it used to be." However, today sysops have the option to toggle which questions get asked. Many sysops who have taken the time to customize their systems really *don't care* about your real name, gender, phone number, or anything else, and will usually disable those questions. Some will still require at least some sort of validation though, whether in the form of a feedback essay or a simple email validation process, and that's just to ensure you're a real person who is sincerely interested in joining the board and not some troll or a bot. The bulletins that get "spewed" can be worthwhile to read sometimes for system news, stats, and cool ANSI art, but I agree sometimes it can get out of hand. You'll sometimes see a "fast logon" option on some boards that will let you skip it. Users are offered that option starting with their 2nd login on my board, because I want newcomers to see certain info on their first login. Same thing with logoff. I agree some systems go too far with logoff routines, but a lot of systems will let you do a "fast logoff" so you don't have to watch any logoff stuff. The option should be right there on most main menus. As for the redundant FTNs, well, yeah, that's a whole other thing (and that redundancy exists with more than just FTNs). Some systems add FTNs to their board just for the sake of it, thinking that more=better. You don't have to participate in them, but they're there for the users that do. And that goes for everything else that's on the board. Curious what you're even wanting to get out of calling BBSes, with such a long list of things you dislike. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ItsLikeHerdingCats · 2023-02-25 17:36 Good points I had a large BBS in the 90’s and those questions for new users was stock. Actually I’m looking to revive my Wildcat BBS and I hadn’t given much thought to those questionnaires until I saw this posting. We do live in a very different time. Message Networks never really interested me. I liked carrying the fidonet file network, that was a great source for new downloads. But with so many boards in my area touting fidonet, rime net and whatever, I left that to them. I preferred being more about a rich file gallery and had multiple CD jukeboxes housing loads of stuff. I did have many of the popular door games and that was also very popular I too got turned off but multiple ads, announcements and things that made just getting to the menus more challenging. Same with the log off screen. Thanks for a thorough and thoughtful reply to his post ---------------------------------------------------------------------- redmax_ · 2023-02-25 18:23 Not that this is related but, folks that have used a classic BBS back when they were relevant will understand why certain things exist, there were technical limitations and underlying costs that dictated the flow. BBS systems were replaced by websites and is why early websites tried to mimic the user experience. You get/got email, you get a message board, news postings, downloads etc.. If you look at it at a high enough level, Facebook was nothing more than a web enabled BBS down to the flash games you could play. The modern web has changed what people expect from systems and most are expecting instant gratification because that is simply how things are. BBS systems never evolved the same way and as a result you get /rants/ like this that simply prove that "retro" isn't for everyone and yet, it seems interesting enough for some people to try. Funny thing is, I setup a BBS just to say I have one and gives me an excuse to create some ANSI art and do some programming. I never intended it to replace my website but, I have been exploring ideas on how to link the two together. Ultimately, the system will never amount to much aside from being an aspect of my Retro PC projects and a way to burn some time playing Operation Overkill. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nerdshowandtell · 2023-02-25 18:31 This. A lot of those signup questions are carry overs from the original bbs setup. The time outs for things were also in place to boot people so they didn't hog a precious telephone line being AFK. I was a sysop of a 20 line bbs back in the 90s and I hadn't thought about all these little unique things in years! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cjxmtn · 2023-02-25 18:35 This isn't new, I made the mistake of calling a sysop in LORD chat in the late 80s an asshole not realizing the person I was talking to was the sysop, who was objectively an asshole, and my house got wardialed for 3 days straight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HAPPY_FUN_PERSON · 2023-02-25 19:47 >First off, it's not hostility. Think about it like this: when you sign up for a BBS, you are asking permission to access someone else's private computer, therefore they have the right to ask you as many questions as they want about you before they allow you in. First of all, the question is not about the right to do this, but the appropriateness or reasonableness of it. Second of all, you can make this argument for *any computer service of any kind* running on personally owned or rented resources, and yet, in practice, none except BBSes ever do. Reddit doesn't, as the most obvious example. In my entire life, no one has asked me for my birthday or phone number to allow me to enter their *actual physical domicile.* They could; but they shouldn't. I'd be less wound up about this if BBSes posted - up front: these are the questions you'll be asked, and if you don't want to answer them, maybe we both shouldn't waste our time. I hate getting into the process and just groaning when they inevitably are grilling me to create a dossier which, I am repeatedly assured, will never be looked at and no one cares about. > By default, a lot of the questionnaire options you're describing are enabled, because, as everyone has told you so far in this thread, "that's how it used to be." However, today sysops have the option to toggle which questions get asked. There are plenty of boards which have at least some customization, for which there are still eight billion login questions. It is still possible people forget to mess with this, but they ought to if they don't seriously expect or need all of this information. > The bulletins that get "spewed" can be worthwhile to read sometimes for system news, stats, and cool ANSI art, but I agree sometimes it can get out of hand. I am mainly concerned about the endless static ANSI pages which do not provide any kind of information at all. Ideally, systems should have granular configuration for what a user sees when they log in, but that's probably a big ask. If it was a few screens, I wouldn't be complaining. But some boards are are borderline absurd. > Curious what you're even wanting to get out of calling BBSes, with such a long list of things you dislike. [*] Interesting user communities that don't descend into name-calling and open hostility. There are some Fidonet echoes which are unusable, and personalities that haunt that network who can pop into any conversation and completely derail a conversation by their toxic personalities. My skin isn't thin, but I draw a line when it gets to nothing but back and forth insults. I'm not talking about mere disagreement. [*] Interesting, non-stilted conversation. Because of the tolerance of certain toxic behaviors, there are certain networks online which are stiff, in fear of inviting in discord. [*] Stuff I can't get elsewhere. A culture specific to bulletin boards other than "old and crotchety," which is boring as fuck. I do not hate BBSes categorically. My rant and my complaint is more about the idea that once I find one I like, I'm unlikely to experiment with others just because of what an utter drag it is applying to be a new user. It shouldn't be that intrusive. The process shouldn't take that long. It shouldn't be so damn joyless. What I don't mind: > Some will still require at least some sort of validation though, whether in the form of a feedback essay or a simple email validation process, and that's just to ensure you're a real person who is sincerely interested in joining the board and not some troll or a bot. Don't mind this. Understand this. I don't mind useful screens at login, provided they are not excessive. I really like novel or interesting features. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HAPPY_FUN_PERSON · 2023-02-25 20:16 Very specifically, I am **not** talking about your board or the other two you mention. I've been on all three. They are the counter- examples of how to put up boards with actual oxygen atmospheres. More to my point, if you have accounts on those, there's not a lot of incentive to try other ones out, at least, unless you have a lot of time hacking your way through application jungles. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dmine45 · 2023-02-25 21:10 You're a guest on my computer. I sort of what to know who you are. I've removed most of those questions (that are carryovers from yesteryear) but for my purposes alone I'd like to know your real name, how old you are, and roughly where you live. To everyone else you can keep behind your BBS personna. For me as a Sysop I want to know. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- aleigh9812 · 2023-02-25 21:20 This conversation really got me in the wayback machine. So just to kind of add to that, I don't think that people called a lot of BBS's. For most people there might only be a couple in their area if they were so blessed, or a dozen (that were serious/good) or so if they were in a major city. If you were really unlucky you had to call LD to get a BBS. It's not like the Internet where someone (OP, apparently) might be trying to call dozens or hundreds of boards as if they were websites. It was not a buyers market - you got what you got in your local community. I would also say, OP, why not start your own board that meets your ambitions? If you build it, they will come. I'll call, if it has a modem. Back then too the sysops were kind of gods and did expect to talk to you. This was an era where a basic PC cost $5000 and was basically being dedicated for just this purpose. Modems were several hundred dollars. Phone lines were not cheap. These people were spending serious, serious cash with typically no monetization ambition, and as users we were rightly grateful for it. I donated to a lot of boards (which was a typical use of news, funding drives), and I understand why a few boards did monetize. Once you were donating and contributing, that was kind of "your place", you weren't shopping around for 30 other BBS' to call. Who had time for that anyways, these things were slow. Not just modem baud rate but the computers themselves were slow back then. So taking a couple of minutes to signup when there were only a few possibilities was not really a burden. It never seemed like it to me at the time, anyways. For further context too, the sysops had a big reason to prevent low-value users (non-contributing users, or leaches), which is that the only reason people called boards was talk to other people (this was before email for average people, right), play doors, or get files. The last thing you wanted was some user that was going to tie up a line for hours just taking up space or leaching files. 20 lines wow - but of course most boards only had 1 or 2 lines so this was a huge, huge issue. Obviously file ratios were one solution. But the questionnaire process in retrospect serves as a kind of CAPTCHA, right, are you alive, can you rub words together. A lot of boards would not let you login until your application had been approved, but today basically everyone has it set to auto approve. In terms of the news too, which OP also rants about, I think that people were more involved. Again it wasn't like the Internet where we just consume these anonymous websites and have no interest or stake in them. Back then people actually were interested in the news of the day and what was going on with the BBS and its user population. Get- together events, news about welcome and much-needed upgrades like more lines or better computers, people getting married, and other local happenings (almost all callers were in the same city/town right) were all really appreciated by most callers. A lot of boards ran contests and puzzles and things, weekly drawings. And yes most boards do have shortcuts to let you skip that or if they were well made they wouldn't show you the same news multiple times. There was a serious sense of community. OP - have you read the book Bowling Alone? I actually still call with a modem not telnet and most of the boards I have seen these days are pretty default. They were better made back then, the real ones. The stuff now is basically someone found a RA or wildcat zip and poked in a few values. Not to say there are not good boards out there today, just that it's a minority. Because again, I don't think someone starts a board today hoping to create a credible, vibrant community. They just want to experience a bit of the past, and I am glad for it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gkijgtrebklg · 2023-02-25 22:39 someone’s grumpy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- joshrenaud · 2023-02-25 22:47 Some of these issues are just remnants of the legacy of BBSing's original constraints. In the 1980s and 1990s, there was usually just one phone line, and not much disk space. The timeouts were meant to prevent one or two users from tying up the phone line all day and locking out other callers. The automated user pruning was meant to ensure there would be room for new users by dropping inactive users. At the peak of the hobby, a decent board had dozens or sometimes hundreds of users, and in a sense they all had to share that single system's resources: time, bandwidth, and disk space. The "application" process is another one of those legacies, a way for sysops to screen out people they didn't want on their board (for religious beliefs; or because they had illegal activity and didn't want cops; etc; etc) Obviously today's scene is nothing like the old days -- there are very few users. Most of the interest in BBSing is on the sysop side. People want to try building and hosting their own systems. And, yes, often they don't customize these defaults. Yes, these things can be frustrating in the modern day. Personally, I'm not bothered by all the things you mention. I love seeing the ANSI logon screens -- they're part of what makes calling a BBS a unique experience today. And boards without such screens seem very plain, indeed. But I agree about automated user pruning -- it drive me nuts, too. Especially on active boards with good sysops! It costs so little for a sysop to preserve accounts even if they are dormant for several months ... but that original mindset persists for many old sysops. Anyway, I guess my point is that this *is* a legacy hobby -- you have to go in expecting to navigate some of the hassles of the old days. And when you come across boards that have tried to modernize and improve, well, take note of them and keeping calling! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- RealGianath · 2023-02-26 00:07 Yeah from running my own BBSs in the early 90s we asked for way too much personal info and made no effort to keep it secure. But I would also have meetups with my users every month or so, we were like family at various times, except for that old guy that kept sexually harassing the women with sexy-sounding handles. But if I had to do it all over again, less is more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crkrjak2001 · 2023-02-26 00:38 Having run a couple of different boards back in the early '90's as well as having another board up again for 4 years now, I can tell you've never been a SysOp before. If you had you would understand that after the advent of the internet, BBS development took a nose dive. I'll try to answer your complaints. I can't answer for all the other SysOps out there, just for my own board. 1. Intrusive new user questionnaire. As I said, BBS development took a dive, so we are left using software that has barely been updated. Back then, most BBS callers were local neighborhood boards populated with teenagers, so having your address on file was important. You had to be careful who you were sharing what files with. Knowing what package was in your pants was important to keep females from getting offended by all the porn files that were available to download. Also, going into chat rooms, you could tell the boys from the girls by the color of their name. Would you flirt with someone online if you didn't know their sex? As far as the questions go about street addresses and other annoying questions, I specified in the beginning of the new user questionnaire on my board that I don't give two shits about any of that. I simply cannot remove the questions so I specified that users answer each Q. with a period mark or whatever they want. I don't care where you're from. I'm just glad you're calling. 2. Stingy time-outs. On my my BBS I have the limit set to 10 minutes of inactivity. If you need longer, I added a door called "Be Right Back". If you type BRB then you will stay connected to my board indefinitely, as the door makes it look like you are still active. So go make another cup of coffee and take a nap if you want. 3. ANSI screens. On my board, you see one random ANSI specifying the place you are calling, another specifying the type of software I'm using, and a third random game ANSI in the hopes of getting you to go play a game while you're online. I've got 150+ games available to play, so what is the harm in asking you to play one? That's it for the screens. I believe most people who call my board are looking for that 'old skool' experience. Imagine how dull it would look without them. 4. Excessive Weeding. If you don't call my board back within 6 months, why would I want to keep your info on file? Either you tried it and didn't like it or you just don't care enough to call back sooner. Most BBSes that I've called and connected to, the user info is stored much longer. Each to their own. Run a board and find out for yourself. 5. On my board, type "O!" to be disconnected immediately from ANY prompt. Try adding the exclamation mark to see if you can bypass the last minute screens. 6. Redundant message bases insures more responses to your questions. If you call a board that isn't networked in, you'll see that the message base is the area with the least amount of activity. Back in the day, my message bases were only populated by the local neighborhood and were quite active. Today, I'm fortunate if I get 4 callers a week. The place feels like a tomb if I login and there are no new messages. So why do I still have a board up for 4 years if no one calls? For myself, mainly. I don't charge anyone for anything like I used to. I couldn't make a dime if I tried. It's the nostalgic feeling that keeps my board running. Like a hobby I never grew out of. So call or don't call I don't give a shit. Would you criticize someone who built a massive train layout in their basement? Do you think they would give two shits what you had to say about it? It's a hobby, nothing more. And yes, I have the guest account disabled. ps. Let us know when you have a BBS up and running and I'll be sure to stop by. Maybe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Taclink · 2023-02-26 01:01 > In my entire life, no one has asked me for my birthday or phone number to allow me to enter their actual physical domicile. They could; but they shouldn't Age restricted file areas Age restricted board areas Paid access areas These are two things right off the bat that your birthdate (yes, you could lie about it, but the whole login process was a sniff test) would change. Especially if you had adult topics/media or paid areas, you could expect a call from the Sysop for a confirmation that yes, you are an adult. Other than region-specific areas (which used to be a thing as well), knowing how to contact a user would also come into play if a user name was being focused on with a brute force attack (especially if it succeded), as a sysop (like myself) would contact said user to give them a heads up to change their passwords on other sites and that their account was locked. You don't seem to understand how intimate BBS' were back in the day, and honestly still are today to some. Sysops back in the day dedicated thousands of dollars worth of hardware as well as continuing expense in phone lines (and long distance call expense to support FIDONET etc). Cost for curated CD repositories of neat programs. Cost for image repositories. All for the user to (typically) leech without much contribution in return. Now, there isn't as much but there is still expense involved (PC's still cost money, still costs money in power to run the server, Internet ain't free for the most part, some doors still cost money too) but there is arguably more threat in terms of viruses as well as just attack vectors to the system with having open ports. It's somewhat hard to take your post serious because applied to real life circumstances, you just got carded coming into a club and are pissed about it, and now are bitching about the drink selection, dance floor, decor, regulars.... to the bartender. Who is also the owner. Yeah, some places might be an Applebees franchise, but ya sorta could see that before you walked in the damn door. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HAPPY_FUN_PERSON · 2023-02-26 01:46 > You don't seem to understand how intimate BBS' were back in the day, and honestly still are today to some. Sysops back in the day dedicated thousands of dollars worth of hardware as well as continuing expense in phone lines (and long distance call expense to support FIDONET etc). Cost for curated CD repositories of neat programs. Cost for image repositories. All for the user to (typically) leech without much contribution in return. I ran a BBS (two of them) from 1987 to 1994. > It's somewhat hard to take your post serious because applied to real life circumstances, you just got carded coming into a club and are pissed about it, and now are bitching about the drink selection, dance floor, decor, regulars.... to the bartender. Who is also the owner. A BBS is nothing like a physical club. It is a server. Like a web server. Nor does this comparison make any sense because the person carding me is right at the door. I know immediately what I'm getting into. It's not a game of filling out a dossier like at a doctor's office. People can do what they want. I just wish they'd be up front about it before I waste my time. Like a guy carding at the door. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HAPPY_FUN_PERSON · 2023-02-26 01:48 > Having run a couple of different boards back in the early '90's as well as having another board up again for 4 years now, I can tell you've never been a SysOp before. If you had you would understand that after the advent of the internet, BBS development took a nose dive. I'll try to answer your complaints. I can't answer for all the other SysOps out there, just for my own board. I ran two BBSes, one from 1987 - 1990 on Image for the C=64, and then VirtualBBS from 1990-1994. People keep responding like I am new to BBSing. I was away for awhile. > If you had you would understand that after the advent of the internet, BBS development took a nose dive. I took my BBS down specifically because of this reason. > Knowing what package was in your pants was important to keep females from getting offended by all the porn files that were available to download. That's...not a normal problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sithra907 · 2023-02-26 02:06 You asked for an explanation, and now you're acting like it's belittling of you for someone to explain it. PS - User name definitely does NOT check out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mescronomicon · 2023-02-26 02:58 I hear your frustration but I was very entertained by your rant :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PaulLee420 · 2023-02-26 04:14 I think the OP just doesn't love the BBS platform - half of the complaints are just historical things that sysOps used to need; I used to voice validate all callers to 2o - some sysOps just leave all those questions because - thats a bbS... :P Furthermore, @ 2oFB anyway, I'm open to suggestions - lets make the bbS EXACTLY what the users want. If users msg me about issues, I have no problems changing system settings - or upgrading accounts - to make sure they don't 'want' for anything @ 2o. sysOps need co-sysOps and users w/ input. Help me build it... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mro1337_000 · 2023-02-26 04:59 is this what we have left for users? do you want to apply and login super quick so you can disconnect and never call again in a matter of seconds? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mro1337_000 · 2023-02-26 05:00 i call my signup questions the asshole filter. it got rid of all the bad users better than anything else. i never looked at the answers and it wasnt a lot of questions. it was a demo for a mod i made. it worked wonderfully ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mro1337_000 · 2023-02-26 05:01 pretty sure all those bbses have a signup process with questions and an inactivity timeout. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mro1337_000 · 2023-02-26 05:04 shit i wish paul casey of wakka wakka bbs was still around. he'd give him something to cry about!! i remember signing up for it and it was asking my height, weight and waist size. it was a gay bbs for hookups and i had no idea. that guy was a huge figure in the bbs community (in more ways than one), though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NuSkooler · 2023-02-26 05:17 Try out the Xibalba BBS login process and let me know. Same with the logout. There will be ActivityHub integration there soon, so that will likely require a good email at least. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nerdshowandtell · 2023-02-26 19:42 Ha, just had flash backs to getting the BBS list flyer from a local computer shop. Then getting home, dialing them up one at a time hoping to not get a busy signal and see what each had to offer. And yup, usually ended up calling a few regularly once you found the decent ones. It was a good time to be into it all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tdebbs · 2023-02-27 16:51 I agree with most of what you said. It is interesting how much dialog is going on here in the comments, some people seem to take this stuff way too seriously. I'm working on setting up a BBS and plan to make the sign-up process as easy and non-intrusive as possible. Some sysops setup a BBS and don't customize it (the blessing and curse of Synchronet/Mystic being really easy to setup now). But I'm guessing even the ones who DO put in effort are logging in and simply not thinking about re-testing the new user signup process at length. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- westiewill · 2023-02-28 02:15 Don't forget absinthe :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mro1337_000 · 2023-02-28 04:29 try my bbs telnet://bbs.eob-bbs.com:23 there's no annoying questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Trianglist · 2023-02-28 16:44 Yeah it really makes me miss the &TOTSE days, no IP address saved, just follow the rules and contribute to the discussion. Asking for my age? wtf is that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crankyoldtekhead · 2023-03-01 18:42 Heh! I had a pretty good laugh at this as, by and large, it's quite true. The comments of "this is the way it was" are only partly true - there were bunches of DOS-based power trips that were like this and were stupid power trips for sysops (did they ever know my REAL name, or age?), which created barriers for entry. Not my systems - don't know if anyone here ever saw a Citadel system. Enter an alias, a password, and you were on. No bull. As mentioned in better comments, though, there are definitely some systems where the sysop has put in the work and tried to make their systems more accommodating, the problem is having no idea where these systems are unless you happen to trip across them, and you could spend days looking at systems and maybe never trip across one. I do hope that a few people who are running BBSes or contemplating putting one up read this and take some of it to heart. The timing of your post is pretty good - I run a system that is pretty stock but I've hardly touched it in the past year. I did put time in to fixing up the new user and login routines, but I'd already planned on reviewing them again to ensure they were not too bad. Thanks for your rant, I appreciated it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crankyoldtekhead · 2023-03-01 18:44 There's no anything... you may want to review your setup. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2023-03-02 07:47 [removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mro1337_000 · 2023-03-02 07:50 it's pathetic that a lot of these threads just come out as sysops advertising their own bbs. then they say there's plenty of callers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crankyoldtekhead · 2023-03-02 17:39 Ah, it **is** the same ultra-toxic MRO that repulses people from BBS networks. Do you believe a screenshot of a windows cmd shell suggests anything about what you're presenting to the world? You have a website that is nothing but a broken image, and a telnet interface that shows two colons and hangs up on input. Good show, sparky, you really got it going on there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mro1337_000 · 2023-03-02 22:35 looks like someone is still bleeding from the behind. sorry for hurting you so. > Do you believe a screenshot of a windows cmd shell suggests anything about what you're presenting to the world? haha. you dont understand what it says, do you. > You have a website that is nothing but a broken image wallhaven stopped the hotlinking. it wasn't a broken image. > a telnet interface that shows two colons and hangs up on input. you got the password wrong. > Good show, sparky, you really got it going on there. I'm retired. all that's left is a bunch of beta male sysops who call each other's bbses and think they have users. ​ I spent over 20 years giving to the bbs community and helping people and using my own money to promote it and give people free services. retired! :D ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mro1337_000 · 2023-03-02 22:40 btw... YOU calling ME toxic is funny. pot meet kettle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TwentyOneTimesTwo · 2023-03-14 14:34 Addressing only your first point -- some BBSs come right out and say that when you create the account, the answers to the questions don't need to be real or accurate information. It's requested for the purposes of resetting passwords, etc -- an identity "verification" process, if you will. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Grouchy_Treacle_7495 · 2023-05-09 11:32 log off with escape char => quit, at any moment.